Question about full blind and blind miter dovetails

[Chris Griggs]

So I decided to try my hand at practicing some full blind miter dovetails, as I'm thinking of using them in an upcoming project. Took me a little while to figure out the prep, order of operations and layout, but I got a nice set of tails cut. Then I realized, there seems to be no way to transfer the marks.

So is it easier to transfer the marks for full blinds pins first? Do blind dovetails pretty much need to be cut pins first? I'm used to cutting tails first that I didn't even think about it until I realized I couldn't figure out how to transfer the marks.

[Mike Henderson]

This is off topic a bit but I never saw a reason to use full blind dovetails. They can't be seen and they're somewhat difficult to make, so I use some other, easier to make, type of joinery. A splined miter might be one alternative. If you don't want the spline to show, just cut the spline in the center of the board and don't take it all the way to the ends.

Mike

[Chris Griggs]

Not of topic at all. Trust me I've had that thought. I guess I like the idea that its probably about the strongest miter joint on the planet. Also, I just kinda want to learn something new. Plus its just a cool joint.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yeah, I can't think there'd be a way to transfer off of the tails at all, unless you're accurate enough you trust just marking the width and then using a bevel gauge or template or something to mark the slope.

I've been doing a fair amount of tails with mitred ends (like Roy showed on his show, or Chris Schwarz showed in PW on the "Jeffersonian" stacking box bookcases) but haven't tried anything full blind, yet. For some reason, I find the "kerfing in" process very fun.

You could always go for normal tails and then a nice thick veneer.

Even if you're not comfortable with pins first, the nice thing about the full-blind dovetails is you only have to be structurally sound - a gap here and there (particularly on end-grain surfaces) won't make the joint that much weaker, and the blind-ness will hide any faults.

If the wood is amenable to chopping away, I'd almost rather spend the time with full-blind tails (again, you don't need to fuss with skinny pins or anything like that with the hidden joinery) if I was working solely by hand - (which I am doing almost as much out of necessity than anything else) it seems easier to me to make by hand than splining a mitre joint. The added bonus is that because of where the strength comes from (the tails) you should be able to get away with a little undercutting here and there if the miter part isn't perfect - just concentrate on getting the miter to meet perfectly at the show surfaces rather than trying to get the whole thing spot on.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Joshua. I do like those mitered end dovetails those guys showed. I actually haven't tried those yet, but they seem simple enough to do with that kerfing in the Schwarz does, maybe I should give that a whirl first. Does seem like fun. Doing pins first doesn't really concern me. Yeah, I'm used to tails first, but at the end of the day its all just sawing to a line and as you said the joint is blind so as long as its mostly good to get a solid glue bond a gap here or there in dovetails themselves is of no concern - its getting that miter looking good that will matter. These are just something I was considering trying out for a simple lift lid box project I'm making for a family member. It just occurred to me though I'll need to figure out how to lay things out and cut things so that interior where the lid lifts off looks mitered to. The hardest part is the 3D visualization - looks like a job for sketchup.

One thing I did just realize too is that I can mark the widest part of the tail and the narrowest part on the side of the board and then transfer those marks across the end grain which will give me the correct slope of each tail when I connect the dots. I'll probably try that just to finish out this first practice set, but then do some more practice sets pins first. Seems much like it would be better that way.

[Ryan Baker]

I am definitely in the tails-first camp, but that is one case where you do have to do the pins first. Simple enough.

[Mel Fulks]

There's no real need for 'secret dovetails' anymore .Finding them on an old piece is a sign of the highest quality work.Charles Heywards book "Woodwork Joints" has good directions and drawings for doing them. Have to tell another story here about the cabinet maker I once worked with in an antiques and custom furniture store. The boss told Tony the old secretary desk was sold and the buyers wanted the fitted interior in the top part removed and replaced with bookshelves. When he started to do that he discovered it was full of secret compartments,behind sliding trays etc. A really elaborate and probably unique piece with secret dovetails heavily used.Tony went and told the boss who called the buyers to come back in ,take a look at all the concealed clever work, and reconsider their decision to remove it. Tony was from Lithouania ,had a heavy accent ,he talked little around the boss and certainly never tried to butt into anything concerning sales.When the boss brought the customers back Tony decided this was different. He launched into an excited ,animated presentation about the quality of the desk and why the books needed to go somewhere else. He asked no questions or took any that I can remember. I don't know whether he changed their minds or just scared them but it was the most professional and ethical example of someone caring about their work that I ever witnessed. The piece was not changed.

[david charlesworth]

Pins must be cut first. This joint is a favorite of mine and I cover it in detail in my first book of techniques.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks guys, that's helpful. Like I said, didn't even think about it until after I cut the tails, LOL. Fortunately, I have plenty of scraps to give it another go.
Whose this David Charlesworth guy that's been posting lately:p, are his methods any good;)?

Mr. Charlesworth, I take it the book you are referring to is the one titled "Furniture Making Techniques - Volume 1"

That reminds me I should probably check my copy of Robert Wearings book (though I think 6 months post move its still in a box somewhere...Arg). Wonder if these are covered in there. Once I dig it out I should really just leave it in the shop.

Thanks again gentlemen.

EDIT: Yay, found my copy of the Essential Woodworker and nope, full blind DTs not in there. Great book though.. forgot how much good stuff was in there.

[Bruce Haugen]

Take a look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwzeONtOAFg), part two of a six part series, starting at 4:22. Unfortunately, they don't show how the corresponding tails are marked, but it is a terrific series.

[Zach Dillinger]

Full blind dovetails are a great joint. You get the strength of the dovetails without having to look at the dovetails, which is a win-win.

[David Weaver]

Full blind dovetails are a great joint. You get the strength of the dovetails without having to look at the dovetails, which is a win-win.

Ditto that. I would much rather have the miter on a showing joint than a whole bunch of endgrain staring me in the face. Gross.

[Chris Griggs]

Ah Zach, you're such a prude. There's nothing wrong with showing a little bit of tail from time to time. Though I agree, that in general today tail is exposed to much too often, and over-emphasized as the end all be of woodworking.

Seriously though, I still often like being able to see the joinery. There are some beautiful pieces in the book Furniture in the Southern Style where the dovetails aren't hidden - they are not emphasized either though, and are just sorta part of the piece which I guess is what makes me like those pieces. I guess that's why I often like Shaker stuff too - the joinery is there but its not in your face. Obviously, its all about what fits the piece and what is period/place/style appropriate if you're doing reproduction.

All that said, there have been a number of times when I would much rather look at a miter, which is why I want to learn this joint. Actually, your and Dave's comments in the discussion of the LN/Becksvoort toolchest last week is part of what reminded me that this is a joint I've been wanting to learn and motivated me to learn it now.

[David Weaver]

I really never feel like I want to build furniture, but I almost want to build something with a case just to learn it, too.

I've never seriously looked at making it, though - what is the general method for cutting the miter above the pins and tails on a long mitered joint? Is it planed off flush to a jig on the shorter ones? Presume the gap on the miter needs to be tidy, but the strength of the joint below it is dictated by the dovetails?

I'd like to have a look at the plane that the japanese craftsman was using in the video where he quickly made mitered dovetail joints for the case he was making.

[Christian Thompson]

I've been working on these as well. There is also a pretty detailed description in Ian Kirby's book "The Complete Dovetail". Just to confirm what others are saying, he likes to do tails first for every other dovetail, but says you have to use pins first for this one.

I also agree that there may be no need for this joint, but there is also not really a need to prep stock with handplanes anymore but we do it anyway :-). I am working on a tea caddy for my mom and wanted to use full blind dovetails. After stalling the project for a few weeks and cutting a bunch of very mediocre practice joints, I've decided to just go back to through dovetails for this project. Hopefully once I get some more practice I'll use them for something else. It seems like these are harder because you have to be very precise with not only the pins and tails, but also with the depth of the rabbets in order to get everything to close up tightly.

[Zach Dillinger]

Ah Zach, you're such a prude. There's nothing wrong with showing a little bit of tail from time to time. Though I agree, that in general today tail is exposed to much too often, and over-emphasized as the end all be of woodworking.

Seriously though, I still often like being able to see the joinery. There are some beautiful pieces in the book Furniture in the Southern Style where the dovetails aren't hidden - they are not emphasized either though, and are just sorta part of the piece which I guess is what makes me like those pieces. I guess that's why I often like Shaker stuff too - the joinery is there but its not in your face. Obviously, its all about what fits the piece and what is period/place/style appropriate if you're doing reproduction.

All that said, there have been a number of times when I would much rather look at a miter, which is why I want to learn this joint. Actually, your and Dave's comments in the discussion of the LN/Becksvoort toolchest last week is part of what reminded me that this is a joint I've been wanting to learn and motivated me to learn it now.

I'm no prude, I just hate the look of end grain :). The men who made the best furniture took great pains to hide dovetails under moldings, additional pieces of casework (think secretaries) or behind miters and veneer. I'm really only interested in the furniture of certain eras / locations and the South isn't one of them, so I can't speak to what they did. I guess I'm simply not impressed by dovetails, and don't think that the desire to show "craftsmanship" with dovetails justifies the inclusion of ugly end grain on what otherwise would be a lovely piece of work. But I'm weird like that.

We can eradicate the evil of exposed end grain (EEG) as an 'aesthetic' statement in our lifetimes!

[Chris Griggs]

I found a few brief tutorials last night on the web. This one from Roy is very brief but actually quite informative. http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/howto/dovetailbox.html

[jamie shard]

Pins must be cut first. This joint is a favorite of mine and I cover it in detail in my first book of techniques.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth


David's book really does provide a good description of blind dovetail miters. Yes it's Vol 1.

[Chris Griggs]

I guess I'm simply not impressed by dovetails, and don't think that the desire to show "craftsmanship" with dovetails justifies the inclusion of ugly end grain on what otherwise would be a lovely piece of work.


Can't argue with that. Certainly there is not a tail to be seen on the huge Philadelphia secretary that sits behind glass in my office building. I get to walk by it every time I go to the vending machine - been meaning to post a pic of it one of these days.

For me though it has everything to do with what fits with the style/taste of the piece. Honestly, I don't have enough work under my belt to say I like to work in this style or that style - I'm still learning what I like, and I build things based on what looks fun or challenging to build or useful or just happens to look nice to my eye at that point-in-time.

From what little I know about you it seems like you are into historical reproductions of very high society furniture (which FWIW I think is awesome). I sincerely appreciate and like your anachronistic influence and efforts to bring down the over hyping of visible dovetails. You've certainly rubbed off on me a good deal, and I very much want to learn the how to make a rock solid hidden mitered dovetail. Few things looks better than a perfect miter.

I guess I just fall somewhere in the middle - often I like the look, but fully agree that equally as often the desire to show "craftsmanship" unnecessarily overpowers aesthetics.

[Bruce Haugen]

I

I'd like to have a look at the plane that the japanese craftsman was using in the video where he quickly made mitered dovetail joints for the case he was making.

Me, too. It appears to be some sort of skewed rabbet with an adjustable fence, but it goes by so quickly that I can't make out the fence adjustment business. I just can't imagine doing what he did with my Stanley 45, nicker or no nicker :D

[Zach Dillinger]

I guess I just fall somewhere in the middle - often I like the look, but fully agree that equally as often the desire to show "craftsmanship" unnecessarily overpowers aesthetics.

Well said. I certainly don't mean to imply that my (admittedly anachronistic, bordering on Luddite) way is the right way for everybody. I just think there aren't enough people questioning the status quo.

[Chris Griggs]

Well said. I certainly don't mean to imply that my (admittedly anachronistic, bordering on Luddite) way is the right way for everybody. I just think there aren't enough people questioning the status quo.

Its funny you say that, because most of us here are anachronistic and bordering on Luddite (at least in terms of our woodworking). Perhaps some are just a little more Ludditious (did I make up a new word?) then others. You should do a piece on blind dovetails on your blog (or PWW/FWW). I'm not a regular visitor of your blog, but I have checked it out form time to time and you write good stuff.


EDIT: Ha I just looked at your blog and see that this thread has already prompted a post on the topic. How bout a tutorial? Either way, I think I'll order DC's book he mentioned - I imagine I will quite like having it as a reference.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'll see what I can do about whipping something up.

[Mel Fulks]

As to the necessity of them,my friends opinion was they came in as a defining feature of "fine furniture",and disappeared with the advent of easy ways to fake them....making the client want to see dovetails. Anyone deciding to use mitred dovetails might want to shoot plenty of photos along the way. Maybe right now someone is in an antique store ,looking a piece with 'secret dovetails' and deciding they don't want it because "it's just mitred and splined".

[Mike Henderson]

I think those dovetails are covered in Ian Kirby's book on dovetails (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dovetail-Handmade-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354815514&sr=1-1&keywords=dovetails). I haven't looked at his book in a long time but it seems that I remember that he covered it.

Mike

[Chris Griggs]

I think those dovetails are covered in Ian Kirby's book on dovetails (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dovetail-Handmade-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354815514&sr=1-1&keywords=dovetails). I haven't looked at his book in a long time but it seems that I remember that he covered it.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I just checked out the "look inside view" on Amazon. Just from looking at the TOC it seems like a very good book. Things appear to be very well broken down for blind dovetails, both the mitered and the non miter kind. Definitely looks like a winner.

[David Weaver]

Now, the question is what do you add to it to get it to free shipping?

[brian c miller]

This is a very good book on how to... even for someone starting it out walks through how to layout and cut just about any dovetail you can think of...

He recommends one of these in the book: Japanese Mitre Square (http://www.amazon.com/Shinwa-62103-Japanese-Mitre-Square/dp/B0012XU0J0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354828799&sr=8-1&keywords=japanese+mitre) by Robert Larson
That should be enough for free shipping


I think those dovetails are covered in Ian Kirby's book on dovetails (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dovetail-Handmade-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354815514&sr=1-1&keywords=dovetails). I haven't looked at his book in a long time but it seems that I remember that he covered it.

Mike

[David Weaver]

Works for me. Thanks!

[Chris Griggs]

Book and mitre square together are $26.19 shipped.... PERFECT!

[Jack Curtis]

Now, the question is what do you add to it to get it to free shipping?

Finding something else to buy on Amazon is never a problem, David; but Prime is a very good deal, especially since it covers shipping on all Prime eligible items, such as av equipment, as well as scads of free tv/movies.

[brian c miller]

I find that square pretty handt fot mitres b/c of the way it allows you to scribe arounf the corner.

[David Weaver]

Finding something else to buy on Amazon is never a problem, David; but Prime is a very good deal, especially since it covers shipping on all Prime eligible items, such as av equipment, as well as scads of free tv/movies.

You're right, Jack. Every year, my sister offers to get us a prime membership for Christmas, and as ridiculous as it sounds, we decline because I'm afraid it will enable me. But I think this coming year, we're going to get it, anyway. It makes more sense than searching around to add things to the basket. Fortunately in this case, someone had a good suggestion that fit right in.

[Chris Griggs]

Just got around to ordering mine. That little mitre square looks very very handy, I'm pretty pyched about it and the Ian Kirby book, been wanting to move beyond plain old through and half blind dovetails for a little while now (though I bet it has great advice for those too)

However, I'm even more excited that my thread inspired Dave, who has on a number of occasions said he is really only interest in building tools, to want to build a piece of furniture. That's not something you see everyday.

What kinda case you gonna build Dave? I've actually had in mind to build one of the cases from the Furniture in the Southern Style book I mentioned earlier but use miter dovetails in it instead of through, half blind, or non mitered full blind (all of which appear on different projects in that book) The original pieces look great (Its a great book) but there are a few that I think the mitered case would look nice on.

[David Weaver]

Not sure yet, I have a bookcase and a set of kitchen cabinets that I have to make first, so it will be a while. Something about the size of a single wall cabinet would be nice. Maybe like a jewelry cabinet. I'd still rather build tools, but there's nothing that I really need.

[Chris Griggs]

Not sure yet, I have a bookcase and a set of kitchen cabinets that I have to make first, so it will be a while. Something about the size of a single wall cabinet would be nice. Maybe like a jewelry cabinet. I'd still rather build tools, but there's nothing that I really need.

Little cabinets - jewelry, display, or other wise are always fun to make. They don't take a lot of material, and thus don't require a ton of time to prep the stock. They provide a lot opportunities to work on various types of fun joinery, they can be completed pretty quickly if the overall design is kept simple, and its easy to find them a home when you finish. I've been wanting to build another one lately, but have zero use for one (though I'm sure I could find it a home).

The tool building is very fun and addictive. I just added another tool to my "want to build list". Would like to build a second larger turning saw. The Gramercy design is great, but I find it to be more suited for small intricate curves than the larger sweeping curves one might put in a leg or on the bottom of a bookcase. I'm thinking about getting another set of the Gramercy pins and one of those 14" long 3/8" (or maybe its 5/16, I forget) impulse hardened japanese turbo cut blades to make a bow saw for larger curves in thicker stock. Fortunately bow saws are pretty easy to make so maybe I'll try to get to that before I get to the next round of backsaws.

[Mike Cogswell]

Pins must be cut first. This joint is a favorite of mine and I cover it in detail in my first book of techniques.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

Nice to see you here! Is your second book currently out of print? Both Amazon and Lie-Nielsen have Vol 1, but neither has Vol 2.

[Ryan Baker]

I'd also like to take a quick timeout to say that it's nice to see David Charlesworth posting here lately. David, please hang around and post some more!

[david charlesworth]

Mike,

I have plenty volume 2 ;-)# There may be a delay in supply due to reprinting. I will try to find out.

Best wishes,
David

[David Weaver]

I'm no prude, I just hate the look of end grain :). The men who made the best furniture took great pains to hide dovetails under moldings, additional pieces of casework (think secretaries) or behind miters and veneer. I'm really only interested in the furniture of certain eras / locations and the South isn't one of them, so I can't speak to what they did. I guess I'm simply not impressed by dovetails, and don't think that the desire to show "craftsmanship" with dovetails justifies the inclusion of ugly end grain on what otherwise would be a lovely piece of work. But I'm weird like that.

We can eradicate the evil of exposed end grain (EEG) as an 'aesthetic' statement in our lifetimes!

In george's video at 4:30

"in fine furniture, one seldom wants to see such joints"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48FezBoPWg

Perfect.

[Chris Griggs]

In george's video at 4:30

"in fine furniture, one seldom wants to see such joints"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48FezBoPWg

Perfect.

That's fantastic!

[Jack Curtis]

In george's video at 4:30

"in fine furniture, one seldom wants to see such joints"...

Perfect.

That's been the approach of all Japanese joinery, forever. In fact, they're quite offended by things like revealed dovetails and the like. I think if we westerners paid more attention when we looked at furniture, we'd have come to the same conclusion.

[David Weaver]

At some point, I think we did. We just used a different method sometimes to cover the endgrain - mouldings instead of joints. I like either one.

When I first started, I thought dovetails were interesting looking, but that the ones that are router bit sized look like mass produced stuff. After a year or so of woodworking, it occurs to someone that you don't see the dovetails on fine furniture or what's purported to be fine furniture until it was cheapened into stuff around 1900 or so, where they are intentionally exposed (i'm not expert on greene and greene type stuff, so if that's not the right date....). And seeing rows and rows of exposed dovetails that have been made to look like show surfaces then becomes amateurish...at least to me.

I have built furniture...I may never build a "nice" piece of furniture like a bombe, but I personally will never build a large case that has dovetails staring at me.

[Mel Fulks]

We're all used to seeing fine furniture in museum collections and pieces made by members here with precisely cut dovetails. The more country 18th century pieces are a different deal,some of those have dovetails so crude they look like they were used because "nails are expensive".

[Frank Drew]

I agree that dovetails for show have gotten a bit overdone, even when they're not necessarily the best, or even the correct joint for the application, but end grain itself needn't be considered unattractive; think of all the thousands and thousands of wonderful dining and other tables, dressers and sideboards, etc. with well-sanded and finished end grain showing.

The secret miter dovetail joint was often used for plinths and bases, such as you might find in museums and fancy stores -- the miters for appearance and the dovetails for strength.

[Chris Griggs]

I spent a good bit of time today and yesterday practicing secret miter dovetails. As it turn out, when I'm the person cutting the miter dovetails, the joint actually looks a lot worse than a bit of exposed endgrain. These things are going to take some serious practice to get right!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

What went wrong, Chris? If you can get dovetails right, it seems like it's mostly a matter of making sure the mitre bottoms out before the tails bottom out, and that the mitre closes tightly at it's exposed surfaces. Seems like with some analyzing you could get things to work out.

There's always veneer . . .

[Chris Griggs]

Getting the dovetails to fit was fine (and I kinda liked cutting pins first, gasp!!!), but getting all the miters to close is tough. This weekend is really the first time I've tried them so I'm not surprised I haven't nailed them yet. Yes, it going to take some analyzing. You just need to be very careful and accurate through a lot of steps. I'll get them with a bit more practice. I think for the current project (which is a small silly project), I may work to get non mitered full blind/double lap dovetails right (those are comparably easy), then keep working on the mitered ones for future projects.

[Zach Dillinger]

In george's video at 4:30

"in fine furniture, one seldom wants to see such joints"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48FezBoPWg

Perfect.

Excellent link, thank you. I've seen that before, but its been a while. Say, I wonder if those videos are legal...

[Zach Dillinger]

We're all used to seeing fine furniture in museum collections and pieces made by members here with precisely cut dovetails. The more country 18th century pieces are a different deal,some of those have dovetails so crude they look like they were used because "nails are expensive".

The dovetails you can see are almost universally finely cut. Drawers and the like. But we'll never know about the dovetails that you can't.

[Christian Thompson]

Getting the dovetails to fit was fine (and I kinda liked cutting pins first, gasp!!!), but getting all the miters to close is tough. This weekend is really the first time I've tried them so I'm not surprised I haven't nailed them yet. Yes, it going to take some analyzing. You just need to be very careful and accurate through a lot of steps. I'll get them with a bit more practice. I think for the current project (which is a small silly project), I may work to get non mitered full blind/double lap dovetails right (those are comparably easy), then keep working on the mitered ones for future projects.

This has been my experience as well. With through dovetails you only have to get a tight fit on 3 surfaces, where as with the blind mitered dovetails you have 6 surfaces (5 on the dovetails and then the miter). My practice secret miter joints have been either loose or don't close up.

[jamie shard]

Excellent link, thank you.


I agree, I really liked how George cut the dovetails freehand on the angled corner of the spinette case. No jigs or guides, just eyeballing the angle and chopping!

[David Weaver]

I'm a big fan of the veneer saw, but as we've had the discussion on here before of how to cut veneer with one person by hand, it's deadly apparent why that's a two man job. Both watching a line from each side and both making sure the saw doesn't wander.

Who on here thinks they might be able to get their wife to help them on a veneer saw?

Not me, I guess I won't sell the bandsaw unless i'm about to go broke.

(maybe it could be done with one person if a suitable mirror on the other side of the cut?).

[David Weaver]

If you want to get a rise out of george, ask him what they did with the violins that turned out to be duds...after they sold off the good ones. :)

[Mel Fulks]

David, I think he said they use them in those " angry guy" movie scenes. Works for guitars,too.(See that cultural milestone ANIMAL HOUSE....)

[Zach Dillinger]

David, I think he said they use them in those " angry guy" movie scenes. Works for guitars,too.(See that cultural milestone ANIMAL HOUSE....)

What is the violin equivalent of "I gave my love a cherry, that had no stone"?

[David Weaver]

I think he sends his dud guitars to the Honkey Tonk Man. I don't know how many on here will get that.....

I'm terrible with movie references, even though I've seen animal house at least four times.

I only remember the dumbest of dumb movies...like Step Brothers and Napoleon Dynamite.

[Jason Coen]

I bet I can throw a violin over them mountains.

[Jack Curtis]

I'm not all that sure that Napoleon Dynamite is a dumb move. Might be...

[Chris Griggs]

Just got my book and little miter square. The miter square is nicer than I thought - its made from a nice heavy piece of stainless steel. The book is very detailed, but also broken down into step by step instructions. The layout is very broken down which is nice because that's a big part of figuring to how to do these blind dovetails correctly - he even makes a point of stating which faces to mark everything from ans in one instance explains why he doesn't mark from the reference face and why its ok. The book was a good recommendation - and will be very helpful in learning double lap and miter dovetails. Interestingly, he miters the corners of his not mitered double lap dovetails so the ends sorta have a miter and then just a bit of rabbet that overhangs the end grain of the pin board. I feel like when I've seen full blind double lap dovetails in the past, the little miter isn't always on the corner - its a nice touch.

[jamie shard]

The book is very detailed, but also broken down into step by step instructions. The layout is very broken down...

It's true, I'm always thankful for the level of detail David Charlesworth provides. One can always choose to do less detailed implementation, but he gives you the all the info for doing very fine work.

[Chris Griggs]

It's true, I'm always thankful for the level of detail David Charlesworth provides. One can always choose to do less detailed implementation, but he gives you the all the info for doing very fine work.

Actually, I ended up going with the Ian Kirby one - I should probably order the DC one too, just to see a possible different approach... Plus his has multiple types of things in it that may be useful. Both appeared to be very good.

[Zach Dillinger]

A while back, in this thread, I was asked for a quickie demonstration on how I cut full-blind dovetails. Well, I've finally had time to shoot some decent photos. Here you go. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/secret-dovetails-for-the-rest-of-us

[Chris Griggs]

Nice, can't wait to read it. oooh la-la.... and its on PPW's site... good for you Zach. I haven't mastered the mitered ones yet but I got a pretty good handle on the double lap variety....

Thanks for putting this together, I will read it thoroughly when i get home tonight.

[Zach Dillinger]

Nice, can't wait to read it. oooh la-la.... and its on PPW's site... good for you Zach. I haven't mastered the mitered ones yet but I got a pretty good handle on the double lap variety....

Thanks for putting this together, I will read it thoroughly when i get home tonight.

I hope you find it helpful. It was pretty much written for you, since you're the one who asked for it!

[Chris Griggs]

I hope you find it helpful. It was pretty much written for you, since you're the one who asked for it!

It is very helpful indeed! Thank you kindly for writing it good sir. Honestly most of it I got from Ian Kirby's book already, BUT some of the little notes you mention (like how you do the final paring of the miter are very good to know.

One thing I noticed that both you and Kirby mention is the need to have perfectly thicknessed boards. I've actually been experimenting with how to get results with these and double laps with out perfectly thicknessed boards. Technically as long as you have a good miter square and you mark EVERYTHING from the inside I think you can get away with some variation in thickness. You will still get a good miter but if one of your boards is thicker you'll need to plane the outside down after the joint is assembled until both miters meet at the top and expose no end grain. Not sure if that makes sense, but its something I had been thinking through a lot as I have been practicing these. In the spirit of period furniture making (okay its just laziness) I try to avoid precise thicknessing whenever possible.

[Zach Dillinger]

I, too, avoid precise thicknessing. Perhaps I should clarify. The boards don't have to be micrometer precise. I simply meant that you can't really join a 5/8"ish board to a 3/4"ish board with this method and expect it to look right. If you take that much off, in the manner you describe, you'll have one funky looking joint. A 1/32nd or even a scant 1/16, sure, no problem. But once you get much over that difference, you'll have a noticeable bevel to the joint, or you'll just have to plane down the whole outside to get it to look right.

[Chris Griggs]

I, too, avoid precise thicknessing. Perhaps I should clarify. The boards don't have to be micrometer precise. I simply meant that you can't really join a 5/8"ish board to a 3/4"ish board with this method and expect it to look right. If you take that much off, in the manner you describe, you'll have one funky looking joint. A 1/32nd or even a scant 1/16, sure, no problem. But once you get much over that difference, you'll have a noticeable bevel to the joint, or you'll just have to plane down the whole outside to get it to look right.

Ok I see. You're right, you didn't say "precise thicknessing". Makes perfect sense...

Because of how Kirby marks his out he makes a point of stating the need for precisly thickness boards for this joint (though not for others). He marks the rabbet from the outside, presumably so everything is flush perfect when he finishes, but I think its just better to mark from the inside and do a little cleanup after.

Thanks for clarifying!

[McKay Sleight]

There is a good description of the double blind dovetail in Frank Klause's book. I just made the DBDT and made the tails first. The marking went fine but I was challenged with making the miter tight. As far as using a spline in place of this joint, I would seriously doubt that the spline could be anywhere near as strong as a DT.

[Jack Curtis]

A while back, in this thread, I was asked for a quickie demonstration on how I cut full-blind dovetails. Well, I've finally had time to shoot some decent photos. Here you go. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/secret-dovetails-for-the-rest-of-us

Zach, I took the liberty of lightening up one of your photos so I could see the parts better. Here it is:

252677

[Zach Dillinger]

Thanks for that, Jack. I lost the light while shooting. Had to use the flash for the last photo, but I wasn't too happy about it. Cheers!