Honing the gouge between sharpenings

[Eric Gourieux]

It has been mentioned by a few Creekers that they hone their gouges with a diamond hone between sharpenings. Scott H, I think, has also mentioned honing immediately after sharpening, too. I think I understand the concept, but can you describe this process in more detail? I have tried honing after I feel the gouge dulling slightly, and it works really well. However, it changes the bevel slightly and just feels a little bit awkward. Is this just a matter of practice and getting better at honing? How much of a micro-bevel do you put on the tool? Any help would be appreciated.

[Eric Holmquist]

Assuming you use a bench grinder which produces a hollow ground bevel, you would be using the hone touching both the heel and edge of the gouge. This preserves all the angles. As you hone, you remove a tiny part of the "hollow" on both sides. After a several honing operations you need to go back to the grinder to re-establish the hollow grind.

If you use a sharpening system that does not produce a hollow ground bevel, I am not sure

[Bernie Weishapl]

Eric pretty much hit the nail on the head. I really don't notice any difference until I have honed maybe 3 times or so. Then I hit the grinder.

[neil mackay]

Yep pretty well describes what I do as well 3 or 4 goes at it with the diamond file etc.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Right or wrong, here is my thinking on that topic. If you hone you are merely removing steel on a portion of the cutting edge. If you hone you will create a secondary bevel. The more you hone the longer the bevel gets. If you hone only where you are cutting you may think you are saving steel but the next time you grind you will still have to remove enough steel to get rid of the new bevel. Of course you can't grind only where you honed or you will misshape your tool. It can be argued that honing creates a finer edge. That's true for carving tools but I like a bit of a saw edge on my turning tools.

[Doug Herzberg]

Assuming you use a bench grinder which produces a hollow ground bevel, you would be using the hone touching both the heel and edge of the gouge. This preserves all the angles. As you hone, you remove a tiny part of the "hollow" on both sides. After a several honing operations you need to go back to the grinder to re-establish the hollow grind.

Thanks, Eric. I didn't understand that. I don't hone, but I may try again.

[Tim Rinehart]

Ok...FWIW, I too do some honing in between...but I think I know why I also resharpen. Considering that the grinder leaves a hollow grind, any time you turn and ride the bevel fresh off the grinder you will get an automatic cutting of the wood while riding the bevel. As you start honing and remove that hollow grind, riding the bevel actually prevents cutting of wood fibers. This makes me think now that there is a disadvantage to sharpening with the Sorby ProEdge and other flat grinding profiles. If you're turning the inside of a bowl...I don't think it matters as much to get the 'flatness' from honing or flat grinding/sharpening, as you don't tend to truly ride the bevel as much.
If you are just fine tuning a piece and using shear scraping, the difference between fresh hollow grinding and flat honing (if done well) should be insignificant. I'm going to pay more attention to this now, as it really just clicked why I find I have limits to how much I can hone and get good results as I'm doing the outside of a piece. I know I've had to lift the heel more after I've been honing, and that's consistent with loss of the positive engagement of the cutting edge while riding the bevel.
Phewwww!

[Scott Hackler]

Let me first say that right after the grinder I use a rolled up piece of 400 wet dry to smooth the inside of the flute and remove any small burrs on the inside of the cutting edge. Usually 4-5 passes with the sand paper. Then I immediately grab the 600 grit diamond stone.

I re-hone, constantly, and don't do the heal to edge honing! In fact I grind the heal off all my gouges while at the grinder! When I hone, I am only hitting the edge at a slight angle. When done there is a noticable shiney 1/32" (or so) edge on the outside of the cutting edge. I have a small little trick that I use for honing at this angle. I leave the stone laying out on the bench behind the lathe and do NOT knock the dust off the stone and while stroking the edge with the hone I am looking for the gouge to show the dust accumulating on the inside of the flute! That tells me I AM touching the edge with my hone.

This edge will shave hair off my arm and I will continue to refresh this edge with the hone maybe 5-10 times before starting over at the grinder.

Works for me...... :)

[Thom Sturgill]

I found it interesting that while none of the pros videos that I've seen show honing other than of the flute by using a roll of sandpaper, and of skew chisels. When watching Jimmy Clewes in person, he honed immediately after grinding, and a couple of times before re-grinding.

Another issue is the heel portion of the hollow grind. It will leave a line in the inside of bowls where it burnishes behind the cut. Many grind that off to prevent the lines and that makes honing more difficult if you remove too much. Since I use the shear cut a lot, I tend to hone. I think that with the edge I'm getting off the new 180 grit CBN wheel (stealth gloat) I may not need to hone as much, if at all. Time will tell.

[Reed Gray]

I will admit to never giving the honing a serious effort, though I tried it a few times. I couldn't notice any difference. The 'secondary bevel' created by honing, I would guess, would be so minimal as to make almost no difference in how the tool handles. On the outside/convex surface, no difference, and with the inside/concave surface, if the heel is ground away, almost no difference. Main thing would be with a shaping grind, where you really grind off some metal, you get a big nasty burr. With a gentle touch up on the grinder wheel, the burr is minimal. Just never felt it was worth it.

robo hippy

[Harry Robinette]

I started honing after seeing Micheal Lee at Cincinnati symposium. The amount your removing is only a couple thousands at most I can't believe that you guys are felling a differents. The main thing that is being done is just cleaning and resmoothing the edge.We all know that a clean smooth edge is why we sharpen all of our tools,if you have never cleaned you saw blade you'll understand. Honing is keeping that edge at it's best possible clean smooth sharpness without grinding away more steel. I hone I do believe that it helps of course this is just my thoughts on the matter.

[Eric Gourieux]

Thanks for the replies.

I use a Tormek with a fairly new stone, so it is a large enough diameter that I don't produce much of a hollow bevel when I sharpen. I'll try some of your suggestions. Faust, you are correct, in my opinion, that the micro (or not quite micro in my case thus far) has to be ground away the next time you sharpen at the wheel. It is relatively small, though, and I feel like I can keep my tool's shape pretty well.

Scott, thanks for your expertise. I'll try the dust-test next time.

[Reed Gray]

Part of the debate/discussion on 'how sharp' is about what works best. You run from the coarse extreme of straight from 60 grit wheels to the wood (Mike Mahoney and Jimmy Clewes) because a 'more serrated' edge cuts better, to the Tormek/wet wheel grinders where 'there are fewer serrations to wear down so the edge lasts longer. I even heard some one claim that without a hollow ground bevel, you could not cut. Some say that a scraper without a burr will not cut. Well, I can do all of the above. I did try a tormek edge and didn't notice any advantage. I figure the steel had more to do with durability of the cutting edge than the sharpening, I always use a fresh edge for a finish cut.

robo hippy

[Eric Gourieux]

Reed,
I'm with you on the fresh edge for the finish cut. I've never used anything on my bowl gouges but the Tormek, because that's what I have. I'm not particularly attached to it. In fact, I've considered the CBN wheels and a new variable speed grinder. I don't like that the Tormek wheel must be re-shaped occasionally, and I like the low maintenance of the CBN set up. What I don't like is the approx $500 initial investment (if I purchased 2 wheels).

[Reed Gray]

Yea, $400 plus a little for 2 wheels and the bushings. No mention of the grinder though. You will not need any dressing tools or accessories. They will never wear out. Kind of like variable speed, once you have it, even though it costs more, you will never go back, and you will find it is worth every penny.

robo hippy

[Harry Robinette]

Eric
I just got my CBN it was $210.98 delivered to me in Oh. I keep my 46grit Norton SG to do my shaping with and got the 180grit CBN to do my sharpening.

[Doug Reesor]

In a book I have by Leonard Lee "The complete guide to Sharpening" he describes the importance of polishing the inside of the flute of the gouge so that the tool edge is much straighter on a microscopic level when sharpening. The result is that the tool cuts smoother and stays sharp for a longer period. It seems to work pretty well. I have not tried honing the ground edge after that but I have hit it with the leather strop. What ever works.

[robert baccus]

For many years I sharpened on a belt grinder with no problems. Finally went to a grinder (120 grit) in order to use a wolverine jig which works very well. I've always used a card diamond to touch up the edge for final cuts or torn grain ect. Recently I obtained a 6" diamond disc (1000 grit) and mounted it on an old washing machine motor. Anything it touches is scary sharp instantly--still use it only when I need a critically good cut however.

[mark ravensdale]

When I first started turning I used a tormek but found that my HSS turning tools eat through the wheel at a prodigies rate and the wheels cost £92 (UK pounds) so not a cheap way of sharpening, I also have tried the sorby pro-edge system for around 12-14 months and found it just didn't produce an edge that worked as well as my bench grinder (don't ask me why, it just didn't !!!)
so now I have a slow speed grinder with a 60 grit alu ox wheel on one side and a 100grit CBN wheel on the other and this I find works great for me, I too hone/touch up an edge between trips to the grinder maybe 2-5 times, have done this for years, works for me, my workshop is tiny and I don't have room to have a grinder out all the time so I will touch up the edge a few times before getting the grinder out, when I do sharpen my turning tools on the grinder I don't bother taking off the burr/wire edge (have done in the past) as I have found It seems to make little if any difference whatsoever, but these are just my findings over the years, if you do different and it works for you then good for you and carry on :)