Hammer A3 Users question

[Don Welch]

I considering a Hammer A3-41a jointer - yes, I know there are goods points for the combo machines but I want to put the delta cost of jointer vs. combo against a used 20 planer eventually. I'm in the Southeast, no local showroom and Fergus Cooke at felder was very helpful in providing a couple of A3-3a owners for contact but they are exactly nearby either. My thanks to Ralph Butts for the recent photos and comments in another thread - wish I'd seen that thread before I was at Electro Impact in October. Why the A3-41a over just getting a 31 and ignoring the planer? Longer tables and a perception of increased stability from the longer heavier tables. So the question is - for those using A3-41 or 31 machines - have you also used older cast iron type machines and if so, do you have comments on the stability of the infeed - outfeed tables in alignment, deflection under load [reasonable loads not flopping timbers on the machine], tweaking after closing and latching the A3 tables?

[David Kumm]

Dan, I'm assuming jointer only. Hammer makes great machines. I don't own one but have seen them at IWF and owned Felder stuff over the years. They make great machines but not comparable to older cast iron 16" jointers until you get to the Format series. 3-4K gets you the best jointers ever made- short of Martin- used. As good as Hammer is it is not in the same league as the older Northfield, Porter, Oliver, Yates etc. Put a vfd on them and you will be running an 88-96" table machine with a 4.5-5" cutterhead. Euro jointers are only slightly more as they tend to be newer. If I misunderstood your question- disregard and delete. Dave

[Mike Hollingsworth]

After owning two combos I can tell you that they are sufficient, but after using damon's giant monster jointer i found that nothing beats a dedicated 1 ton machine that never gets adjusted.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I have owned another manufacturers combo machine for 9 years, there are things about the machine I love, like the Tersa head, the quality of cut and the 410mm of width... But the one hot topic you have hit on is the stability or lack of stability on the latch side of the Combo machine.. With a dial indicator, I have confirmed that I can easily make the machine .010 ~ .020 out of co-planer just by the adjusting tightness of the latching mechanism..

So having said that, if I had the space, one big honking jointer and planer would be the ideal situation from a reliably of adjustment point of view..I am afraid it's just the Achilles heel of combo machines...

[Don Welch]

Thanks Robert. That type of input speaks exactly to the primary concern I have with this configuration - I'm not certainly knocking the machines in general because I see many good reviews on A3 combos, but without laying hands on one this seems to be a key difference between the combo jointer configuration and conventional wedge beds or parallelogram types.

[ian maybury]

Hi Don. I have an A3 410 (not the latest model) which I've been setting up for the past few weeks. The not so little matter of loss of alignment seems to be mostly to do with setup and/or table flatness. My guess is that in the end a properly set up combination jointer/thicknesser won't be far off a dedicated jointer in terms of repeatability.

The tables themselves are probably as solid as any - 70mm thickness including the depth of the honeycomb reinforcing webbing, with a web thickness of 12mm +. There are no doubt heavier tables and machine chassis available at higher price points, but it seems stable. Not sure what would happen if the machine was moved around a lot on an uneven floor.

Both of the top tables are supported in four places - by two adjustable height threaded jacking screws with nuts on the hinge side, and by two mushroom headed support bolts on the latch side. To get a stable set up it's necessary to get the 4 supports aligned so that they all make contact at once. Any gap over the head of especially the support beside the locking lever will for sure cause twisting as the lock is done up.

Flatness of the table comes into it, in that if the unloaded table is not absolutely flat there will always be the temptation to use the height adjustments and the locking mechanism to pull it as flat as is possible.

So far as I can tell (and even with making moderate use of the above) mine seems over repeated latchings to hold table height settings versus the knives to within a thou or two - provided that is the tables are locked down. If not it wouldn't be too hard for them to move out by the sort of amounts that Robert mentions - but bear in mind that a lot of this can be induced by incorrect setting of the height adjustments described above. I haven't tested whether more or less locking force makes a difference once the table is pulled down on to all four support points, but since the force bears almost directly on a support it shouldn't be all thats sensitive.

What's not so clear is just how flat the tables on these Hammer machines normally are. It's the first time I got into setting a jointer using measurements, and mine seem to be within about 0.005in. Which depending on how you read the numbers is well within the Hammer spec., but not as flat as is ideal. Don't know how that compares to other machines....

ian

[Robert LaPlaca]

Just to be clear I am not casting any dispersions on the Hammer machine, I am just informing the potential consumer (Don) to inquire how the latch side of the machine is tightened, hopefully the manufacturer in question (Hammer/Felder) has a more 'binary' latching mechanism (aka. either locked or unlocked) and doesn't have a grey area latching mechanism as my machine does and it's not a lightweight combo either..

Hey I think the Euro combo jointer/planers are the best thing since sliced bread.. But the dual functionally comes with some cost..

[ian maybury]

No problem Robert, I wasn't intending to defend. Put in other language hinged tables must introduce another variable in terms of alignment, and if the chassis is not solid and/or the supports properly adjusted they are for sure likely to cause problems/inconsistency. I can't even say how a hinged set up might compare to a traditional US style jointer with fixed tables, but for sure the fixed set up has to have advantages. The advantage of the combo is presumably the saving in floor space.

Table flatness or otherwise is a potential issue common to both types of machine - in that if the tables are not flat there will be problems and inconsistencies regardless of the format. My impression based mostly on a previous Robland combo as well which I had for about 10 years (it's early days yet with the A3 410) is that hinged tables deliver stable performance provided the machine is well engineered, and properly set up. What I can't say with any certainty (not having measured alignments until recently) is how much if any variability the hinge introduces.

ian

[Jim Neeley]

I have owned another manufacturers combo machine for 9 years, there are things about the machine I love, like the Tersa head, the quality of cut and the 410mm of width... But the one hot topic you have hit on is the stability or lack of stability on the latch side of the Combo machine.. With a dial indicator, I have confirmed that I can easily make the machine .010 ~ .020 out of co-planer just by the adjusting tightness of the latching mechanism..

So having said that, if I had the space, one big honking jointer and planer would be the ideal situation from a reliably of adjustment point of view..I am afraid it's just the Achilles heel of combo machines...

Robert,

I do not contest that the stability of high quality dedicated machines that do not require hinges and latches are more accurate without the added movement that permits their movement. The question is the level of significance that makes when working with wood, since wood has a high level of seasonal movement. In the example on page 2 of this pdf, http://workshoppages.com/WS/Articles/Wood-Movement-Charts.pdf , a 24" piece of flat sawn white oak, in detroit, can expect to have 9/32" of seasonal movement.

Assuming a half-size piece would have 1/2 the movement, we're talking .14" movement in a 12" board. Then compare this with the .01-.02" values you state and decide if the amount and direction of movement are significant to you.

I'd prefer large top-quanity separate machines but do not have the room. For me, given the decision between separate planers and jointers to fit in the space of an 800# 16" A3-41 Hammer combo or the combo itself, I'm saving for the Hammer upgrade. Besides, I'll be using a hand plane to finish my wood's surface anyway. Just my $0.02.. YMMV. :)

[David Kumm]

There is a big difference between wood movement and machinery movement. A jointer table doesn't need to go off much before you won't get a straight board anymore. Having said that, J-P have improved over the years. Most of the adjustment problems were limited to smaller 12" machines but the Euro machines have pretty much eliminated that problem if you are fairly careful when you use the machine. It would be a different story if you had several employees banging around on the tables but really isn't an issue in a one man shop. That is the price for the space savings as no one will argue the combo is superior to equally created separates. The Hammer of today is much better than the older Hammer but I'd still take an older 700 or 7 series due to the structure. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I replaced a General jointer with an A3-31 four years ago.

No issues, love the machine, it has retained its accuracy, and I do loan out my shop one weekend per month.

Was the General a good jointer? You bet. Would a 12" General jointer fit in my shop? Nope.

And the Hammer produces a better finish than the General, and it has quick change knives.................Rod.

[Don Welch]

I appreciate the inputs folks - good points made all round and in a civil format to boot. Yes, this will be a one man shop application - we'll it's for my son starting out after university as he builds his skills, so Dad may get a little time in occasionally. Now to decide...