Sawbench-Sawhorse?

[Mike Holbrook]

So I am having great fun with my collection of vintage hand saws. Now I want a better place to use them than my workbench vises.

I have been studying sawhorse designs and I am down to Jim Tolpin's or Herman's designs as the most versatile and useful. I am starting to wonder about sawhorses though. I am getting to be a little older and I am a little worried about sawing kneeling on a bench. I wonder if sawing standing is a good option?

Are there good designs for sawing by hand with sawhorses too, most of what I read and find specific designs for are sawbenches?

[Gordon Eyre]

I am 78 and use this saw bench I built all the time. It works great. The design is Chris Schwartz and is very stable. The height is perfect for me as designed but you could lengthen or shorten the legs depending on how tall you are. The problem with using sawhorses is that they are too tall to kneel on effectively and the narrow top does not work well.

http://www.pbase.com/greyflash/image/140073944/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/greyflash/image/140073946/original.jpg

[Paul Saffold]

I made a similar design by Schwarz. On mine the top extends 4 1/2 " past the legs. The bench is tippy if you have weight only on that part of the top. If I was making this design again I would have the legs at or near the end of the top. Or make one like Herman's. But I'm only 63 and can't speak for old folks.:)
Paul

[Chuck Nickerson]

Mike - if you saw standing, you're not using your body weight to hold the wood and steady the work surface. The then-required clamping can become a circus.

If your concern is your knees (as was mine), size your sawbench while wearing a good knee pad.

If your concern is your back, it's time for someone to design a Moxon-like device that support x-cutting and ripping.

[Mike Siemsen]

I posted an article on my blog about making sawhorse/sawbenches. This style of sawhorse has been around a long time.http://schoolofwood.com/node/64 As to the question of bending over and sawing or standing up, I prefer bending over the sawhorse as I believe I have more power that way. If you get up too high you are sawing with just your arms, people do it and it does work, just holdfast your material to your bench edge. You could also try sitting down on the boards and sawing.
Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Here is my saw table - bench - horse project:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?146777-Saw-Table-Project

The leg angles can be changed to any desired. They can be splayed up to about 15º or they can be perpendicular.

One thing no matter what angle is used, the feet should not extend past the top edge at the ends. They can be a tripping hazard.

If you are making two and you want them to stack there is a simple trick. Make a big one with the top wider than the smaller one. The smaller one can be made shorter to fit in the space between the legs of the larger bench. A lot of these have been made for use around my shop and property. Some are standard everyday saw horses. The edges on the ones I made for stacking are usually beveled, at least on the smaller one of a set.

247154

Two standard horses can be seen through the cabinet stacked one on the other. It is easy to carry them in one hand when they stack like this.

The bench behind the bucking horse now has a bird's mouth cut at one end for ripping. Any one of mine is likely to get pulled up to the bench and used as a seat when needed. With few exceptions mine are pretty much all the same height. For ripping long boards, it is handy to use three horses.

Mine are made a little taller than needed. Then test cuts are made while standing on pieces of wood. By changing the shimming under my feet, the optimal height can be found for the types of wood most often used in my shop. Once the wood shims under the feet lifts me to the desired height, the thickness is used up against the legs to mark off a cut line. This is then sawn off and any clean up and chamfering the bottoms is done with a block plane.

One of mine has a hole for a holdfast. It wouldn't be hard to make a removable fence along one edge to hold the work piece. Often times one of my bench hooks also gets put into action on top of one of the saw benches.

A very versatile aid in the shop.

jtk

[Jamie Bacon]

That's a good looking saw bench Gordon. TOO good looking. Hope it's got some battle scars by now. :)

[Gordon Eyre]

That's a good looking saw bench Gordon. TOO good looking. Hope it's got some battle scars by now. :)

Thanks Jamie and yes it does have a couple of battle scars but still looks nice.

[Jim Matthews]

I copied Acharya Kumarswami's design (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?176915-Saw-bench-design-to-share) (he's a regular on the turning forum).

It features a center channel for smaller rip cuts, and top clamping to hold things in place.
Paired with a basic sawbench (as shown above or on Popular Woodoworking), I can rip much longer boards.

This can be done with hold fasts, but I used a pair of older Record adjustable clamps.
I made mine with a center board that is press fit, and easily removed for smaller boards
that require a rip cut near the middle.

[Stanley Covington]

A good sawbench is so useful. Not only does it save the back (compared to working of Japanese-style shorty sawhorses) but they give you more power and control than compared to sawing boards at workbench height. Besides, when combined with another sawhorse, or ladder or other support the same height, they let you deal with long boards at a convenient height almost anywhere.

The splayed-leg style sawhorse is indeed traditional, reliable and cheap to make, and are perfect for circular saws, but for ripping boards with a handsaw, the legs simply get in the way. No way around it. Acharya's design is excellent, but perhaps a bit bulky? I have made several styles of sawhorses for myself and friends over the years, and have settled on a trestle style as the best balance of weight, stability, portability and sawblade clearance. A trestle secured with wedges breaks down nicely for transporting to a jobsite (try that with a traditional sawhorse!) and gives one lots of area to use holdowns, dogs and clamps. The key to stability is to make the "foot" at each vertical support (just a board parallel with the ground) just a bit wider than the top. Your saw blade might nick the tips of the feet now and again, but they won't get in the way enough to cause problems. I can send pictures if you are interested.

Stan

[Jack Curtis]

Stan, I'd love to see a photo or two.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great information! Many years ago a friend and I did a project together, resulting in four of the supports Mike Siemsen links us to. That first set I made was designed more at "horse" height though. They finally wore out in the last year. The problem I have with Chris's designs is they look a little tippy to me and I have read that some who have built them found this to be the case.

I found a design very similar to the one Acharya made and was about to settle on it until I bought a copy of Jim Tolpin's " The New Traditional Woodworker" and found the sawbench Jim designed. Jim's benches are designed as a set to be used as a set. One saws between the benches for rip cuts, as opposed to in a notch or gap in the top of one bench. Jim's benches legs are straight on one side and angled on the other. So the question is, if using two heads is better than one are two benches? Herman seems to take a little different approach building a more classic wider bench, width of users hips, and just sawing on either side. Toplin and Herman's designs seem the most stable to me. Stanley's version sounds like an interesting variation on Herman or Acharya's designs, maybe we will get to see pictures.

[Gordon Eyre]

The problem I have with Chris's designs is they look a little tippy to me and I have read that some who have built them found this to be the case.

I have no skin in the game as to what anyone picks for the design of their saw bench so please take my comments in the vein they are given. It is my opinion that anyone who has built the Chris Schwarz designed saw bench to the design specs would find that the bench is not tippy. I can say that after several months of use. Also if you are ripping into the notch it works great. If you like ripping to the side of the bench and use just a modicum of care as to how you cant the board your saw will not hit the legs. The legs have a fairly narrow splay and so by canting the board at a slight angle you will not hit the front leg with your saw. Also, the height of the bench is perfect (for me) to be at the proper angle to get the maximum power and ease in using the saw. Obviously if you are ripping long heavy boards two saw benches would work better than one. The other thing I like about the Chris Schwarz designed saw bench is the craftsmanship that is inherent in the build of such a bench. If you look closely at the two images I posted above you will see what I mean.

By the way, I am 6'1'' and 225 lbs and I just went out to my shop and stood on the end of my bench and it did not tip.

[Jim Koepke]

Sawing rip cuts between a pair of saw benches is my preferred method. That doesn't mean sawing to the side isn't a way that works better. Sometimes on a long piece I will sit atop the work while moving it forward with back side movements.

The splayed legs also work well for me in other situations where the saw bench is used for a platform to stand on while working in our greenhouse or on other projects.

Many of my helpers are made for more than just being used in the wood shop.

jtk

[Jim Neeley]

Many of my helpers are made for more than just being used in the wood shop.

jtk

"Honey, would you please come here and hold the end of the board... before you fix dinner, take out the trash and do the laundry?" :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, I'd love to see a photo or two.

Jack:

I should be able to get a pic or two tomorrow to post.

Cheers.

Stan

[Mark Dorman]

I also like the low height better than sawing at bench height. I built my saw bench similar to Gordan's but no shelf and I made an inch wide slot down the middle for ripping narrow pieces where I want support on both sides of the cut. Seems easier to hold than when I'm on the side of the saw bench.247255

[Mike Holbrook]

Gordon, good to know that you do not find Chris's design "tippy". Tippy probably wasn't a good choice of words in the first place. I am doing my saw bench project as a primer for my workbench project. I have Ash & Hickory I will use to make them and like Gordon I am interested in building something with solid joinery as opposed to simply screwing pieces together, not that there is anything wrong with screw or pocket hole joinery.

As others have mentioned I envision using my sawbench for more than sawing. My workbench project will use Bob Lang's 21st Century Workbench design, modified to accommodate a leg vise with Benchcrafted hardware and Lee Valley's new Quick-Release Sliding Tail Vise. One of the challenges in building a top for such a workbench is getting the pieces for the top glued up accurately. Bob used a set of short bench/tables and a plywood jig to glue his pieces together. I may use the sawbenches I will make. I plan for my sawbenches to double as work support for cabinet and furniture projects. I think Tolpin's or Herman's sawbench designs may serve better in this secondary duty, which is what I was actually thinking about with the "tippy" comment.

My "other" saw is a Laguna LT14 SUV, recently purchased. This saw needs a work support/feeding system as well. I am thinking about building a second set of work support/sawhorses for this saw. My sawbenches would serve as my low work support system and the second set would serve as my high system. The SUV's table is 35" off the ground, probably a reasonable height for a higher set of work supports.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Mark - I really like your slot idea. Ripping short boards is the main weakness (for me) of the design Chris has popularized.
I put low shelves on both my sawbenches, hinging the shelf on the larger bench so they'd still stack.

[Jack Curtis]

... and Lee Valley's new Quick-Release Sliding Tail Vise....

Mike, do you happen to know how deep the wooden part of the tail vise can be with the LV hardware? Or, is there any problem going to 3"X3" with it?

[Stanley Covington]

Jack:

I should be able to get a pic or two tomorrow to post.

Stan

I have attached a couple of pics.

This is the only sawbench I brought to Japan this time. It is the fanciest one I have made, and the heaviest by far, and made of Honduras Mahogany (remember when HM was cheap and plentiful?) and was recently repainted with milkpaint so it could do double duty as a bench in the house's genkan for removing/putting on shoes (Japanese house/Japanese wife/no shoes inside) despite the sawmarks.

The top is stiffened and kept flat by unglued sliding dovetail battens secured with a dowel at midpoint. You might be able to get by without these, but belt and suspenders.

The wedged spreader connects the legs very rigidly. If you decide to make one, don't skimp on this; make it wide and thick. Two white oak rectangular cross-section pins are glued into the top edge of each leg which in turn fit into slightly longer mortises cut into the underside of the sawbench top to keep the legs from twisting. These four pins are absolutely essential.

Two similar pins are glued into mortises at the top edge of the spreader and fit into mortises in the sawbench top to handle shear forces. A singe 5/16" (?) flathead screw attaches the slightly sprung top via a brass insert in the spreader.

The feet are made of ipe, and attached to the rabbeted ends of the legs with a dowel at midpoint (no glue).

The first ones I made were out of frustration with traditional American and Japanese splayed-leg sawhorses. They were of Doug Fir and a bit smaller. I made a very lightweight one for a friend out of sugarpine. Almost any material will work. They are not as stable (against overturning) as traditional splayed-leg sawhorses with narrow tops, but they are plenty stable, rack and wiggle much much less (I hate a work surface that squirms), and have a smaller footprint than traditional sawhorses; three can be stacked on top of each other in less space. And they break down quickly for transport in a stuffed workvan taking up much less space. Then they fit nicely onto a single dolly along with tools for taking up the elevator to the day's jobsite.

The wider top is much more useful for sawing and clamping and mortising materials of any length or width. This one does not have dogholes, but clamps can be used at all all four edges. Most importantly, the legs are out of the way so I can saw on all four edges unobstructed.

On top of it all, it makes a great bench for putting on my shoes!

Stan

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Stanley - I love that bench!

Jack - There was a post over at galoototron (http://www.galoototron.com/2012/07/17/workbench-v2-tail-vise/) this summer where Brian installed a LV tail vise in a shorter, Roubo-style bench. He bent the installation "rules" a bit, but looks like he's working with a thick chop (in both directions) with no issue.

[Jack Curtis]

Stan, beautiful bench; but how do you hold the work? The finish screams that even if braced with your body, the work will squirm away. :)

Joshua, many thanks for galoototron, just the confirmation I was looking for.

[Mike Holbrook]

The Veritas Quick-Release Sliding Tail Vise comes with a plate which is used to attach it to the bottom of any size top you want. The installation directions suggest making the jaw at least 3" thicker than the top. The additional 3" is the surface the mechanism that runs the vise attaches to. The additional room provides plenty of mounting surface for the connecting bolts, leaving room for dog holes on the top and side.

I like having dog holes on the side as well as the top of the bench, which this vise provides for.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, beautiful bench; but how do you hold the work? The finish screams that even if braced with your body, the work will squirm away. :)

I don't know about beautiful. The usual methods apply for holding things down: knee pressure; curses; and Jorgenson deep-throat hand screws (bar clamps). I drilled dogholes in my other more utilitarian sawbenches of similar design, but bar clamps are a bit quicker and more flexible than hold downs it seems, especially since I can get at the workpiece from any side.

The milkpaint finish is very non-slip. No wax or anything slippery. Less slippery/slidey than plain wood even.

Stan

[Jack Curtis]

I never would have guessed the finish is milk paint. Kudos.

[Niels Cosman]

For what it's worth here's my sawbench, which actually live's in my apartment now and comes in handy for all sorts of random tasks and chores for which it was never intended. I built it out of dimensional lumber scrap and it has served me very well. For being a fairly big bench, it weights very little. I still have to make a replacement for the shop. When I do, I'll make this one a bit more robust I am going to make the top out of something harder and heavier (oak or ash) so I can add some dog holes all over. I also plan on adding a vertical face to the "straight" end for clamping boards ala the hermann/estonian bench.
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[Mike Holbrook]

Nice Niels!
Reminds me a little of the 21st Century Workbench I am going to build. Maybe I can use some of the same construction techniques for my sawbenches.

Herman saws on the side of his bench, like Tolpin sometimes does. If I have two benches I can also saw between the two like Tolpin, although Herman's bench is designed to be the width of the users hips, for working while seated, which makes it a wider bench than Tolpin's. Herman uses his "sawbench" for much more than sawing though. He sits on the bench: for chisel work, sawing through end grain... . Sawing to the side of the bench seems logical to me, as our arms tend to hang on the sides of our bodies as opposed to the center. I can see that there could be an issue with small boards, needing support on either side for stability while sawing. The workbench I will build will have removable trays which will give me a place to saw on the workbench, maybe not the best sawing position for large boards but for small boards and shorter saws?