Store bought tool cabinet. I pass

[Mark Dorman]

Lie Nielson tool cabinet. $13,200 with tools and the cabinet alone is $9,500.
I'll have to pass on this and let ones like Bob Jones built inspire me to build my own.
Oops not sure what happend to the picture.


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[John Lanciani]

Full discussion is 6 posts down in the list right now. :rolleyes: I'd be willing to bet that everyone who says it is too expensive would have a different view of the price if they were in business and making an identical item to sell at wholesale. If you're a pro in the northeast and your shop rate isn't somewhere well north of $50 an hour you're only cheating yourself (and making it hard for others trying to make a decent living).

[Bill Houghton]

If you're a pro in the northeast and your shop rate isn't somewhere well north of $50 an hour you're only cheating yourself (and making it hard for others trying to make a decent living).
Wow. It says quite a lot about woodworkers and how little they're prepared to live on that you're citing $50/hour. The local auto repair shops passed $100/hour years ago.

[David Weaver]

I'd be willing to bet that everyone who says it is too expensive would have a different view of the price if they were in business and making an identical item to sell at wholesale.

That's a false dilemma. Most of us wouldn't build shop furniture if we were in the business and attempt to recover heirloom furniture rate for it.

It's a case, in my opinion, of "let's see if we can get it...if there's a market for something like this".

Does anyone know how many have sold?

[John Lanciani]

Wow. It says quite a lot about woodworkers and how little they're prepared to live on that you're citing $50/hour. The local auto repair shops passed $100/hour years ago.

Did you notice that I said "well north of $50 an hour"? I was trying to be PC. The fact of the matter is that in the metro Boston area the shop rate needs to be a fair bit higher if one wishes to get ahead.

To David, the piece in question blurs the line between shop furniture and an heirloom. They may well be future heirlooms depending on who buys them and how they are used. It is most certainly built as fine furniture by a craftsman who turns out heirlooms regularly.

[george wilson]

I'd be very happy to build that cabinet for $4,000.00. It would be a lot easier than making a guitar for similar money. come on, really, a Studley it isn't. The fixtures are left with exposed hardware quality plated (deck?) screws showing,for one thing (I make my own,and the locks,too) ,and it is basic,neat shelf and fixture building and minimal finishing,plus no exotic woods,ivory,pearl,ebony,rosewood,nice brass fittings,etc.. I'm halving the retail price and still could come out just fine on making it. Anyone with decent abilities could readily make one for himself. Now,if I were making the SAME cabinet,$4000.00 would be o.k.. Hand made hardware would cost more!!

I'm not saying it should be a Studley for that price,but it is not a huge effort to make a cabinet like that one. It is a prestige item for those with money who would not do the work for themselves,and I've made plenty of presentation pieces in that same customer range. I don't mind,I like the money.:) (And,the piece will survive longer for posterity!!) I'll bet the Brinkley compass I took 5 months to make has never been used for surveying!! And the Queen's gift never poured tea!!!!

I am not poo-pooing this item,mind you. It is a great marketing strategy that creates a lot of buzz,just as it has here. Lots of free advertising has been created. I thought about doing exactly the same thing many years ago,on a more advanced level: Make a tool chest,a real fancy one,18th.C. style with marquetry lining. Then,make and offer hand made tools one by one,specially made to fit into the chest. Whoever bought the chest would be nearly compelled to buy every one of the tools to complete the set. Plus,this plan would spread out the considerable expenses so a collector with means would still not be under too great an immediate financial strain.

With the regular job I had,and my over riding interest in making string instruments at the time,and collectors buying every tool I could make at night anyway, and special projects like the fire engine and cider press,and helping with PGA trophies and presidential gifts,I never undertook that major effort.


To illustrate how I would approach the making of a limited number,or single chest,here is a case I made. On the "English Guitar",a type of cittern) below,I made the silver tuning mechanism for the instrument (which has about 30 parts). Unfortunately,it can barely be partially seen on the left end of the neck. I made the 18th.C. style "staple" lock(it is the only way to get one),and the brass catches were sawn out and filed up-the only way to get quality ones. All the screws are unplated,turned steel,flat head,fire blued as was proper in the period.The little oval ivory knobs on the accessory compartments I also made. They are engraved with the owner's insignia(which I also designed). The marbled paper is hand made French marbled paper,not some printed imitation. The lip around the edges is Cuban mahogany. All the white parts are legal (pre 1972) ivory,documented. The label is printed on hand laid,acid free paper. A journeyman of mine made the instrument itself. I made the rose in the sound hole. The finish is hand applied violin oil based varnish,hand rubbed. The leather is vegetable tanned calf skin(not chrome tanned,a cheaper,less durable modern process). The case was too large to make from Morocco goat,which is a finer leather(and VASTLY more expensive!). At the time I was too busy to accept the order for the instrument.

The 2 wax seals have the owner's insignia on them,and their brass parts were freehand turned and engraved. The handles are turned water buffalo horn,which closeup has grey markings in them,looking like agate. The tips of these horns are solid all the way through.

The marks seen are on the slide,not the case.

This is how I see bespoke work.

[David Weaver]

Did you notice that I said "well north of $50 an hour"? I was trying to be PC. The fact of the matter is that in the metro Boston area the shop rate needs to be a fair bit higher if one wishes to get ahead.

To David, the piece in question blurs the line between shop furniture and an heirloom. They may well be future heirlooms depending on who buys them and how they are used. It is most certainly built as fine furniture by a craftsman who turns out heirlooms regularly.

I understand that becksvoort makes heirloom furniture. I don't consider anything with dovetails *showing* to be heirloom, it's just me, I guess, but our expectations SHOULD be high on here. I don't see anything on the cabinet that I couldn't do, including the design and layout, and I am not by any means a "special" woodworker.

Every time I see george's work, I see things I can't do, including the design and layout.

I am sure becksvoort is a nice guy and does great work, nobody says otherwise. I just choose to put that kind of value on something that could only be executed by a smaller circle of craftsmen. Normally I wouldn't say anything about exposed dovetails on work, because it's a piece of shop furniture, but when it is commissioned custom furniture prices, I expect something brilliant and subtle at the same time.

But it goes back to the original thread here, it is Lie Nielsen's workpiece/offering. Generally, they do a superb job on their planes (really, what are the other options that are moderate cost - LV and clifton, I suppose, not *too* much different). But when it gets to the side gadgets and tables and things, they are catering to people who either have a whole lot of money and want the name on something, or catering to a new buyer who has a lot of money and may not be a competent woodworker. Regardless, those are customers and their dollars are green. If you can ask it and get it, by all means.

[Jim Foster]

I think the fellow, C.B making the cabinet for sale at LN started out at Thomas Moser way back, and then graduated to building his own pieces. I remember seeing articles of his in several magazines and books around 20 yrs ago. Been around doing shaker style furniture for a long time. He might also have a son that does woodworking or vice-versa.

[george wilson]

In business,especially in harder times,you have to do whatever you can to make money and stay in business. I don't feel that LN is doing anything wrong by making promotional items. It does showcase their work,makes a lot of buzz,etc.. Generally good for business. If someone wants to pay that price,it suits them.

Exposed dovetails used to be a no-no in the 18th.C.and 19th.C.'s. They went to a LOT of extra trouble hiding them on nice boxes,like pistol boxes,for example. They used mitered dovetails on their corners. Dovetails internally,looking like a clean 45º miter joint on the outside. A much more complicated joint than plain dovetails.Today,I guess exposed dovetails are fashionable. The box is not too bad showing the dovetails on the corners. At least they aren't on the FRONT. What I really think is ugly is drawers with dovetails that show through on the fronts as rectangles. A whole bunch of drawers like that in a cabinet.

A while back,I could have bought such a hanging tool cabinet cheap. It was no doubt the pride of the deceased maker. I didn't buy it because it had about 6 drawers at the bottom with the dovetails showing on the fronts of the drawers. I might have bought it except for those dovetails showing.

[Zach Dillinger]

In business,especially in harder times,you have to do whatever you can to make money and stay in business. I don't feel that LN is doing anything wrong by making promotional items. It does showcase their work,makes a lot of buzz,etc.. Generally good for business. If someone wants to pay that price,it suits them.

Exposed dovetails used to be a no-no in the 18th.C.and 19th.C.'s. They went to a LOT of extra trouble hiding them on nice boxes,like pistol boxes,for example. They used mitered dovetails on their corners. Dovetails internally,looking like a clean 45º miter joint on the outside. A much more complicated joint than plain dovetails.Today,I guess exposed dovetails are fashionable. The box is not too bad showing the dovetails on the corners. At least they aren't on the FRONT. What I really think is ugly is drawers with dovetails that show through on the fronts as rectangles. A whole bunch of drawers like that in a cabinet.

A while back,I could have bought such a hanging tool cabinet cheap. It was no doubt the pride of the deceased maker. I didn't buy it because it had about 6 drawers at the bottom with the dovetails showing on the fronts of the drawers. I might have bought it except for those dovetails showing.

Agreed. Dovetails are structural, not aesthetic. I don't get the point of showing off dovetails. They are far from marking the height of craftsmanship, in my opinion.

[Tony Wilkins]

I understand that becksvoort makes heirloom furniture. I don't consider anything with dovetails *showing* to be heirloom, it's just me, I guess, but our expectations SHOULD be high on here. I don't see anything on the cabinet that I couldn't do, including the design and layout, and I am not by any means a "special" woodworker.

Funny thing is this is the first thread and first response I came to after watching a woodworking show on PBS. The person was also making an 'heirloom' bookcase. I wondered if I was becoming a hand tool snob because I though plywood (not veneered or covered), pocket screws, and biscuits didn't equal heirloom at any juncture. Sad thing is that most people today would think that it was 'hand crafted' and worth something. For the record, I thought it looked cheap and plastic.

[Zach Dillinger]

Funny thing is this is the first thread and first response I came to after watching a woodworking show on PBS. The person was also making an 'heirloom' bookcase. I wondered if I was becoming a hand tool snob because I though plywood (not veneered or covered), pocket screws, and biscuits didn't equal heirloom at any juncture. Sad thing is that most people today would think that it was 'hand crafted' and worth something. For the record, I thought it looked cheap and plastic.

Agreed in all respects, except the last sentence, but only because I didn't see the program.

[Carl Beckett]

In business,especially in harder times,you have to do whatever you can to make money and stay in business. I don't feel that LN is doing anything wrong by making promotional items. It does showcase their work,makes a lot of buzz,etc.. Generally good for business. If someone wants to pay that price,it suits them.


I can imagine customer profiles that will buy it. Some people I know pretty much have everything they could ever want (in fact, I pretty much fall into this category myself - it doesnt mean I am 'rich'). Its pretty hard to shop for a gift for these people (have been told this - I really just appreciate a card and some cookies), so you have to be creative. As a special occasion gift that a person would pick out for them - it could be a great gift! (Say someone is getting married and they know their spouse to be is really into woodworking, but they dont know anything about it themselves. So they pick this. Or maybe a retirement gift, or a 50th year anniversary gift. It would be pretty thoughtful and given the person already has everything else they ever wanted - as good a gift as any, and MUCH better than another tie....).

My brother was restoring antiques at one time, and also buying/selling. He was pretty good the restoration stuff but got tired of it and wanted to reduce the workload. So he raised his prices significantly. Guess what - the demand went UP! Word got out that he was cutting hours, and he became the 'go to' person to fix great grandmas whatever in a proper manner and had the biggest backlog ever. Supply/demand and psychology work in funky ways.

You can also assume that this person doesnt know about SMC so doesnt come here to ask for ideas. My wife got me a couple nice handplanes a couple years back for Xmas. She did GREAT picking from a catalog. :) Im trying to imagine the direction she would get if she had come here and asked..... lol. She would have had to provide a complete inventory of my current working tools along with a portfolio of work and a personality profile on my preferences. Of course it would have been excellent advice, but Im not sure she would have made it through the screening.

[Jim Matthews]

Is that a mandolin I see?

I take back everything good I ever said about you - these things are the Devil's own instrument.
I'm always surprised to see an ancient version that hasn't pulled itself apart under the strain.

Itty-bitty nimble fingers to play one of these well.
Most anyone could play a mandolin badly (which I have done).

I am, again, aghast at the vast expanse between what you make, and what I can even imagine...

[george wilson]

Actually,Jim,it's a very DECADENT instrument,a late type of cittern. It was tuned CEGceg,an open chord. It was about the simplest stringed instrument imaginable,and was developed for ladies of leisure(and not much talent) to play. The neck is about as wide as a guitar neck. The strings are metal,to stay in tune better than gut. The special tuning mechanism tightens each string much the same way as the hairs on a violin bow are tightened by a long,thin screw inside the frog. Easier for unskilled players to manage than straight pegs. The screws are turned by a pocket watch key. The mechanism has no gears,and can be made with simple tools and a tap and die set. I had to make several of the blasted things. My journeymen didn't want to bother with the tuners!! Rather fussy work. About 30 parts in one. Must have cost a lot in the period.

This instrument was developed to ridiculous lengths. Capos were added so the ladies didn't have to learn to play in different keys. The highest complexity developed was a 6 key keyboard attached to the top in a bulky box housing. When you pressed a key,a little hammer would strike the corresponding string,in an effort to make it sound like a little spinet. Really ridiculous,and pretty strange looking too!!

This is something I was required to make in the museum,since it was known to have been popular in Williamsburg in the 18th. C.. Not something I'd ever have gotten into out of my own interest. I'd never heard of it before I was hired at the museum.