Fine furniture?

[Alan Bienlein]

What is fine furniture exactly?

I scour the net everyday to get my fix for new methods and techniques to use in my woodworking projects. I don't believe in there is only one way to do something. Never have and never will!

It seems that alot of people believe that if you use metal drawer slides your fine furniture piece isn't fine furniture and that it's not quality work.

That if you use nails or screws in your joinery that it's not fine furniture.

That if you use pocket holes or biscuits it's not fine furniture.

That if you use god forbid a belt sander your not building fine furniture.

Why?

Last I checked this is the 21st century and we have all these items available to use in the making of our woodworking projects. Why not use them.

Now people will start to say thats not how they traditionally built fine furniture but I say they didn't have these items available to them and if they were they were cost prohibitive.

Why is it that alot of woodworkers only consider it fine furniture if you only used hand tools?

I understand that some people enjoy using only hand tools and more power to them but how does that make a piece of furniture any more "fine" than one built with power tools?

[Jerry Thompson]

I've never considered fine furniture requiring hand tools only/mostly. It seems FF would be a mix of what you had. I would find it hard to believe that 18th cen. craftsmen would not use power tools if they had been available.

[Paul Murphy]

In the end, fine furniture is whatever you think it is as long as you are building for yourself. If you are building for someone else, then their opinion will matter also.
In a hundred years, if you were right, your furniture will still be in use, will still function well, and there will be widespread agreement that you indeed built fine furniture :D.

I have used pocket hole construction in face-frames for kitchen cabinets, but not in what I intend to be "fine furniture" where I instead used mortise and tenon construction. Am I right? I think so, but I could be making lots of extra work for myself. I do know none of my fine furniture has needed repair.

I embraced the better undermount drawer slides, and use them in my fine furniture. If someone paying money wants traditional drawers, that is what they will have. Either way I will try my best to build a nice piece, because that is what drew me to woodworking in the first place.

I use a lot of power tools, but am finding hand tools more useful as time goes on. I have come to love hand tools such as the scraper, and the low-angle block plane and can't really think of a power tool that can do the same job. In my opinion the results are what count, not the tool used. I use a router to make sliding dovetails, but some folks hate the noise and use hand tools. I don't see either as "better", but the job gets done, and the person doing it is satisfied with the process.

[Mike Henderson]

To me, fine furniture is a good design, well executed.

Remember Deming's definition of quality - "Quality is what the customer says it is."

Mike

[Tom Fischer]

I think the term "Fine Furniture" is a throw back to very old construction methods (Churches and barns) of mortise and tenon joinery.
Back then, they had no glues for those joints, swaying in the wind.
Had to rely on some crude engineering, and hand tools.
It was a work ethic, lasted a long time. Still there.
I usually try to use M&T joints.
When I am not in a hurry, it just "feels" right.

[david brum]

I'll bet if you could see into the shops of most professional fine woodworkers (who live by producing work as efficiently as possible), you'd see lots of biscuits, loose tenons, pocket screws and lots of sand paper. If you're producing exact reproduction pieces, that might be a different story. Even then, I doubt if many people are making their own veneer without power tools.

I say use whatever method that gives you reliable results and appropriate appearance.

[Jay Rasmussen]

To me “fine” is the end result.

Not how you got there.

[Bobby O'Neal]

I think fine furniture is furniture built with care and detail. Regardless of process, I think "fine" is up to the results but that depends on what you are looking at. A fine mortise and tenon fits tightly and lasts a lifetime. That can be created in many ways. A fine dovetail joint, in my opinion, has thin pins and a unique layout and that won't be done with a router.

[George Gyulatyan]

To me fine furniture is something that once built, others try to imitate. It does not just consist of fine craftsmanship, but is of great artistic value as well. The use or lack of certain materials or joinery doesn't automatically make or break "fine furniture".

[Rick Fisher]

I have always felt it a quality comment. I use pocket screws to hold table tops to apron's because its so strong. Never occurred to me that it would not be considered " fine " .. lol

IMO Fine furniture is furniture that can be " lived with " for a generation and not fall apart .. Its quality due to technique, not just mass..

[HANK METZ]

I've never considered fine furniture requiring hand tools only/mostly. It seems FF would be a mix of what you had. I would find it hard to believe that 18th cen. craftsmen would not use power tools if they had been available.

A most reasonable and lucid description of reality. Indeed, craftsmen of any era would gladly embrace any motive means that would make their work faster, easier, cheaper. The rest is just romantic nonsense.

- Beachside Hank
Improvise, adapt, overcome; the essence of true craftsmanship.

[Jeff Duncan]

To me.....I know it when I see it;)

It's no so much about what tools were or were not used. Or what type of specific joints or fasteners, or any of the things in the OP's list....with the single exception of metal slides. Metal slides IMHO are production slides and as such I generally don't want to see them on furniture. It's the finished piece that says everything. I don't care if there are biscuits used or screws used, or whether it's veneer or solid. What I care is that the craftsman knew where to use the biscuits and/or screws, that he/she knew where to use veneer and where to use solid wood. That it's a good design with good proportions and quality construction. And I really don't care what specific kind of tools were used, anyone who thinks it should be all hand tools is IMHO slightly delusional, and while certainly entitled to their opinion, I would not personally give it much merit:rolleyes:

JeffD

[William Adams]

A man who works with his hands is a laborer.
A man who works with his hands and his mind is a craftsman.
A man who works with his hands, his mind and his heart is an artist.

Fine furniture I think would begin somewhere in between the latter two --- something like:

A man who works with his hands and his mind and produces work which people will love and cherish is a craftsman making fine furniture or other heirlooms.

Or the Biblical:

Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before lesser men.
--- Proverbs 22:29

[glenn bradley]

As usual, Mike brings it to ground with a few intelligent words. To me, fine furniture is quality furniture. The meaning of quality varies with the person.

[Andrew Joiner]

As usual, Mike brings it to ground with a few intelligent words. To me, fine furniture is quality furniture. The meaning of quality varies with the person.

Yes, I agree. Did Sam Maloof make fine furniture? He used screws in his work when it was best in his experience.

[Mike Henderson]

Yes, I agree. Did Sam Maloof make fine furniture? He used screws in his work when it was best in his experience.
Yeah, he used to call the screws "metal dowels":-)

Mike

[Will Rowland]

What is fine furniture exactly?

It seems that alot of people believe that if you use metal drawer slides your fine furniture piece isn't fine furniture and that it's not quality work.



Interestingly, I went in one of these "Amish-made" furniture stores here in Houston last weekend. The furniture - mostly Mission-style in cherry or QSWO - looked quite nice as displayed. And it's not cheap, e.g., $2k - $3k for an oak dresser.

However, I was absolutely shocked when opening a drawer to find that all drawer slides on the furniture were cheap side mount metal slides, like what you would find on Kraftmaid cabinets.

Seeing that really left a bad taste in mouth...I could never consider a piece "fine furniture" with a glaring chrome drawer slide visible every time the drawer was opened. That said, had it been of the undermount variety, and nicely hidden, I think I would have been OK with it.

[paul cottingham]

I'm pretty sure that there are screws in some or much of the furniture the Hall bros made for the Greenes. I'm positive I have seen X-rays of the joinery that revealed use of screws. That basically set it for me, I don't use screws much, but I don't get my butt in a knot when I do.
at least I think the Hall stuff built for the Greenes qualify as fine furniture. :-)

[David Posey]

I have seen a piece of "Amish" furniture (from actual Amish country, no less) that was at least partly made with thinly veneered particle board. In my opinion, anything that has a tendency to disintegrate if it gets a little water on it isn't "fine."

The joinery was also clearly done with a router. That doesn't necessarily make it bad joinery, I just thought it odd for an allegedly Amish made piece. Perhaps they use power in their woodworking shops just as they do in their dairies.

[David Posey]

My understanding is that pocket hole screws are a traditional way of joining table tops to aprons. Chris Schwarz mentions it on an original Shaker table here: http://blog.lostartpress.com/2010/05/16/table-joinery-really-you-can-sell-that/

I would agree with him that staples do not constitute fine furniture.

It's virtually impossible to have a strong connection of relatively thin table top to base without some sort of metal fastener. Sometimes you will see just glue blocks on antiques, but usually there are a few popped loose because of wood movement or because the glue joint has broken down.

[Alan Bienlein]

This has been very interesting reading in this thread. I was hesitant about posting it and have been pondering it for a few months.

I'm not sure any of us can decide if we have made "fine" furniture. I think that's for future generations to decide.

I really think if you have all the elements in place as far as design, wood selection and craftsmanship then it needs to stand the test of time. By that I mean it needs to be taken care of and left unchanged.

I've seen to many pieces bought at antique stores only to be cut up and modified for a use other than what was intended.

I may never know if what I have built will ever be considered fine furniture. Hopefully it will still be in use and taken care of when I pass. If that happens then I think I might have succeeded.

[Jacob Reverb]

Who cares what anyone thinks?

Are you building it for them...or for yourself?

Life's too short to worry about what other people think or don't think, IMHO.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah. If every bean box is "high end" maybe "fine" means anything not made for the kitchen.

[James Conrad]

Whenever I hear or see the word "Fine" tacked up with furniture, art or whatever it just makes me cringe. Maybe 40 or 50 years ago it meant something, but today I find the overwhelming majority of "fine" whatever, the word is used to justify someones expensive education, appease ones ego or an attempt to church up poor work. Like calling an inkjet print a giclee, a saying about a pig and lipstick comes to mind - it just ain't no silver chloride print.

It is a title that is earned after years of hard work and recognition and not self-assigned, it belongs to the masters like Krenov, Weston and Shore. But, I highly doubt any of them would have used or approved of the word "fine" in the description of their work, at least not the cheap substitute it is today.

[Matt Hutchinson]

I think another related discussion is "What is the difference between fine furniture and 'best' quality furniture." Regardless of construction methods (somewhat), to me joinery and finish determine a piece's quality. I consider many pieces of furniture "fine" quality, but if I see a glue line in a panel or a hairline gap in a joint it gets demoted to "fine and/or well done, but not top end".

- Hutch

[Cody Colston]

I liken "fine furniture" to Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's comment about hard-core pornography...it's hard to describe but you know it when you see it.

[brian c miller]

I think that for me there can not be glaring shortcuts. It just feels cheap.

For example. I just went to visit an Amish funiture maker just outside of Lancaster, PA. They sold a chest of drawers fo 3-4k and has been in bussines for 2 genrations. For the most part, the funiture was well built. Solid woods, shiplaped backs, no plywood, and lot of other great selling features.

However, when you opened a drawer you could see signs of cutting corners. The drawer box was simple butt joints that were stapled together and then the drawer face was overlayed. The sales persons told me that this was a time honored method that allowed for movement in the wood and that these drawer could last a life time but it just left cheap to me. I could live with drawer slides, espically for heavy items, but the staples... nope.

[Mike Henderson]

I think that for me there can not be glaring shortcuts. It just feels cheap.

For example. I just went to visit an Amish funiture maker just outside of Lancaster, PA. They sold a chest of drawers fo 3-4k and has been in bussines for 2 genrations. For the most part, the funiture was well built. Solid woods, shiplaped backs, no plywood, and lot of other great selling features.

However, when you opened a drawer you could see signs of cutting corners. The drawer box was simple butt joints that were stapled together and then the drawer face was overlayed. The sales persons told me that this was a time honored method that allowed for movement in the wood and that these drawer could last a life time but it just left cheap to me. I could live with drawer slides, espically for heavy items, but the staples... nope.
I visited an Amish furniture maker up state from Lancaster. His shop was exactly like any other commercial furniture maker, except it used another source of power than electricity. But the table saw, for example, was a modern table saw.

The quality of his work was not high - it was typical commercial quality, the same as you would see coming from a non-Amish commercial woodworking shop.

One funny story from the visit was that I saw a stack of crest rails for rocking chairs in the corner. Each one had a design in the face of the crest rail. So I asked him, "Do you carve those crest rails during the evening?"

He replied, "No, I buy them from a place that presses the design into them with a hydraulic press."

So much for old time hand work.

Mike

[Matt Radtke]

"Fine" to me is doing your project the "best" way using the "best" construction methods. Power tools are fine, hand tools are fine. The "no shortcuts" comment from above is a nice way to think about it. I don't have hard and fast rules, but I'll try to explain. For example:

Sometimes screws are the best way. Always good to let your table top move. Still fine furniture.

Sometimes screws are used because you're in a hurry or it's easier, even though a mortise and tenon could be executed. If you use screws, it's not "fine" anymore.

[Ben Hatcher]

"Fine" to me is doing your project the "best" way using the "best" construction methods. Power tools are fine, hand tools are fine. The "no shortcuts" comment from above is a nice way to think about it. I don't have hard and fast rules, but I'll try to explain. For example:

Sometimes screws are the best way. Always good to let your table top move. Still fine furniture.

Sometimes screws are used because you're in a hurry or it's easier, even though a mortise and tenon could be executed. If you use screws, it's not "fine" anymore.

This plus attention to detail such as color and grain matching.

[Keith Hankins]

Fine is in the eye of the beholder. I consider my furniture fine and have had comments to that effect. I've used all means of construction. I did a piece with a bubinga veneer that turned out fantastic and it has floating mortise and tenon but so what. The means of how's its put together means less to me than how long it will last. I sign each piece with a small note from myself in an out of the way place and finish over it. I like to think a few hundred years someone will see it and wonder about the builder. You want to see the masters, let me recommend something. If you can, go to the metropolitan museum of art and look at some Goddard/Townsend stuff. To me that is amazing. However let me also recommend a book John Townsend Newport Cabinet maker(see link). its expensive but if you go to the library, most have an interlibrary loan department and can get it for you to see free. That book has some amazing pictures of views of their furniture that you cannot see from the display. And it's amazing as you are impressed with what is visible .vs. hidden. When those guys made stuff, if it wasn't seen it didn't matter as much. I've seen pieces with the backs of ornate cabinets not even planed down to smooth. If it looked good was good. Kreig did not invent pocket screws. Used for ever to hold taple tops down. So that no nails or screws is just bunk. Like a lot of others have said you know it when u see it!!!!!!!!!!!! Have a good one.

http://www.amazon.com/John-Townsend-Cabinetmaker-Metropolitan-Publications/dp/030010717X

[Frank Drew]

I have seen a piece of "Amish" furniture (from actual Amish country, no less) that was at least partly made with thinly veneered particle board. In my opinion, anything that has a tendency to disintegrate if it gets a little water on it isn't "fine."

I agree; years ago I was asked to repair a broken butler's table (the kind with hinged flip-up pieces on the sides and ends). The top was veneered particle board and couldn't be repaired where a hinge had broken out. I'm perfectly comfortable saying that that wasn't what I would call fine furniture, although if it hadn't broken it would have given years of satisfaction to the owners. Sometimes veneer is reserved for the very best work, sometimes it's used to cover up cheap materials. I like dovetailed drawers but there are other acceptable methods of drawer construction in quality furniture; butt joints and staples, though, not so much.

Maybe it's enough to say that "fine furniture" implies best (or at least very good) methods and materials. As Ben Hatcher notes, wood selection also has to be a consideration; the very best furniture has the very best wood, IMO. Even though you can make a helluva good picnic table out of pressure treated pine, that's a different category.

[Bryan Cramer]

I agree with all the post above. "Fine Furniture" is defined mostly by personal beliefs but the most definate quality of true fine furniture is that it will be around for centuries no matter what the construction method or the materials. A good design will also be ageless. Will you see a partical board bookcase from Ikea lasting for over 100 years?

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm in agreement with most of the posts..............however..............

To me, pocket screws are out, unless they're the best method of making that joint. Attaching a table top to an apron is a good example of where a pocket screw could be considered the "best" method of doing that.

However, in my opinion a pocket screw wouldn't be the best way to make a visible joint as you would see the hardware.

I'm not picking on pocket screws, just using them as an example.

Just like dovetails, hand cut mean fine furniture to me. Cut them with a router and you may as well have just used finger joints due to the strength of modern adhesives. To me, using machine made dovetails seems like you're trying to pass off mass production methods as something better.

the only thing I'm certain of is that I wish the stuff I made was "finer"............Regards, Rod.

[Indranil Banerjie]

Great quote from the Proverbs! Another version goes like this:

Do you see someone skilled in their work?
They will serve before kings;
they will not serve before officials of low rank.
Proverbs 22:29

The one you quoted is better I think.
(New International Version)