What a bunch of jerks...

[Bill Bixby]

I just read an article about Sears copying a guy's wrench and having cheap copies made in china.. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/09/business/popular-wrench-fights-a-chinese-rival.html?pagewanted=all

when I was in there yesterday I saw that they now have a knock off of Rockwells Jawhorse for $30 cheaper then the real one.

I guess this is the American way.

[Stephen Cherry]

Is Sears still around? I remember reading their catalogs years ago. Haven't been there in years.

[Biff Johnson]

I was in our Sears a few weeks ago looking for a lathe tool. There was a gorgeous young thing working the counter. I use the word "working" loosely because she was talking on her cell phone and ignoring customers. I decide that the girl probably didn't know the difference between laid and lathe so I left. It's a sad state of affairs since Craftsman used to be the mainstay for hobbyists.

[John McClanahan]

when I was in there yesterday I saw that they now have a knock off of Rockwells Jawhorse for $30 cheaper then the real one.

I guess this is the American way.

Home Depot has their version, too.

John

[Jim Riseborough]

I had read this too, and I have decided not to buy any more of their tools. Not sure what I will get next, but I am going to buy american, to hell with it, if govt cant get things back on track, perhaps consumers can.

I started with a hand plane. Lee Valley vs Lie Nielsen. Guess which I got and why?

[David Weaver]

I started with a hand plane. Lee Valley vs Lie Nielsen. Guess which I got and why?

Lee valley, because they didn't copy the stanley design?

[Chuck Wintle]

I was in our Sears a few weeks ago looking for a lathe tool. There was a gorgeous young thing working the counter. I use the word "working" loosely because she was talking on her cell phone and ignoring customers. I decide that the girl probably didn't know the difference between laid and lathe so I left. It's a sad state of affairs since Craftsman used to be the mainstay for hobbyists.

yes it is to bad because craftsman was good once upon a time. but to comment on the disinterested girl i wonder where the manager was...?

[Jim Riseborough]

Lee valley, because they didn't copy the stanley design?

Sorry, no Lie Nielsen, copy or not, Stanley seems to have a good track record.

[Joe Angrisani]

....I started with a hand plane. Lee Valley vs Lie Nielsen. Guess which I got and why?

Can't be Lee Valley. They're not American.

[Jim Riseborough]

Can't be Lee Valley. They're not American.

Ding Ding, we have a winner. But my new router was made in Mexico I think, No US made routers that I could find.

[Chuck Wintle]

Lee valley, because they didn't copy the stanley design?

its true they are not us made but rather north american made which is rare. General manufacturing has ceased to manufacture and only imports now.

[Moses Yoder]

Sorry, no Lie Nielsen, copy or not, Stanley seems to have a good track record.

Stanley still has planes made with their brand I think; why was your choice either Lee Valley or Lie Nielson?

[Jim Riseborough]

Stanley still has planes made with their brand I think; why was your choice either Lee Valley or Lie Nielson?

Strictly since its US made.

[Troy Turner]

It is certainly sad that big business would rather make a knock for and sell it for cheap instead of trying to partner with the guy and keep it American. I used to buy Craftsman...alot. So my kids are growing up with a lot of craftsman stuff. However, this year they asked if I was sticking with them so they knew what to get me for Christmas. Told them no. Kobalt looks pretty good. Not all Amercian made, but it's hard to find made in the US tools (hand tools) that are within the budget.

I was hoping to be able to pass some advice down to them "Craftsman are US made and quality", but it's hard to do that anymore. And as far as going into a Sears and looking around, sounds like everyone else is having the same experiences I have. Kids at the register or literally running up and down the aisles playing games while customers and just hanging out.

[David Weaver]

As far as mechanics tools go, there are a lot of used professional tools out there.

While a lot of us want Sears to make tools the way they used to, we must not actually buy them in much volume if they do. I personally don't buy much there any longer, I think their business model was a good one before the internet. But the ability to shop online and shave margins, and the ability to get decent quality chinese tools has pretty much run them out.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of branders/resellers did the same thing that sears did trying to run this particular guy out, but articles of this type don't particularly make me want to go there to shop for anything.

[Jim Riseborough]

A quote from sears: Sears evaluates product sourcing to evaluate the highest quality & service. We deny these allegations and will vigorously defend any claims.

This is in response to the article posted at the top. So still not shopping there.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think you can read volumes into the fact that K-Mart bought Sears years ago. It's been a sink hole since that transaction in my opinion. We have many local Sears stores, stores I've shopped in for 30 years or so. Last time I went into one of them at the mall, the place looked abandoned. There was enough empty floor space in there to put another entire store in there. There was literally so much empty space around, I thought they must be remodeling or something. Nope, just had no product to sell.

One of the local K-Mart's which has been here for decades as well just closed up. So I think Sears is headed down the same path as long as their are being run by the K-Mart people.

Just my opinion.

[Moses Yoder]

The problem is one of perception. When Joe Homeowner has to hang a picture, he needs a nail and a hammer. He has no place to store the hammer or the nail, so he is going to throw them away when he is done. He buys the cheapest hammer he can find; anything else would be a waste of money. Why can China make a hammer for 25 cents and an American hammer costs $15? Because American labor prices and methods are outdated. The economy is dying as a natural process, such as when a tree gets old and dies. There is nothing that can be done to stop it. I am not paid nearly enough to afford the product I make, which Henry Ford knew was a mistake back in the early 1900s.

[Matt Meiser]

A quote from sears: Sears evaluates product sourcing to evaluate the highest quality & service. We deny these allegations and will vigorously defend any claims.

This is in response to the article posted at the top. So still not shopping there.

They further explained this somewhere that they made sure they changed it enough to skirt the patent (not their words, but what they meant.)

And Sears isn't charging less for their wrench.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-8inch-max-axess-adjustable-wrench/p-00935359000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2
http://www.sears.com/loggerhead-tools-8-in-bionic-wrench/p-00916521000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

[glenn bradley]

I think their business model was a good one before the internet. But the ability to shop online and shave margins, and the ability to get decent quality chinese tools has pretty much run them out.

Let's not let them off the hook that easy. Sears had the best mail order business on the planet. They just totally missed shifting that resource to the online world. They were not alone in sleeping through the early realization that the internet could be exploited. Some large companies still have terrible websites. However, I digress :D

[Kevin Bourque]

The company that makes the wrench that Sears copied isn't far from where I live. They were interviewing the owner on the local news and he is suing Sears for ripping him off. I hope he cleans them out!

[David Keller NC]

Well, dang - I'll pay $24.99 for the Loggerhead version, and I'll ask my company's mechanic to buy a couple more for the tool box. $5 more for one made in US doesn't seem like such a bad deal, and I'll have to admit the design is pretty clever - I can't count the number of times I've had a nut that's rounded to the point where even a 6-point wrench isn't going to get it loose from the bolt.

And, it appears you can get the "real deal" without giving Sears a dime (search Amazon for "loggerhead bionic wrench" - they make a number of cleaver tools).

[Greg Peterson]

I guess this is the American way.

Yup, it is.

[Michael Moscicki]

Well, dang - I'll pay $24.99 for the Loggerhead version, and I'll ask my company's mechanic to buy a couple more for the tool box. $5 more for one made in US doesn't seem like such a bad deal, and I'll have to admit the design is pretty clever - I can't count the number of times I've had a nut that's rounded to the point where even a 6-point wrench isn't going to get it loose from the bolt.

And, it appears you can get the "real deal" without giving Sears a dime (search Amazon for "loggerhead bionic wrench" - they make a number of cleaver tools).

I would too, but they happen to be the same exact price at least for the 8" version at Sears. So that's $17.99 for the American and Chinese tool. So much for the cheaper labor force.

[Brian Elfert]

I would too, but they happen to be the same exact price at least for the 8" version at Sears. So that's $17.99 for the American and Chinese tool. So much for the cheaper labor force.

I'll bet Sears makes a much higher margin on the Chinese made tool. The Loggerhead tool look like a much nicer product.

[Montgomery Scott]

Grizzly does the same thing, but I don't see many people complaining. They copied the Vicmarc chuck exactly and the Jet 1642 very closely. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

[Brian Elfert]

Grizzly does the same thing, but I don't see many people complaining. They copied the Vicmarc chuck exactly and the Jet 1642 very closely. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

Were the two items that Grizzly copied patented? I believe the item in question is patented and Sears believes they made just enough changes to not violate the patent.

The other thing is Grizzly probably never sold the Vimarc or the Jet item. Sears was selling the original item and then decided to have their own version produced in China. There are plenty of cases were a machinery manufacturer copied another design. Somebody here recently had an issue with a Jet shaper. Responses were that Jet had copied another machine that used Whitworth bolts. That would be the only reason Jet would have used Whitworth bolts in that one place.

[Montgomery Scott]

Whether there is a patent or not is irrelevant in my mind, though certainly not to lawyers. The fact Grizzly copied someone else's design and sold it under their own brand is enough for me to say they have sleazy business practices.

[Ben Hatcher]

One could argue that the bionic wrench patent wasn't very well constructed if only minor changes were needed to bypass it. But it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that a company as large as Sears would outright violate a small companies patent under the assumption that undercutting them on price will eventually bankrupt the patent holder thus eliminating his ability to continue to defend it in court.

[David Weaver]

Whether there is a patent or not is irrelevant in my mind, though certainly not to lawyers. The fact Grizzly copied someone else's design and sold it under their own brand is enough for me to say they have sleazy business practices.

Not trying to defend grizzly, but was the 1642 a lathe that was designed by jet, or was it a copy of features of an earlier lathe by a factory in taiwan or something that jet saw and purchased, and maybe made slight modifications to. It may not have been grizzly copying jet, but rather grizzly buying machines from the same place.

[David Weaver]

One could argue that the bionic wrench patent wasn't very well constructed if only minor changes were needed to bypass it. But it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that a company as large as Sears would outright violate a small companies patent under the assumption that undercutting them on price will eventually bankrupt the patent holder thus eliminating his ability to continue to defend it in court.

That last part was my comment about a hypothetical strategy. It may have been that the parts that were patentable on the wrench were fairly easy to bypass just as a matter of requirement for specifics of the patented part or function.

[Brian Elfert]

Whether there is a patent or not is irrelevant in my mind, though certainly not to lawyers. The fact Grizzly copied someone else's design and sold it under their own brand is enough for me to say they have sleazy business practices.

Are we sure the Jet wasn't just a copy of some other product? As someone else mentioned it could be that Grizzly bought from the same factory as Jet. Many tool importers buy from the same factories with just a different color of paint on their item. I see the same machinery sold by many different importers.

[Troy Turner]

Grizzly does the same thing, but I don't see many people complaining. They copied the Vicmarc chuck exactly and the Jet 1642 very closely. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

I can see where alot of tool companies "borrow" ideas from each other because there's only so many ways to setup a t/s, b/s, lathe, or what have you. Besides, they make enough money as it is.

The story I see here is that Joe Average American developed a useful product, patended it, and is selling a MADE IN THE USA product at a price where he can make some money and we can get a good product at a resonable price. Then here comes Sears, taking his idea because the innovators they have aren't smart enough to figure something like this out.

I hope he has a good attorney that's in it for the fight and not just the money. Sears can pay their attorneys to fight for years, but something like this could put this guy out of business.

[Jim Matthews]

yes it is to bad because craftsman was good once upon a time. but to comment on the disinterested girl i wonder where the manager was...?

Did she have a box of tackle stuck into her face? No?
She probably was the manager.

[Russ Revels]

From what I remember of the news article, sears had the guy sign an exclusive sales agreement. Then dropped him the next year after they made their copy.

[Jeff Nicol]

Whether there is a patent or not is irrelevant in my mind, though certainly not to lawyers. The fact Grizzly copied someone else's design and sold it under their own brand is enough for me to say they have sleazy business practices.
Once the patent has run its term of protection, anyone can make the exact thing and try and sell it and there is no infringement at all. But if the original and the knock off are very close in price but not in quality, most will still buy the original but sometimes the next generation of a product may be better made at a lesser price and most will always buy for less in hopes of getting quality at a low price. Patent infringement is such a hard thing and if anyone who is trying to get a patent on a new design, there must me a patent search done to assure the product is different than what is already on file. So if Sears or anyone is selling a product that they are purchasing from a manufacurer or supplier, the buyer for the store should make sure that the product does not infringe on any other patents.

But anyway the thing about why China can do this or that and here in the US it costs much more is due to the unbelieveable amount of regulations and fees that a business has to meet before it can even start the business. Then even if the business gets going, costs of everything needed to produce an item is more costly than China or other NON FREE nations thus causing US goods to be more expensive. The thing that I wanted to address to Montgomery is that how did he or others get the idea that everything that is inexpensive is meant to be just tossed in the trash?? Who has taught this to those who would do this, it is just insane! This is a problem which is that there is no respect for anything anymore, even if it is a Chinese tool one should be proud of the tool and use it to the best of their ability and in the eventuallity that one can buy a better tool, pass the other one on to someone who would be happy to have it! We need to bring back pride in self and country, and also respect for yourself and others or we will become nothing but used up and non productive nation. We are still the USA and each and everyone of us need to remember that we are the last bastion of freedom in the world and we have the best and brightest designers, engineers, scientists and hardest working people anywhere! It is up to us to bring the US back to it's past glory and return the respect that the world showed us because we were and still are exceptional.

One nail, one hammer, one child at a time and our history and future will lead the world again.

Jeff