Follansbee videos and working green oak?

[Chris Griggs]

Sandy knocked down a medium sized oak (red oak I think) at my inlaws house. My FIL wants to see about getting it quarter sawn for me at his local saw mill and then sticker it to let it air dry. In the mean time I was thinking it might be fun to chainsaw off a chunk and try some work in green wood. I've seen Peter Follunsbees appearance on The Woodwrights shop and loved how he split of what I think he called "radial sawn" pieces from a section of trunk. I also noticed that he recently released a video on making a chest and thought it might be fun to give a chest like that a go (maybe with less carving since I've NEVER done any carving).

So my questions.

1) If indeed the tree is red oak, should I even bother. I like QS red oak much better than flat sawn red oak am thinking the split out radial stuff might look nice, but I would be interested in hearing others thoughts since Follunsbee is using white oak for all his stuff.

2) What would I need to make use of a chunk of wet log. A froe? Just some wedges and an appropriate hammer?

3) Carving tools. If I were to get a video or two of his I'm sure he says what to get in terms of sweeps and what not, but I'm wondering what folks recommend in terms of brands of carving tools to get. I think he uses a set of about 6-12 tools for most of his work. What should I expect to spend for a set (by "set" I do not mean prepackaged set) of 6 carving tools? What would I need to get to sharpen them (I have no slips).

4) Curious if anyone here has seen any of Peter Follansbee's videos. If so, how did you like them. I liked his appearance on the Roy's show. He certainly made the carving look less intimidating.

Just sorta thinking about some projects I might like to take on in the coming months. No idea if I'll actually do this but I've been tossing around a number of idea's for upcoming builds and something like this seems like it might be a fun skill builder.

[george wilson]

White oak has closed cells in it,which do not allow water to penetrate all the way through the board. You can take a 12" long piece of red oak,split out,stick it into a pail of water,and blow bubbles in the water just like you had a bundle of straws. Thus,white oak is much more durable around water. As long as white oak is under water,it is o.k.,but in and out of water,it will begin to decay,though not as quickly as red oak. Just a few facts(You aren't building an underwater chest,I presume!!:))

White oak might have a prettier appearance and color than red oak when quartered. Oak must be exactly cut on the quarter to show the medullar ray structure which is so desirable. A few degrees off of 90º,and you won't see those rays. I'm building a white oak machinist's chest,and the oak must be perfectly oriented.

I am not a green wood worker,but I think a froe would be very appropriate for you to have. Also,with a froe,you can alter the direction the wood wants to split by twisting it to one side or the other. You can't do this with wedges,(I think).

[Chris Griggs]

Interesting. I didn't know that about oak. Nah, not building an underwater chest (though that would be cool), but it looks like I better get to that felled tree sooner than later. I've never had any particular interest in working green wood, but I like Follunsbee's chests and boxes, and since I have some I figure what the heck, maybe I'll give something knew a go. I figure the first step is just figuring out if I even turn the log into something usable. If the wood looks nice enough when split I actually wouldn't mind just building the chest without the carving (maybe just add some beading or something instead), mostly because I expect the investment in to get into carving is more than I can cough up right now.

(Also, when you finish it, I want to see pictures of your machinists chest you are buildin )

[george wilson]

The chest is another one of those projects that I have nowhere to keep when it is done!!! I used to be able to buy white oak barrel stave material years ago,and would sift through them until I found perfectly quartered pieces. They were ALL quartered,but like I said,unless the grain is very vertical,the rays just don't show. These staves were up to 1 3/8" thick,a terrible waste,since the finished ones were more like 3/4" thick!! But,very adequate to resaw.

I have to admit,I don't need another tool chest,but I am a chest pig as well as a tool and wood pig!! As creaky as I now am,I'm not sure when I may get to it.

[Chris Griggs]

I don't have a place for a lot of the things I want to build. I want to build them because they look fun or challenging to build. I have about 35 bf of birdseye lying around at the moment, that I've been trying to figure out what to do with. My wife wants me to build a a walnut headboard at the moment, but I'm much more interested in finding something fun to build with the birdseye, even though when whatever I build is finished, it will most certainly look completely out of place in our home even IF (and thats a big if) its something we could use and have space for.

The oak chest however is actually something we can use. I had been planning to build a cherry or walnut blanket chest of some kind anyway, but then got to thinking that the oak might be an opportunity to do something totally new and still come away with something actually useful to our household.

[Karl Andersson]

Chris,
Go to Peter Follasbee's website and look at his blog entries - he gives away a ton of information on green wood working, including carving details (tools needed) stock preparation, and chest construction details. Of course, he does leave some info out in the posts where he's plugging his videos, but that's to be expected: http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/

Peter uses red oak a lot - at least at Plimoth Plantation where his day job is. In one of the older blog entries he explains that this isn't historically accurate, but it is easier for him to get red oak in the right diameter (about 2 feet minimum) and at the right price. Sounds like your price is right too.

I have both his carving videos and find them very interesting and informative. He has a straightforward style, (no wackiness as in Sir Roy), but there is a lot of detail about technique and form, so it isn't boring. He does a preview of the chest vido on his site - I think with your skills you could make one well on your own, but the video surely gives those special details that help with the assembly, style, and green wood.

The carving tools are really very basic - the only "carving" tool I can recall is a large V-tool. If you already have bench gouges, you probably don't need anything else (one of the blog entries shows the tools needed - less than 10 gouges in assorted sweeps).

For the chest, he apparently uses some saws, bench planes, plough plane and moulding planes and an auger for the dowel holes. That's right - no dovetails, because he's a joiner, so he hammers square dowels into augered holes. I don't have that particular video, but I have read about everything in his archives and plan to build a chest and some boxes. I have already tried carving in "green" red oak and it's like carving a pumpkin compared to carving dry oak (which I'll never willfully do again).

Karl

[george wilson]

The best way to carve a pumpkin is really to saw it with a coping saw blade sticking out of a handle,with it's tip ground to a sharp angle so you can push it through the pumpkin. I carved them for years,but got into sawing them.

Yes,red oak is much cheaper and more available than white oak,that's for sure. I really like the looks of English brown oak. When I went to the Tower of London,everything wooden was made of heavy planks and beams of brown oak. Must be many thousands of board feet there.

Unfortunately,the HMS Victory has been re planked with pine as they didn't have enough oak. The hull is too weak to support real cannon,so they use fiberglass shells instead. They were formed around an original gun,and look o.k.,until you touch one,and find it weighs nothing. I think it took about 2 thousand trees to make a ship like that,and England is not real big!! It was a hanging offense to cut down the Royal trees in the past. They used to tie down trees so they grew in arches,to make the ribs of ships from.

Phillip denuded Spain's forests in making the Armada,a truly fruitless venture. You can't get into the port they wanted to land in even with a modern diesel powered boat if the tide is wrong.

[Zach Dillinger]

I really like the looks of English brown oak. When I went to the Tower of London,everything wooden was made of heavy planks and beams of brown oak. Must be many thousands of board feet there.
.

Reminds me of a horrible waste I witnessed firsthand. I've become friends with the operator of a local logging store, sells chainsaws, safety gear, etc. He also has a sawmill and hooks me up with small amounts of great furniture woods. Ever seen 26" wide, 3" thick, 5 foot long slabs of curled walnut? I have 5 such slabs thanks to him. Anyway, they are in close proximity to Michigan State University and the maintenance department occasionally has my friend saw wood for them. A beautiful, 3 foot diameter English brown oak had to be taken down. It was sitting in the parking lot and I tried like mad to buy the log, which belonged to the university. No deal. They had him saw it up for 2 x 4s to be used as wooden frameworks for the backs of their landscaping trucks. I even told them I would buy them an equal amount of white oak in exchange for the English brown oak. No deal. I still rue that missed opportunity.

[Karl Andersson]

And I think British and later colonial shipbuilding are the reasons why there are very few Live Oak trees left in Virginia - the curved branches were used for knees, ribs, and other curved parts of ships so the grain would be continuous. Still plenty on the gulf coast, but they are "only" about 200 year-old babies. Must have been an amazing forest in the VA tidewater - with the oaks, gigantic poplars, and pines so tall, wide and straight you could make masts out of them.

Check out the historically accurate paint jobs of Follasbee's 17th century work - pretty garish by today's tastes. They apparently didn't appreciate the mellow color of aged oak (couldn't wait the decades for it to come I guess). Hadn't started fuming with ammonia at that point. I believe he just finishes the unpainted red oak with a BLO mix, they look pretty fresh when done.

[george wilson]

They loved color back then. Can't really blame them,either,as so much was very drab in their lives. Colors were very expensive. I hated that "Spanish red" that seemed so prevalent in the museum. Most likely it was one of the cheapest pigments available at the time.

Zach,here's REAL waste: During the war when building ships like crazy,some half baked marine architect told a shipyard to plank the deck of a carrier with lengthwise 12"x12" ash .





They used mahogany on some of them!!

When it was discovered that the wood was laid the wrong way,the men were made to saw up those huge beams and burn them. They were not allowed to take any home. It was said that some cried while having to do that. The British had sense enough to put armored decks on their carriers. That would have saved many lives of Americans had we done that,from the suicide attacks that came later in the war.

[Mel Fulks]

Live oak is only hardy in the southernmost and coastal part of CURRENT Virginia. Does much better in North Carolina and farther south.

[george wilson]

And,Virginia (and everywhere) was cooler in the 18th.C.. In 1857(?) the very long (thousand year?)cooling period came to an end.

[Karl Andersson]

Could be that the quote I read (from the 17th century, I believe, expounding the natural resources of the New World) was referring to a larger early Virginia - not sure when the differentiation was made with the Carolinas. Still, with the cooling period George refers to, there must have been some warmth for centuries if these trees were old enough to be used for ships. Between Fort Story (mouth of the Chesapeake) and Dismal Swamp is a more "southern" ecosystem, with cypress, Spanish Moss, and other plants typically found in the Deep South. Probably a combination of wind currents and gulf stream moisture/ warmth. Oh, I know, it's the west end of the Bermuda Triangle - that HAS to be it!


George (or anyone), what WAS red oak used for in early America - just firewood?

[Mel Fulks]

My guess is any early mention of "live oak" might just mean standing timber. Wasn't being picky about where live oak will grow,just hate to think of people buying anything that is going to fail in their location.

[Chris Griggs]

Karl, thanks for the input on his website. I had perused it a bit but hadn't looked into the archives much until now. I think I could figure out how to split/hew/rive the wood and make the chest with just his site and other interweb info, but the carving I would need to at least get his first video. I have all the hand tools I need to make the chest and my FIL may very have what we need to split the log, but I have zero bench gouges or any carving tools. Follansbee has this picture (http://pfollansbee.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/carving-tools-2.jpg) on his website of the 6 tools he uses most, that he says he show people when they ask him what they should get, but there is no description of the sweep - they are at least next to a ruler so you can get a good idea of the sizes. I don't know how wide the tree I have access to is, but I just texted my FIL and he is going to measure it for me - he also informed me that it didn't actually fall during Sandy and has been there for a couple years. I looked at it last time I was there and didn't notice any obvious rot, but I thought it had fallen recently so I didn't look closely. I could be too late, and it might be rotting already. Although they have a lot of land and there are a few downed trees on there property, some more recently fallen than others. I don't think they bother to have the ones that fall in the more wooded areas hauled away,so maybe he thinks I'm talking about a different one. I shall have to wait and see.

Interesting side conversation going on. Live Oak trees are all over the place in New Orleans. They paid millions to get new adult ones put in the main parts of the city after Katrina. I think they grow naturally in the areas in general too though. I never tried to get any when I lived down there - I wonder how hard it would have been.

[george wilson]

Karl,I'm not a big user of oak. I used musical instrument woods mostly,and was next to the cabinet shop,where they used mahogany,walnut and cherry along with secondary woods. Oak and walnut were predominate in English woodworking before the new,colorful woods of the New World became all the fashion.

I don't see why red oak couldn't be used in any number of applications,such as framing buildings,where it was not directly exposed to the weather(and rain). I'm pretty sure that by the 18th.C.,there were far LESS trees in the whole area around Williamsburg than there are now. Wood was used for everything from heating on up. They didn't even allow trees to be in town in the 18th.C. in Wmsbg.,because they wanted the place to look like a city,not an outpost. Their ideas were pretty different about shade trees back then,from what they now are. So,you wouldn't really have seen those big,pretty trees lining the streets of Wmsbg. in the 18th.C.. To our modern eyes,the town would be ugly without them,though.

Charcoal makers really denuded large areas back then,making charcoal for forges,etc.. A very dangerous occupation,too!! Walking around atop a dirt covered LARGE pile of smoldering charcoal the size of a yurt,you could make a wrong step,and fall in,getting baked alive. They did this to poke holes to regulate the fire inside.

[James Owen]

1) "Green" red oak should work fine. I have never worked green oak before -- all of the oak that I've used has been air or kiln dried. From the videos, I gather that green oak is relatively easy to carve. Dried oak is more of a challenge..... Most of my carving has been in walnut, various types of pine or douglas fir, and basswood. All of those carve relatively easily. Pine is especially useful for "test carving" before you cut the pattern in expensive wood....

2) A froe, a froe mallet, a sledge hammer, a small axe, and several wedges should get you there. As I recall, those are the tools used in the chest video, for splitting the log into billets.

3) Carving tools: Pfeil makes very nice carving tools and probably has the largest selection of sweeps and sizes. Ashley Iles also makes very high quality carving tools, but with a smaller selection than Pfeil. I have not used any Henry Taylor carving tools, but based on using their bench chisels, I would expect them to also be of high quality.
Depending on the size of the gouge(s) needed, expect to pay about $30 to $50 (most seem to be in the $30 to $40 range) per gouge for the Pfeils (that will depend largely on the size of the gouge); in general, the AI and HT are slightly less expensive. Altogether, for the dozen or so that are needed to do 17th Century chest carving, you're probably looking at about $200 to $350, depending on what brand you settle on and which tools you buy.
As long as you don't let the gouges or V-Tool get (too) dull, the four-piece set of the Spyderco ceramic slips will get you honed back to sharpness quickly. If you prefer oil or water stones, you can also get a set of slips in those materials. Otherwise, your regular sharpening set up should work fine; you'll want something equivalent to about 8000 grit or 10000 grit in water stones as your finishing stone. Some carvers like to strop, with or without green honing compound. For the woods I use, I haven't found the need. YMMV.

4) The carving is a lot easier than it appears. Mr. Follansbee breaks the carving down into basic steps in his videos. The traditional patterns are essentially a series of simple cuts put together in various ways.
I have watched all three of his videos. I think that they are excellently done, and present a huge amount of information in a way that it is easy to absorb and learn. He does an excellent job of explaining and then demonstrating, along with letting the viewer know some of the potential pitfalls and how avoid/fix them.
The first two videos concentrate on carving. The video on the chest emphasizes the construction aspect much more than the carving.
Another thing that I like is his emphasis on body mechanics. Particularly in the two carving videos, he repeatedly mentions and demonstrates the proper body mechanics ("postures" in his parlance) for the carving operation that he is performing. As with the carving techniques, he explains and then demonstrates.
In one respect, his presentation method is similar to that of David Charlesworth: he takes his time and thoroughly explains what he is doing and why. I happen to like that methodology, as opposed to the rapid-fire style that some videos use; you may or may not.

All in all, I think that they are excellent videos. Admittedly, they cover a relatively small niche aspect of woodworking, but for what they cover, they do a superb job.

For what it is worth, the first carving video is what inspired me to build the chest below. The chest is something that I had wanted to build for over a decade, but the carving intimidated me. Mr. Follansbee's first video, demonstrated to me that the carving is not as difficult as I thought it was, and inspired me to build and carve the chest.
You may find, after viewing one (or more) of them, that they do the same for you. You'll find that you learn a LOT, and, if you do the carving or build the chest with carving, that you will have learned a number of very useful skills. I certainly did.


247136247135247137247138

[Joe Cunningham]

I've done some very basic green woodworking with red oak (splitting out panels, squaring up posts, spring-pole turning). Works fine. I don't have a froe, though I am considering getting one since I seem to like this more than usual kiln-dried woodworking. I just used an axe and hatchet to split things out.

Go for it. It costs you nothing except time. I do have wood planes though that I use with the green wood. Not sure I'd use my metal planes with it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Chris -

Peter's 17th-century style woodcarving is rather simple, repeating geometric patterns - I wouldn't get too hung up on sweeps - just something similar-ish. If you want to be particular, you could scale up the image from his website until the ruler is roughly at size and then compare it to something like the chart in the new Tools For Working Wood catalong (you can print that from their website, as well) for a decent idea of what a sweep number is going to look like compared to what he's using if that helps.

I really enjoyed his video, even though I haven't applied his carving style to anything other than some scraps. I need to get some slip stones before I start picking up more profiled tools, and right now I'd rather build what I can with what I have and spend money on wood.

I have the first DVD if you'd like to borrow it before you start chasing something new. I promise I'll get it out faster than that inlay stuff.

If you're at all interested in green woodworking, the book he recently did with Jennie Alexander (the joint stool book) is a great book as well. I really liked it. Heck, even if you're not interested in green woodworking it's a great book. It covers a lot more than the title would suggest and is beautifully illustrated. I know there are other books by Alexander and others on the topic, but the joint stool one is the only one I've seen. There was a fair amount of info from the book contained in the excerpt that was in in Popular Woodworking a few months back as well.

[Michael Gaynes]

Chris -

...If you want to be particular, you could scale up the image from his website until the ruler is roughly at size and then compare it to something like the chart in the new Tools For Working Wood catalong (you can print that from their website, as well) for a decent idea of what a sweep number is going to look like compared to what he's using if that helps.

I did just that (with a little help from Photoshop) when I first saw that blog post: 247141

[Chris Griggs]

Gentlemen,

Thanks you for the very thorough and thoughtful replies. Very very VERY helpful.

James, well they must be great videos, if they motivated you to make that. We all know what the proof is in and your chest is definitely the proverbial pudding. Very very nice.

Josh, I would LOVE to borrow that video. My guess is it will end up persuading me to buy his others. I know what you mean about trying not to spend money on tools in favor of wood lately. I've been trying to do the same, which is why I might be a while (at least until after the holidays) before I buy any carving tools and put anything from the videos to use - I won't have time until than anyway, so post Xmas will be a good time for me to really decide whether or not to take this on. THough now that I've gotten all this great info I really really want to build one of those chests.

Thanks for doing that chart Michael. Now I can figure out exactly what I'll need and start budgeting for carving tools.

Next step for me is to make sure the tree/wood is good to use and if so, start splitting.