Changing FWW

[Pat Megowan]

I started a recent thread on FWW's poor advice on handplane tuning, and with others have been encouraging the editorial staff (esp. Matt Kenney and Asa Chistiana) to remedy this situation (and save folks potential grief and $$ on screwed up planes). There is a very high profile response that will appear before long. In the mean time, one of the editors offered that:

more voices of concern = more vigorous response from FWW

We grouse about FWW in decline; here's how we can help change that:

Fine Woodworking Editorial: 800-309-8955; fw@taunton.com

Calling is no stress and super effective, just ask for Matt or Asa, or let Betsy find you a suitable person. Email is also effective. It doesn't need to be long, they just need to know we care.

As a community based magazine, they want to know--let's help 'em keep the quality high.

Apologies for the activist tone, I'm working on it in counseling;-).

Pat

[george wilson]

Well,if you can also do something about some of Pop.Woodworking's articles,full of misinformation,we might be making progress!! I quit taking that magazine because they sometimes let amateurs write articles. There's nothing there for me. And,when I pointed out errors,I got no response,except for 1 guy who said he only worked with machines,and couldn't comment about hand tools.

There is also the clique factor. I think some magazines don't like those not in their clique stealing their thunder. That's just my impression,for what it's worth. The U.S. Army didn't like the advanced,superior tank suspension that an outsider (Christy sp.?) invented,adopting a "not invented here" attitude. Before WWII,he sold his patent in Europe,and the Germans and Russians built tanks much better than ours with his patents. That sort of thing . Today,we do use that system,now that the old patents are long expired.

[Jim Koepke]

The U.S. Army didn't like the advanced,superior tank suspension that an outsider (Christy sp.?) invented,adopting a "not invented here" attitude.

I have known members of the Gatlin family whose ancestors changed their name from Gatling for similar reasons. In their case it was due to a disgrace over some thinking Richard J. Gatling had southern sympathies. This was never proven.

Great people are often demonized when they have more sense or vision than those around them.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Back to Pat's point.

I will send them an email, thanks for being an activist.

Without activists, there would never be any activity.

jtk

[Jonathan McCullough]

http://xkcd.com/386/

[Pat Megowan]

Well,if you can also do something about some of Pop.Woodworking's articles,full of misinformation,we might be making progress!! hat's just my impression,for what it's worth.

Ha! I know what you mean, but just this article is backing up the shop, I'll have to leave PWW for others.

Still, if mags publish and knowledgeable readers grow discouraged and drift away it's a death spiral for the mag and for the craft; more folks will learn poor practices, then share them with friends and forums.

Now that I know they need feedback--and how easy it is to give--I'll respond more often.

Fine Woodworking Editorial: 800-309-8955; fw@taunton.com Lay it on 'em, gang!

Thanks Jim, every contact helps.

Pat

[Jim Matthews]

The problem isn't so much with the editorial staff, it's the scope of readers.

When noobs like myself get started, it's the most beautifully photographed, stepwise monthly.
The fact is that there are really only six types of projects most homeowners will make (or at least I can think of)

Chairs/Casework/Tables/Bedframes/Display boxes/Laminated tops

After that, there's just so much in the way of refinement to bring across.

I applaud FWW for bringing in newer methods with simple jigs.
I fault their dependence on power tools.

When I was shown that it is possible (although considerably slower) to make furniture by hand, it was a moment of liberation.

FWW should have three tiers available - rank beginner/advancing enthusiast/accomplished builder.
It's tough to be all things to all readers.

I do wish they would concentrate more on the artifacts and less on the artisan.
Given that the latest Tommy Mac article is just the NBSS student tool box, his stuff is a let down.

I don't need accessible, I need my skills tested, thank you very much.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'm finishing up a piece that will be included in Popular Woodworking Magazine next year. I guarantee a similar piece hasn't been in the magazine, or Fine Woodworking for that matter, to date. I can't hope to teach you anything, George, but I hope you'll at least get a kick out of seeing something new!

[Dave Anderson NH]

All hobbiest magazine publishing suffers from the same problems no matter what the hobby. Nowdays first and foremost is the need to compete with the internet. Add to that spiraling publishing (printing) and mailing costs and life has become very difficult in the last few years.

More to the subject however is the constant challenge of keeping long time readers satisfied as their skills advance while providing for appropriate matter for those new to the hobby and seeking basic instruction and knowledge. A former magazine editor-in-chief friend told me long ago that the half life of a subscriber was usually around 3 years. This accounts for much of the repetitive articles you see on choosing a ____, how to cut dovetails, etc, etc. I suspect that editors tear their hair out trying to find new authors and new approaches to the same types of articles. To us the readers though it just seems like the same old stuff over and over. On the issue of accuracy of the article in question I can't comment since I dropped my subscription to FWW about 4-5 years ago. I still think it is a good publication, it just no longer met my needs.

All I intended to get across is the idea that publishing fresh information and making the decision as to what is or is not accurate is musch more difficult than many believe. As an author, how well would you like haveing your article criticized for many things that are a matter of opinion? Equally, how efficient and complete can your article be when presented with restrictive limitations on length? I for one know that my skin is not thick enough to withstand a constant barrage of criticism.

[george wilson]

I agree Dave,but there is a difference between opinion and fact. And,if the clique doesn't want to respond,I'll read elsewhere. By the way,the criticism I submitted was my one and only one about one article,written by a person who would not have qualified as a first year apprentice in the trades program in the museum. With all due respect for magazines,if you don't like criticism,it's kind of like get out of the kitchen if it's too hot.

I was in public for 15 years,so I have some idea of what it is like dealing with them. With all the beautiful work hanging in the shop,some one would occasionally focus on the fact that I bumped a SMALL carving tool with my wrist a few times,and that was all they could dwell upon. Another time,an old duff with a bad attitude asked "What's that little plane made of?" Brass. "I thought only the Chinese could cast brass!!" "I guess ALL those books I read were WRONG!!!!". I couldn't find words to deal with that fool. He was bullying me with his age(which I think he felt gave him the semblance of having attained knowledge.) I forgot brass candle sticks,brass cannon,and the Geddy Foundry down the street!! What can you do with such profound ignorance? It could get rough,for sure,but this is the risk when you are dealing with the public. I dealt with it. The magazine has to deal with it,too.

I think a magazine that puts itself forward as a reliable source of information in a field like wood or metal working has a duty and an obligation to not mislead the readers who PAY to read it. It needs those on its staff who are qualified to look over articles and correct them if necessary. If the staff hasn't a person qualified in a special area,it should not undertake to publish such articles.

I saw several very incorrect articles in a metal working magazine years ago. When I contacted the editor,his reply was that he "Had not labored in the vineyard!!!" WHY was he publishing this magazine? To sucker those less informed into paying money to read t? That's just not right.

Zach: I'm sorry,I won't see your article since I quit subscribing to PWW some time ago. I still subscribe to FWW. Got to see SOMETHING about my interests!!!:) Maybe I'll someday write for them. So far,the spirit hasn't moved me,and I'm a BAD photographer!!:)

[Tony Shea]

I also agree that Pop WW has not been as good as it has been in the past. I think both magazines are spending too much time and space on the WW that is just starting out. It seems like it's article after article of how to cut a dovetail, M/T joint, I can do that projects, etc. I want to see a bit more in the way of technical information aimed at the WW who's well beyond all that stuff. I'm learning new stuff about WW everyday and none of it seems to be coming out of these magazines anymore. My favorite part of FWW is the reader's gallery which I wish there was more of in both magazines. I love seeing the work that is being put of there by all type's of WW's. I think Woodwork magazine is the probably the best magazine out there at the moment. They don't have quit enough how to articles but I do like reading about other woodworkers and how they got where they are. Actually the last Pop WW was similar and was the first Pop WW mag I have ever read from front to back.

[george wilson]

I couldn't agree more,Tony. Every magazine and coffee table book out there is geared towards cutting your first dovetail. There are obviously more beginners out there to sell magazines to than there are advanced craftsmen. That has to be it.

[Tony Shea]

I guess that's true George but what happens to the all the craftsmen that is well beyond wanting to see how to cut a dovetail joint. They apparently stop wanting to read magazines aimed at their craft, or so the publishing companies think. I mean how many beginning WW's are there every other month?

[Larry Frank]

I can not even imagine trying to publish a wood working magazine. You will never be able to satisfy everyone and you need to satisfy enough to stay in business. I am certain that a magazine that is for the beginner or early woodworker would never satisfy George. He has probably seen and done everything.

I would love for a magazine to be 100% accurate and only publish things I am interested in at my skill level. This will just never happen. If it was that way, I would not be able to afford it.

I look for a magazine that shows a few new tools, fair tool reviews, a project that I want to build or modify and maybe some ideas on jigs. The one thing that bothers me is that there is a clear connection between some magazines and certain supplier of woodworking supplies. How do you trust their reviews?

[Mark Wyatt]

The only woodworking magazine I look forward to anymore is "The Gristmill" published by the Midwest Tool Collector Association. The articles are about tools, but at least they are educational and informative.

[Bobby O'Neal]

There has to be research telling them that the best way to sell is to attract noobs. They aren't stupid and they need profit so they print what they believe will sell.

It seems the more commercial a facet of woodworking gets, they more watered down it has to be. That's why 90% of my content is sought on the internets and I wish WoodWorks still ran.

[george wilson]

Larry,there is no one who has done everything. I was fortunate in my career to have the opportunity to be exposed to many high level craftsmen,collectors, and conservators. I was called upon to make a very diverse array of things of many types. It was all good. I have always been interested in many things anyway. Not the kind of education you can get in schools. Volumes of very interesting magazines could be filled with the arts and sciences of conservation alone. There would be such a small audience for it,it would fail very quickly. That's just the way it is.

I just feel lucky to have been in the golden years of Historic Trades in the largest outdoor museum in the World. I really was hired just when the trades program began to greatly expand and improve. Too much is going to the actors now,many of us old timers feel.

[Dan Hahr]

I don't have much to say other than to say that Fine Woodworking should be geared to those who are past the DIY stage. Not that they shouldn't read it, but the bulk of the articles should be written at a level above beginner. Anyone notice that PWM was only about 3/32" thick last month? They should call it the thin kerf edition. Had two complete projects... yes the pages are thinner, but really thin...Don't think I'll be renewing either. Dan

[george wilson]

I must agree,Dan. The title IS "Fine Woodworking",not "My first dovetail",or whatever. I enjoy the pictures of member's projects the best,though some of them are ghastly. Some are good. Next,I like the advertisements!!

[Josh Rudolph]

I apologize if a come across as brash, but these threads tend to get me going.

I used to subscribe to just about all of the more common magazines on the shelf. My experience level has increased over time like most people and with that I am much more interested in so many more aspects of the craft.

When I started a few years ago, I read the magazines cover-to-cover. As my experience grows, I want to know the details of doing something special. The details of a project can really make it stand out.
I want to know more about intricate inlay and sand shading. I want to know about certain periods of furniture, what things I can look for to identify a style of a piece. I can keep going. Knowing these types of things is the knowledge I need to improve myself and my craft. Magazines are the perfect medium to deliver this, but frankly I don't think they will pull their heads out of their rear ends long enough to see or listen to what people really want in these magazines.
Sawmill Creek is an absolutely free resource among many other forums. Every few months there is always a thread that will pop up over the quality of the content in these magazines. I never see any editor from any of these magazines chime in to those discussions and engage the people who are more than willing to share their thoughts. They (the magazines) spend more time crunching numbers to appeal to their advertisers and letting the bean counters control the bottom line. These magazines continue to shrink or become chocked full of more advertising.

I do not feel I need to call up any publication to tell them I think their magazine is declining.

When I stop subscribing, that should be their first indication. That is the precise time that if they truly cared about appealing to you as a reader, they would be on the phone with you asking why you stopped subscribing. They certainly have the time to call and ask me to resubscribe, they have never asked why I left. Another thing they need to understand about repeating the same basic how-to's every single edition is that we are obviously the type who reads about the craft. If we are buying a magazine about woodworking, you could bet your paycheck that a large majority of us have already purchased a book or two on the basics of Woodworking. Heck one of the highest recommended starting woodworking books out there is Tage Frid's teaches woodworking. You can buy the book now for less than $12, there are few if any subscriptions you can get for that! I own it....I learned a lot of the basics from that one book.

You can have a magazine that appeals to all skill levels....if you build it, they will come. You can keep your "I can do that" articles while having much more motivating and inspiring articles, stuff that I couldn't do in 100 years. When I am inspired, I am motivated to try something or learn something new. If I read something and feel I can do everything in that magazine, I feel I have wasted my time and more importantly to the publisher...my money. And trust me....I am not very good at the craft, I just feel the magazines have declined to that level.

I try to learn something new every day, not always in woodworking, but it is even better if it is in woodworking. I am willing to listen to anyone regardless of your experience level. My Dad always taught me that you can learn something from anyone. I just wish these magazines/publishers would stop and take the time and learn something from the people who support them.

[Chris Griggs]

I've got to admit that despite being a relative novice (been this about 4 years) even I'm getting bored with FWW (I maintain an online membership). So many of the techniques are just the most basic steps (e.g. "cutting you first dovetail). When it comes to techniques/specific skills there is little that is put into the context of a larger project.

I can still use some relatively basic instruction but it would be nice if they at least elaborated on or put it in context with a series of techniques to actually create something. For example,Sean Hugto has a fabulous article (http://inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Making%20a%20frame%20and%20panel%20door.html) on Derek's site on making frame-and-panel doors with a mitered bead. Though its probably too basic for some folks, it is a much better article than I've seen in any magazine and from and education prospective is more advanced because it applies/combines a series of techniques to create something. I guess what I'm saying is I would like to see more "how something was designed and constructed" and less "here's how you cut a mortise with a hollow chisel mortiser"

On the other end of the spectrum, in regards to the full projects shown in the mags, I would love to see more detail in the articles on the builds. Lately, it seems like like they deliberately leave things out to prevent you from building the piece if you do not buy the full-size plan. I'm not saying that the magazine should be giving full-sized plans away - I'm glad they offer them and they should by all means earn money from them, but at the same time I get miffed when I'm looking at an article of a particular project and key information to the build seems to be left out. Its not even that I want to copy it exactly as I prefer to do some of my own designing, but if I'm basing a design on something that inspired me in an article I'd like to have an accurate depiction of how the inspiration was made. Also, I'd like to see projects that are more focused on a teaching something specific be in joinery, construction, or design - i guess what I'm saying is I'd there to be a clear reason why a certain project was chosen.

It probably sounds like I don't like FWW at all anymore, which isn't the case. I've got enough to learn still that it still has something to offer me. For example, if I'm trying to design something, lets say a blanket chest, its nice to be able to look at all the past blanket chest articles to see various way to design and construct them. I guess it just disturbs me a bit that even at my novice level there is already and awful lot that isn't very useful to me.

BTW, I would really be interested in knowing what type of articles some of the more advanced woodworkers around here would particularly like to see in the mags; not just what folks don't like. Thoughts?

[Adam Petersen]

Magazines and the internet are how I learned how to do woodworking. I personally am still growing. I think Wood is the simplest of the magazines along with Woodsmith. I like reading FWW and PWW because they have some more articles to read. I care less about plans or designs, I'd rather read about woodworkers and certain techniques. I like reading the history of things and seeing peoples designs. That is why I like these two magazines more then the others. I like the masters class, and readers projects portions of FWW. I like Arts and Mysteries and several of the other areas of PWW. My favorite read though, by far, is the quarterly issue Best of Woodworks magazine. It, to me, is a great read on different aspects of woodworking, design, artists, etc. I love that read. And I don't just thumb through it and put it down, I read it cover to cover and it actually lasts me a week or two.

[Chris Griggs]

I definitely like the same things about FWW and PWW as you do Adam and like you I've pretty much learned everything so far from mags, books, and the internet - i've learned quite a bit on this forum.

I currently have a subscription to Wood that someone gave me as a gift. It occasionally has some nice shop setup/storage projects, but really the entire magazine seems to be plywood and biscuits. I typically look at it for about 5 minutes and then toss it aside. They seem to be very clearly going for a different clientele than FWW and PWW which despite some of the things I wish they would improve, are VASTLY superior (to me anyway) than Wood.

[Andy Margeson]

Although many of us have misgivings about it, the magazine industry is on the way out. For the reasons alluded to here, woodworking is not particularly suited to the magazine format anyway. The future is websites, blogs, DVDs, online instruction and reviews . . . The magazines know that and are trying to transition but it's tough. With the internet, anybody can be a publisher.

At my local Barnes and Noble, the woodworking magazines on the shelf shrink each month and are placed so you can hardly reach them without getting down on your hands and knees. The woodworking books have shrunk from one entire rack to a single shelf. There are multiple reasons for this, but I think one is that well done video is extremely beneficial for a subject like woodworking.

I personally am going to miss physical magazines and newspapers, even though I realize I'll get the same content on my tablet computer, but that's progress.

[Zach Dillinger]

Although many of us have misgivings about it, the magazine industry is on the way out. For the reasons alluded to here, woodworking is not particularly suited to the magazine format anyway. The future is websites, blogs, DVDs, online instruction and reviews . . . The magazines know that and are trying to transition but it's tough. With the internet, anybody can be a publisher.

At my local Barnes and Noble, the woodworking magazines on the shelf shrink each month and are placed so you can hardly reach them without getting down on your hands and knees. The woodworking books have shrunk from one entire rack to a single shelf. There are multiple reasons for this, but I think one is that well done video is extremely beneficial for a subject like woodworking.

I personally am going to miss physical magazines and newspapers, even though I realize I'll get the same content on my tablet computer, but that's progress.

I may participate in online forums, maintain a blog and website, but I absolutely hate reading anything on a screen. It is literally torturous to me, but it must be done. I never buy ebook versions of things. I print pdfs of long out of print reference works. Screens suck.

To paraphrase Capulet, "Bring me my bound material. My paper, I say. New technology is come, and it flourishes its screen in spite of me".

[Todd Burch]

What Josh said.

I quit subscribing to all WW mags about 15 years ago. Haven't missed one of them.

From the other thread, I did watch the Tommy Mac video. OMG. That is not what I would call "publishable quality", much less "FWW caliber" material. The guy doesn't have the vocabulary of an 8th grader. I lost track counting the pronouns. First time I've ever seen him. Hopefully the last. For a self-uploaded youtube video - fine. For FWW to highlight it - wrong. If they paid for it - pickin's must be slim.

But perhaps I'm also giving too much credence to "FWW" here.

[Peter Pedisich]

I may participate in online forums, maintain a blog and website, but I absolutely hate reading anything on a screen. It is literally torturous to me, but it must be done. I never buy ebook versions of things. I print pdfs of long out of print reference works. Screens suck.

To paraphrase Capulet, "Bring me my bound material. My paper, I say. New technology is come, and it flourishes its screen in spite of me".

I feel the same way.

[george wilson]

I really prefer a book,too. But,over the past years,I can't read a book much without getting very sleepy. I don't know why. With the new lenses in my eyes,my eyesight is fine,though I wear closeup glasses.

[David Weaver]

What Josh said.
From the other thread, I did watch the Tommy Mac video. OMG. That is not what I would call "publishable quality", much less "FWW caliber" material. The guy doesn't have the vocabulary of an 8th grader. I lost track counting the pronouns. First time I've ever seen him. Hopefully the last. For a self-uploaded youtube video - fine. For FWW to highlight it - wrong. If they paid for it - pickin's must be slim.



It's a shame, because he's got some beautiful pieces that he's made, stuff you'd not expect to see if you've only heard him talk. He's not all hand tools in the same sense that George would've been at the museum or in the sense that Warren Mickley is.

[Curt Putnam]

I think Andy is on the right track: The future is the internet. A web article, with the ability to embed links, can cover an enormous range of material. Those who like to read can skip the videos and those who like videos can skip the text. Printed magazines will soon disappear and we will pay for access to content. The FWW site is a useful precursor to what I think will be happening. FWW & PWM and others will differentiate themselves by the ways in which they index the material and cover the news. This way the novice has access to all the how-to stuff that the expert does not want. We will not be forced to read about projects about which we do not care but every project article ever written for those who might want to read about it. For example: here are the links to the 57 sideboard articles that have been written over the last 20 years.

The only thing holding up progress along these lines is the pricing model(s). Right now publishers are trying to get the same price for electronic content as for physical media. Electronic content has no reproduction and distribution costs which are a substantial portion of the current physical media. Well, OK there is the overhead of running a website. Content providers (authors) need to cover their costs but also need to account for the ongoing income for a creation that may well have an active 20 year lifespan. Pretty much the same model as movies with reruns. Just as cellular is becoming a commodity (bandwidth) publishing will be a content bandwidth thing where the value added is in the indexing, article storage and spurring new content creation. Maybe even editing and curating services. I won't be around for it, but it will be interesting.

[george wilson]

i'd hope the internet stuff would be cheaper. There must be a lot of expense in printing equipment and all that goes with it which publishers would not have to pay.

[Mel Fulks]

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[Mel Fulks]

Got away from me again, sorry

[Mel Fulks]

The fact that magazines are advertiser driven makes it difficult for some things to be adequately written about. How could you write anything about good tools when there are so many low grade cutting tools sold and paying for space. As for the T Mack show ,he is there to attract women viewers.

[Adam Cherubini]

We grouse about FWW in decline; here's how we can help change that:


I don't know Matt, but I've met Asa and he's a great guy. He really is. And my guess is, if you call him, he'll explain why they ran that article and he'll talk about demographics and the business of woodworking magazines which most of us don't want to know about. I've had similar sorts of conversations with him in the past and always leave him feeling at both times enlightened and utterly discouraged. What I want, and what many of you want, cannot be had.

And not to excuse sloppy articles, which some may accuse me of writing, sometimes controversial articles get woodworkers thinking and talking. We're not generally a crowd easily convinced or led. So an article (and FWW does this often) challenging our beliefs about joints or glue or some such, even if it's not perfect, I think is a net positive for woodworkers. With a few exceptions I can think of, most of you do pretty much what you want to do no matter.

For George- you've forgotten more than I'll ever know about 18th c woodwork. But with your attitude, my column would never exist. I can think of a hand full of people who could possibly create and write Arts and Mysteries who have the needed qualifications to meet your (and my) expectations. And those folks don't want the job and wouldn't do it if they did. I think this is an example of perfect being the enemy of good (or in my case decent being the enemy of sorely lacking).

In my mind, the solution here is a letter to the editor that presents a thoughtful alternative. Sounds like FWW is already there. I hope no one's feelings are hurt and no one decides it isn't worth it to stick their neck out and put words on a page.

my 2d

[Jim Koepke]

The fact that magazines are advertiser driven makes it difficult for some things to be adequately written about. How could you write anything about good tools when there are so many low grade cutting tools sold and paying for space. As for the T Mack show ,he is there to attract women viewers.

Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen were both advertisers in FWW before my subscription lapsed.

I sent an email about my thoughts on the video. Two replies telling me they will "look into it."

jtk

[george wilson]

Adam,do you mean my attitude that magazines we pay money for should have accurate articles? I think it's quite reasonable to want straight facts. Now,if opinions are not the same,nothing can be done about it.:)

[ian maybury]

Must say I'm another that's really struggling with the mags - I put up a thread on the issue some months ago.

The mainstream ones I think have walked themselves into problems through trying to be all things to all men. Who is their customer - is it the advertiser, or the guy who buys the mag for information? If the advertiser then (as is already largely the case) they no longer can masquerade as the woodworker's friend. If the latter what's the level of expertise on which the pitch is based? If high end expertise there's little option but to run with stuff from not just highly experienced but also sufficiently rounded woodworkers who know a bit about the industry as well as the craft specifics.

ian

[Pat Megowan]

We're not generally a crowd easily convinced or led.

Hi Adam, this is true for many esp. as experience increases, but what got me writing FWW and eventually risking the video response is folks I know who read FWW closely, trust it for good info, and act on it with some exactness; friends, members of my local guild, folks that attend hand tool events, and so on. Most aren't active on forums, so aren't exposed to the breadth of information available here. Which is whole 'nother animal!


I don't know Matt, but I've met Asa and he's a great guy...

...the solution here is a letter to the editor that presents a thoughtful alternative.

Matt Kenney is another good'un.

FWW has heard some voices (incl at least one contributing editor), but wants to hear from more of us...you too I hope:-). With a fresh book announcement w/Tommy, perhaps the bar for overcoming inertia is higher than it would otherwise be.

P

[Mel Fulks]

I certainly recognize that there are some good tools advertised in the magazines.But the fact that some inferior stuff is also advertised stifles legitimate comparisons in their pages. I once submitted a letter to one of the ' useful tip ' features of a magazine and got a rejection letter.They are always running stuff about planer tearout and weird solutions to stop it.My piece saying steel quality makes a difference couldn't be used .Hmm...

[Jonathan McCullough]

In my mind, the solution here is a letter to the editor that presents a thoughtful alternative. Sounds like FWW is already there. I hope no one's feelings are hurt and no one decides it isn't worth it to stick their neck out and put words on a page.

As a book editor, my authors would sometimes ask about how to handle criticism. I'd tell them that some people are just never satisfied, and that if a critic disagrees with something so strongly, to suggest that they go to the trouble of writing their own damn book. It shut them down every time.

Better than a single whiny letter to the editor would be a series of timely, well-written, and adequately illustrated articles by superbly informed craftsman that are so well received by such a wide audience that it raises subscription rates. Time to get started folks! It's so easy! All you have to do is fill 90 pages a month. Better get cracking though. That first article is a doozy. And the deadline is Monday. Tick tock! Oh, I forgot to mention, you won't be paid very much.

[John Coloccia]

my worthless opinion:

The article in question would have made a lot more sense if it showed a before and after of EACH step he took...and that never happens because most of the steps where completely unnecessary and superfluous on the plane he used, and would have been FAR more complicated and difficult on any plane that actually needed it. There's the problem...lots of going through the motion without really understanding what's going on.

This is absolutely RAMPANT in the instrument building biz...and maybe George will back me up on this....maybe not. There is so much myth, lore and general baggage that goes along with building an instrument that it's a miracle that ANYONE can actually learn how to build a good sounding instrument, and it's only possible IMHO because it's really difficult to build to BAD sounding instrument if you just stick to some basic guidelines.

Anyhow, I don't subscribe to ANYTHING anymore. I'm a member of exactly one organization (anyone who knows me can guess which one), and that's it....and I toss out the magazine as soon as it comes every month...I wish they wouldn't send it, actually. People have gotten lazy. There is just as much new and exciting working going on in EVERY field as there ever was, but it's far easier to publish yet another article on how to make mortises, or some such nonsense. That will continue so long as it's paying the bills.

Seriously, though...how are you going to compete with SMC, or any one of the other 5 gazillion forums? I come here and I get expert, professional opinions in real time. What the heck do I care about anything some editor might have to say about some technique he heard about somewhere once? The magazine is a rapidly dying format, and it does NOT translate well to the internet. Maybe 10 years ago it did, but nowadays I expect to get info in real time from real pros. Buh Bye to whoever delivers less...it's just a matter of time.

[george wilson]

john,1 finger typing while eating chicken leg because i can't sleep,and taking more sleep medicine: i got real tired of the myth,lore and superstition about instruments. Especially when I had as many as 3000 people a day in the instrument shop. People can come up with real doozies!!

[ian maybury]

I think at least most of the various editor type guys about in the woodworking mags are decent guys. The few I've exchanged messages with anyway. Trouble is most are youngish guys locked into a work and business environment that's not of their own making - and dare I say it often not in accordance with their values either. Yet they seem to end up being trotted out to justify what is often unjustifiable.

The little matter of the need for a product of sufficient quality that people feel the need to buy it is for sure a basic Jonathan - without it there's no need for a mag to exist. Otherwise they just end up in the same space as newspaper magazines - the pieces written being just an excuse for what is really an advertising, and at best infommercials.

A big part of this development has been consolidation/centralisation of ownership/corporatisation of publishing. One of the steps they seem to have taken (over here anyway) is to cease employing the sort of lifetime journalists and writers that (in the case of the good guys) grew into hugely expert and trusted writers. The grab every guy who can string a few words together at short notice (whose real career is not journalism/writing anyway) and use him/her a few times approach has got to lead to highly intermittent quality of content. OK for infommercials, but.... There's probably lots writing with the potential to be very good writers, but who have not had the chance to develop their aptitude.

The other side of that coin may be that we have to be prepared to pay a bit more for our mags. Maybe not that much more though, in that the big mags seem likely to be having the money that previously was invested in the product raked off by the various owners in the form of presumably sizeable profits. Maybe we need a return to smaller publishers in the business for the love of what they do - that deliver quality of content rather than flash imagery. They seem to have been able to do it years ago long before all this 'efficiency' and corporatisation kicked in...

As before the mags as above need to decide whether or not they are in the business of selling magazines to the public, or something else. It behoves us to keep a close eye on them, and to vote with our cash. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors about, and it's easy to get sucked in by habit and/or the glitzy production values. Fact is though that if most of us were reduced to having money for essentials there's plenty that would stop buying most of the mags. We probably would only buy a fraction of the equipment we do too.....

ian

[John Piwaron]

You're not an activist, you're an ombudsman. The town crier. :)

Good to know they listen.

[John Coloccia]

re: paying more for magazines
Maybe I'm the only one, but I remember that a lot of my "trade" mags where mostly printed in black and white on regular paper. There were some pictures, LOTS of experts (real experts), some projects that would continue for many months, etc etc. There were occasionally some glossy color adds and other picture. They were also very thick. Lots of expert contributors, and lots of great information.

Now, the entire magazine is essentially a full glossy picture book. There's about 2 words for every 5 pictures, and it's loaded with advertisements, half of which as disguised to look like articles. Why would I pay MORE for that? It would make more sense for them to cut costs, get back to a simple format and actually convey some good information again. THAT, I would pay more for. Of course, they'd probably only sell 5 copies a month so it would be REEEEEEEEAAAAALLLLL expensive.

[John Piwaron]

Ian, to summarize - perhaps without a lot of conscious thought, quality does matter. I'm thinking the wood mags. FWW has always been the gold standard. Yeah, they slip from time to time, but they get their ship righted quickly. Wish it were so with some other publications.

One has gone away that I wish was still around - Woodwork

[Adam Petersen]

Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that folks here are decrying the end of written/printed articles and the advent of the internet as the new source of information, and that it's occcuring here in the Neanderthal forum?

Just curious.....

[Kent A Bathurst]

.............More to the subject however is the constant challenge of keeping long time readers satisfied as their skills advance while providing for appropriate matter for those new to the hobby and seeking basic instruction and knowledge........... This accounts for much of the repetitive articles you see............. To us the readers though it just seems like the same old stuff over and over............ I dropped my subscription to FWW about 4-5 years ago. I still think it is a good publication, it just no longer met my needs.


Very well put, Dave. I agree.

FWW [plus some reference books] was where I learned woodworking. Invaluable. Articles did become repetitive, to a certain extent. But, I still kept the subscription - always something new and/or interesting.

THen came that fateful day when the new one arrived, with the infamous cover story on Doweled Drawer Boxes. That crossed the line. They had been making a conscious move toward "down market" for a couple years, which I could understand as trying to expand potential subscriber base, and compete with other mags. But doweled drawer boxes as the cover article signaled to me an abandonment of the "Fine" part of their name.

I was able to provide them with my insight for a couple years - since I was bombarded with re-subscribe emails and offers. In every case, I replied to them and told them, politely, why that was no longer an option.

I will always be grateful to them for the help - and, more importantly, for inspiration and motivation - which I got from them in the first 6 - 8 years, and I wish them well in succeeding with their new strategy. I honestly don't know what the mag is like today - haven't looked at one in the past 5 years ore so.

[Stephen Cherry]

I've read lots of the fine woodworking articles over the years, and I think that the mag has presented some GREAT articles over the years. Eugene Landon, who I understand has sadly passed, wrote an article in the 1980's (I guess) on building chairs that could be read many, many times. Articles on things as seemingly simple as using a chisel from I guess the 1970's.

What I think the magazine needs is for today's experts to step up, and write some articles.

[Bob Glenn]

I agree with Adam, Asa is a great guy. I see him at the Williamsburg "Working Wood in the Eighteenth Century" each year. I've spoken with him about FWW and how it has drifted towards a machine oriented mag. I think they have responded as I see more hand tool stuff.

That being said, Fair Woodworking maybe more appropiate, well for me anyway.

[Josh Rudolph]

I've spoken with him about FWW and how it has drifted towards a machine oriented mag. I think they have responded as I see more hand tool stuff.

That being said, Fair Woodworking maybe more appropiate, well for me anyway.

agreed. This is just my opinion....when i started WW approximately 8 years ago was when they were really starting the migration towards machine stuff.

A few years ago PWW really started bringing hand tools into a lot of their articles and they started the woodworking in america conference. WIA has seen great success in my opinion and continues to grow.

i think FWW saw their success and has only introduced more of the hand tool stuff back into their magazine as a means of trying to ride the latest wave.

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

George,

if you ever did happen to read a PMW article again and wanted to comment, we do try to answer every e-mail from readers, and we answer the phone --apologies that you didn't receive responses in the past. Megan.Fitzpatrick@fwmedia.com; 513-531-2690 x11348.

[george wilson]

Thanks,Megan. I appreciate your answering. That editor has now moved on anyway. Still,I won't (and shouldn't have to) pay to read articles written by incompetents in any magazine. There is no educational return for my money in doing that. Editors need to have the expertise to be able to proof read articles to make sure their contents are correct,or just not publish articles that have information they are not familiar with. I also hate to see beginners mislead,I really do.

I realize that magazines do have to often rely on volunteers to write articles,but they do need to be proof read by an expert,and corrected. Otherwise,it's sort of like letting the inmates run the institution. Actually,I have read many an article written by amateurs in magazines just for the entertainment value if not for the learning. I'm contented as long as they are at least correct. I enjoy the advertising also. I'm not saying I have nothing to learn. I learn things here on SMC,even though I have been working wood since the late 40's (wood models from scratch as a boy).

As I mentioned(I think),a metal working magazine I subscribed to relied a lot on a handful of amateurs to write articles for them. These articles often had gross errors in them. I wrote to the editor,whose reply was "I have not labored in the vineyard !!!!!!" That was the most pathetic response I think could have been given. Had he asked for my help in proof reading,I'd have given it. But,for him to ask money from his readers for fouled up articles without any correction was beyond the pale.

One article,for example,was a review of a box that attached to the end of a milling machine's table. It showed how many revolutions the leadscrew had made,but it DID NOT show if the leadscrew was actually accurate. It only counted how much you had turned the handle!! The rater apparently (or did not want to) understand this,and lauded how accurate the box was. If the box showed that you had moved the table 6",he took it as gospel. In reality,a worn,or badly made leadscrew could have been quite a few thousanths off,critical in accurate machine work. The editor could not even understand this simple fact!! Neither could his writer,though a few letters to the editor from others mentioned the error. Meanwhile,all the beginners out there were led to believe that they could invest a few hundred dollars in the box and get good results. The writer was really a salesman,essentially,or else just incompetent.

There seem to be some tool salesmen disguised as craftsmen out there in other magazines,too.

I think some of the articles in that metal working magazine were written by guys who were getting free tools to write about them. They never saw a tool they didn't like,either!! I think my NRA magazine is like that. They never see a gun they don't like(even if they are junky!) I don't support the NRA to get their magazine,though. Most of their articles are about these ugly "assault STYLE" rifles(not full auto). I don't care if I never see another one of those. I like old time quality and artistic workmanship.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Editors need to have the expertise to be able to proof read articles to make sure their contents are correct,or just not publish articles that have information they are not familiar with. I also hate to see beginners mislead,I really do.

Had he asked for my help in proof reading,I'd have given it.

Qui emendo editores?

[george wilson]

"who has eyes to correct the editor"???? Your meaning is a bit vague. In the case of the editor "who had not labored in the vineyard",plenty of people have the eyes. The same can apply to any incompetent editor. Some editors might really be tool salesmen.

Some editors might be such due to politics,the good old boy network,or any other number of reasons that have nothing to do with real skill or knowledge.

[John Coloccia]

A model that has worked well in scientific journals is peer review. I don't think most people buy magazines for their accuracy, though. Like tools, I suspect that the vast majority of people that buy the magazines don't ever actually build anything other than slapping together a 2X4 & plywood workbench that eventually gets used as horizontal storage for a bunch of tools they never use. Not a shot against anyone, but most "woodworkers" are hobbyists, and the hobbyists' goal is entertainment/enjoyment, not necessarily building anything. For example, I'm a decent guitarist but I'm a hobbyist drummer. Sometimes, I'll buy some new sticks, or brushes...or a new drum head...or a neat piece of hardware. I'll try it out, never really use it right anyway, and then it lays dormant. Whatever...it was fun to try. I suspect most woodworkers are in this camp. I know a LOT of woodworkers. I know practically no one that can actually point to anything in their home that they've actually built. The only ones out there that consistently actually produce things are turners. Again, not trying to take shots or put anyone down. The whole point of a hobby is to have fun, not be productive! :)

It seems like what more serious woodworkers would like is a real, honest to God, woodworking journal....like what us engineers (and, ahem, former engineers) get through SPIE, IEEE. I doubt more than a handful would actually pay for such a thing anymore, thanks to the internet. Even a lot of science is more or less done online now. You can submit and POOF, around the world it goes.

[Zach Dillinger]

A model that has worked well in scientific journals is peer review. I don't think most people buy magazines for their accuracy, though. Like tools, I suspect that the vast majority of people that buy the magazines don't ever actually build anything other than slapping together a 2X4 & plywood workbench that eventually gets used as horizontal storage for a bunch of tools they never use. Not a shot against anyone, but most "woodworkers" are hobbyists, and the hobbyists' goal is entertainment/enjoyment, not necessarily building anything. For example, I'm a decent guitarist but I'm a hobbyist drummer. Sometimes, I'll buy some new sticks, or brushes...or a new drum head...or a neat piece of hardware. I'll try it out, never really use it right anyway, and then it lays dormant. Whatever...it was fun to try. I suspect most woodworkers are in this camp. I know a LOT of woodworkers. I know practically no one that can actually point to anything in their home that they've actually built. The only ones out there that consistently actually produce things are turners. Again, not trying to take shots or put anyone down. The whole point of a hobby is to have fun, not be productive! :)

It seems like what more serious woodworkers would like is a real, honest to God, woodworking journal....like what us engineers (and, ahem, former engineers) get through SPIE, IEEE. I doubt more than a handful would actually pay for such a thing anymore, thanks to the internet. Even a lot of science is more or less done online now. You can submit and POOF, around the world it goes.

SAPFM has exactly what you describe, a furniture journal, but it is only published once a year. It is written by members and edited by members. Some advertising, but limited. It is an excellent resource.

Chipstone also puts out a journal, again only once a year. This one isn't really a how-to piece, more of a "how it was done and by whom" piece. Again, an excellent publication.

[David Weaver]

Despite not being a current subscriber, I think Megan has done a great job. I've not seen anyone associated with any magazine who was more "out there wading through the weeds and fencerows" tending to the concerns and needs of subscribers.

I do agree with george that it would be nice to have any magazine at all (woodworking or not) where the articles were written such that it was clear that I could read them without being critical. There's nothing special about me, like there is about george, but I may be more of a cynic, I still have the stink eye permanently installed when reading most anything in current magazines ( the gun magazines are the worst, especially as far as product placement goes).

I think it's just a hard business model to write a magazine that people with a lot of exposure (and mine is an issue of exposure, more so than talent) are going to favor. I haven't said a lot in this thread just because I personally couldn't think of economically viable changes that I could suggest. If someone asked me what economic value I have as a target for a magazine advertiser, I couldn't say what it is - I couldn't compete with the purchase horsepower and sort of common widespread wants of a beginner unless a magic warehouse of obscure sharpening stones pops up somewhere all of the sudden. I was that beginner when I started due to curiosity and deep pockets, but why would a magazine even want to write articles for someone like me now, anyway? That's an honest question, i don't know the answer to it.

If there were articles in magazines written by amateurs, I wouldn't have spotted them as a beginner. Now I see articles that are written by a lot of woodworking personalities and feel that not just the amateur articles are lacking the kind of professional experience I want to see, but a cynical side has me thinking "why can't I get articles that were translated from a lifetime professional with poor communication skills and a gross personality by a good editor". It is probably a natural progression for some slice of the readership to go in that direction. Some of us just turn into James Randi every time we read something, maybe that's what it is.

The whole double iron thing last year was a good example of all of it. Warren Mickley preached (that's not quite the right word) it to us for years on another forum, but how could anyone get Warren to write an article. Warren is a pro...his explanation to us was always "you'll get no tearout with a common pitch double iron plane if you use it correctly" and if you asked him how do you find out how to use it correctly, he would give you a subtle answer like "I haven't had to think about it for a while, experience just tells you how to set it".."i haven't had tearout since 1977" and "if you can't smooth plane a board by just taking straight through strokes, then you don't know how to use a double iron" (paraphrased). Varying responses to my blow-up about the second iron on this and another forum appeared, from "you can use it, but it's not as good as a steep pitch plane" to "i've only ever heard of two people who use a second iron to control tearout" to "i've always done it that way, you're in the weeds if you didn't know that". I could've used an article with specific details in it, but who would write something like that? I could've written an article for a magazine that would've been instructive, but I think it would be entirely inappropriate for me to do it because what do I know.... a lot about sharpening stones? I couldn't show you lots of pictures of impressive furniture that I've built, I don't like building furniture. I would be a cynic of my own article, it would've bored people to tears, too. Those of us who followed the double iron thing around all pointed at each other trying to find someone who would be appropriate to write a good article and ultimately we found a way to get it printed digitally so that the readership knows I'm a hack to start off with, and so that if something was wrong with it, it can disappear rather than be saved on a format that should be used by experts. BUT, if someone could've translated Warren's words to plain english for a food soldier to use, I'd have been right on it as a reader.

So I really don't have a suggestion. I certainly don't doubt anything Warren says now, though, and as Warren says, I haven't seen tearout, the need to scrape or the need to sand since I learned to properly use the cap iron on a common #4. How do we extract that kind of expertise and turn it into something that can go into a magazine and flow into the brains and hands of a bunch of us who are gentlemen woodworkers at best? It's a real problem.

All of this aside, I can say that I stopped taking FWW before I even subscribed to PWW, and I did think PWW was better for me as a woodworker than FWW, but no magazine is going to satisfy some of us who have no limit to the amount of detail and precision we want to see.

[george wilson]

You may be right,John. But,can we ignore those poor newbies who are actually trying to learn something? Aren't they the ones who really count?

When I was in public,most of the crowds we dealt with would have known no better if I'd told them violins were stuck together with bee's wax!! The reason we tried to be authentic,and give correct information was for the minority who knew better. All the shops felt the same way. Otherwise,why try at all? I should have done as well making dulcimers and cigar box banjos for the masses.

David,you are not a hack. Your time and space devoted to woodworking may be limited(when you have kids you don't have noth'in but kids!!:)) But,the planes you've posted are well designed and well executed (When are they going to stop public execution of planes? It's cruel and unusual punishment!!)

I know you ARE one of those who want to learn.

[David Weaver]

The reason we tried to be authentic,and give correct information was for the minority who knew better. All the shops felt the same way. Otherwise,why try at all?

George...do you remember your reaction when I asked you if any of the violins you made were any good?... or if you just instead made them with hand tools only to be period correct and kind of had a bunch of duds with a few lucky good ones here and there? haha.

(that might seem a like a ridiculous question to anyone who has never bought a mass produced instrument, like a Martin or something of that sort, where there can be huge variances in tonality of an instrument ... variances that may not exist when a maker is dedicated to a particular instrument's achievement of a specific tonal quality).

[george wilson]

No,what was my reaction(if printable!)

[brian c miller]

I got a response back from Matt saying the they are going to run a response from Asa in the next issue in regards to the article.

Hopefully this should clear up a lot of the confusion.

I am a current subscriber and do enjoy the article for the most part. There are good ones and bad ones but over all I feel like I get my moneys worth. I also like that you can use their online archives and watch video extras.

[David Weaver]

No,what was my reaction(if printable!)

Paraphrased, but not as animated, it was something like "what do you mean the bad ones, why would there be any bad ones?", and then you mentioned a list of the symphonies where various violins ended up. That pretty much ended any wondering whether or not they are any good.

I had just supposed that a fair percentage of instruments made by anyone are lacking just because the mass produced instruments are like that, but re-thinking it, most of the instruments that I've played that are lacking are probably lacking because nobody cared if they were fairly dead tone-wise, and in one case, completely unplayable without repair.

[Halgeir Wold]

FWIW - I think this is a trend that influences most magazines directed at the hobbyist or spare time user in a lot of directions.
I've been an electronics professional since I left college in 1975, and got interested in music and related technology long before that. I built my first pathetic example of an amplifier back in 1968, ( I think), and have been dabbling in HiFi ever since.

I used to buy mag's about general electronics and HiFi for 30 years ore more, but I have quit all of them - also those who are left on the market for various reasons.
Electronic hobbyist mag's 'are' mainly and rightly so directed at the hobbyist, - of which there are still quite a number out there, but component supply is often difficult, as todays consumer products are mainly relying on special components that are not available to the hobbyist. Even as a professional I see increasingly more problems in getting parts, even when I know here the problem is. The few mag's that were mainly directed at the professional, and used to have articles with lots of serious and 'heavy' content, have shifted to lighter stuff mainly classified as 'information', and the serious, trade heavy stuff, is mostly gone.
What used to be , say maybe 50/50 of articles and editorial stuff vs. adverts, are now perhaps 10/90 - often at best......

The HiFi mags I used to buy, had serious design articles, and often construction articles based on designs from highly skilled designers that gave a good product if built properly. Those days are long gone - todays mags are mostly adverts, and crammed with product reviews that are biased close to ridiculous, either from economical ties to major advertisers, or from total lack of personal knowledge in electronics. Self acclaimed knowledge and urban myths rules these mags, to a degree extremely close to true narcissism.

I used to subscribe to Woodworkers Journal, from 2002 up appx. 2006, and still buy the odd copy of WWJ and FWW at the news stand, even if retail prices over here are absurd. There surely has been a shift to lesser content of articles and more advertisements. There is also an increasing amount of repetitions.
In terms of level of skill depicted and used in articles, I think one has to look closely at who the average reader is. I do suspect that the average reader of WW mags is a par with the readers of lots of the other mags I see at the news stand - shelf yards of cars, boats, computers, home decor, fitness, music, - even tattoos...... mostly contaning adverts and a few articles, and probably most read as light entertainment - when folks are not watching TV shows..........

Woodworking as a hobby and passtime is probably quite more common in the US than here, for several reasons. I really envy you guys the access you have to materials and tools at prices I concider 'dirt cheap' as compared to over here. Most stuff over here is priced 2-3 times what you pay, -or more.
Bespoke interior and furniture also seems quite more popular and common, giving room for the small scale profesional. Over here it is almost concidered 'cheap' or at least with a high geek factor. Bespoke window and staircase makers seems to be the only ones left here.

Then what do we expect from the mag's we buy, woodworking or other? Most of us that have been around for a while, and have of course aquired levels of skill beyond the novice, in whatever trade we dabble in. One thing is for sure, - we are in an ever decreasing minority. Most people seem to be content with watching 'brain dead' TV shows, - and I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying so, but that's the way it is. I may be wrong, or hope I am, but I think our ecpectations from a profit driven press is in vain. Internet may be out rescue, though, but I agree with George, network based mag's ought to be cheaper than they are, production costs concidered. I also praise the individuals, who take great effort in documenting their work in the form of personal web sites or blogs...
Long rant ... - just my ...-- 50c's.. ? :-)

EDIT: I forgot about the educational system... back in the 60s shop classes started in 4th grade - one day a week. Today it is only a couple of hours a week in 8th or 9th grade. We were taught proper WW - dovetails, veneering etc. etc. Today kids are lucky if they can turn out a breadboard. I suspect this situation is fairly similar in the US......

[ian maybury]

I can say very similar regarding the motorcycle press Halgeir. Scary how much it's dumbed down over the past 30 years. Back in the early 70s they ran photographic step by step engine rebuild features. These days we're often not permitted to touch engine internals by EU and derivative national regulations.

Pardon the following rant (which isn't really), but the trends driving these developments are much larger and more universal (and run deeper) than those arising in any given field.

As before I think the corporatisation of our world (the concentration of power and wealth into ever fewer and less overseen hands) is a big part of the whole story - the resulting lobbying and the shaping of our cultures by media is driving most of the developments of our time..

To name a few instances. Quite apart from in publishing we're seeing a situation where media content in general has lurched enormously towards the brainless, and towards stoking irrational public fears. This enables ever more regulation which puts all sorts of stuff out of reach - driven by lobbying by industry interests that (a) want to sell the product, (b) don't want competition from DIY and repairs, and (c) wants control over the means of production of tacky and short lived products. We're seeing increasing pressures regarding liability, but again very much as a result of the actions of a major vested interest group - in this case the law who are very happy to make an ass of society as long as they get their fees. Also the regulators (more public service jobs for the boys), and the insurance industry. The ever increasing cost of the medical industry (which still can cure hardly anything, never mind prevent it - but is happy to cash in our our fears) is another major driver of developments. The very political systems that we rely on to act wisely instead peddle their democratically vested powers to the highest bidder.

The increasing failure to practically educate people is another nail in the coffin of public helplessness. Cut that and the associated 'can do' mentality off and you don't even need to lobby - you create a dependency where people will beg to be protected.

Over here woodworking has almost died as a taught subject in schools - basically out of fear of liability, insurance costs, and lack of conviction on the part of the bureaucracy. It's seen as disposable, as just one of quite a large number of optional subjects that school may or may not decide to offer, and which the various brands of self interested administrator involved are more than happy to see the back of.

Which brings us back to the little matter of newly married kids (the same ones that as a result of having received no practical training can't nail two pieces wood together) signing up to mortgages so they over a lifetime can pay perhaps 50 times the true cost of building a house to our banker friends. It's a pity we can't just band together in groups, take time off work and just build our own.

The present scene can't go on indefinitely anyway - maybe that's what we'll all be doing before too very long..

ian

[Curt Harms]

Ian, you said a mouthful there. There are a LOT of what my father referred to as "educated itiots". One can tell people about anything and they're likely to believe it if they don't have a functioning "B.S. detector" built from real world experience to tell them otherwise. And perhaps taught a healthy scepticism of 'shiny sources'.

[Matt McCormick]

I think Pat has done all involved a great favor! He has made the case that we really are not too happy with woodworking magazines as a whole, and he has started the conversation about what do we really want in a magazine. He has really given FWW a huge gift..... Feedback that they would never have gotten from subscribers that just buy the mag and then quietly stop and just go away. Any thinking Company would be lucky to have it's customer help design its product, What a win-win for all. Now we have to think about just what we want to see.
OK OK I 'll start..... I want to see someone George Wilson-ish or Wilson-like write about how they go about planing a project what they look at and just how do they make sure the project will proceed to plan and what do they do when it does not? Easy? Heck No! but It sure will start a new trend in how-to articles. Why not have people give an Idea on an article and then let the publication get them involved with a author? that may work..... So anyway just my thoughts.... And No George I was not meaning to put you on the spot I know you are very busy, that is Why I said Wilson-ish... someone of your talent level. Thanks again Pat!!!

[george wilson]

When they do not work out,I have to do it again!! Truly,I have made my share of zingers over the years. One thing that keeps me from writing articles is that my work space is not real photogenic,like those beautiful,wood paneled,spotless shops that you see a posed picture of a woodworker like Gochner(sp?)in,in the FWW articles. Also,I am not a good photographer. My wife is,but her home business keeps her working twice as many hours for half the money (and benefits) she might have gotten working elsewhere.:)

She does not have the time to make magazine grade pictures for me,and I'd need help,especially if I were in the picture.

I've just never been of the mind to write a book about it every time I make a foot stool(never made one:)). Those people end up with many followers,but often have what I'd consider minimal skills. Their skills are in promoting themselves. I dare say that the real craftsmen I have known are more interested in doing fine work than in writing articles,TV shows,books,etc.. It's a different animal that does those things,it really is. They are largely "politician woodworkers",if I may coin a phrase.

My wife sent a bunch of professionally made pictures to FWW years ago. They were not interested in down loading them. UUH,yeah,we got them was their reply.

So,I guess there's no hope for magazines.

[Matt McCormick]

I've just never been of the mind to write a book about it every time I make a foot stool(never made one:)). Those people end up with many followers,but often have what I'd consider minimal skills. Their skills are in promoting themselves. I dare say that the real craftsmen I have known are more interested in doing fine work than in writing articles,TV shows,books,etc.. It's a different animal that does those things,it really is. They are largely "politician woodworkers",if I may coin a phrase.


This is exactly why I said George Wilson-ish, I think you are spot on about the"magazine personality" and about the cliquishness ( see I could never hack it as a editor doing stuff like this) I have been profiled(kinda embarrassing) in a few magazines over the years and they sent a person to interview me and then I would talk about projects or equipment or whatever. And I have tried to write articles in the past that were well received, kind of a Tips and tricks kind of thing, it ended up being a most requested reprint for that organization. Maybe FWW could send out a cub-reporter and just talk to you and put down what YOU feel you would have liked to have known back when you took up the saw and chisel. People are desperate for knowledge, someone needs to figure out how to get it outa you guys that have it. I now teach PHD candidates in engineering how to make things, how to think, how to approach problems. It is hard because I am an old crusty guy who makes things not a guy who likes answering questions.... But I like being with these kids and seeing the lights going on. I like seeing them go on to have good careers. Anyway I just think any wood working magazine that starts to expose people to guys like you, along with the Celebrity woodworkers doing what they are good at, Will see their magazine improve greatly. Hope you are taking notes Megan, it says allot about you that you are here participating thank you. Sorry if this does not make much sense but I make stuff, I don't write about stuff much(takes me 20 min. to write this little reply)....

[george wilson]

I did do a little video for FWW about plane making. But,you(and I) have to pay to see it on their web site. I got free access for 1 year for the video. How much is a year's subscription? That's what we got paid!! Lucky we had day jobs!!:) This site likely has a LOT MORE info on it than any magazine. One of my journeymen,Ed Wright,for example,gives a demo about making up and using hide glue. It is a lot more detailed and informative than anything similar I have read in a magazine. Lots of other worthwhile videos there,too.

For anyone's info,my video will not help you much with your own efforts to make planes. Jon,and I were charged with making a lot of planes,and were not in public demonstrating the trade. We were supplying about 80 craftsmen with tools ASAP. Therefore,I pulled out every method I could to expedite cutting the escapements of these planes. I had very limited resources and no specialized plane making machines. I figured out a way we could use a slotting attachment on a milling machine for slicing the escapements with powerful chisels we made. The attachment was really made for cutting keyways in gears,but it proved very effective in wood. Having a 4" stroke,it had JUST enough stroke to make the largest cooper's planes.

You aren't going to have these tools at home.The nice thing about the slotter was that it left straight,very accurate chisel cuts,not router bit marks. So,the plane escapements looked just fine,having chisel cut surfaces,not routed looking surfaces.

Anyway,I recommend the FWW site for those who really want to learn.

There are also many,many videos posted on you-tube. BUT,it can be hard for the beginner to sort out the good stuff from the incredibly inept,since anyone can post there. I have a faint memory of some guy doing something VERY DANGEROUS on his cheap contractor's saw while his 2 or 3 year old daughter was not far away,watching him.

Beyond those options,I guess you are at the mercy of cliques,politician-woodworkers,tool salesmen disguised as craftsmen,and their ilk. Man,do I sound negative,but I'm afraid it's largely the truth. When a well known author comes into my shop and tells me he's had the same planer blades on his machine for 20 YEARS,I can't help wondering how much this guy really does? I've dulled a new set on clean pine wood in an afternoon. But,I was ACTUALLY doing work. And,I believe I'll pass on this author's method of sharpening his planer blades by running them past a grinding wheel mounted on his table saw's arbor!! No thanx to getting my saw's internals coated with grinding wheel dust!!!!!!:) I've too much respect for my trunnions and gears. I switched to Dispoz-a- Blade anyway.

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

Anyway I just think any wood working magazine that starts to expose people to guys like you, along with the Celebrity woodworkers doing what they are good at, Will see their magazine improve greatly. Hope you are taking notes Megan, it says allot about you that you are here participating thank you. Sorry if this does not make much sense but I make stuff, I don't write about stuff much(takes me 20 min. to write this little reply)....

OK - I'm throwing a gauntlet. If you don't like what you're seeing in the woodworking magazines, send in a query. I can't, of course, speak for any magazine other than the one for which I work, but we accept freelance articles. Send me a query about a quality projects/techniques/etc., and it will be considered. Yes, for PWM you need to be able to take publishable photos...but here's a little secret: You don't have to be an excellent writer – you just have to know what you're talking about. (Of course, it makes my job easier if you _are_ an excellent writer, but...);)

[george wilson]

You judging the writing is perfectly sensible,Megan. So is the need for decent photographs. AFTER I EVER get out from certain projects I promised,I might consider writing articles instead of griping about them,IF I can get decent pictures made.:):):) I have too much trouble saying no to making things for people,and I need do REALLY get retired (supposed to be retired since 2009) and free myself up a bit.

I would be happy to check articles for correct content if you wish. And,if it's in an area I am not expert in,I'll just say so. Do a search of "George Wilson I made" for my credentials. I guess you can't get to the FAQ section since you have to be a contributor(but,hey,it's $6.00!) It would be very much to your advantage to see the FAQ section at the top of this forum. LOTS of potential material there,and people to contact for good articles.

[Matt McCormick]

OK - I'm throwing a gauntlet.
If you don't like what you're seeing in the woodworking magazines;)

A gauntlet??? Your glove, your challenge....... Ha you have made an age old mistake, my lady......You have over estimated your foe (whom is no Foe) I am not a worker of wood..... I am here to seek the knowledge of Craftsmanship, I can do no damage to the collective wisdom of woodworking....... However my second George Wilson could...... If he should choose.
Call Sir George and Interview him ask him for his wisdom, write it down and you will find people liking what is in your magazine.
Also I have not complained about what is in magazines, I have pointed out that they could be better if they wanted to be. I have yet to be flagged down by GM and told if you don't like our trucks, design your own and send it to us.... However if I sent them a letter saying that if they would only give their brakes better modulation they may have a much better product. I think they may like that coming from a guy that is in R @ D at a high level. I think your magazine is very good and I liked WIA here in Pasadena too. I am not here to ruffle feathers......

[Jim Koepke]

OK - I'm throwing a gauntlet. If you don't like what you're seeing in the woodworking magazines, send in a query. I can't, of course, speak for any magazine other than the one for which I work, but we accept freelance articles. Send me a query about a quality projects/techniques/etc., and it will be considered. Yes, for PWM you need to be able to take publishable photos...but here's a little secret: You don't have to be an excellent writer – you just have to know what you're talking about. (Of course, it makes my job easier if you _are_ an excellent writer, but...);)

I am happy to say that I did send in a query a few months ago. My article did get trimmed down to fit in Tips & Tricks, but I was paid and it was published.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183743-Anti-Rack-Spacer-Stack

Thanks Megan.

jtk

[george wilson]

Megan,you could also Google George Wilson harpsichord,and see all of the 1974 film we made of making both a spinet harpsichord and a violin. There is a 6 part installment you can view.

This film was done in 1 take most of the time,especially since 2 takes would have involved making whole assemblies over again. The only exceptions were when trash got into the camera's gate. I'm mentioning this aspect because there is always the excuse that working on camera is difficult. However,you will not see saws jammed in the middle of a cut,or jammed into the floor,or planes stalled out in the middle of cuts. You will not see waggling of saws. Especially when I am sawing off the tusk,the back saw goes exactly straight,no waggling at all. This was a closeup of sawing,so I mention it. The film was the most ambitious film ever made in the Col.Wmsbg. trades program,since we made 2 major projects,not one,and it had to be made in the Winter season,when bicycle bells(they rented bicycles with BELLS!!!! WHY!!!!) were not eternally ringing,and things were as quiet as possible. We worked very hard from early morning till too dark to film. I was 33 years old. Marcus and Larry were 6 years younger.

Sorry if this sounds like bragging,but the work was done right,so it's not bragging. It's fact.

[Seth Dolcourt]

This thread's embers are dwindling, but here's a bit more fuel.

Wooodwork Magazine had some very eclectic submissions, and the accompanying articles about the featured artist seemed to hinge more about mood / philosophy, rather than step by step. So, solution the first for the publisher: make your readers a bit miffed, feed them a diet of content that is not Golden Rule case work. If you don't stretch your readers brains, you box yourself in.

Readers have to realize that a cabinet is a cabinet, drawers or shelves, made of walnut or cherry, this high or this long....snooze. It's a cabinet, people. Like the other 5 million you've seen before. Go get inspiration from somewhere else. Ceramics, metalworking, knitting, whatever. When you come back to woodworking, you won't be so locked in to Golden Rule case work, freeing you to pursue advanced artistic ideas.

[Matthew Hills]

When they do not work out,I have to do it again!! Truly,I have made my share of zingers over the years. One thing that keeps me from writing articles is that my work space is not real photogenic,like those beautiful,wood paneled,spotless shops that ...


Apparently not an obstacle for FWW: http://furnituremaking.com/wordpress/?m=201210

Matt

[george wilson]

That shop is STILL neater than mine!!

[Steve Meliza]

That shop is STILL neater than mine!!
Nothing looks better to me than a shop that actually gets used and is presented that way rather than having all the clutter hauled away for a few pictures to be taken.

[george wilson]

Well,I have been such an inveterate TOOL PIG I simply do not have the space to put everything away. At my age,I need to start selling off things I really don't use. I've already given away quite a bit to young craftsmen I want to help in the museum.

[Zach Dillinger]

George, when's the yard sale? I can be in Williamsburg in 12 hours... :)

[Phillip Dejardin]

I'm very happy with what FWW is doing, both print and online. It was the first woodworking magazine to which I subscribed and it's only gotten better. Their paid-online content is hands down the best deal out there, and their free-online content is more than most publishers offer - bi-weekly podcasts, instructional videos, blogs, tool reviews, a forum, tips and tricks, convincing Chris Becksvoort to appear with Ron Swanson (aka Nick Offerman) on Parks and Rec. I'm writing my letter now.

[george wilson]

Zach,everything I have is not gold plated!!!:):):) I have to tell that to some of my learning to be craftsmen friends. I put a couple of quick and dirty (only SO dirty) handles on a couple of ceramic knife blades that Woodcraft sells. It wasn't an important job,and I left a little meniscus of epoxy at the end of a handle. A friend saw it and commented on the sloppy handle they had left. I told her I had made the handles. She was embarrassed,but I quickly added "everything I touch does not turn to gold!" Some things are just not that high on my priority list.:)

[Zach Dillinger]

I'm just joshing you George. I tend to focus my efforts on the important stuff as well. You'd probably be shocked at how ugly the handle on my Grammercy dovetail kit-saw turned out... but it cuts beautifully! I keep meaning to re-handle it, but other paying projects seem to get in the way.

[Jeff Heath]

Good luck. I tried for years. It's been my experience that they don't listen, and they only care about sponsors.

They shit-canned a forum that had a decades worth of "How To" information in a easy-to-use searchable format and replaced it with the sinking ship (if it hasn't already found the bottom) that is now the Knots.

Won't ever happen. Sorry to be pessimistic.

Jeff