Almost 8 years later, problem still not solved: motion sensor

[Todd Burch]

Although, I must admit, I haven't been working on it either.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?5774-New-quot-Tool-quot-for-the-shop&p=42268#post42268

In summary, my homemade alarm system doesn't work. When I energize the circuit, my alarm bell goes off. I don't want the alarm bell to go off until motion is actually sensed.

Anyone got any ideas? Is a motion sensor made that will work like I want it to work? I don't know the proper terms to search, or what this behavior is properly called.

Thanks, Todd

[Dan Hintz]

Your "schematic" is a little painful to read, but my guess would be you've hooked up the sensor output to the controlling relay incorrectly. It should turn on the controlling relay only when its sensor detects motion, so the output should enable to relay as if it was controlling a lightbulb. Place your alarm bell relay into the circuit as if it was the lightbulb.

[Todd Burch]

If I understand my wiring... there is no controlling relay (unless it is "inside" the sensor). I'm just using light switches. Please elaborate.

I could wire the alarm in just like a light bulb, however, that wouldn't fix anything, as the lights also turn on (momentarily) when the motion sensor is activated.

[Clark Harbaugh]

You need a control relay of some type to make this work. The motion detector will trip the control relay, which in turn sounds the alarm. Motion detectors are normally closed, meaning that the relay that is built in is always closed until tripped. Typical alarm panels look for a closed circuit to go open in an alarm condition. Since you have to buy a control relay, you might think about a timer relay. When it is triggered, it will stay active for a preset amount of time.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Todd,

They make motion and heat sensor activated lights that take 2 bulbs. I use them on my shop and on my carport. Why not use one of those type lights, wire it to plug into a switched outlet, leave one bulb out and screw in one of those socket adapters if they are still available. Then plug an extension cord into that outlet. Use that to power the bell and 2nd light.....

[Dustin Brown]

Do you have a model number on the motion sensor?

It's either one of 2 things. One, the motion sensor may have a charged output when no motion is being sensed instead of no charge at rest. Second possibility would be that you may have the wrong relay or as Dan suggested, have it hooked up incorrectly.

Ideally the motion sensor will output voltage when motion is sensed. In this scenario you will be using a normally open relay or have it hooked up in the normally open configuration if it is dual mode. This way when the relay senses motion it charges the output, then triggers the relay coil to close the circuit and charge the alarm.

[Todd Burch]

I'll get the part # shortly.

Partial theory of operation: (I need to check other use cases - it's been too long since I've jacked with it)

- When single pole A switch is down, everything is off.

- B and C are 3-way switches.

- With A on (up), B down, and C up, lamp 1 and lamp 2 light up. Working as desired. I did this so when I am behind the shop, I can turn on C (exterior switch) and my rear flood lights will turn on, assuming A is on, to get light back there. It has the benign affect of also turning on lamp 1, but that's no big deal.

- intent: when motion sensor is activated, turn both lights on and ring alarm bell. The lights work as expected, with the additional (undesired) behavior that when A is initially turned on, both lamps turn on (for a short delay, controlled by the motion sensor**) and bell rings.

I don't remember the other combinations - I'll test later and report back.

** I know the motion sensor is causing this short "on" condition, as it has an on/off switch itself. When it is off, the bell doesn't ring and the lamps don't turn on when A is turned on.

(I actually thought it was a pretty good diagram!)

[Sam Layton]

Todd,

I am not sure that I understand a homemade alarm system. You can purchase a real alarm system, and install it yourself for very little money. Check out www.homesecuritystore.com (http://www.homesecuritystore.com) look for the Ademco alarms. Ademco is a professional alarm system that you can install yourself. You can go from very simple to very complex, your choice.

Sam

[Todd Burch]

Yes, I suspect you can.

This all started when my buddy, who lived in the neighborhood @ the time, and was always wanting to stop by when I was in the shop, asked me to install a motion sensor and an outside light, so that if he was driving by with an intent to stop, and he saw my motion activated light on, he would now he could stop and come in.

It then grew to this "alarm system" as I was installing the lights. Now, it's a challenge to determine why it does not work.

BTW, I used to work with a lot of service techs, and several of them had built their own alarm systems for their homes. This was in the '70s that they were built. These were very sophisticates systems, using switches and relays and timers, etc. Much beyond my grasp.

I loosely call mine an "alarm system".

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Todd
My outdoor motion sensor with only turns on lights, has three connections. Power, ground, and switched, lights operate off switched. Tom

[Alan Schaffter]

My motion sensors have two modes that are both controlled by a regular wall switch. That may be your problem.

When the wall switch is first turned on, the security lights will turn on and stay on for about 5 min. then they go out, and are now in the auto "detect" mode: motion detected- the lights go on; lack of motion for XX seconds (selectable)- the lights go out.

However, once the lights are in the auto detect mode, if you cycle the wall switch, off and then right back on, the lights will turn on and stay on until you do a manual reset or the sun comes up.

[Todd Burch]

Alan, I don't think my switch is that smart.

[Tom Stenzel]

All the motion switches I've dealt with have worked like the one Alan has.

When power is applied to the motion detector, they are closed for a period of time, the ones I have are adjustable. They will close for that same amount of time when the motion switch detects motion.

Disconnect the bell and just use the lights to find out if that's how your switch is working. If it is, my suggestion would be to leave the power to the motion switch all the time, and move switch A so that it interrupts the power to the bell.

Second thoughts:

This might not be practical. When you intend to leave the shop, switch A will have to be somewhere out of the view of the motion detector or you will trip the motion detector as you enable the bell. Also you have to have been out of the motion detector's view long enough for the motion detector to time out, and leave after turning on switch A without tripping the alarm. You might be able to work out the problems but the result might be more aggravation than it's worth.

-Tom Stenzel

[Todd Burch]

My sensor has a switch (the bottom square), so I get the function that Tom and Alan have, although via push button and not switch flipping. My switch is here:

http://www.elliottelectric.com/Products/Detail.aspx?v=CWD&c=6109W

Initial position when energized = in motion sensing mode with motion circuit activated for ~30 seconds or so.
Press once: lights full on
Press twice: lights off, no sensing. ("off")
Press thrice - back in initial position.

I've been studying my diagram, and I have to apologize, but my written description of how it works was wrong (It's been too long - failing memory I guess). Here it the wiring diagram again for ease of reference.

246733

Plus, I've been calling B and C "3-way" switches, when in fact they are "2-way" switches. The lug on the left will connect to either the upper right lug (switch up) or lower right lug (switch down).

Theory of op:

This is either a "security system" that, when motion is sensed, will turn on lights, or, ring a bell, but it can't do both at the same time per the wiring diagram (and my test - see below)

When A is energized, what happens next depends on B.

If B is up, that means the lights will light when motion is sensed.
If B is down, the alarm will ring when motion is sensed.

If A is up, and B is either up or down, when C is up, the lights will turn on and the alarm bell is not affected by C.

The problem, then, is that when B is down, and A is energized, the activation of the ~30 second time delay from the motions sensor causes the bell to ring. This is what I want to avoid.

A few months ago, I took my bell down, but I just went out and hooked up a temp light <placeholder> to the alarm receptacle. (The alarm was so loud, that I never did let it cycle for the full 30+ seconds during the initial startup. It's about a 12" Edwards Electric bell from an old school.

Here is what I learned.

It's working exactly like I want it to - as wired - except for the initial time delay of the closed circuit of the sensor. When I have B up, and I turn A on, I get lights for 30+ seconds. With B down and I turn A on, the bell rings (my placeholder bell, anyway).

However, I never went this far before. After the 30+ seconds of "on", the motion sensor opens its circuit, and the lights, or bell <placeholder>, goes off, and then, any motion will turn the lights or bell on.

Now, here's the good part.

If I have B up (for lights) and turn A on, I get lights on. Once the lights go off (30+ seconds later) I can switch B to down, and the next motion that occurs will set the bell off. I can live with this. Although, a better motion sensor that didn't have a "start up time delay" would be faster upon leaving the shop.

Phew! Solved. (enough for today, anyways).

Thank you all so much! Todd