Oil and Water: Stones that is

[Tony Wilkins]

When I started gathering my tools to do woodworking I got a couple of water stones for sharpening from Hida Tools. They work OK and I know practice makes better. However, watching videos and reading I find myself more drawn to oil stones.

What are the main differences in using oil stones to water stones? Why did you choose one or the other?

TIA,
Tony

BTW Don't remember off hand what grit the water stones are.

[Archie England]

I'd used oil stones all my life for knife sharpening. My grandmother's stone was terribly dished so it was useful only for smaller blades--but it worked. Once I started with hand planes, the oil stones didn't work as well. They were much slower (that being from more metal needed more stone surface for sharpening). Flatness began to mean something, too. I jumped on the smaller DMT red and blue diamond hones but they didn't awe me all that much. So, I jumped to scary sharp, which worked wonderfully to a point: that being the coarse point. I had terrible experience with dubbing the edge and even worse so at ripping or wrinkling my expensive higher grit paper. What started rather cheaply got expensive. Which lead me to Norton stones. They're good stones! And, my 1000, 4000, and 8000 stones worked nearly twice faster than my newer soft, hard, and translucent Arkansas stones. But the Norton 220 stone was abysmal, and I really didn't like the 1k either; so, I upgraded to better waterstones (See Stu @ Tools from Japan; Joel @ Tools for Working Wood; or Mark @ ChefKnivestoGo)--and these newest ones are blazing faster than my oil stones. No kidding!

There's nothing wrong with any of these "systems." They all work!!!!! On the right metals, they all work very well. What's the difference; not much. It's largely preference. With that said, I prefer the mess and product of waterstones way more than the others. YMMV. Oh, and I've got a wet grinder and medium/high grinders, too. Now I use my dry grinder to work out chips or radically regrind profiles, my wet grinder to speed up bevel settings, and my stones for 1000+ honing and polishing. I'm glad I have all three. YMMV. The one system that could replace the grinders and do a great job up to a point (I'm guessing about 5k) is a knife making 2" belt grinder. But they're pricey$$$.

BTW, restoring the blade backs (not the bevels) is what forced me to find a stone (or equivalent) venue. So, you by-pass some of this based upon your particular needs. Whatever, have fun!

[Jim Koepke]

It is because of their differences that my choice is to use both.

Water stones tend to be a bit faster. They also tend to be much softer.

Some of my practices would be called sacrilege by others. This is the part of water stones many do not like, the constant need to flatten. However, with much talk about cambering blades my stones mostly go without flattening. They usually get a few swipes with another stone to raise a slurry and to knock off a bit of the dishing.

What has been noticed is now my blades are automatically cambered when they are sharpened on my worn stones. So one side is kept flat for chisels. In the winter my shop doesn't have heat. On some days the water freezes making it impractical to use the water stones.

For the longest time oil stones seemed to not work well for me. A lot of this time was before discovering water stones. Most of this was due to not knowing many of the fine details of sharpening. One of my coworkers instructed me that with oil stones one has to push the blade into the stone "like they really meant it."

Water stones require a bit more finesse. Pushing into a water stone is a way to take out a big gouge of soft stone.

Speaking of gouges, it is safer to sharpen carving tools on oil stones. My discovery of this came after sharpening a big gouge on a water stone left a nice hollow in one of my stones.

Changing my technique on oil stones helped a bit, but the true epiphany came when some translucent novaculite was purchased for $1 at a rock and lapidary swap meet. This was the first time that my abilities were able to produce a hair cutting sharpness right off the stones.

My blades now tend to get a little stropping with some green compound after sharpening on either kind of stone.

So, what may be more important than the differences between the two types of stones is what is common between the two... Quality is important.

Sure, there are a few low quality pieces that have found their way into my possession. Those are my loaners or ones taken out to use on the dirty jobs, if they don't make it back, no problem.

[Jim Koepke]

Tony,

Your profile doesn't indicate a location. If you are near my area, send me a PM and we may be able to arrange a meeting so you can tryout the different types of stones.

If you are in a different area, you may live close to other members who would be willing to let you test drive their stones.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

I'm in Manhattan, KS right now. One thing that I haven't see is something you touched on Jim - stropping.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm in Manhattan, KS right now. One thing that I haven't see is something you touched on Jim - stropping.

That's pretty close to where my folks are from and some of my relatives still live in Junction City, KS.

There has been a little discussion here about stropping. Mostly the discussion has been on what material to use as a base, leather, hardwood, MDF et al.

The important thing to remember is to not push the blade on a strop. Also, limit the number of strokes. My suggestion second hand from Chris Pye's book is 10 strokes or less per side.

One good thing about stropping is if a blade starts feeling a little dull at the bench, a few strokes on the strop can renew the edge as long as it isn't too far gone.

Too much stropping and the blade's edge can get rounded, especially when using a soft medium like leather. There are different stropping compounds. My wife was shopping in a lapidary shop that had different stropping compounds including a green stick. The person behind the counter said it was the finest grit they had. It is for polishing stones to a glass finish, it puts a nice shine on plane and chisel blades… works great for me.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Went back and read the sharpening section in the books I have with me. Kept getting hit in the face with the wisdom of sticking with whatever system you have. So I will go with the water stones. I remembered that I have a Hida 1000 grit and a King S1 6000 grit.

One thing that was not so clear was the use of honing guides. Who uses honing guides and who does free hand and what would you recommend? If I got a guide I'm leaning heaving towards the Veritas one.

[Chris Griggs]

I hone freehand, but I definitely recommend starting with a guide, and then once you learn how to get a repeatably predictably sharp edge you have something to aim for if/when you learn freehand. While I think freehand honing is a valuable skill there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a guide. The Veritas guide is great, very precise and accurate, easy to use, andcan handle a number of things. However, I equally like the inexpensive side-clamping guides - once you make an angle setting jig they too easily give very repeatable results.

[Mel Fulks]

If you don't have a grinder I would use the guides at least when using a course stone for removing nicks. Most sharpening info mentions wire edges, but the better chisels don't get a wire edge. I recommend buying at least one old "cast steel" chisel as a baseline for knowing what a chisel can do. They are not the only good chisels but they can be bought cheaply. When I grind my old Butcher brand chisels there is no wire edge to remove. Then I use a 1200 grit waterstone for a quick honing, meaning under thirty seconds. Thanks to some true experts who post here Im getting more interested in stones,because they are interesting,not because I think I need them.

[Zach Dillinger]

Freehand is the only way to go. It is a flexible way to solve the sharpening problem and you will, sooner rather than later, wish you had the skill. So start now.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of my sharpening is done freehand.

My guide was made out of some parts on hand from the Veritas Mk II power sharpening system and a plastic roller made on my lathe. Mostly the guide comes in handy when a lot of metal needs to be removed.

It can also be like training wheels when starting to learn sharpening. Eventually your hands and arms become trained in holding an angle while moving back and fourth.

The eclipse is an inexpensive honing guide and with a little fettling (LN has a video on this) it can be used to great effect.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The "training wheels" for me to pick up freehand sharpening wasn't a roller guide, but rather hollow grinding. The hollow grind helped me "feel" the bevel better, and allowed me to focus more on the muscle memory of the motions involved and keeping my angle consistent. Part of this is because I tend to use a "stroke" in freehand honing that's entirely different than what I use with a roller guide.

The key for freehand honing for me was learning to lock my arms to my sides and letting my "core" do the majority of the motion - this helps me keep a consistent angle throughout my whole stroke.

My stones tend to stay flatter free-hand honing because I end up using more of them.

The roller guides still get used frequently, but freehand is the majority of my honing.

I feel like the a lot of the skills like this feed into each other - learning to freehand hone at a consistent angle, and feel plumb when drilling and being able to chop with a chisel at an angle all sort of feed back into each other some how - in general I feel like I'm a lot better at "feeling" an angle and maintaining it through a task after I properly sight it first, better at following a line and things like that, than I was say a year ago. Maybe it's just a matter of my motor skills being better with consistent practice and work. Sort of the same way that skateboarding when I was younger helped my balance and I was better able to walk along a difficult trail (or more often , in my life, make it to the back of the workroom by delicately walking over and around things into the little spaces of floor rather than clear a path.)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The "training wheels" for me to pick up freehand sharpening wasn't a roller guide, but rather hollow grinding.

Yes, for me as well. I purchased a very nice set of chisels from Lee Valley made from their new steels. There is a micro-bevel on the blade, so, if I want to free hand sharpen, then I need to hold the chisel at the correct angle to sharpen the micro-bevel. I need to just take the time to hollow grind and undo all that nice sharpening the chisel came with.... or use a guide.... or work very hard to find that micro-bevel angle by hand. I have been doing the later while I have been working, and it is sharp, but it is difficult for me.

I should probably look into stropping as well. I might be able to use some fine diamond paste for stropping (need to see how fine I have), or that white stuff that came with my Tormek. I have a large stash of leather, I should give it a try. Since you are getting started, if you want a piece of leather, drop me a PM, and I will cut a piece for you and drop it in the mail.

I think that the blade guide from Rob Cosman is just a piece of some wood like substance cut at an angle that you can use to train yourself to keep the blade at the correct angle. I have never tried it, but, it seems that you should be able to make something like that if you are really staying on the cheap. I own a few guides, my favourite is from Lee Valley (note that I have used it in a while).

One nice thing about sandpaper, is that it is cheap to start, and you probably have some just sitting around. Long term, I prefer other solutions, but to just try a few things, if you already have some paper, it is a quick and easy start.

[Chris Griggs]

Freehand is the only way to go. It is a flexible way to solve the sharpening problem and you will, sooner rather than later, wish you had the skill. So start now.


The "training wheels" for me to pick up freehand sharpening wasn't a roller guide, but rather hollow grinding. The hollow grind helped me "feel" the bevel better, and allowed me to focus more on the muscle memory of the motions involved and keeping my angle consistent. Part of this is because I tend to use a "stroke" in freehand honing that's entirely different than what I use with a roller guide.


Totally agree, but with one caveat. While the guide in no way helped me develop freehand technique it is helpful in that it can give a woodworker immediate success with sharpening. If you have someone to show you what a "sharp" woodworking tool is, I agree one might as well just learn freehand from the get go, BUT if you don't have someone to show you I think a guide with get you to SHARP with less practice. So i guess for me the benefit was that I knew I was free handing well when I could get a hollow ground blade as sharp and sharper as I could with a guide and a microbeveled blade.

If you don't start with a guide, and don't have anyone to show you what "sharp" is I think its going to be tougher to identify when you "get there". I think Zach is right that there is no reason to wait to learn to freehand, but I still think having a guide to get immediate success is very important (again, unless you have some instruction). A side clamping guide costs less than $15 and could save you a lot of frustration early on. Its not that free handing a hollow ground blade is particularly hard, but there is some learning curve and you will want to know when you have overcome it.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

... and don't have anyone to show you what "sharp" is I think its going to be tougher to identify when you "get there".

Very true.... I keep thinking that I should find someone local to where I am that claims to be a sharpening expert to see if what I am doing really is sharp. I am mostly self taught with no supervision other than by reading and reading and reading.... Oh, and some trying as well. I can certainly help a new person get started, but...

[mike holden]

"sharp" is NOT a destination, it is a journey.
Your sharpening will continue to get better throughout your career.

"sharp enough" is when the tool cuts with an acceptable amount of force, and leaves behind an acceptable surface.

As time passes, *YOUR* level of "acceptable" will change, BUT it will always be *YOUR* level.

As to what to use: "Rub steel on rock, get sharp"

Any abrasive harder than the steel will sharpen it.

The true test is how well the edge works for *YOU*

Mike
getting off soapbox now

[Mel Fulks]

I agree ,Mike. Except the tools matter too. Some of the things sold as chisels are worthless, not going to mention brands, but that fact needs to be understood by any who are struggling . Sometimes all that's needed is a used 5. or 10 dollar chisel ,not an expensive hone, not honing practice .Worthless means can't be ground to a 25 degree angle ,honed,and used without the edge quickly folding over. Some of them ARE that bad.

[David Weaver]

Mel makes a good point. a simple carbon steel chisel will become fairly sharp off of something like a soft or hard arkansas, a strop will easily convince it to let of any scuzz left on the edge.

But something like a 57 hardness marples chisel made of chrome vanadium or pretty much anything else similar will hold bits of its wire edge pretty firmly much further up in grit.

I just don't understand the point of extra alloying elements in cabinetmaking chisels. Well, I sort of do - it makes it easier to induction harden cheap tools in a fast process. Only only needs to watch the "how it's made" video of buck brothers chisels on youtube to see how fast the induction hardening actually occurs - it happens at speed on a high speed line.

[Jason Coen]

The more I sharpen the more I appreciate O-1.

[David Weaver]

re: the guide discussion above. If I plan to use a smoother and follow it up with nothing (no scraping, no sanding), I still use an eclipse guide to set up the edge - the same method charlesworth shows but usually without the ruler trick. I probably don't use it for anything else, but I don't know how else to get as good of an edge as fast as doing that. I have a different setup in terms of setting the iron projection, though, so that I can reset the angle for the final bevel without having to loosen the jig. It's just a cutoff cut to each angle I want the iron to be in the jig.

I still think for the finest sharpening of smoothers and the highest % of getting the finest edge (i.e., never having to try a second time), a jig is a useful aid as long as it's also quick. If you scrape your finished surface, then it doesn't make as big of a difference. Even a straight razor is ground essentially as a jig to aid in being consistent when sharpening. Nobody ever sharpens at any angle other than the angle between the edge and the spine.

[Jason Coen]

I still think for the finest sharpening of smoothers and the highest % of getting the finest edge (i.e., never having to try a second time), a jig is a useful aid as long as it's also quick. If you scrape your finished surface, then it doesn't make as big of a difference.

Agreed 100%. I freehand most everything except for my smoothers and whatever plane I happen to be using to shoot with.

[Tony Wilkins]

The more I sharpen the more I appreciate O-1.

I'd be interested in expanding the conversation to got beyond this. My only chisel is an A2 steel from Blue Spruce. I don't remember what Old Street/Clark and williams used in their planes but aside from a vintage try plane that's the planes I use.

So in terms of sharpening by you all's opinion do you prefer A2, O1, or hand forged (Barr).

[David Weaver]

You're likely using a combination of oil hardening (like O-1) and water hardening steels in your tools, with the older ones using water hardening steels.

I don't know what barrs are forged from, but they are probably forged from an oil hardening steel (like O-1). Water hardening steel has very little wear resistant alloying in it (meaning it doesn't have particles harder than oilstone abrasives), Oil hardening has some but not that much, and above that there is enough chromium in most steels that they will seem wear resistant on a properly cared-for fine oilstone.

I personally like water and oil hardening steels for chisels, after that, everything is a tradeoff if you can sharpen it and it's made properly. I can't see any reason why anyone who likes oilstones would need to have anything other than water and oil hardening steels in their shops.

[Tony Wilkins]

Forgot to include Veritas new PMV-11 (IIRC) steel that supposed to be the best of both worlds.

[David Weaver]

It is a good steel...from what I can tell with what little use I've had. It feels like a slightly more rubbery A2 on the stones. I haven't tried it on oilstones, but at the same time I don't live to sharpen A2 on oilstones, so I can't imagine that I would get much of it if I had only oistones. You can always buy one and try it, though.

It was certainly a lot less hard for the stones to deal with than is the gummy (but good) mujingfang high speed steel, which itself is probably a lot like M2.

[Christian Castillo]

If you're looking for a guide and want a quality guide thats easy to set up, get a Veritas MK II guide and dont look back. The guide is a useful set of training wheels when learning to freehand, if you mess up the bevel cause of your technique, you can go back to the guide and have it correct the deviation of the bevel. The way I started learning was to do all the sharpening work with the Veritas guide, then hone the blade freehand, its really hard to mess up a bevel with a 6000 - 8000 grit stone, there is just no way you can remove enough material with a honing stone before your arms fall off. You will gain confidence this way without messing anything up. As you gain confidence, go lower in grit with your freehand method untill you cease to need the guide. You don't need a grinder at all unless you see yourself correcting gross damage or trying to rehab old tools that look like they were smacked into concrete. You can change bevel angles or correct nicks by laying 2 or 3 feet of 80 grit psa ( or use adhesive spray) on a flat substrate and then go at it with the Veritas MK 2. Learn to get good edges on your Hida 1000 (I believe its similar to a king 1000) and King 6000, if you can't do it with those two, better stones wont help. Once you become proficient with the two stones, there are much (MUCH) better waterstones available, although the 1000/6000 are many knife sharpeners favorites.

Hida tool happens to carry Shaptons, Bester Stones, Naniwa Stones, so they have you covered when you do decide to upgrade.

[Tony Wilkins]

Just out of curiosity, what makes those stones an upgrade?

[Chris Griggs]

Just out of curiosity, what makes those stones an upgrade?

They dish less, cut faster, and have finer polishing stones. If you're just getting started and dollars count, keep using what you have. Upgrade in the future if you want, but its not a requirement, so my advice would be to wait and spend that money on something you REALLY need. If you want a finer more polished edge in the mean time, get some type good quality honing compound, paste, or powder and put it on a piece of mdf, plywood, hard tight grained wood or leather. A few swipes on that after you 6k will make a marked improvement (as long as you've done a good job honing honing on the 1k and 6k first)