Comparing thoughts on SawStop

[Ken Waag]

I post this thread as an extension of some thoughts that came up on "The Next Unisaw" thread. Didn't want to hijack that thread, but did want to allow for a discussion of some interesting thoughts on Sawstop.

Dev, if you've found me here,

First, I enjoyed your disussion of vintage machines. There are some gems from the past. As Bart mentioned on the previous thread they were built for producion work, and as such they are heavy duty and seem to last forever. They also , as you mentioned, allow for some types of work (moulding etc.)that can't or shouldn't be done on the typical cabinet saw. The old boys are a different breed. I remember an old Oliver from a night class I took at a Tech school. There was a foot brake to stop the blade from spinning after you turned the saw off. Unfortunately it was broken. If you know your safety, you don't leave the saw until the blade has stopped as someone else could come along not realizing the balde was still spinning and get hurt. Not much of an issue on my Jet or a Unisaw as the spin down is maybe 30 seconds? When you'd turn this Oliver off it was several minutes before that buzzard stopped. An inconvenience to be sure, but that's quality. I can only imagine the kind of bearings that thing must've had. I'd put that one in my shop anyday (but I'd fix the footbrake)

OK, the Sawstop. Always a bone of contention. I've followed the story from the beginning as I thought it was a great idea and long overdue. It was an important feature to me for a couple of reasons: 1) I was a hobbiest woodworker, but a dentist by trade. Kind of needed to keep my fingers attached. So when the issues of safe practices come up, believe me I was/am meticulous! 2) My brother pulled a radial arm saw across his index finger. The doctors thought they'd need to amputate (complete the amputation, I should say) but my Brother asked them to please try anything. The finger was in fact saved, but is fused at the middle knucle so he can't bend it. Certainly could've been worse but ask him what it would be worth to regain the normal use of his finger and the answer will be many times the cost of several sawstop saws, blades and brakes.

I wish that Delta, Jet, Powermatic et. al. would have adopted the technology when it was presented. My guess is that they may now be wishing the same thing. I'm inclined to repond to a number of points made about the Sawstop. No personal offense intended, believe me I've read numerous threads and seen the same points time and time again. This is just the first time I have responed as it was a moot point to me until the technolgy actually hit the market.

"I would caution anyone about a false sense of security from these so called safty devices. Learn to use the saw correctly by using correct techniques and you will be O.K. Take a class if you have to but learn the correct techniques!"

A ten inch blade spinning with the tips near the speed of sound scares the xxxxxxxout of me. Having a brake mechanism would not change that one ioda. I don't think anyone wants to test drive the brake. I don't personally think this idea that people will get careless because there is a safety brake present holds water. More importantly, we do know that a false sense of security comes with repetitious use, so that danger is already present and is an argument for not against a safety device.

I mentioned that I am meticulous about safety. I know and apply good techniques as you suggest, and most certainly this reduces my risk substantially. But this argument suggests that as long as I do just that I cannot get hurt. We'd have to read specific reports, so I say this without scientific certainty, but it seems possible that accidents have occured despite safe practices. Once again it is even more important to flip the argument over. DO people use safe techniques? I go to the hardwood shop and often need a sheet cut in half to transport it. One guy manhandles the sheet onto a unisaw that is already running has no safety guard anywhere near it. The sheet hits the blade before it does the fence and gets pushed thru with remarkable speed. As near as I can tell, he's not paying much attention, he is cetainly not watching the board /fence interface as one should. He pushes the sheet all the way thru with hands on both sides of the cut and runs them beyond the blade. He's also wearing gloves so as not to get a splinter! This guy does this for a job. Anecdotal evidence? yes. But do I need to be scientific here. I've seen this type of practice too many times in too many places to delude myself into thinking it is uncommon. Now we could argue that these folks can mutilate themselves if they so choose. But it does not lend credibility to the "well just don't put your hand in the blade" argument. (I have heard this statement used in a serious manner several times, it does not apply here as the use of safe techniques is suggested thoughtfully and correctly) Still, from a realistic and economic standpoint, safe practices are not universally applied and the economic burden that results is some level of magnitude beyond the cost of the brake system. Broken blades catridges and all.

"And according to the owner of northfield machinery in MN who still makes the older heavy iron, (www.northfieldwoodworking.com) (http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com)/), this device is actually itself a safety hazard. On larger, carbide tipped blades, the teeth have a habbit of comming off with extreme kinetic energry. In english, that is schrapnel! I for one do not wish to have a doctor pulling out forrest blade schrapnel from every part of the front side of my body when this thing kicks in by accident. Secondly, its a one shot device. An aluminium alloy boot is jammed into the blade path at the same time that the entire yoke assembly is dumped into the bowls of the saw cabinet to get the blade out of path in milli-seconds. You will now need to get both a new shoe and a new blade as most blades of any quality will be destroyed by this violence."

Well I'm from MN, but I still can't take the word of a machinery owner that this device creates shrapnel. Is there a study that shows or even suggests this? Any evidence of any kind? I would definitely be want to be aware of this and so would appreciate any information. Sawstop shot this thing off repeatedly in development and subsequent testing. Heck, they do it at shows with a crowd gathered around. Would they do that if they tought it sprayed shrapnel? They have the most to lose should there be an injury caused by the action of this device.

Yes your blade and cartridge are shot. A very nice blade, $120, cartidge, $60. $180. So to employ that as an argument against this device begs the question: what is a finger worth to you? $180? If this thing goes off and I still have ten fingers, I'll use all ten to count out the bills to buy a blade, and a cartridge. Steve Gass will get a Holiday card every year for the rest of my life, with my ten fingerprints on it. You could lose $180 on a miss fire. I'll take it. They have worked hard on preventing misfires, and to the best of my knowledge there has been one incident in the field (piece of metal tape on underside of a board establihed an electrical path from blade to table, which drew current and quite properly released the brake. No shrapnel reported.)

"how can one person push these features as a required safety standard but also hold everyone culpable in the event that they dont pay him royalties for violating his patent? If this wasn't about greed, then he should do what mercedes did with the crumple zone patent... give it away to the world for free. But the facts are the facts. The attempt to put this requirement into the standards is a feeble way of blackmailing companies into having to pay his royalties. Furthermore, every major manufacturer in this country has already evaluated his invention and effectively turned it down.

1) the system was offered to manufacturer's in exchange for a royalty. They chose not to implement the system and not to pay a royalty. Is there a reason they should get to refuse to pay royaties, but then violate his patent. I don't think even the Manufacturers believe that.
2) Who ever said it wasn't about greed. It is about greed and so is every other object ever invented. I think the vast majority of things are invented in the hope that they will sell and generate a profit. That's capitalism: if you can invent and make something that people will buy, you get money. Lot's of good inventions came out of that sytem.

Your analogy with Mercedes may not be the best comparison. They did release a patent on a safety feature, but I doubt that it was less greedy. More likely the PR for releasing it was worth more than they figured to lose by letting the competition have it. They did mention it in a series of commercials after all. If they had no greed they wouldn't have needed to profit from the PR. More significant is that Mercedes-Benz is a multi-billion dollar corporation. Steve Gass is a single individual. He perceived a need, pursued a solution, found one and deserves the results. Remember the jury is still out. He may make millions or go bankcrupt.
Had you invented this device, would you have given it away?

As to every manufacturer turning it down, I did not hear of one that said it did not work. I heard several say that they felt the cost of implementing it would be prohibitive. Sounds greedy. They actually feared being sued by someone who was injured on one of their other machines that didn't have the device.

I for one am glad that someboby found a way to make a saw with the brake (apparently the cost wasn't prohibitive so much as a risk that several large corporations didn't want to take, but one greedy individual did).

As to forcing the technology via governmental routes....I'm never for that. I'd say the cards are dealt, play the hand. They turned it down, he ran an end around. The capitalistic system not only inspires inventions , it makes very objective decisions. The market will decide. (and you may have already read my prediction: Sawstop does well, gains market share, one or more of the aforementioned mfgrs bids to buy them out)

I can only say two things on the regulations issue. It was offered first. I think there denial was a shock (it was to me). There may be some vengenge involved. I think it would take a better man than me not to react the same way.

If regulating this maddens you, let's not forget that the current safety guards are mandated. So if you fight one, fight the other and I will join you.

In the end, despite my novel length post. We are really more in agreement than not. We may disagree as to the relative merits of the sawstop safety feature. You won't buy one and I will. But you won't keep me from buying one, and I won't force you to buy one. And that's as it should be.

I welcome your reply/response or anything else. I hope we get some other opinions in here as well.

All the best,
Ken

[Mark Singer]

Ken,

I am reading it in chapters and have completed this evenings session...woow!

[Greg Mann]

Well said, Ken.

Greg

[Ken Waag]

Ken,

I am reading it in chapters and have completed this evenings session...woow!

Yea, Sorry about that, but like I said I've been silent for along time. If you'd like I'll let you know when the audio version comes out:)

[Jeff Pilcher]

I'm going to wait for the Cliff's Notes version myself. :D

[Dino Makropoulos]

2) Who ever said it wasn't about greed. It is about greed and so is every other object ever invented. I think the vast majority of things are invented in the hope that they will sell and generate a profit. That's capitalism: if you can invent and make something that people will buy, you get money. Lot's of good inventions came out of that sytem.

Ken.
Greed don't inspire people to invent.
Imagination and challenge is the food for thought.
And nothing is wrong if the inventor and the dreamer makes few millions.
When we spend few billions annually for hospital bills.
To me, Steve is a great asset to our society and we must support him.
I think he should receive the Nobel price for coming up with the Saw Stop.
YCF dino

[Dev Emch]

I like the cliff notes form best as well. And I can only quote an ex senator from the state of wyoming as he is terse and I am not. Allan Simpson... "I have never heard such dribble in my life. That is pure nonsense".

Saws like the the northfield #4 have been made almost unchanged for 70 years. Why? Because they work! Why are people like you and others going to ram it down our throats to change designs that have worked without issue for 70 years! That is nonsense and you know it. Woodworking involves rotating cutting blades... that is how it works.

Frank Klausz said once... "the saw doesnt know the difference between flesh and wood. So keep your hands out of the area painted red".

And where are you going to stop? Joe Oliver bought the rights to the saftey head around the turn of the century from a german company. There was a time when jointers used square heads and the gaps between the lips and the head were such that many folks were sticking their fingers in there and cutting them off. This new head kept this from happening but also improved the performance of the jointer. Nonetheless, the jointer is still a dangerous machine and has its share of injury.

According to the medical folks, the most dangerous saw out there is the radial arm saw esp. when its used for ripping operations. Here the saw actually sucks the wood into the blade and your fingers with it. Now exactly how and what do you propose to do about putting this rube goldberg device on a RAS? Oh, my RAS isnt pregnent with twins, that is the new saw stop safety feature that was mandated upon us by uncle sam.

And what about shapers. You should see some of the meat cutters that I use all the time! It makes a panel raising router bit look like a dremel accessory. My shaper has an exensive sliding table on the left side which allows it to more or less function as both a tenoner and a multi router. The 4 knife terminus head uses a 40 mm spindle which is actually 1.6 inches in diameter. I also use a 4 knife, double angle, 40 mm Wynig moulder head for corregated stock knife cutters. These are a real joy in that there is NO safety feature built in. At least some of the newer router bits are called safety heads which limit the amount of meat they can remove in one pass. Often when useing the sliding table, there is no cover on the cutter at all. Are you going to mandate that we who use these german machines also be forced into installing this contraption in our shapers. I guess if my hot dog had to much saur krout and the winnie rolled out onto the table and contacted your saw stop, at least I would not have to go out and get me another winnie for lunch.

And how about chop saws? Has anyone ever lost a finger in one of these? These home depot queens that cost half of what your whole saw stop itself costs. Mandate the saw stop on these and we all loose as there is no way they can sell these with the saw stop attached and not loose money. To make an exception would be dripping hippracracy.

I remember one time when a drunk guy was working on a framing crew and was ripping stock lengthwise with a circular saw right down his pants leg. He managed to cut off his thumb and no one could find it. So the doctors were not able to do anything. Later that day when the site was cleaned up, the thumb fell out of the guard on the circular saw. Are you going to mandate that the saw stop be added to these as well?

Oh, and by the way, no one has ever lost a digit in a bandsaw right? Well that is sorta an expensive machine, lets figure out how to shoe horn 10 pounds of horse crap into a 5 pound bag and install a saw stop into these. Never mind how many viewers of this site oggle about how low grizzly can go on the prices of their wares. How would you guys like to have an additional $200 dollars in parts and royalties added to the price of your 8 inch jointer or bandsaw with no additional functionality added?

No. The only machine in the whole shop affected by this rube goldberg is the table saw for some odd reason. It is not the most dangerous machine nor is it the only machine. But it was the one chosen for this experiment. In Europe, mitre gage slots on shapers are not allowed because they are dangerous. Auxillary sliding tables have made up the difference and actually improved the performance significantly. On heavy duty jointers, the only guard allowed in many german speaking countries is the suva guard by suvamatic. Boy is that a nice guard! It is truely sweeeeeet. But in the US, that guard is an option and it costs around $1000 dollars to buy it so you dont often see it. Of all the strange european rules I have seen or heard about, not one talks about the saw stop or adopting the saw stop.

In the last ten or so years, I have seen the woodworking machine industry go down the tanks. There were once the big three around 1997. These were general, powermatic and delta. Northfield was never a major player in this consumer market as most hobbyists do not wish to drop $12,000 or more on a new table saw. Jet has evolved from a twiawanese me-to company into a real player and threat for this market. This was truely evident when they went from the blue paint job to the white paint job. But the consumer/hobbyist market is one of the tightest I have ever seen. They watch every screw and every decal! Last month, they held the auction in Tupelo for all the nifty machine tools used to build delta unisaws and what not. I have seen the quality of porter cable go down as well. What black and decker (Dewalt) have in mind for delta is anyone's guess. But I think the trend in cost engineering will continue and its doubtful that the saw stop will come onboard. It might by virtue of heavy handed big brother government tactics and your buddy will become rich. But in 1924 some time, JD Wallace introduced a retracting guard for jointers. This guard was like the third eye lid on some meat eating animals. It was attached to the outfeed table and covered the cutter head. As you jointed a board, the action of the board pushed the guard forward and down under the lip of the outfeed table. The insurance companies and schools yelled with joy about this saftey feature and wallace used it as selling tactic. Today, I am currently restoring one of these jointers and have talked to a few folks about it. The guard is missing on my jointer. Just a metal rod and a spring were left over. The same story ressonates with others as we tried to figure out what this rod and spring did! It was only after reading some very old dirty paper on the wallace that I figured out what this was. Like so many so called safety innovations, they get culled from the machine and thrown in the manure heap. Items that work are always there. Items that do not work and are a pain in the posterior are always on the missing parts list. So it will be with the saw stop. After the first time this thing fires, the customer will take a deep breath, then get xxxxxxxx about having to pay the replacement costs for the blade and the shoe/cawl and will replace the blade and disable the saw stop.

Sorry about this diatribe. It is rather long, of no significance and a bit off topic. Afterall, the actual saw stop does not cut, shape or sand lumber products. A real carbide tipped woodworker II on the other hand does.

[Craig Colvin]

I'm just picking this discussion up with this thread so I don't know the history, however...

I don't get it Dev? You seem to be arguing that the table saw should not be changed to be made more safe? What possible reason could you have for that sort of thinking?

Innovation is scary to a lot of people, and it appears to be scary to you as well. That's fine, no one is forcing you to use this new technology. Stick with your 70 year old technology if you choose, as you said it works just fine. I for one am all for new an innovative technology.

[Dev Emch]

1). My argument is that there are more dangerous machines than the table saw. If your going to require this, then do it on *ALL* machines that have a history of finger removal. Dont just pick on one type of machine because you happen to have a patent on it.

2). The business case for woodworking machines right now is dismal. Should a redesign be mandated, it will affect all of us. There will be no choice as there will be only enough capital and resources to pursue one solution. Not Two. It will be enough of a strain to push what is left of the big three (general, powermatic and delta) over the edge. There were at one time over 300 companies in the US alone making woodworking machines. Where are they today? And if the mandate also forces professional companies to adopt this technology, it can also spell the end of northfield who is also struggling to hold on and redefine what it means to survive.

3). You talk about choice. Well if the US forces this mandate on US sold table saws, then what happens to companies like SCMI, Panhans, Martin, Hoffman, etc.? These companies are driven more my EC rules and regulations than by what is going on in the north american market. Today, some of the best shaper tooling is only available in 30 mm and 40 mm spindle sizes. What happened to 1.25 inches? Well kiddies, its going wayside because the market is just disappearing. I have tried to get a 1.25 inch spindle for my shaper and it is not easy. They think of this as some custom made monster in north america. The market presence is very light and any major changes such as mandating saw stops could push them entirely out of the market leaving us as stranded travelers.

4). You can not change reality. Every video and magazine on the subject begins by saying... "Woodworking is inherently dangerous and these concepts are done by professionals with many years of experience. The magazine does not accept any responsibility for their work and you should observe all safety practices and use all safety guards provided with your machine. You should also read your manual carefully and understand it." And then old Norm chims in by saying that his glasses are safety glasses and that these are the most important safety device you can use.

Well, we know all this. At least if you have been cutting lumber since the mid seventies like I have, I hope you would have learned a thing or two about using woodworking machines. What I like about guards is that they assist in keeping your meat out of the path of the blade. That is a preventative measure. Saw stops are not preventative. They dont bar you from sticking your fingers where they dont belong. Rather, they freely allow you to stick your finger right into the blade and then violently explode and cause the entire blade to just disappear. Now you have lost a blade, a cawl and your set up. And if you dont have the spare parts on hand, you have also terminated your work progress until you can order up some replacement parts such as blades and cawls. For me, I use 12, 14 and 16 inch blades with 1.25 inch arbor holes. That is a 7 to 14 day lead time special order from the east coast. Congrats! I have just lost 1 to 2 manweeks of labor if I dont have spare blades to cover me on this.

5). Years ago, an instructor told us that the odds of using your ejection seat is 1 in 8. For every 8 pilots who fly planes with ejection seats, one of you will have the golden opportunity to test it out for real! I always felt that was a bit high but it made me realize that operating some machines just has a certain level of danger that cannot be changed or legislated away. It is an aspect of life and it is what it is. Woodworking machines have spinning cutters that remove wood. Its always been that way. One way to isolate the user is to make these machines fully CNC in function like the CNC routers and CNC mortisers. That seems to be the direction that industrial solutions are going. In fact, they now use the term traditional woodworking machines and modern wood processing machines. I think I got this from the english company wadkin. I can virtually eliminate the need for a table saw and a jointer with a straight line rip saw and a moulder both of which can have CNC control. So once again, if the forced changes for safety require a redesign of the table saw and jointer, then why not just forget about them at all. The market is small and shrinking and tight ass in nature. Not enough profit to be made. Stop production, shut down the plant, lay off the workers and focus on CNC routers, CNC straight line rip saws, CNC moulders and CNC mortisers.

Lastly, ask the makers what they think? But forget about asking Delta or Powermatic or Jet. These are marketing fronts now for foreign made machines. General is making too much money from the general international line to care about the domestic arm. Its only a matter of time before they cease domestic operations as well. More focused on making power transmission towers for quebec hydro than woodworking machines. Northfield is doing more and more custom machine work for industry than building woodworking machines as well. Folks, these companies are trying to survive right now by redefining their mission statements. About the only organization that will pay attention here is SCMI and that is because they make a ton of money by selling SCMI consorcium machines in the USA. Martin may listen. Hoffman is no longer making table saws so that is a wild card. Panhans will probably just pull out and who knows what Felder will do.

I am just glad to have found what I have at the time I was able to find it. I make my own parts and rebuild my own machines. In fact, I have even considered building my own jointer from scratch. So let these guys piddle with the saw stop. I will design and build my own table saw from the ground up including foundary pattens and machine shop work if that is what it takes for me *NOT* to be forced into using this contraption! And I doubt that I am alone on this..... the others are just playing it safe and not opening their mouths to get into trouble.

[Ian Barley]

...5). Years ago, an instructor told us that the odds of using your ejection seat is 1 in 8. For every 8 pilots who fly planes with ejection seats, one of you will have the golden opportunity to test it out for real! I always felt that was a bit high but it made me realize that operating some machines just has a certain level of danger that cannot be changed or legislated away.....

Dev - If the level of danger could not be changed your instructor would have said that for every 8 pilots who fly planes one of you will have the golden opportunity to fly screaming into the dirt in a ball of flame. The level of danger has been changed because the ejector seat has been invented. Like the Sawstop has been invented. Like the Sawstop, the ejector seat is not without a price. The corolary to your ejector seat statement is that 7 out of 8 planes are paying the cost/weight price of the ejector seat for no reason. Surely all we have to do is tell the pilots only ever to fly in perfectly maintained aircraft and never to go utside the operational envelope for the aircraft and there will be no need for ejector seats.

Sawstop is a good tool. As far as I can see most of the safety benefits come from things which are absolutely nothing to do with blade braking. It happens to have blade braking as well. Bravo. I strongly suspect that it will change the market substantially and that the change will be to the better.

[Dev Emch]

Ian... I concede. Your right about the ejection seat. Without it, your in a world of horse manure should you need to use it.

But one of my arguments was that of consistency. Why not put this thing on shapers? The most dangerous machine I have ever used is the shaper when its configured for either free form shaping or tenoner operations where the main fence is off the machine. Trust me, using table saws is child's play compared to this machine! If you have a problem with table saw blades giving you the willies, this will cause you to wet your pants! So why dont we put the safety device where it can do some real good. Often, table saw accidents nip off one or two fingers.... a major shaper accident can take your whole hand!

[Ian Barley]

Dev

I use shapers (we call them spindle moulders) every day. If there was a Shaperstop, that was otherwise at least as safe as the machine I use, I would buy it. If there was never a sawstop there will never be a Shaperstop (or a Bandsawstop, or a Crosscut stop, etc...)

In the meantime I just use the machines as safely as I can and make sure that the operations I use it for are appropriate to the tooling available. And in this instance I consider guards, fences, powerfeeds etc. to be part of the tooling. I have made the point previously that even Sawstop technology appeared tomorrow on every new machine that carried any risk, it would be many years before they were prevalent in all workshops. In the meantime we all need to bear the risks in mind and work on well maintained machines operating within their design envelope.

[Per Swenson]

Remember Seinfeld?
Yada,yada,yada,
My story,
I have been pushing wood through a table
saw for 30 years. My father who I now work with
Is 80 years young and has had a shop since his teens.
My son, is 15 and likes what I do.
I directed my Father one day to the sawstop website.
I asked what he thought and left the room.
When I came back he was on the phone.
I asked just what the heck he was doing when he hung up.
I bought it. Thats nice Bob, think we should discuss it?
Whats to discuss he said.
You would simply be stupid not to buy this saw.
Never mind that you might not cut your fingers off,
It is simply the best made saw out there of this type.
It will be here tomorrow, complete with gloat and 8x10
glossy pictures.
I refuse to to write a review or speculate on its merits
or lack thereof until I have this baby in my hot little hands.
And I really won't consider he said /she said pro/con arguments.
Unless of course you own one.
Per

[Dave Wright #2]

Dev,

Wow! It doesn't usually take more than one cup of coffee to work through a single page thread. Thanks for the thoughts. Let me see if I can boil it down.

Just work safely.

I don't buy this argument. They say that there are more than 30,000 ER visits on account of table saw cuts in the US each year. I bet that very few of the operators (victims?) thought they were working in an unsafe manner at the time. I also bet that a lot of the cuts happened to experienced workers. We all know to stop at red lights, yet every year thousands of people die in crashes after mentally blipping and failing to notice and stop at a red light. We're imperfect. I like having SawStop on my saw, just as I also like having airbags in my cars.

False trips, high costs, and downtime

Before the saws came out there were plenty of folks, such as the Power Tool Institute (PTI), saying that the blade brakes would often trip falsely and prove too inconvenient and expensive for professional settings. With several hundred in shops (as of this writing), those problems have not appeared. There have been a few false trips, in almost all cases on account of operator error. Keep a spare cartridge around and you're back working in 10 minutes. There have also been some saves. At this point it looks like things are working out a whole lot more like SawStop projected than how PTI warned. FWIW, I find the PTI tactics on this matter much more deceptive and offensive than SawStop's.

If the technology is to be required, it should be required on all power tools that can cut people.

Implementation of the technology on table saws is easier (big cabinet to hold the parts) and more cost effective (lower % added to tool cost) than on other power tools. You imply that brakes should not be required on table saws because the technology cannot reasonably be spread to all power tools. That doesn't make any sense to me. Should we require airbags on bicycles because they have been proven effective in cars? I don't think so.

The technology should not be forced on other manufacturers.

I agree! I believe that the marketplace should decide whether or not table saws should have blade brakes, but I don't have any problem with SawStop's CPSC petition because they are acting within the system. Don't like the system? Complain to your representatives. SawStop has no lobbyists. I don't believe there has been any bribing, influence peddling, threatening, illegal campaign contributions, or other immoral attempts to stack the deck in their favor. I also think that all of this CPSC fuss is moot. The petition won't be granted. Any broad industry requirements will arrive, if they ever do, after the patents have expired.

Why not just forget table saws and make everyone use CNC machines instead?

One could imagine OSHA deciding that table saws are unsafe, and barring their use in all professional shops under OSHA regulation. Safety innovations like SawStop could stop that from happening, and preserve our ability to work with table saws. Thanks SawStop!

The death of heavy and high quality tools

The trend these days is indeed toward cheaper and lighter construction. That tag does not apply to SawStop - or at least not their Cabinet Saw. Inspect one closely. You will find massive construction and accurate machining. I don't see much corner cutting, but I can imagine a number of ways the saw could have been built less expensively, which is one of the reasons I bought one of the early production versions. It's a very solid saw. I hope they keep that quality and do not yield to the temptation to evolve it into a cheap saw. In a time when everyone else is building 1950 designs to 2005 quality (or lack thereof), it is refreshing to see a company that builds 2005 designs with 1950 mass and attention to detail.

Regards,

Dave

[Mark Singer]

I am glad to see there are no strong opinions or lengthy responses on this topic....(looks like the typing class I should have taken:p )

[Kent Parker]

[QUOTE=Mark Singer]I am glad to see there are no strong opinions or lengthy responses on this topic....(looks the typing class I should have taken:p

Thanks for that levity Mark.:D I'm just trying to wake up easy this morning with my coffee and got trapped in this thread. :eek: Gee weezz guys....

KP

[Jim Becker]

I will not be running out to buy a SawStop saw. It's a great machine and has features, such as the riving knife and collection hood, that should always have been included with table saws. I also have a lot of respect for the actual SawStop mechanism and believe it's a step in the right direction. But those things are not enough to make me sell my Jet cabinet saw and replace it with a SawStop. I will also admit, however, that I was quite disturbed by the inventor's initial legal crusade to get the mechanism mandated, rather than by just doing a good job at selling. That turned off a lot of folks and could very well have delayed acceptance in the marketplace...folks just don't like being told what to do!

My next table saw will be a Euro slider...someday. With the exception of the blade stop detail, I would get more robustness and things that I'd like to have, particularly the slider without losing the riving knife, dust collection, etc. (And the sliders you can add-on to a US-style saw are not even in the same league given how far away from the blade they are and their short stroke) For now, my Jet left-tilt machine will continue to live and be used...carefully as always.

But if I were someone going for my first table saw, I would have to put SawStop on my short list. 'Good things there.

[Alan Turner]

I am opening a teaching studio for woodworking/furniture making, and I love old iron. I have even bought a bit of it of late. That said, were safety not an issue, I would be in line for the Oliver 260, twin arbor double motor slider. But, a student accident would be a tragedy that I do not want to live with, and so a SawStop will be joining the old iron collection. Were it available on other machines, I would seriously consider it. I taked to GAss about that issue, and he said they can do it, but it is cost prohibitive at this time.

I watch these threads with much interest. As soon as I have a roof on the new (old) site, I will ordering.

[Ken Waag]

I shall try to be breif (er) this time around, so pardon my total disregard for grammar. And I'll have to eliminate some politeness and nicities, so if anything sound tearse, it's just meant to be breif. Just want to reply to some of the comments made.

Dino-I stand well corrected. It's not just greed. Imagination, challenge and a genuine desire to make things better do inspire invention. I agree with you about Steve Gass. So many get a bad spin on the money issue. But if this device saves billions, as expected, in injury related costs, he should make millions. And in the process, be thought of as an "asset to our society" rather than greedy.

Dev-I agree with you that this should not be forced on anyone. we should each get to choose. The RAS is dangerous as my brother will attest. It is disappearing with the advent of the SCMS, which is less dangerous, but will still eat a finger if you let it.

The TS is the most widely used machine and as a result has the highest number of injuries, so it is a good starting point. The sawstop technology is being prototyped and developed on a number of other machines, some of which you mentioned. You see negative impact of this, but I see the cost coming way down as the volume goes up. You see some image of misery (that I don't quite undertanad) as this technology is applied to more machines and industrial settings. I see a decline in injuries numbering in the thousands per year, resultant savings in the $billions, and most of all people with Fingers and limbs attached.

I have to single this statemnet out as a point of true disagreement: "After the first time this thing fires, the customer will take a deep breath, then get xxxxxxxx about having to pay the replacement costs for the blade and the shoe/cawl and will replace the blade and disable the saw stop." I ask the members at large: If this thing fired are you xxxx about replacement costs and disabling the system? or are you (like me) thankin' Your God and Steve Gass that you're putting on a new blade and a cartridge with your own ten fingers, and not looking through sawdust dust for a digit.

Dev, I really admire your dedication, ingenuity and knowledge of the old machines. I'd buy your beer (or soda) all night just to hear you talk about that stuff. And as much as I agree that you shouldn't be forced to use a sawtop, a crummy blade guard or anything else: I also feel that you shouldn't feel a need to denegrate the product or people who choose to employ it.

I've followed this story out of interested for years, and read various arguments. (I personally have kept quite until now, as the device is actually available.) There seems to be singnificant number who are vehimantely against it, and can't for the life of me understand why. Many just aren't interested in it for various reasons primarily cost and that I do understand. Don't need it or want it, don't buy it. But so many that argue fully against it. Not just that they aren't interested, but that its a terrible thing to have come along. I'm so very curious about this. A great experiment would be to have those some how opposed to this device raise their hands. Would there be a single amputated digit among those hands?

Per- I like your Dad. This quote "You would simply be stupid not to buy this saw" was my thinking from the beginning (MY thinking only, I am not suggesting any stupidity on the part of anyone who doesn't buy this saw). When the technology first came out, My brother (who nearly amputated a finger on RAS) and I agreed that if this panned out there would be no logical choice but to buy it. Very dissapointed that the big guys didn't embrace it. When the Sawstop saw became available and the reports looked good, like your Dad, there was just no question for me. If I didn't buy this saw and someday I had an accident and an amputation or other serious injury, how in the world would I feel. (the fact that it had some upgrades I had hoped for was icing).


Dave Wright #2- During this time while I was quite and waiting, you have been graciously presenting the facts in response to numerous posts regarding the Sawstop. And your disection of some of the least credible arguments against the brake technology on this thread echoes my own thoughts in better wording. (and I'm especially thankful as that saved me a chapter, and I suspect people are already hiiting the "next" button at the very sight of my name, thanks to my novel length posts).

To All- Well, that wasn't brief at all was it? But a good 30% shorter than my last post. So... I guess it's "less filling, same poor taste". Good Day!

[Mark Singer]

Like my uncle once said..."30% is 30 % ....come on Moshe vat should ve take our business down the street? ""whose even askin' don't look on me!"
"please just vatch your fingers...."

[Paul B. Cresti]

Guys,
I have not read all the posts so excuse me if I repeat anything. I feel the American style cabinet saw at prsent is antiquated. Why even bother tryin to add all kinds of safety features to a questionable tool to begin with. Do not get me wrong I think the Saw Stop idea is a very good one and I also owned a Unsaw, contractor saw... As far as a table saw goes I think the most important thing is to get your hands away from the blade at all times. Allow the machine to be near that blade not you. How do you accomplish this ... a quality European slider. This type of saw allows one to remove you from the path of the blade while cutting both solid stock and sheet goods. Clamping the wood to the slider and moving the slider past the blade. This is exactly what Dino has been talking about in some of his posts, I believe he calls it the "dead wood" concept. The wood is stationary and the person does not move the wood or handle it. Why has the Anerican manuf not adopted the European sliders (which were invented a long time ago) I am not sure exactly but cost must have something to do with it. In addition do not forget us as the consumers also have added to it. We want to pay next to nothing and also expect quality, hence the old cabinet saw continues and now is outsourced to other countries where labor is cheaper, material.....

Lets face it woodworking is a dangerous hobby and profession. The sawstop is a very good idea but to truly solve the problem means to remove you from the danger. The sawstop may prevent you from loosing a finger or such but you will still get hurt and i am not about to test it. I know have a slider and am no longer near the blade.

[Dev Emch]

Boy, this has been exhusting. You guys sure have an opinion here. As for me, I am just going to let the manufacturers fight this one out. Truth is, the only "NEW" manufactuers I would be watching would be Altendorf and Martin with a bit more concern about martin. Custom high end cabinet work is still live in this country and there will always be the type who cannot buy pre-fab cabinet and architectural work. He has to have custom. I have always loved traditional or hard wood saws and turned my nose up at the newer panel saws. Martin's last traditional saw was the T-17. The only table saw they make today is the T-73 and its a panel saw. But I have come to really like it. So maybe now is the time to sell off my beloved oliver 88-DM and Martin T-17 and upgrade to the T-73 *before* they to upgrade to say a T-74 with saw stop technology. Oh well, decisions. Well guys, I am outta here. I have to complete a kitchen I am working on so that I can scrape up some dead presidents. Dead presidents that may be going to Mr. Martin. Later:):)

[Dev Emch]

Oh Ken...

One more point and then I really gotta do some serious woodwork today.

I have owned my martin T-17 for a few years now and love that saw. About one year ago, the off button malfunctioned. No, it failed. All of you who know how mag starter systems work will know that if I start my saw, there is no way to stop it. But the martin electric box has an IEC Allan Bradley main line disconnect switch right on the side of the same box that has the off switch. So for the last year, I have been using a main line disconnect switch to turn off my martin. My plan is to replace all the switchs with Allan Bradley bulletin 800s but that means doing work on the electric box and I have been just to busy.

The point is this. Human nature is predictable and when you have a workable kludge around a problem, humans will tend to avoid revisting that problem. If I did not have the disconnect switch, I would go out and repair the off switch but.... I have other fish to fry that bring in dead presidents.

So here I am. Too cheap and lazy to repair an -OFF- switch and your telling me that all the woodworkers are going to jump through loops to repair the blade and cawl when this thing fires. Naaaaaa, I dont believe it. Also if you have ever bought and sold woodworking machines to woodworkers, you will know that the majority are bottom feeders. Virtually everything I have is second, third or fourth hand. I did buy my german shaper new but that was an exception and it took almost one year for me to get it.

So I gotta run but I look forward to having a good laugh when you find that a significant percentage of all saw stops are never put back online after a fireing. Comments not needed... lets just wait and see. As I said, I am going to let the manufacturers duke this out and in the process, try to snag a new martin T-73 before they have to bend over.

Later...

[Dev Emch]

Boy, I am just not getting out of here! One more Post. This is addicting!

I have to say cudos off to Dino and Paul Cresti. You guys are 100 percent dead on right! You guys should be psycologists (sp?) because you can analyze stuff rather well.

Woodworking has been with me since the mid '70s. It was only about 10 years ago that I began doing more and more for others. Folks like it and wanted me to do it. I used to be an engineer and now I do custom woodworking. Go Figure.

In the progression of things, I sold a unisaw and bought two northfields. One a slider and one not. Sold the non-slider. Then I bought an oliver 88-DM with a hardwood slider (Rolling Top). Then I bought a martin T-17 with a full bore european style sliding table. It will really do a nice job on a four foot section of sheet goods. Then I made a deal with a buddy to get his porter jointer and part of the deal involved selling off my northfield slider. Buying and Selling... the way of vintage woodworking machines!

Not only did I like the EXTREME accuracy of the martin table, but it also has cam clamps to hold the item to the table while you do the cut. A similar argument can be made for the oliver sliding table. But an even better argument can be made for an oliver 88-DX or oliver 88-DY which have massive sliding tables made from cast iron and supported on cinched roller bearings. These tables have T-slots in the them for holding custom clamping and jig attachments.

When I use part time high school kids, one of the first things they are told is that if I find you putting your fingers near the blades, *YOUR GONE*. No exceptions! The shaper also has sliding tables and massive hold down clamps.

And the T-73 that I am looking at right now is the pinnacle of what Dino was talking about. I can knock out an entire high end kitchen, minus glue up and finish of course, in less than 1/2 day. Rough and fuzzy stock to finished parts ready for glue up in less than 1/2 day. Part of this speed comes from the ability to quickly and precisely hold down lumber as its goes through the saw.

In closing, I have to agree that the conventional cabinet saw is dead. I never really looked at from this perspective until Paul brought it up, but he is right. The Europeans have made mitre slots per say illegal long ago. Yes, my martin as a single mitre slot; however, its a unique dovetail design and NO ONE has ever seen a martin mitre gauge. Even the US based martin sales guys have never seen one in person! I have held on to my "vintage" machines because they were the closest I could find to the european sliders within my price range at the time. So I think the time has come to sign the deal with martin and bring home a T-73.

Any way, thanks and I am outta here. P.S. Do you think Martin should give you guys a bit of commision for selling a T-73?

[Per Swenson]

Mr. Emch ,

You leave me speechless.


Per

[Ken Waag]

Dev,

I don't know how closely you've looked at the Sawstop, but the brake is just a cartridge that you snap into place. About like clicking a cassette tape into a player.

I also find Paul's Cresti's comments to be excellent advice. Anything that keep you away from the blade is good. I use an Excaliber sliding table and feel a lot better crosscutting a piece with my hands over on the cc fence.

Yes we'll let the mfgrs fight it out. Although in the end that actually means the consumers will decide. So its back to you and me.

On a seperate subject that you mention, I don't see the demise of the cabinet saw nor the entire tool industry as you do. I've seen more innovations in the last 5 years than the previous 20. Look at the features that are being added to tools from laser guides to digital readouts. Look at all the innovative aftermarket companies making devices to improve the quality/ease of our woodwrking. Ittura, Incra, MicroJig and on and on. On a grander scale laser cutting, CNC and other leading edge technologies of a whole new horizon of possibilities. You don't have to embrace these, just as some today enjoy using only hand tools. But to predict doom and gloom ignores the facts.

Well, I too shall sign off. I hope you get the saw you're looking at, and I hope you fix your switch.

[Dev Emch]

Well, you guys are bad!!!! Here I am stuffing lunch down the cake hole and what am I doing? Eating with one hand and posting with the other. So much for table manners!

Yes, there have been some major innovations and I have been slow to adopt them. One in point is the steel and concrete composite construction used by martin. The hoffman and martin shapers are almost identical but I went with hoffman for two reasons. First, I did not want to spend an extra $10,000 to $15,000 dollars on all of martin's electrical gizzmos. There are no cranks! Its all driven my servo motors. By the way, were talking shapers here. Hoffman still had a more traditional shaper although they make several different models including the prisim and the fully automatic 2000. Second, the hoffman is solid cast iron. But you can tell that hoffman copied martin or martin copied hoffman, the designs are that similar. So hoffman gave me much more choice. The same is true about jointers. Hoffman offers several options in jointers including widths from 16 inches to 24 inches and extended tables that can push a hoffman to 13 feet in length. Martin offers only one jointer and that comes in 20 inches. But the martin design is one generation above the design basis of hoffman and I have come to appreciate the concrete composite construction. Also, this time around, the martin jointer is massively cheaper than the hoffman jointer. So even in the extreme high end of things, price does matter or at least play an influence.

But I am not an old studgy either. When I ordered my hoffman, the US dealer told me that I didnt want the HSK quick change spindle system. I agreed and took his word for it. Later on, when I was in germany visting another shop, I saw this HSK system. HOLLY COW! So I immediately ordered the HSK upgrade from Borner GmBH. When it arrived, I had to install it myself with the help of a german tech on the phone. The downside was that I have only 30 and 40 mm spindles. No 1.25 inch spindles. The upside was that I could use a metalworking CNC VMC ER-40 HSK-80 Deckel-Maho spindle directly in my shaper to hold conventional router bits. It also holds the 3/4 inch CNC router tooling if i wish. Just swap out the ER class collet for 12 mm and replace it with one for 3/4 inch. With the hoffman sliding table, this option now allows me to convert my shaper into a 4500 pound, 12 HP multi router. Lastly, I have made up a 1/2 inch and 3/4 inch stub arbor which allows me to use the smaller shaper cutters made by old hickery and/or sold by woodcraft. Because HSK tooling is hollow, I am not able to get say a 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch spindle. There is not enough metal between the center hole and the OD for this to be safe. It take me about 7 seconds to swap out a spindle and reinstall a new one with the HSK system.

So for certain setups that are critical and often, I have a line card on which all pertinent info is written. It tells me what cutter, where the cutter goes on the spindle in terms of spacers below and above, which spindle (30 mm, 40 mm or ER-40/collet) and what the fence setups are and what the spindle height is in thousandths. The hardest thing to set up is the fence setups. The spindle height is controlled by an Elgo Electric Positionsanzeige DRO mounted in the electric box on the right side of the machine. I am rather pleased on how this device works. Its not nearly as expensive and accurate as those found in the metalworking industry but it does not cost nearly as much! And its small and bezel mountable.

But getting back to topic. Martin and Hoffman have had some tough times like all the companies have had. But they are still alive and running. Remind me again where powermatic and delta are made. Was that McMinnville TN and Tupelo Miss.? Or perhaps have these operations been shut down and moved. The only way to justify bringing in the germans is if there is a business case to get the machine payed for in improvements and savings. Under certain circumstances, that is the case; however, it is not the norm.

I for one am glad I am not in the consummer tool business because it is very tight. And a few years ago, we saw the introduction of hybrid contractor saws with the two most notable being the DeWalt and the Jet. Have you played with the sliding tables on these? Have you looked at the price tags? If your not impressed, your not paying attention. To some degree, these hybrids are a new development and a true threat to the low end cabinet saw market. Then look at grizzly and sears. That is some tough competion comming down the road. Its no martin T-73; however, on the other hand, it doesnt require a small business loan and 5 years to pay down either!

So two things. First, I am very glad that I am not in this Gass guys shoes. No matter what you guys say, he has a tough row to hoe as I am not the only pro wood butcher who respectfully disagrees with the whole concept. Second, your assesment of my views on the industry are not completely fair. I do *not* believe that this industry is dying. I do think that certain segments of it are going to be agressively redefined and that some serious hobbyists are going to rebel. The proof is in the pudding and the eating. It is very difficult to sell a unisaw these days at a decent price on the used market. Mint condition olivers on the other hand virtually sell themselves. Same is true about martins. So what does that mean in the greater scheme of things?

[Jim Becker]

Dev, I am thinking that you are getting a little far afield from the discussion about SawStop. Martins, etc., really aren't on the cards for 99.999% of the folks who might read this...that's not to say that learning about them isn't interesting, but it's kinda not what I think the originator of this thread was trying to accomplish. SMC's population is largely folks with low-end contractors' style saws through cabinet saws like the UniSaw and similar with a few folks that have Mini Max and Felder sliders or combo machines. The group is largely hobbyists with a generous population of pros mixed in.

Please understand I'm not criticizing--'just pointing who the audience is. SawStop is in the price range for a large percentage of SMC members.

[JayStPeter]

Whew, I have to admit, I only spent about 5 minutes. So, I read about 1/10th of what was written here.
There are saws out there ranging from around $50 into the stratosphere. It seems that both functionality and safety are improved as you go through the range.
Personally, this is a hobby and I can't justify spending 5 figures for a table saw. In fact, just getting to 4 figures was tough enough. There probably won't be a euro slider or anything with an Altendorf or Martin name in my shop anytime soon. If the size and price of a Felder slider was the same as a SawStop or PM66, I suspect there would be no more PM66 and SawStop would go out of business. But, until then, the SawStop at least offers improved safety at a price that may be in range. If the SawStop had been available when I bought my Unisaw, I probably would've stretched for it. That's a stretch I might've been able to make. Reality check ... if it took $5K+ just to get a tablesaw, I wouldn't be doing this.

Jay

[lou sansone]

I have actually read all ( most all ) the words here. I was wondering if anyone knew the actual breakdown of wood shop related injuries and how many were something that the saw stop would have prevented.

lou

[JOSEPH GOVEA]

Hello to everyone who has posted regarding this thread,

I have been into woodworking for a little less than a year. But I consider myself a little more along since I do have some carpenter experience & have been in the collision repair business since I was twleve. As Per had noted that his father had realized the cabinet saw industry had made a safety improvement to the saw industry. I too have seen improvments automotive and machine wise, I know there are some people who do not like change and that some will embrace it. I have yet to hear someone complain to me about an airbag saving there life. Though some have come out of an accident with minor abrasions/bruises they are still fortinate to live another day. I have looked/ researched other saws and found them to be very high quality saws, as noted in numerous others threads and forums you can't go wrong with any of the top cabinet saws. Its pretty much you're color prefrence. As for someone in the market for a cabinet saw I am glad to have had the option to purchase this saw w/the safety technology. There are some who feel they do not need this technology and all I can say is more power to you. I would like to thank Dave Wright on his breakdown of the Sawstop, Also Ken Waag for posting your thread.:)

[Greg Mann]

I have actually read all ( most all ) the words here. I was wondering if anyone knew the actual breakdown of wood shop related injuries and how many were something that the saw stop would have prevented.

lou

That is a legitimate question to a point, Lou, but does it really matter? If the system only prevents 10% of table saw accidents I would consider it a success. Seat belts have not eliminated traffic deaths but only the most devoted Luddite would claim they have had no positive impact. This is about continuous improvement in the safety of one type of tool that has recognizable dangers associated with its use. In my mind it does not matter if the device works perfectly every time, yet. It represents an effort towards a legitimate goal; to make the workshop safer.

Greg

[Keith Christopher]

I think the point here is missing. Is this a good tablesaw ? Does it have the features/performance/durability you look for in a good tool ? if it does then it's not different than buying a powermatic or unisaw -fill in saw name here- It seems everyone is focusing on the fact it has a blade stopping brake safety feature. so the question I have is:


Is it a good saw ?

If it is then the brake is just icing on the cake as I see it. I'd pay the price for it simply because it's a good saw. The brake seems pointless to argue, because HOPEFULLY it'll never have to activate.

Good saw ?
easy to true up ?
durable ?
have options ?

[Roy Wall]

I think the point here is missing. Is this a good tablesaw ? Does it have the features/performance/durability you look for in a good tool ? if it does then it's not different than buying a powermatic or unisaw -fill in saw name here- It seems everyone is focusing on the fact it has a blade stopping brake safety feature. so the question I have is:


Is it a good saw ?

If it is then the brake is just icing on the cake as I see it. I'd pay the price for it simply because it's a good saw. The brake seems pointless to argue, because HOPEFULLY it'll never have to activate.

Good saw ?
easy to true up ?
durable ?
have options ?

Precisely!!

Their website makes comparisons to the PM66 and the Unisaw -- so it is marketed to be those types of saws AND EVEN BETTER! PM66 goes for $2100 basically, this saw is $2500.

I would be interested in the contractor type with cast wings....

[Dev Emch]

For those wondering, what I have seen is that the most dangerous per capita machine in the shop is the radial arm saw. This is esp. true when used for ripping. FWW did have some info on this a while back. In terms of out right accidents, the table saw is the king. Please dont quote me on this as I only lightly remember these figures. Its something on the order of 25,000 to 30,000 accidents present at the ER per year with table saw related injury. What was notable; however, was that the vast majority of these were from desk top, toy table saws. What do you guys call these? Their the ones with a glorified, universal motor circular saw bolted to the bottom of an aluminium or plastic top with a plastic base. I used to have one of these made by Makita and it used a 7 or 8 inch blade. When you remove these makita, ridgid, delta, ryobie desk top related injuries, the next largest single group is the radial arm saw. The cabinet saw related injuries were down the list. Contractors were somewhere between the RAS and the cabinets.

Have I ever been injured? YUP! But here is the ultimate laugh. There was no motor attached to the culprit. I was trimming out a door on a rental property and was using a "cigar chomper". This one was a relatively new LION trimmer. New meaning not one of the older, 100 year old oliver or american or fox trimmers. This was the tiny one made by Lion and sold by outfits like woodcraft and garret wade. For those who are not familar with this, its a lever operated mitre trimmer with two razor shop blades that move left and right. I was holding it by wraping one hand around the top frame and moving the blade in the opposite direction to do my precision mitre trim cut. But the two blades are mounted opposing each other and on the return path, the *OTHER* blade shaved off the tip of my thumb. Well, not really. This nice fillet of meat was still attached at the end and was flopping like it was on a hinge. Blood everywhere! The cut was so precise and accurate that the doctors were able to reattach this chunk of meat. Darn. Now they can still take my finger prints off that thumb:) Jokes aside, who is watching out for me when we use these cigar chompers? If you have ever done picture framing or other super precise trim work with mitre angles, then you know how nice these tools can be. With all the heavy iron I have, I thought it would be the shaper that takes a part of me... not an 18th century type picture frame trimmer operated by human power. Oh well, now at least I know better.

As for the SawStop saw. Well, that saw is only the first saw to incorporate this feature. After being turned down by each and every saw builder including delta, powermatic, northfield, jet, and who knows how many others, these guys went out and built their own table saw company. So in the engineering business, we used to call this a "proof of concept" device. In other words, the saw's engineering was more focused around this safety system than the actual process of table sawing wood products. Put another way, they took a saw stop device and built a table saw around it. Naturally it uses a 10 inch blade and a format familar to most woodworkers who have used unisaws and powermatic 66 table saws. It fits that demographic. But over the last few years, I have seen the jet xtra saw really come up and challenge the unisaw for market domination. Today, given the choice, I would buy the Jet because it is a slightly better made machine than today's version of the unisaw. Sorry Guys. Jet improved quality and Delta let quality slip. But the jet, unisaw and PM66 are so darn close to each other that its hard to differentiate on significant points other than color. One is white, one is gold and one is gray. But its the PM66 and the unisaw who have really been hit by this market errosion. Well see how well this saw stop saw holds up in actual trials where you have to 1). actually cut wood, and 2). see who makes the bling bling add ons. With the unisaw or PM66 or jet, I can almost be assured that any bling bling add on will be available.

I cannot stop nor do I wish to stop this saw stop saw from being made. After all, its not me who has to front a ton of start up capital nor is it me who is going to loose it all. Quite likely, I will sniff out the auction to see if there is any decent metalworking machines to be had.

But the bigger point is not whether the saw stop table saw is good or bad but rather that this concept begins to invade other makers like northfield or martin. If the saw stop company were to succeed and only the saw stop saw were to use this idea, i would be happy as a clam and tickled pink. This way, everyone gets what they are looking for. I get my martin with no saw stop and you guys get your saw stop saw with the saw stop. That is ideal and that is what I want. I am happy and you are happy. That is also the capitalist way in that we all have choice.

[Ken Waag]

I have actually read all ( most all ) the words here. I was wondering if anyone knew the actual breakdown of wood shop related injuries and how many were something that the saw stop would have prevented.

lou

Lou,

I recently read an article online adressing that very issue. If I can find it again, I'll definitely post it.

If my memory serves, Dev Emch is correct. Approx 30,000 ER visits for the year reported, related to TS. Mechanism varied of course, so some were blade related, some kick back etc. The author of the article I mentioned tried to break it down with regards to the Sawstop.

And the RAS is per machine the worst offender. Fortunately there are far fewer of them in use. (no offense to RAS users, but DO BE CAREFUL)

P.S. here is a tidbit from Sawstop's site with some numbers:
The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission reports that there were approximately 33,000 injuries from table and bench saws in 1998 that were sufficiently serious to require a hospital visit. Of these injuries, approximately 95% were hand and finger injuries, with approximately 3000 amputations of one or more fingers.

[Dev Emch]

Talking about finger accidents. Back in high school, we had a votech accident that got all the red lights flashing. I was not votech so I did not see what happened but I heard from it from my shop teacher. Yes, I am one of those super lucky, super fortunate kids who not only took wood shop in school, but get this, **WAS REQUIRED** to take wood shop to graduate.

In any event, this feller was cutting a dado groove on a board using the table saw. It was to accept a single sheet of glass so it only a single blade or so wide in terms of kerf thickness. The board was thin and slightly bowed. The guy tossed the board up there, measured the height of the blade against the side of the board and went on with his business. As he cut the dado, he pushed down on the board as it was fed through thereby flattening it and taking out the bow. His hand was right over the blade when he felt a strange sensation.

He picked up his hand and looked at it and it did not look any different than before. As he turned his hand over to look at the palm side, four of his fingers flopped over and were hanging on meat hinges. The saw had cut right through the bone but left the top meat and skin in place. About this time, PANIC and PANDAMONEUM! Blood Everywhere. Call the police. Call the ambulance. Call the parents. In the end, the fingers were not saved. Maybe today they could have saved the fingers... who knows. But each time i run a large chunk of wood through the saw in a similar dado operation, this accident comes to mind and reminds me to make double sure that I dont run my hand accross the blade plane no matter what. Use a chicken stick or push guide. There are plenty of macho guys out there with fewer than 10 digits. I am not one of these. But I do not have any chicken sticks that dont have cuts and marks left over from errant blade contact.

As for kick backs. The biggest error or mistake anyone makes is that kick backs are caused by binding fences. And of course, I have heard that sickening argument about left tilt versus right tilt until I need to vommit.

Have you guys ever seen what a true kick back is like when a 7.5 Horse Power, 3600 RPM Louis Allis motor spinning a 16 inch, 30 tooth deep gullet blade throws something back at you? Its like a cannon. Get hit in the belly with this one and you will regret it. Chunks of wood can be left impaled into the wall.

That is a lot of kinetic engergy being released! Where did it come from? Just coming in contact with the sides of the saw blade during a bind up? Before you answer this, think about it. You have one side of the blade moving upwards toward the roof and the opposite side diving down into the table. Its only the tangent of the top arc of the blade where the tangent velocity vector is pointing to you or the wall.

So here is the secret of the kick back. Numerous factors can contribute to the wood "riding up" on the blade in the front or face of the kerf during the cut. This will cause one to three teeth to get a good bite into the wood without actually cutting it. Now, as these teeth move backwards toward you, they fling the board with 80 or so percent energy conversion efficiency toward you. So that is an energy transfer driven by 7.5 HP of instantly delieverable energy or impluse.

So yes, if your fence is not accurate, it can cause you to push the board into the blade and cause it to burn and finally ride up on the blade. So as long as your fence is spot on accurate relative to the blade plane, you will be O.K.

But regardless of fence or left tilt versus right tilt, there are two things you can do to prevent kick back. Simple Things. First, always maintain a constant and assertive down pressure on the board being run through the saw. if you take the down force off, you run the risk of kick back. This happens often when your repositioning yourself during a rip cut and you take the down force off your chicken stick. The second thing is to always use a splitter when possible. Now your splitter can be as simple as a small section of veneer glued inline with the blade on your insert or as fancy as a crank up/crank down shark's fin or riving knife. They both work. Its sole purpose in life is to keep the board from yawing over and riding up on the kerf face thereby setting you up for a kick back.

Here again, these safety tips are based on prevention. If you prevent the reason for an accident, you dont have the consequences of the accident for it never happened. Same is true with errant fingers getting removed. If you use and set up your guard correctly, you will prevent yourself from sticking your finger in the blade. If I cant get my finger into the path of the blade, then there will never be an opportunity to fire a saw stop. I have seen the pictures of the saw stop using hot dogs. If you look closely, you will notice a nice little knick in the hot dog. So yes, you may have saved your finger, but its going to hurt! I am much more comfortable in just using the guard and chicken sticks and push sticks.

[Alan See]

Keith, You asked if it was a good saw. Yes! Even if you pulled out the braking system and bypassed the electronics associated with it, you would still have a 10" NA style table saw to rival all others. Beefy, accurate, stable and safe. Will it last for 50 years? I won't know for a long, long time, but I think it will. Everything about this saw appears to be well thought out, and well built. I am one of the people who signed up to pre-order this saw along, long time ago. After a year of design and production delays, I almost gave up on Sawstop. I spent a lot of time in the local Woodcraft store fondling their tricked-out PM66, and lusted after it with all my heart. Now that I have the Sawstop, I am very glad I waited. If any one lives in the Dallas, Texas area and wants to take a look at one, send me a message. I won't be doing the hotdog test though.

The Sawstop cabinet saw is quite a step up from my first saw - a Ryobi BT3000 - and is really more saw than I will ever need. Do you know how much flak I took from SWMBO when I told her I had ordered a new $3K-ish shop toy? NONE! She immediately agreed that investing in a blade brake system was a no-brainer. Confidentially, I'm glad that Sawstop focused first on cabinet saw production instead of contractor's saws. If the Sawstop contractor saw had been available, It would have been much more difficult to talk her in to popping for the Cab saw;) .

[Mark Singer]

Dev,

I must say I read your description of the injuries a few times! It is a good thing for all of us to remember these machines are dangerous! It is also good to understand the physics of the machine , the board and how the accident develops. We should never get overly confident on a tablesaw...or be afraid of it either. Instead try to understand it thouroughly....your descriptions and analysis is very informative. There have been some close calls since I have been on SMC and I have tried to explain these things as well.

[Dev Emch]

Thanks Mark... There is not a day or two that these accidents dont inhabit some part of my mind when I run the heavy iron. As dumb as it sounds, always ask yourself "O.K. Where is the blade?" just before you begin to cut. This is esp. true when running heavy duty shaper cutters. A couple of years ago, I saw a tenoner used for doing tenons on timber frames. Holly Cow! If you didnt have religion before you used this, you would afterwards! I think the thing has four circular saw blades. You clamp it onto your timber and then run one lever which pushes two parallel blades downwards to cut the tenon faces. These are sping loaded so the blades come up when done. Then you run the second set which have two blades whose axis is 90 degrees to the first two blades. These two blades then complete the tenon by cutting the cheeks. The guys using these would cut these enormous tenons in mere seconds. All those blades made it look like a midevil torture device. It is possible that this gizzmo ran all four blades down on a single pass of a lever. I was just amazed by how much blade area was freely exposed! It was hard to fathom where all the blades were at any time.

My point about writing all this stuff for this thread is more about us realizing that these machines are about as dangerous as they come. And often, its the machine we think of as the least dangerous, like my Lion Trimmer, that causes the most damage in the shadow of ignorent bliss. One of us will read this, go out and buy a saw stop saw and then get his finger turned into apple sauce with a router table on a quickie project to get something done for his daughter's school play which starts in 20 minutes. This is the anatomy of an accident. Accidents dont just happen. They are a sequential series of tiny, minor little events that compound one another and evolve into a disaster. Any one of which in isolation can be dealt with and difused quickly. But taken together and in sequence, LOOK OUT!

[Bill Neely]

I don't think airbags vs sawstop is really an apt comparison. I wonder how many blade contact injuries were fatal? I think it's a great tool for those who want it but I really have a problem with sawstop's self serving lawsuit. My 2 centavos.

[lou sansone]

That is a legitimate question to a point, Lou, but does it really matter? If the system only prevents 10% of table saw accidents I would consider it a success. Seat belts have not eliminated traffic deaths but only the most devoted Luddite would claim they have had no positive impact. This is about continuous improvement in the safety of one type of tool that has recognizable dangers associated with its use. In my mind it does not matter if the device works perfectly every time, yet. It represents an effort towards a legitimate goal; to make the workshop safer.

Greg

I am not advocating one way or the other, I was simply asking a question on the magnitude of the problem.
lou

[Dave Wright #2]

Bill,

Airbags add $100 - $200 to the cost of the car, are "invisible" until needed, use sensors and modern electronics to differentiate between accidents and normal operation, act with astonishing speed, and save lives. The SawStop has 5 of these 6 characteristics, which is close enough for me to consider them comparable.

Edit: On the other hand, SawStop cannot be bought at a car dealership, does not use chemical reactions, can be easily replaced by the owner, and does not call On-Star when activated. Maybe it's not comparable. But seriously, if one were to compare SawStop to something, what would be a better choice than airbags? I'm open to suggestions.

Regards, Dave

[Dev Emch]

Point taken. But on the other hand, I drive a Dodge Cummins. Hey I have to compensate somehow dont I:) I "turned" off my air bags when I found out how expenisive they are. The driver side is also a partial safety issue. The air bag interferes with my blowing my horn. I have to really pound the streering wheel to get the stock horn to work. I fixed that also by adding a concealed Hadley which runs off the 12 volt compressor. I put in a surplus MAC truck pneumatic accumulator along with a 12 VDC compressor to run the horn and a limited number of air tools if I need them. I am now installing a Muncie PTO with a Munci hydraulic pump on the transmission. This is to run my new trailer which has a hydraulic bed that goes all the way to the ground for loading and moving heavy iron. Sorta a trailer and fork lift in one. My own design and construction. But that is another post or possibley OT. My biggest fear are the idiots who drive tiny cars and cut you off when you have two or three olivers on a trailer comming into Las Vegas like last summer. My motor is an inline 6 diesel that weighs close to 1000 pounds. If I cannot stop and hit you with that, I will knock you into the next county so you you better hope you have air bags! The same applies to many many woodworking accidents. They are more often the result of bad practice and taking short cuts that one ought not be taking. So please guys, practice safe table saw operations and keep your paws away from the blades!!!!!!!!

[Ken Salisbury]

http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/redflag.jpg

OK Folks --- we are straying off the original subject of the thread and into general product safety issues which can be better discussed in a seperate thread in the Off Topic Forum.


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

[Mickey Elam]

Dev,

I have to take issue with your statement:

"5). Years ago, an instructor told us that the odds of using your ejection seat is 1 in 8. For every 8 pilots who fly planes with ejection seats, one of you will have the golden opportunity to test it out for real! I always felt that was a bit high but it made me realize that operating some machines just has a certain level of danger that cannot be changed or legislated away."

That's not an argument for not including safety devices. Leaving out the fact that your instructor was claiming that 12.5% (1 of 8 is 12.5% the total - an unbelievable number) of the planes he was familiar with were crashing due to the pilot having ejected, the simple fact of the matter is that the ejection seat was there for when the plane or pilot failed to perform as expected. All procedures and operating parameters could have been followed and there could still have been a failure - thus the need to an ejection seat on all of the planes.

The SawStop is similar to this in that, no matter how well procedures and operating parameters are followed, accidents can and will happen. You went on in your post to say:

"That is a preventative measure. Saw stops are not preventative. They dont bar you from sticking your fingers where they dont belong. Rather, they freely allow you to stick your finger right into the blade and then violently explode and cause the entire blade to just disappear. Now you have lost a blade, a cawl and your set up. And if you dont have the spare parts on hand, you have also terminated your work progress until you can order up some replacement parts such as blades and cawls. For me, I use 12, 14 and 16 inch blades with 1.25 inch arbor holes. That is a 7 to 14 day lead time special order from the east coast. Congrats! I have just lost 1 to 2 manweeks of labor if I dont have spare blades to cover me on this."

If you stick your finger into the blade as you say you can, and might, do above, the SawStop will probably destroy your blade, setup, and maybe your machine. All of these items are replaceable. What the SawStop will not do is allow the machine that you have either foolishly or accidently placed your fingers into to remove one or more of those fingers. Need I remind you that fingers, at least with current technology, ARE NOT replaceable!!!

Like you, I'm not especially fond of the regulatory approach taken by the company to get their system implemented into other manufacturer's products, but given the complete lack of proactive safety progress made by those other manufacturers, they may need to be forced into the 21st century. The regulatory bodies need to take steps to shield these manufacturers from liability if they decide to implement a system like the SawStop so that they cannot be sued by someone claiming that the implementation of an improved system demonstrates a design defect in the current machines.

Just some thoughts on this thread.

Mickey in Houston

[Dave Wright #2]

The regulatory bodies need to take steps to shield these manufacturers from liability if they decide to implement a system like the SawStop so that they cannot be sued by someone claiming that the implementation of an improved system demonstrates a design defect in the current machines.


Mickey,

That's an interesting point. Now that you mention it, a number of elements might need to be in place before blade brakes could be required. First, I believe that the CPSC standards are not supposed to create a monopoly. SawStop's patents would have to expire, or effective and competing technology been developed, before CPSC would adopt a blade brake standard.

The playing field would have to include rules by which blade brakes could be judged (and litigated). UL would probably have to get involved, or maybe ASTM, and I bet the resulting standards would be extremely long and technical. Brake test procedures would be set. Conditions under which the brake should work will be explored. I don't know how you would do an accelerated aging test. There would be standards for minimum brake activation speed, number of activations that would be tolerated by non-replaceable nearby components, and methods by which the device could be bypassed or defeated.

A big issue will be the performance requirements for these systems. I can think of a number of ways that the brakes could work, but none that match the SawStop system for activation speed and lack of damage to the saw. I can imagine a standard where brake performance is measured by a government agency and printed on a label, sort of how utility costs are stuck on refrigerators. Let's see...do I want to spend $75 more for this 0.005 saw or save money with this 0.013 unit? How about this saw that stops in 0.003 seconds but takes 10 minutes to put back into service versus this 0.025 second saw that doesn't damage my blade and can start cutting again after I press the reset button? Hmmmm.

Take Care,

Dave

[Dino Makropoulos]

I think the OSHA and the labor dept. should step in.
Buy the Saw stop patent and hire Steve as a consultant. ;)
and make it mandatory to all manufactures at very low cost. :)
Then, we're all happy and the new woodworkers (our kids)
can enjoy safer woodworking. :cool:
Just an idea.

[Greg Mann]

The state of things as they are now is probably a good place for this to be. Sawstop users will establish known state of the art, anecdotal information will evolve, perhaps to be followed by statistical data. With no early mandating to rush things, unintended consequences, if there are any, will have a chance to surface. The technology will mature and get better or determined to be ineffective. If it is effective and then mandated it will be with a higher level of consumer acceptance and appreciation. Time will tell.

Greg

[jack duren]

DEV Emch....

" Have you guys ever seen what a true kick back is like when a 7.5 Horse Power, 3600 RPM Louis Allis motor spinning a 16 inch, 30 tooth deep gullet blade throws something back at you? Its like a cannon. Get hit in the belly with this one and you will regret it. Chunks of wood can be left impaled into the wall."

no... but i can tell you what it feels like to have a 3/4 10" dado throw my hand at high RPM's on a 12" rockwell/delta tablesaw around the oposite direction before you can blink.

[Dave Wright #2]

Jack, ouch! There are plenty of opinions regarding SawStop from people who have not been cut. What is your opinion? If the device proves reliable and reasonably economical, and assuming that SawStop will not be unduly enriched, do you think it should be mandatory? Dave

[Ken Waag]

**New and Improved Posting Method** (for those who find me verbose, wordy and boring, as I myself do) For Cliff's Notes version just read the stuff in this attractive blue color!

I stated in an earlier post that I wonder why some people are so vehemantly against Sawstop. It appears that many are upset about Mr. Gass's petition to the Consumer Product Safety Commision. I can understand that, as none of us likes to have something forced upon us. However, I do think that some of the resentment over this issue is misplaced, not fully informed, and needs to be viewed in context. To that end, a few points in attempt to clarify, add some information, and some context.

First, let me make it absolutely clear that I do not know Mr. Gass, and have no financial interest in his product. I have followed the development of this product and it's story out of a simple personal interest. I have read a variety of threads invloving the Sawstop and find that a good number of the opinions (both pro and con) are emotional and not consistent with the information that is available. I have read whatever I could find and just aim to share it. Whatever you stand on this issue I think there is a responsibilty to be informed particularily if your post statements.





Second let me thank those of you who've had the stamina to read my posts. The reactions have been tallied as follows:
Disagree: 4%


In Agreement: 4%
A Useful Sleep Aid: 92%


I will try to be brief, but I doubt my success as much as you do. For 8% of you here are my points, to the other 92%, goodnight.



1) The petition may indeed be self serving. That does not make it wrong. And it certainly has no impact on the operation of the device in question.
Those who are maddened by the petition tend to argue that the technology does not work. It is an understandable but not a logical reaction. Please keep the two issues separate. Argue against the petition as is your right. Do not let your feelings regarding the petition turn into conclusions and statements that the technology does not work. In that arena, fact and experience reign. If I may be allowed to use myself as an example, I am not crazy about the petition, did not sign it (well I wasn't asked, but I wouldn't have) and would vote against it ( don't think they're going to ask me either though). And YET I am in favor of the device, have read the data (which meets scientific standards, and my own scrutiny). And I will be buying a Sawstop saw. Seperate issues!

2) Some Context: The current saftey guards that come standard are mandated. IMHO, they are a joke at best, a hazard at worst. Most of them are not left on the saws. The Mfgrs fought this mandate too. So if you're against mandates on your tools, there are a bunch of them. So keep it in context, the Sawstop mandate is one among many (more than you know about unless your a Mfgr or with CPSC) And in my **opinion** (no proven facts here) the Sawstop may be the most efficacious of the lot.

3) Some More Context: It 'ain't' just tools my friends. Mandates abound, and I suspect a large number are just good comedy. In Fairness, there are some stellar examples from seatbelts and airbags to safety glasses. Untold savings in that group, in $$$, lives and human suffering.

4) Let's even assume that the petition is wholly self serving on the part of Mr. Gass and Co. Still, the CSPC reports that TS accidents account for over 30,000 ER visits per year. 95% are finger/hand related, with 3000 being complete amputations. They estimate the economic costs of these injuries to be $2 Billion yearly. The entire yearly table saw market is estimated at $200 million. I wonder how many products cost 10X in injuries than what they cost in sales? Whether you are for or against the Sawstop itself, you'd likely agree that we're in sad state of affairs regarding safety. This is again opinion, (though I have heard several with significant expertise say the same) The Sawstop may be the first device to come along with a possiblity of putting a large dent in these figures.




Side Note/Soapbox: to that ever present argument that we don't need this, just use safe practices. Did those people want those injuries? That's why we call them accidents. Were they using safe practices? Probably some were, some weren't. Does it matter? Either way the injury occurs and the expense ensues and a life is sometimes changed. A momentary lapse, and it could happen to any of us. Yet the prevailing thought is it won't happen to me. I bet that's what those 30,000 folks thought, even the 3,000 who had to look for a piece of their body. I use my TS under the assumption that I will probably lose a finger. I'm scared, conscienteous and meticulously safe. I'm two minutes from a level I trauma center, and I know how to maximize the odds on a severed body part (no, I'm not paranoid. I was a hospital based dentist, did ER rotations in training, and 15 yr. of trauma call) I probably need a Sawstop device less than most, yet I want it more. And I think there is some correlation there. Some of the folk who need it least want it most. Sadly, some of those who need it most want it least. It's ironic, the "it can't happen to me's" aren't going to be interested, while the "it could happen to me or anybody else's" are. (A nod to those in the middle. I know you're smart and safe. Keep it up, and you will in all likelihood leave with the same fingers you came with)




4) A little defense? Total speculation here so all discalimers are in effect. As best I know from following this from early on, Steve Gass had no interest in making any petition let alone a line of tablesaws. He went to great lengths to offer this to everybody (Yes, with a Royalty attached, though the qoutes I've seen from Mfgrs talked about remachinig costs etc. I didn't see anything re: the royalty. I don't know if it would've been significant enough to be a factor in the decision.) His intention was to license it out, but there were no takers. . So the petition followed these repeated attempts and finding that "safety doesn't sell" ( Mr. Gass Quoting a Delta representative)



5) No Monopoly- someone alluded to it already, a petition cannot mandate patented device or create a monopoly. The petition is for a set of safety parameters. Should the petition even pass, anyone is free to create a way to meet whatever parameters are set. They cannot, of course, infringe on Mr. Gass' or anyone else's patent. Now we're not dumb. Clearly the petition is based on his device and he does stand to gain (also stated in the petition) Remember, I am against this petition and mandates of its kind, so my points are not in support of the petition, just information and perspective on the matter that I find lacking in some discussions.

6) Don't take it personally. Total speculation bordering on drivel now, so pardon me if you will. Look I don't support the petition idea, I don't know Mr Gass, nor presume to know his motives. But if allowed to speculate, I don't think he has the desire to force this down your throat or mine. He may be looking to serve a little crow, he may be pressurring the Big Guys to either reconsider once (and if) he shows the viability of his technology, or to make them look seriously as buying him out as a threat. Better give him some benefit of the doubt here, he might even think this thing will be truly beneficial and feel obligated to force the issue despite a total lack of support from the industry. And there will be a dose a self serving. but will it be deserving self serving?

For those needing an extra-strength sleep aid (seriously it's worth a browse) you can read the petition here: http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA03/petition/Bladesawpt1.pdf
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA03/petition/Bladesawpt2.pdf

They're not as long as you might think. The last several pages are just the requisite petition signatures (I guess you can read those if you Really need help sleeping) Part two is informative in that it shows that this is no light undertaking. Some people talk as if this thing is made of spare bicycle parts and tested archaically. Very good science has been used. And for the unfamiliar it is of ineterest that Steve Gass is a Woodworker by hobby, who happens to have a PhD in Physics, and is a patent attorney. Kind of a "Perfect Storm" for this project. So it's not as some my think, some guy making something by tinkering with junk in the garage and no idea what he's doing...hey! wait a second.. that'd be me! Gooooood Night All, Ken

[Ken Waag]

"The state of things as they are now is probably a good place for this to be. Sawstop users will establish known state of the art, anecdotal information will evolve, perhaps to be followed by statistical data. With no early mandating to rush things, unintended consequences, if there are any, will have a chance to surface. The technology will mature and get better or determined to be ineffective. If it is effective and then mandated it will be with a higher level of consumer acceptance and appreciation. Time will tell."

Greg,
That is well thought out, exactly right, and I hope all it goes just as you described. As it should. Oh, and very concise! I think (and many here would agree) I'd have been three pages saying that half as well.

Jack,

I second the Ouch! And I have to echo Dave's questions. Even more, madatory or not, would you be in favor of and/or recommend the Sawstop given your experience? My brother lost the use of his index finger to a RAS, and he can't imagine not getting a Sawstop, and insists I do the same (would've anyway). Sawstop aside, your picture is a reminder to us all that things can happen in the blink of an eye. You are gracious to post it. Thank you, Ken

[Ken Fitzgerald]

After he filed his petition....I won't buy his product.

[Rich Konopka]

After he filed his petition....I won't buy his product.

Q. What didn't Steve Gass do that other major corporations do when they want legislation passed in their favor?

A. Hire a Lobbyist firm.

I do not appreciate his tactics of using a petition to force regulation. However, I cannot dismiss SawStop technology because he did what any other company does. The Auto industry is famous for these tactics.

[Ken Waag]

After he filed his petition....I won't buy his product.

Hi Ken,
Curiosity overwhelms me so I have to toss you these questions:
Were you planning to buy the product before the petition?
Would you take the saw if they gave it to you for free? or if I bought it for you?
Have you refused to buy other products based on similar petitions?

I honor you position, but would like to understand it better. Special thanks if you can take the time to help me by answering these questions,
Ken

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rich......I don't know that the Automakers tried to outlaw horses when they invented the automobile.......maybe they did but........

Just because someone else has done something doesnt' make it right!

I work with high voltage electronics daily....I work with cryogenic liquids regularly...LHe.......I work with electrical mechanical devices that would cut you arm or hand off without even slowing down....1000 lb.+ gantrys that continuously rotate 360 degrees in a fraction of a second. I've been working with this kind of dangerous conditions for over 30 years....I live safety....If it's not safe..it's not done......I applaud Gass's invention but despise his tactic to gain a temporary monopoly.

While the pictures of the Sawstop products I've seen look to be of an extremely high quality, I will not own one. As a hobbiest it's hard for me to justify the extreme expense to get one of these saws.

In the near future other manufacturers will develop competitive and similar products and prices will come down. When the market becomes competitive, I will buy one but it will NOT be SAWSTOP. Buying from companies that use these type of tactics just encourages them or others to use the tactic again.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken.....yes, in fact, I would have bought one of their products if ...if it was affordable prior to their filing their petition.

Would I use one of their products now even if it was free .....NO.

While I applaud the idea of a safer saw the action of trying to mandate that all manufacturers had to develop and sell such a device on their saws got my dander up. Suppose any other market used the same tactics. This in my opinion is extremism.....just another marketing tactic to gain a momentary monopoly. I suppose it's just as extreme as my stance that I won't own one manufactured by this company.

I make a living well above the national average but I've been poor....I mean dirt poor....wore my father's shoes to high school because we couldn't afford to buy me a pair. The high price of the Sawstop products if mandated into regulation would place the cost of woodworking out of the reach of a lot of people. While it is indeed a safer saw, a user can take a lot of measures to protect themselves and/or reduce the chances of serious injury. These measures don't have an extremely high price attached either.

[Per Swenson]

I haven't worked out of the local for years,
but I still talk to the them alot.
they are considering writing sawstop in the contract.
Thats right, if they do,unless it has sawstop technology
the union won't let you operate a table saw on the job.
And every union carpenter around here says, God bless him.
Per

[Keith Christopher]

As far as petitioning goes. Well does his petition say it has to be bought from him or his company ? Nope. I would expect each vendor will have to either retrofit his in theirs or come up with one on their own. it's like air bags in a car, the real effects will not be realized until years down the road. I remember when everyone I talked to about them (when they first came out) hated the idea being forced upon them. well many years later and many lives saved the payoff is seen. I have a close personal friend who was so against the airbag with comments like many others until hers deployed and saved her life. If this gentleman invented a product and it saves people from personal injury, and he makes 100gazillion dollars from it, I don't care. Good for him. Should I be mad at his success -No WAY!- I wish success on everyone. Would I buy a saw stop cabinet saw ? Well I'll answer that this fall when I'm looking to upgrade my hybrid saw. I just hope there is more to choose from with a brake by then. will my decision be based upon it having a brake. Nope.

I would LOVE to see the folks at Sawstop pop in and make some comments. :)

[Greg Mann]

The original petition to mandate the device would not have made sense unless Steve Gass had not shown that it could be done, that the technology was viable. This type of scenario plays itself out in governmental agencies everyday, some we like, some we don't, and most we of which we are hardly aware. Decisions are made that enrich some and empoverish others.
I doubt anyone here is so naive to think that at least a few of these Washington operatives don't pursue their agenda knowing full well their goals run counter to the interests and safety of most Americans. If nothing else can be said, at least Mr. Gass' invention is designed to make something safer, putting it in the category of a well intentioned initative. His obvious passion for our safety should be enough by itself to temper our cynicism. If his goal was to just make alot of money, he could have found easier ways than developing this device.

Our lives are rife with mandated safety devices, some of which were received contentiously, and that we now take for granted. Electrical circuitry alone has countless safety features. Many of these things are not well received initially and only after time become appreciated. If we are then honest with ourselves we should be willing to admit that they were good ideas that we would not have accepted without mandate.

[Dev Emch]

I am truely and sincerely sorry that I brought this issue up and chimed in here. This was to be a comparision of ideas and not an inquisition of those with differing view points resulting in a civics lesson. As you know, I have always believed and more so than ever believe that Mr. Gass can simply jump in the lake. This forum is about bring together woodworkers and not dividing them. For a little while, I was hoping that this issue would simply chill out and take the back burner and allow us to focus on more agreeable subjects that can bring us together. Instead, like a festering wound, it just keeps going and going and going. We are now up to page FIVE on the responses. If crying uncle and agreeing with you all will allow us to focus on more interesting topics, than I cry uncle. But lets just put this issue to rest because 1). we have hammerd a dead horse into the ground and 2). there is nothing more that we all can do about it. At least me. If some of you wish to continue, then take it up with President Bush. But please, enough is enough!

[Mark Singer]

As I predicted ....this is quite a subject! We have not even discussed how many hot dogs lost lives during the testing.....this is really sad...I think the Sausage Association should rise up...this kind of treatment is not Kosher regardless of the origin of the species...:(

[Keith Christopher]

As I predicted ....this is quite a subject! We have not even discussed how many hot dogs lost lives during the testing.....this is really sad...I think the Sausage Association should rise up...this kind of treatment is not Kosher regardless of the origin of the species...:(


Maybe they were pork franks. :eek: Or perhaps they were raised for experimentation, in a lab somewhere, fed lots of whole grains and what not.

We should stop the testing on frankfurters !

I installed the bandsaw version of the sawstop on my meat cutting band saw and it must be defective as it keeps triggering. Getting kind of costly and I still have some pork butts to cut up. :mad:


Keith

[Rich Konopka]

As I predicted ....this is quite a subject! We have not even discussed how many hot dogs lost lives during the testing.....this is really sad...I think the Sausage Association should rise up...this kind of treatment is not Kosher regardless of the origin of the species...:(


PETS - People for Ethical Treatment of Sausages :D:p

[Keith Christopher]

I am truely and sincerely sorry that I brought this issue up and chimed in here. This was to be a comparision of ideas and not an inquisition of those with differing view points resulting in a civics lesson. As you know, I have always believed and more so than ever believe that Mr. Gass can simply jump in the lake. This forum is about bring together woodworkers and not dividing them. For a little while, I was hoping that this issue would simply chill out and take the back burner and allow us to focus on more agreeable subjects that can bring us together. Instead, like a festering wound, it just keeps going and going and going. We are now up to page FIVE on the responses. If crying uncle and agreeing with you all will allow us to focus on more interesting topics, than I cry uncle. But lets just put this issue to rest because 1). we have hammerd a dead horse into the ground and 2). there is nothing more that we all can do about it. At least me. If some of you wish to continue, then take it up with President Bush. But please, enough is enough!


Dev,

Open discussion is good, people are different and will think differently. We're not swearing or gouging anyone here. it's all good. :)

[Dev Emch]

That is a good point! I didnt think about all the bad treatment of winnies as I simply like to eat them esp. when piled high with kraut and chile. Ummm. Or how about those german winnies. A grilled brat with a french roll where a hole was poked and the brat was hanging out of both ends. That is german fast food. I murdered a massive number of those from roadside stands!

I saw on the "Power Tool Nationals" where they actually took a portable bandsaw and used it to make a power tool dragster. This is where they drag race belt sanders and what not. This bandsaw was nothing like I have ever seen. It had a 3 HP, 3 phase induction motor on it and was all stainless. It cuts cow bodies in half and so its called "The Heffer Halver". You could almost not pick it up. So how many folks have been injured by Heffer halvers cutting the wrong meat by products? A portable 3 HP, 3 phase bandsaw. If that is not dangerous, I dont know what is.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dev.....at least at my end, there were no ill feelings and I didn't even get heated up. I only stated my opinion. Saved the heat for those poor frankfurters! :D

[Greg Mann]

Dev,

Open discussion is good, people are different and will think differently. We're not swearing or gouging anyone here. it's all good. :)

Exactly right, Keith. What good would a forum be if there were not some differences of opinion. Threads would have two posts, the question and the answer. Boooring.

Ken Fitzgerald has expressed his resentment of the petition process. While I don't exactly agree, I understand the feeling, and am more than willing to listen to his point of view to see if it makes sense to me, and, in light of his arguments, whether my own opinions still hold water. By definition, we all believe our opinions to be right or we would change them until we do. I think it is a sign of strength to be open minded and willing to measure your opinions against others.

This group moderates itself better than most, and when more heat than light is generated, our moderators are willing to step in and hold up the red card (love that illustration, BTW).

Greg

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I stated in an earlier post that I wonder why some people are so vehemantly against Sawstop. It appears that many are upset about Mr. Gass's petition to the Consumer Product Safety Commision. I can understand that, as none of us likes to have something forced upon us. However, I do think that some of the resentment over this issue is misplaced, not fully informed, and needs to be viewed in context. To that end, a few points in attempt to clarify, add some information, and some context.

Ken, this whole Sawstop discussion just drives me crazy and you aren't the first person to tout the Sawstop with a religious zeal. It does appear that you think that everyone who disagrees with you is just misinformed and that once you present the facts to them they will see the error of their ways and change their mind. That's just not going to happen.

Do I think its a good tool? well maybe, I haven't seen it in person so I can't say. Do I think its a quantum leap in safety? It looks like it and it'll probably save a finger or two. Will I buy one? No way. I was turned off their their heavy handed attempt to regulate their product into the market. Buy one if you like, but leave the rest of us who don't want anything to do with it alone.

[Rob Blaustein]

Ken, this whole Sawstop discussion just drives me crazy...Buy one if you like, but leave the rest of us who don't want anything to do with it alone.

With all due respect Dennis, that's not really fair. If people want to tout things with religious zeal, that's their prerogative. That's the beauty of this site--if you tire of someone's view you don't have to keep reading their posts. That's your prerogative.

I was put off by the whole petition thing too, but that certainly wouldn't stop me from buying the saw if I was in the market for one, could afford it, and felt that it provided features that I valued that could not be found in any other saw. But if you and others feel that that's a reason to boycott it, that's obviously your choice.

[jack duren]

sawstop has been disected so manmy times the conversation is a repeat of a repeat.

as far as hobby or amatuer usage of sawstop...

i could care less if one uses its technology. your money,your hobby and bottom line your "dime".

petition....

if a petition makes you angry and you wont buy a product even though it improves yours safety, well...yer own your own there.

professionally speaking...

i think it should be a law and should have a time frame for professional shops to take hold of its technology. give shops a chance to update there shops and breaks on insurance. those who reject the technology should pay higher premiums. i think 5yrs is plenty of time for this ;) .

union shops... they can kizz my......jack

[Dev Emch]

I agree with Dennis...

Also, a very important point was not brought up. These days, I am so busy building "Stickley Kitchens" that I have not had that much chance to work on my hobby. Building and restoring machine tools!

In talking with Jeff Mahachek of northfield, an important issue came up. Accuracy. I still believe that one of the most accurate table saws ever built is the oliver 88. Why? Well, if you have ever seen one, you would know that the entire front face is about 1 1/2 inches of thick steel plate! All of the way systems and guts are hung off this plate. There is nothing delicate about it. And when you see how they machined those curved ways, then you begin to see why the American Machine Tool industry was king in the hey day of US machine tools.

In the early days, it was not possible to actually tilt the saw arbor which all you unisaw types take for granted. Instead, you had saws like the early oliver 60 and 90 or the tannewitz in which the whole table tilts and the arbor remains constant. This was not the best design but until a better way to power the arbor and a way to raise and lower the arbor came along, this is how it was done. It was awkward and difficult to use these and even harder to attach and use jigs. The advent of smaller electrical motors and precision gears and what not changed all this and the table became fixed and the arbor now tilts.

But the accuracy of a saw depends on many factors. There are tons of items that affect it. First, you have the immediate run-out of the actual spindle. How accurate are those spindle bearings? Then, you have the spindle axis relative to say your mitre slots or fence setups. If the axis of the saw spindle is canted, you have issues. Then this assembly is held in space by a vertical way system that allows you to raise and lower it. More opportunity for error. Lastly, this entire system has to mounted on a curvalinear way system to allow you to tilt the axis of your blade. Most of you will know this as the trunnions. At any rate, the rididity and ability to prevent motion in all but one direction is critical. If I have slop in any of these subsystems, I have the potential for error. In an attempt to really lock down this unwanted motion, oliver used this super heavy mounting plate. Northfield has a very similar system but their mounting plate fits ontop of the body just below the main top.

We should be grateful that with all this in and out, up and down, and canting over to 45 degrees, that we can still cut anything with a degree of repeatable accuracy. And now we need to add one more major degree of freedom to this mess. As I understand it, the saw stop system drops the entire arbor assembly downwards while also pushing the cawl into the blade. This is how the blade disappears. Am I right here? And how fast does this all happen? That is a fast traverse of a linear type of way. Can it be done with a satisfactory degree of accuracy.. (i.e. No noticiable reduction in accuracy along any of the currently used degrees of freedom)? Well, yes. By using a set of recirculating ball, linear ways such as those made by THK, this can be done with ease. But these ways with the needed accuracy to make me happy cost about $500 to $600 dollars. Anything else **WILL** introduce more error into this already complex picture not to mention complicate the current state of the art.

Being of the KISS mentality, I once again find this a difficult pill to swallow. I would rather have a simpler design with more accuracy.

[Ken Waag]

Ken, this whole Sawstop discussion just drives me crazy and you aren't the first person to tout the Sawstop with a religious zeal. It does appear that you think that everyone who disagrees with you is just misinformed and that once you present the facts to them they will see the error of their ways and change their mind. That's just not going to happen.

Do I think its a good tool? well maybe, I haven't seen it in person so I can't say. Do I think its a quantum leap in safety? It looks like it and it'll probably save a finger or two. Will I buy one? No way. I was turned off their their heavy handed attempt to regulate their product into the market. Buy one if you like, but leave the rest of us who don't want anything to do with it alone.

Dennis,

No religious zeal intended. I don't think I even have that. I do not think that everyone is misinformed, nor am I'm looking to change minds ( I've stated several times in my posts that it is up to the individual as to whether they have any interest in this product or not, that is clearly none of my business. I am curious on occasion as to a person's reasoning one way or the other so as to understand different viewpoints). I do see unfounded statements made and those could influence people's choices, which is just not fair or right. So I'm not "touting" Sawstop, but I am "touting" an attempt to base statements in fact so that everyone's decision can be a well informed one, whatever the direction.

As to "Buy one if you like, but leave the rest of us who don't want anything to do with it alone." I'll remind you that you addressed a post to me, and I did not ask, let alone tell you to read my posts. Please respect my rights as I have respected yours.

Sincerely,
Ken

[Mike Cutler]

Wow! What a thread this turned out to be.
When I first saw the post a day or two back at 0430, I knew it would be a good one.
I don't really lean one way or the other on the issue. From what I've seen the Sawstop appears to be pretty well made, brake system aside. I don't put it in the same category as some of the saws in Dev's posts, but I don't put the PM 66 or the Delta Unisaw in the same category as those saws either.
I sometimes actually wonder just how long the tablesaw, in it's current configuration will be around. I had the opportunity to play around with a high pressure cutter that used silica as the abrasive cutting medium. It was being used to cut 1" thick plate steel. I grabbed a wooden pallet and cut it up with the machine just for kicks, and to see if it could cut wood, it did, and it did it very well. total width of the "kerf" , .010.
We're using high pressure water and slurry mixtures to cut plate steel instead of plasma arcs and torches now. We can drill plate steel with high pressure sand and water and control the depth with ultrasonics, and how about laser technology. It hasn't been all that long since lasers were made that were within the reach of a small shop or an individual? where will this eventually lead wood working. I'm sure Keith could offer some insight on this subject.
I'm not waiting for the technology to improve the safety of the tablesaw, I'm waiting for the technology that replaces it, and gets rid of the spinning blade altogether, and I don't believe it is that far off.
The technology in the metal/ machining field is way ahead of anything in the woodworking field. Alot of these technologies work just fine when applied to wood.
Like Ken, I have one of those jobs where I get exposed to all sorts of new technologies, and I am sometimes allowed to experiment a bit with them and go outside of the box, so to speak. When I think about how some of them could be applied to woodworking it really boggles the mind.
If you ever want to replace your drillpress, mortiser, dovetail system, Dado blade and most of what your router can do, have a machinist buddy show you how a Bridgeport works. A little more spindle speed, and you'd be set. ;) You'll also learn what an R8 collet is., and alot of stuff about tapered spindles, and Jacob's chucks, that still doesn't make any sense to me. But heck... it's cool.
I guess I'm a forward thinking kinda guy. Maybe way off base, with respect to the subject at hand.
Thanks for a great thread everyone, it's been great to read. And I didn't need the Cliff notes either.
: :eek:

[Steve Gass]

Wow! I have sort of a love-hate relationship with these long threads on SawStop. It is fun to read, but I don't get much done while doing it. Actually, this has been one of the more civil threads on SawStop so I think you are all to be commended for your general civility to each other. Anyway, I thank Ken for pointing it out to me and mentioning that some folks would like to hear from SawStop. Well, wish granted for better or worse. :)

As for the saw itself, I think pretty much everyone who has seen/used one has been happy and uniformly people seem to believe it is a significant step up relative to a Unisaw/PM 66. The saw is designed to withstand the braking loads without damage and includes a pivot joint, similar to the normal joint used to raise and lower tablesaw blades, to permit the retraction without damaging anything. The front of the arbor block (the end opposite the pivot joint) is secured with a strong spring detent type release to allow the retraction to occur. During normal use, the blade/trunnion assembly travels vertically on a pair of steel guide shafts, so the retraction is completely independent of the normal elevation control.

I know many folks have been sort of bent out of shape about the petition we filed. We would not have filed the petition if we did not believe it was the right thing to do. I talk pretty much every day with some woodworker who thought they were being safe and had an accident - often with life-changing consequences.

This doesn't have to happen (or at least only very, very rarely) anymore and, in my opinion, the only reason it continues is that the existing power tool manufacturers are not paying for the injuries that occur on their products and therefore have very little incentive to redesign and retool their products to incorporate something like SawStop. Delta, for instance, told me that they weren't interested in the technology prior to any discussion of a royalty and only the most superficial discussion of what it might cost to implement. If saw manufacturers had to pay the cost of the accidents that occur on their products, they would be charging 10 times as much and would very quickly adopt SawStop or something like it. At present, it is the unfortunate woodworker, and you and I (through insurance premiums) that have to bear this cost.

In view of what I see as the callous disregard of the saw manufacturers for the safety of their customers and their unwillingness to do something on their own to prevent injuries, I believe that the petition we filed was the right thing to do to force the manufacturers to change. I believe it is very clearly justified on the merits if you look at the benefits to society if it is granted.

As I'm sure some of you are thinking, we at SawStop also believe that we stand to gain financially if the petition were to be granted, but believe it or not, that wasn't the primary motivating factor. We have always believed that the petition didn't have much chance of actually being granted given our tiny political clout and the substantial political clout of the power tool industry. However, I believe it was simply the right thing to do to try and stem the flood of devastating injuries that occur every day to woodworkers around the country.

By the way, yesterday we received what is our third call from a customer who was very glad they had SawStop on their saw when someone accidentally made contact with the blade - in this case a female student in a college woodshop class. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to know that we have already prevented three potentially very serious injuries and that is just the beginning.

Steve Gass, President
SawStop, LLC

[Dennis McDonaugh]

By the way, yesterday we received what is our third call from a customer who was very glad they had SawStop on their saw when someone accidentally made contact with the blade - in this case a female student in a college woodshop class. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to know that we have already prevented three potentially very serious injuries and that is just the beginning.



Steve, how did she contact the blade? What operation was she trying to perform? Was she using all the safety equipment (riving knife/blade guard)?

Thanks,

[jack duren]

had a guy at the shop cut his pinky on the tablesaw last week. one got hurt 2 months ago. in the 6 yrs ive worked for this company i believe there has been 4 tablesaw accidents.

boss pays the accidents out of pocket to avoid workmans comp. shame..

im trying to figure the best way to approach him with the purchase of a sawstop. i guess ill take my laptop to work to show him the saw and the videos. a picture is worth a thousand words....jack

[Steve Gass]

Dennis,

Apparently she was rather embarrassed by the whole thing so it has been very hard to get the details. From what I have been able to learn from the instructor, she we was reaching to clear and off cut away from the blade when she came into contact. From that I would assume the guard was lifted or not in place. I guess the offcut could have been resting under the guard as well.

Steve

[Dale Thompson]

Dev,
I hope that I have read most of your posts on the Sawstop. I agree that it may save some fingers and even more. However, when you get "technical", the facts that you present have a large impact on your credibility. Make sure that they are accurate. A 10" blade at 3600 RPM does not even APPROACH the speed of sound! Unless, of course, you consider 314 ft/sec to APPROACH 1100 ft/sec. I understand that this is stupidly nit-picking but it is true. :)

Also, consider the cost of government mandating anything. :eek: Our next in the US will be tire inflation monitors on all new cars. They will cost the manufacturers about $70. What do you think that it will cost the consumer? $500 would probably be a low-ball guess. :rolleyes:

IMHO most of this "safety" stuff is actually counterproductive and written only for the profit of lawyers. When I buy a new power tool, I have good intentions to do everything right. However, after reading ten or twelve pages of "CAUTION", "SAFETY", "WARNING", etc., I generally am tired of reading and take a shot at working the machine as I THINK it should work.
:( I know that that is stupid but if I had been given the proper operating instructions FIRST, there is a far better chance that they would have been read instead of all the lawyerese. ;)

I have been woodworking for about forty years. The most serious accident that has ever happened has been a minor cut. I don't mind that - unless the blood gets on the wood. That can be SERIOUS! I heal - the wood doesn't! :eek:

To be honest, most of the guards on my machines have been removed over the years. They are generally a pain in the butt or restrict certain operations.

Admittedly, I may cut my head off tomorrow. Some folks would probably cheer that outcome. ;)

However, if you want forty years of experience, try blaming these (choose your own order of priority):
1. Thomas Edison; With no electricity, power tools would not be a problem. The hand tools, however, would still be a hazard.
2. Alcohol; When the Manhattan gets poured, the shop lights go OUT!
3. Inexperience; Know your equipment or LEAVE IT ALONE!
4. Over-extending your equipment; Get the right tool for the right job!
5. Over-extending your ability; We all do it but BE CAREFUL! BAM!!
6. Stay out of the line-of-fire; OUCH! Those "arrows" really hurt! A left-tilt saw helps but don't bet your ribs on it!
7. Fatigue; If you're tired, stay out of the shop. Excuses to your clients are a LOT less painful than stitches!
8. Showing off; HEY!! I'm GREAT!! My lathe was set at 2800 RPM for pen turning. To show off, I threw a 16" bowl blank on the spigot chuck of the PM 3520 without changing the speed! WHEEEEE!!
9. Dull blades, bits, chisels, etc.; That is too stupid to even mention. If you REALLY want to get hurt, try dull tools.
10. Underpowered equipment; This goes back to Item 4 above. If you want a REAL surprise, try freeing a board from a "stalled" blade, bit or whatever.
11. Common sense; If you don't have any, try a safer hobby! Just don't forget to wear safety shoes in case you drop a checker on your foot. ;)

Just my thoughts. If I'm right, it would be the first time! :)

Dale T.

[Ken Waag]

Steve,

Many thanks for your very prompt response to the invitation to join in on this thread. It is a great and civil group here, though I have taken a few light beatings; more for my dissertation like posts than any issue though.

And thanks for addressing the petition issue which, understandably, has been a central issue for many. You confirmed my suspicion that you filed the petition knowing that the chances of it being granted would be slim. I had to bite my tongue a number of times on that one, not wanting to guess at somone's intentions.

Congratulations on the three saves. That is an impressive start. You must feel a great deal of pride taking this from conception to reality and hearing that it has served it's purpose as you'd imagined a long time ago.

Best,
Ken

[Keith Outten]

Sometimes, when we debate subjects we are passionate about it is prudent to agree to disagree and move on knowing that we have at least learned something from anothers point of view. Debate beyound any possibility of learning is simply an argument that can serve no purpose.

The issues discussed in this thread are thought provoking and also sensitive to many woodworkers. What surprises me is that every thread concerning the SawStop always ends the same way and there is rarely any progress made concerning the issues by either side of the debate.

There is a distinct possibility that each side has substantial merit and there is no ground to conquer at this time, maybe next year.

[Keith Christopher]

Steve,


I commend you for speaking up. So often in this day and age people in your position are afraid to speak their mind or discuss. It takes courage to step up on a public forum. But I tell you, this is the one, good open debate and although we're each passionate about our own opinions we respect the right for others to have differing opinions. Good luck on your product and company. Keith you're right, till next year. And I'd love to see the statstics next year from folks who have avoided major trama due to your product.


Keith

[Dev Emch]

Wow Nellie!!!!

Mr. Dale Thompson, Please Read This! First of all, there has been a ton of posts here. You have accidently confused someone else with me as I never said that the tip of a 10 inch blade can go supersonic. At sea level, that is between 600 and 700 MPH. I did say that the larger blades do spin faster and that some limited tests I have had data from suggest that on larger blades, the saw stop system can remove teeth. I did note that point however and in the course of this battle kinda put it in the back of my mind and never said anything about it.

In terms of the rest of your post, I have to agree with everything on it. I would add one more safety advisory. If the SWMBO throws a temper tandrum and gets you upset, that is not the time to be playing with machines. A point to remind the SWMBO about when you bring home a new toy.

I dont want to say this either but I have been formally trained to use these machines, rebuild these machines and design and invent these machines. My exposure goes way back and I hope that no one else is reading this: I also remove guards. Go look at my other post called "Belated Gloat" and tell me where the guards are/were. Have you ever eaten at a wendys or other establishment and picked the all you can eat salad bar? How do you like those safety guards... or sneeze shields. Nice to know that the guy before you has not gooberd up your salad choice, but boy is that inconvenient to pick things out from under. That is how many guards on machines feel to guys who have used these machines for a while. I like to to know and see where my knives are!!!!! Its the hidden knife that will get you. I hope that no one else here will pick up these habits because Dale did it or Dev did it. We have developed a certain comfort level and skill level and between Dale and myself, we have close to 100 years of combined experience and both of us are sporting 20 digits! What does that say.

As to your opinions about lawyers and safety and all that jazz.... have you ever considered the automobile? "O.K. Mr. Ford, let me get this straight. Your wish to remove the horse from the buggy, install one of these new fangled gasoline motors and put a tank under the seat full of this juice that has the explosive capability of 14 sticks of dynamite per gallon? Did I get you right here Mr. Ford?" Its a darn good thing that Ralph Nader was born when he was or we all would be parking our rides in the livery stable!

As mentioned before, my father started us woodworking when my brother and I were about 5 or 6 years old. He gave us both nice Stanley tool boxes with real stanley tools at this age for our birthday. My mom called him an idiot and asked whyh kids needed expensive real tools. My Dad had the answer! Because if these kids have their own tools, two thing will happen. 1). They will learn to take care of their own tools and 2). They will be less prone to raid my toolbox in the garage. Ultimately, I would like to keep some of my own tools in working condition. He shortly introduced us to electron burners and by age 10 or so, left us alone and to our own devices with these. Was this irresponsible behavior? Nope! He was very stern and taught us safety and technique from the beginning. In fact, I remember him lecturing us about reaching over running blades to clear out debris items!!! In the last year of middle school, we were required to take wood shop and we had the full complement of machines complete with a maple gym floor in the shop!!! Some of our first projects were of all things, chicken sticks or as they are now called, push sticks.

I have spent many enjoyable hours studying the history of woodworking and metal working machines. I butcher wood and make tools to pay the rent these days but to unwind, I tinker and study vintage iron. I am currently restoring a line shaft drive, 20 inch, babbitt bearing two knife planer from 1904 made by Fay & Egan which used to be owned by the Ohio Public school system. This is run from leather belts on counter shafts mounted on the roof. The bull gear is open as are the gears that run the main feed rollers. The cutter head and feed rollers are mounted in babbitt bearings. This thing is OSHA's blast from the past nightmare come back to life. Why? SImple! 'Cause its Fun!

A couple of years ago, there was a piece on the TV about how young professionals are buying DIY tools at the Home Depot and where ever and relearning their use. They reported on the dramatic level of ignorance of our youth and how many Gen-X guys didnt even know what a screwdriver was. The thought did pass through my mind that this was a ticket to disaster. That the ERs were going to be very busy. Why? Because you have 20 somethings buying compromised tools from sales guys who themselves barely know whats going on. The benchtop table saw is the most dangerous tool out there and they sell these by the wagon full to guys that have never turned on a table saw. You ever see the movie Gremlins Two? Its the same thing. You have a circular saw that snuck a good belt of "high quality cabinet saw genetic material" and morfed itself into the bench top table saw. Its these that are filling the ER rooms. Have you ever tried to rip a sheet of 4x8 ply on one of these? Esp. when the saw is moving around under the job. A 2800 pound oliver is not moving anywhere under the same job.

And Mr. Gass, I am sorry to hear of the misfortune of this lady in school and I hope that she recovers without incident. But look into it. First, you have already stated that she had the guard off. Second, my father would have had her, girl or no girl, behind the woodshed for doing that! Third, how high was this blade and what was she cutting? How many times do you see newbies cranking the saw blade all the way up or to lazy to lower it and cutting stuff like 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch stock? I just remembered another thing my dad told us... "Look! When this thing is going, you cannt see the teeth. You can see the blade, but the teeth are invisible so remember that and be careful".

One thing for Mr. Gass is this. Have you approached the professional machine builders such as Altendorf and Martin and Ortega? What did Martin say about your invention? I am currently debating and in discussion with them for a new T-73 saw so this is a topic of interest to me. Lastly, the shaper is the most important machine in my shop today. The shaper is also a lost artform as the modern power tool venders and magazines have placed the focus onto router tables and making router tables behave like shapers. But they are not. And I always show folks what an industrial shaper is capable of doing. The slang term for a shaper head is "meat cutter". If you have ever seen a 10 or 15 pound stacked, steel insert, 40 or 50 mm window or door cutter set, you will understand where this term comes from! Isnt it a bit hypocritical to ignore these machines while you focus only on the table saw? And what about the radial arm saw? Oh, that is becoming an obsolete dinosaur. Its being replaced by sliding head, chop saws. Well, how am I going to mount a 3/4 inch wide, 12 inch diameter dado blade onto a makita chop box? Or how am I going to size 8 inch by 12 inch by 20 or 30 foot douglass timber frame beams on this chop box? How do I cut massive 6 inch long tenons in these beams? My RAS has two flasks with it and one can hold a 20 inch blade! That aint no makita chop box I know of! So as long as we have these types of machines, our insurance is not going to come down in the presence of one or two saw stop saws in the same shop.

I commend you on your focus and attention to the issues you cited and to that end, my hat is off to you. But please understand that some of us are not that thrilled to have your invention esp. if we are forced to pay for it. It should be available on other saws stricly as an upgrade option and we should not be punished for not having it.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

.....and, in my opinion, the only reason it continues is that the existing power tool manufacturers are not paying for the injuries that occur on their products and therefore have very little incentive to redesign and retool their products to incorporate something like SawStop. Delta, for instance, told me that they weren't interested in the technology prior to any discussion of a royalty and only the most superficial discussion of what it might cost to implement. If saw manufacturers had to pay the cost of the accidents that occur on their products, they would be charging 10 times as much and would very quickly adopt SawStop or something like it. At present, it is the unfortunate woodworker, and you and I (through insurance premiums) that have to bear this cost.

Steve Gass, President
SawStop, LLC

I'm one of the guys that swore I'd never have a SawStop back when you filed the petition...but I've come to my senses and realized that being spiteful is one thing, being stoopid is quite another. If one is in the market for a cabinet saw in this price range, it's just plain dumb not to buy yours.

That said, your words above disturb me. Manufacturers SHOULDN'T have to pay for the injuries that occur on their machinery. That mentality, when applied to the entirety of our litigious society, is responsible for the ridiculous insurance premiums...not 1200 tablesaw accidents each year (or whatever it is). At some point, people are going to have to start taking responsibility for their own actions. It's a dangerous piece of equipment, and a dangerous hobby/profession. Accidents happen.

KC

[Dave Wright #2]

Keith, "Maybe next year" is right! These discussions have been going on since shortly after SawStop technology was mentioned in woodworking magazines. The nature of the discussion has evolved though. "It won't work" and "It will falsely trip frequently" have largely gone out of the discussion. Several hundred of the saws in the field have proven those fears unfounded. Now we wait and let statistics accumulate. After a couple years the costs and benefits of the technology should be clear.

Dev, you advocate proper training as a cure for table saw injuries. I'm sure that would prevent some of the injuries, but way short of preventing all of them. I suspect that SawStop would lower the numbers more than training.

On training: The female student who was saved by SawStop was in a woodworking school at the time. Odds are that she was (or had) received more training than most of us @ SMC.

On governement regulation: If training is the key then maybe the government should set up licensing for table saw operators. No one would be allowed to operate a table saw (or other power tool) until they had gone through a government run course and passed a rigorous test. I believe that requirement would be a greater infringement on personal freedom than a blade brake mandate. Imagine having to show your tool license to buy a circular saw, only to be turned down by the snotty cashier because your license did not have the "CS" endorsement required for circular saw purchases.

Best, Dave

[Earl Kelly]

I've really enjoyed reading this as well as several other posts about the Sawstop saw. Lot's of good arguments on both sides. When the Sawstop was first announced I was intrigued and interested how it could be done. Now that it is in the marketplace I feel it has a place in Teaching situations, where the users could be inexperienced using power equipment and tools.

The issues or problems i see are the saw, from photos I've seen, hang the complete saw blade mechanism off the front of the saw body on a vertical rod with bushing in the casting top and bottom. I understand why they did this, so the automatic blade drop mechanism can be independent of the blade raising and lowering mechanism. I believe these bushings will wear much faster than a pivot joint in the majority of table saws lifting mech.

Another issue, several manufactures were quoted that when approached by Mr. Gass and the Sawstop mech. he wanted 8% of the saw selling price as Royalty and would assume no Liability for missfires and or injuries.

The saw manufacturers have never claimed their saw would NOT cut your hand or finger. If they had I feel like they should be held liable. If Mr. Gass is successful in his attempt to get his petition passed, I don't believe any saw manufacturer will be able to come up with a saw blade stopping device, other than maybe a blade that disentegrates on skin contact!! Because of the simple fact Mr. Gass has quite a few Patents on almost every part of his desgn. It would be extremely hard if not impossible to design something to accomplish the same result, no or minor bodily injury, without encountering his patent protection.

Accidents happen every day, I don't care what you do, someone is going to mess up and get hurt. If the Sawstop gets enough marketshare someone will figure a way to cut a finger off, not on purpose mind you but because some people should not be allowed around power tools. You know the type person I'm talking about, everybody knows someone like that, an accident waiting to happen. My BIL for example, he boarded up his house for a hurricane, he did more damage than the Hurricane, had to have several windows replaced he broke.

I'm all for SawStop in a competitive market driven situation. Let those that want it buy it. For the rest of us, we don't need someone to tell us Not to use a hair dryer in the shower.

[Dave Wright #2]

Earl,

Glad to have you join in. The motor/arbor carriage slides up and down on three "rods" - a massive front smooth rod, a smaller smooth back rod, and the large acme threaded height adjustment screw. This movement is required by the riving knife, not the blade brake. You could engineer a blade brake for a conventionally pivoting carriage as well. The setup does indeed seem more likely to wear than a pivot, but it's pretty heavily built and appears to have been precisely manufactured. There are probably plenty of similar arrangements in other industrial machinery. Maybe Steve Gass can comment on the engineering and service life projections.

I believe that the reason SawStop would not accept liability for accidents on licensed saws is that they would not control the detailed implementation of the technology. That's standard practice. Airbag not go off when it should have? You sue the company that made the bag and car, you don't sue the inventor of the airbag. The technology is good, but the implementation was bad.

Per Swenson made a pretty good point about labor unions. Everyone's been focusing on government intervention, but the real action (if it ever happens) won't come from Uncle Sam. It will come from the labor unions and insurance companies. The government wouldn't mandate brakes unless they were already standard fare. That's pretty typical of our government. It follows instead of leading.

If unions and insurance come into play we could see a major turn of the wheel of fortune. Blade brake saws could become the standard for commercial and educational settings. Delta has been selling more saws to private woodworkers for a long time anyway. They might just give up the commercial market until Steve's patents expire. Interesting to see how far the major manufacturers have fallen. At one time it was all about innovation, quality, serviceability, and durability. In the last couple decades it has shifted to be about price and market share. A large hole has opened up at the top (commercial & industrial) end of the business. Companies with new ideas and a quality emphasis can step in, leaving the old guard to mix it up in the malls. Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley are doing that with hand tools. Festool is doing it with small power tools. Time for the trend to come to major power tools.

Best, Dave

[Dave Wright #2]

Oh yea - another point. If anyone goes sleazy in these affairs, it won't be SawStop. More likely it will be the insurance lobby. I could see their clout being used to speed up the adoption of a blade brake standard, most likely by UL, so that they could use the standard to deny payment for any injury on saws without brakes. Companies with non-brake saws would have to buy riders to extend their policies to cover old iron in the shops.

[Mark Singer]

Everytime I think this post has ended, I say to myself, "well that is it...they have said it all!..." no way , I check back in an hour and another series of brand new manuscripts lie before me....

Are we still talking about a machine that cuts wood? Just checking? :confused:

The one thing I got out of this discussion is if you wanted to saw several hot dogs in half, not that this is commonly done...maybe for a woodworkers BBQ or what have you..("what have yous " can be almost as much fun as this thread)....the SawStop would be an expensive choice and probably not the best one. If I leave with nothing else...I think I got my moneys worth!

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Wow Nellie!!!!

Mr. Dale Thompson, Please Read This! First of all, there has been a ton of posts here. You have accidently confused someone else with me as I never said that the tip of a 10 inch blade can go supersonic. At sea level, that is between 600 and 700 MPH. I did say that the larger blades do spin faster and that some limited tests I have had data from suggest that on larger blades, the saw stop system can remove teeth. I did note that point however and in the course of this battle kinda put it in the back of my mind and never said anything about it.

Dev, That was Ken Waag that said that in his first post in this thread.

[Mark Singer]

I think what would be really helpful is for you or someone to do a comprhensive summary of who said what in this post....kind of a recap of "whos on first"...it will clarify many things...the speed of light...whether light exsists at all....which is faster a speeding bullet , superman or a WWII...these are difficult subjects and a recap is in order....all that want a recap vote now!:)
Dev, That was Ken Waag that said that in his first post in this thread.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark.......here's my take on it.


Someone developed a new t/s saw that may prove to be safer. Time will tell.

Initial photos and reviews of the new saw indicate it is a good though, somewhat expensive product.

The developer of the saw petitioned the Consumer Product Safety Committee to force other manufacturers to use a similar safety device/blade brake.

There are a variety of opinions about whether or not the device or similar devices should be regulated or mandatory.

While w/w's can be an opinionated bunch, some of us can play nice! :D

P.S. the new saw appears to be hard on hotdogs? :eek: :D

[Mark Singer]

Thats it? Thats It?
Mark.......here's my take on it.


Someone developed a new t/s saw that may prove to be safer. Time will tell.

Initial photos and reviews of the new saw indicate it is a good though, somewhat expensive product.

The developer of the saw petitioned the Consumer Product Safety Committee to force other manufacturers to use a similar safety device/blade brake.

There are a variety of opinions about whether or not the device or similar devices should be regulated or mandatory.

While w/w's can be an opinionated bunch, some of us can play nice! :D

P.S. the new saw appears to be hard on hotdogs? :eek: :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I think what would be really helpful is for you or someone to do a comprhensive summary of who said what in this post....kind of a recap of "whos on first"...it will clarify many things...the speed of light...whether light exsists at all....which is faster a speeding bullet , superman or a WWII...these are difficult subjects and a recap is in order....all that want a recap vote now!:)


I'm sorry Mark........I didn't read close enough......I thought you wanted the "CONDENSED" version....... :o

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Thats it? Thats It?

Yeah, Mark I think that's what it boils down to. That and some people are more for or against it than others and some people are more entrenched in their opinion than others.

[Steven Wilson]

Well Ken, IMNHO the sawstop break is an expensive solution to a minor problem. Running your hand into the blade is a problem that can be better solved by;

1) using a sliding table
2) using a push stick, push block, or similiar device
3) using a crosscut sled, jig, or clamping work to your fence

The real safety issues with the table saw that are not addressed by the sawstops breaking mechanism are;

1) push back
2) kick back
3) binding
4) dust collection

A proper riving knife takes care of push back and kick back and a sliding table or pull back fence (aka unifence) can handle the binding. Proper dust collection includes running dc hose up to the blade from underneath and an overarm DC hood (Excalibur or the riving knife mounted blade cover.

Since having a sliding table and a riving knife takes care of most of the table saw safety problems why spend the money on a one shot safety device? I don't see the point in wasting the money for it.

[Jim Becker]

Steve, the SawStop cabinet saw has both the riving knife and the DC shroud for the blade. The only things missing from your list are the overarm guard (I agree it's a good idea) and the slider. The latter is very desirable for me, but not a typical feature of a North American saw design which this machine still emulates.

[Dave Wright #2]

Jim's right. The SawStop guys would be pretty shallow and shortsighted to build a saw that had the blade brake and no other safety features. They included quite a few other safety features.
-- Master lockable power disconnect for service and blade changing safety
-- Full guard with anti-kickback pawls and a spreader for through cuts; the guard is convenient and can be used for cuts as thin as 5/8".
-- Riving knife for non-through cuts
-- Effective integral dust collection
-- On/off paddle that is very easy to shut off with the operator's hip
-- Blade brake bypass switch can be disabled by removing the key
-- Saw will not start up if the blade is missing or in the process of being changed (my son inadvertently did this to me when he was 3 years old)
-- Both cabinet doors are interlocked to the electronics so the saw won't fire up unless they are closed.
-- Larger top increases safety in handling stock
-- Toespace allows better foot placement to improve operator balance

[Mark Singer]

Well I am back from the Gym....an hour has gone by and..........yes more posts!

Unbelievable! Now we are getting summarys...I guess I asked for it...its hard for me to type with my tounge in my cheek....

like I always said...." like a postage stamp stick with it until you get there"


I guess we are not there yet!:confused:

[Dev Emch]

Dave #2....

I like your description of an ideal table saw although you left out one significant item. That being the sliding or rolling table.

You didnt tell me you were reading the 1960s olivers brochure on the oliver table saws however. Again, those features and more are also found on my 1970s martin T-17.

Again, I feel that you saw stop guys have missed the bigger picture. There were over 300 companies making woodworking machines in the United States and Canada. Consolidation and business shut down wiped out virtually everyone until only the big three remained. These being general, powermatic and delta. General is now secondary as the general international marketing arm has surpassed general north america in sales. Powermatic is a Jet company now and who knows what evolution Delta is making. Delta's flagship product was the unisaw and Delta invented the cabinet unisaw back in the mid 30s. The unisaw was the "concept" to copy.

Personally, I hate mitre gages and esp. those found on table saws. Even crude add on devices like the dubby board far outpace the usefulness of mitre gages. In europe, they got rid of them long ago and any european machines with mitre slots are more for US consumption than anything else. But we see cross cut sleds, dubby boards, tenon jigs, taper jigs and now a new generation of mitre gages with new features and of course add on sliding tables to fill in these glaring holes in the unisaw concept.

If you think the unisaw is wanting, look at the state of US wood shapers! The engineers clearly fell asleep at the wheel about 1950 to 1960. As good as the oliver 287 was, it has always been lacking and from 1960 to the end of production in the late 80s, the 287 actually went backwards with thread on spindles. As the US woodworking machine engineers were retiring and finding other jobs, the european engineers were seriously hard at work. Engineering at martin and hofmann was like our old NASA appllo program and the state of the art was advanced. The itallians also came onboard and borrowed from the germans. Today, outfits like Felder, Martin, Hofmann, SCMI and Altendorf are among the safest and most advanced machines made. The german shapers have really advanced and there is no US or canadian made shaper that can hold a stick to the shapers offered by this set of companies. But they are out of the price range of most folks in the hobby and many folks in the hobby want more than a contractor or those pesky bench top table saws on which no one has made any comments. So the "unisaw" continues to live and drag on. And now saw stop has come up with their own "COMMERCIAL CABINET SAW" which is nothing more than another ME-TO version of this same beastie albeit one with this saw stop brake technology. If the name on the table saw reflects its main claim to fame, maybe next year the unisaw will, of course, be painted bright lemon yellow and carry the huge moniker "WOOD CUT" to relect the adage, "under new management".

For anyone in the market for a new table saw, I would ask you all to review your goals and desires and dont pursue the "unisaw solution" out of ignorant bliss. Last year, I looked at a mini max combo machine at the woodworking show and was impressed. The bearing and way technology has been getting better and better on these saws and the slider was a pleasure to use. Conventional format saws like the Laguna namesake saw is also loaded with a bunch of nice features and even includes the option for a scoring blade and massively heavier trunions which, in the case of the unsaw, are much to weak. The felders and hammers have been getting nicer and nicer as well. As the unisaw fades as a cultural icon, more and more folks will make the jump to european machines and as such, the euro makers will work on getting newer cost reduced versions onto the market to fill this gap. Its already been happening. The jet and dewalt hybrids are both very nice light weight saws. In fact, if I needed a job site table saw, I would buy one of these hybrids along with some swivel casters from woodcraft and use it as a portable job site finish saw. I really liked the sliding table on the jet hybrid.

So for folks buying saw stop cabinets today, take warning. As the novelty wears off and as the unisaw fades into the horizon and you frequent the next two to four rounds of the woodworking shows, you will become disconent and offer your beloved saw stop to the local clasifieds or to ebay. PM66, jet xtra and delta unisaw and general 350 owners, stop laughing for you too are in this boat. These designs are also in the autum of their product cycles. Some format, most likely similar to current felder designs, will become the standard with martin and altendorf remaining on the high end. Jet and others will advance their own designs based on these principles as well.

[Dave Wright #2]

Dev, I could see the rise of European style machines, particularly with the increasing use of sheet goods, but think there will be a need for North American style machines for a long time. I don't see a big slider fitting my small shop, my budget, or my (mostly solid stock) work. Interesting that you mention the Laguna. Same weight, to the pound, as the SS w/ 36" fence. North American style saws may go away, but that doesn't mean that SS will. Some time ago I asked Steve Gass about future accessories like sliding tables. He replied that they have been contemplating a slider to replace the left extension wing on the current cabinet saw, and also see the possibility of a dedicated right tilt true Euro slider similar to the saws you mention. It would, of course, be much more expensive and aimed at the industrial market. Dave

[Steven Wilson]

Steve, the SawStop cabinet saw has both the riving knife and the DC shroud for the blade. The only things missing from your list are the overarm guard (I agree it's a good idea) and the slider. The latter is very desirable for me, but not a typical feature of a North American saw design which this machine still emulates.
I know the SawStop has the riving knife and DC shroud. The riving knife (not the silly anit-kickback pawls) is the improvement, everything else is fluff; but it's the fluff that is kicking the price to $2500. A real sliding table saw like the MiniMax SC3W is about double that and far more usefull. Of course the real North American tablesaw made about 20 minutes from my office has a great sliding table that I would die for. But alas I don't quite have the coin (around $30K) for a Northfield #4 w/36"x52" slotted rollertop, 10 hp motor, 48" cast iron wing extension, and 4" dato capability; I guess I'll have to stick with my MiniMax combo ;)

[Ian Barley]

...and also see the possibility of a dedicated right tilt true Euro slider similar to the saws you mention. It would, of course, be much more expensive and aimed at the industrial market. Dave

If he gets a CE mark on it so that it is street legal in the UK and I will be one of the first in the queue.

[jack duren]

"Since having a sliding table and a riving knife takes care of most of the table saw safety problems why spend the money on a one shot safety device? I don't see the point in wasting the money for it."

"most" key word...until youve lost something alot of people are in the dark.most is "not" enough.

speaking in general......

why use a tablesaw or any dangerous piece of machinery if not a professional. guess its nice to have an option were others dont.....jack

[Greg Mann]

While I certainly think there are valid arguments made for the inherent safety enhancements of the Euro sliders, I can imagine how much more criticism Steve Gass would have received for introducing his saw in this category. True, he would have also been praised by some, maybe many, maybe even Dev if I understand him correctly in his last post. If the goal they were trying to acheive was to make saws that the biggest market will accept, then I think they did the right thing. Dev's point, made also by Paul Cresti about 20 posts into this thread, is that the Euros may well represent the future because they offer alot of nice features and are inherently safer. They do for a certain part of the market but I agree with Dave Wright that there are too many cost and size barriers to overcome to make it the standard table saw in American basements and garages for a long time to come, if ever. The great thing now is we have choices along the spectrum. The Sawstop right now is close enough to make significant inroads into the market and should be more competitive over time. If they are truly successful in penetrating the market I will bet that the traditional makers will find a way to incorporate the technology.

[Dale Thompson]

[QUOTE=Dev Emch]Wow Nellie!!!!
Mr. Dale Thompson, Please Read This! First of all, there has been a ton of posts here. You have accidently confused someone else with me as I never said that the tip of a 10 inch blade can go supersonic. At sea level, that is between 600 and 700 MPH.
[/QUOTE=Dev Emch]

Hey Dev,
Please accept my sincerest supersonic apology. :) At my advanced age, I am easily confused between Captain Crunch and Tony the Tiger. :( I don't even know what "supersonic" means. :confused: I read the word in one of the Superman Comics that my reading tutor is using to bring me to the brink of literacy. :cool:

Blame the Manhattan because my shop lights were OUT!! :D :)

Dale T.

[Frank Pellow]

2) Who ever said it wasn't about greed. It is about greed and so is every other object ever invented. I think the vast majority of things are invented in the hope that they will sell and generate a profit. That's capitalism: if you can invent and make something that people will buy, you get money. Lot's of good inventions came out of that sytem.
...

Not always true, I am pleased to say. :) For example Fredrick Banting, the "inventor" of insulin, refused to profit from it.

[Richard Wolf]

Frank, you have too much time on your hands, get in the shop!!!

Richard

[Dino Makropoulos]

Not always true, I am pleased to say. :) For example Fredrick Banting, the "inventor" of insulin refused to profit from it.

Frank. That was my response to Ken.
I explain it better on the other thread. :cool:

[Chris Barton]

Seems simple to me, if you see the value of the safety device, then buy it. If not, don't try to make an excuse that it should be the default for everyone. Too many posts on here now from folks buying HF stuff because they can't afford the real thing. How would that affect woodworking?

Personally, I don't want this item to become a "mandate" of safety. I think Dev's basic idea is right. Don't make this a requirement. Are we going to put "stops" on scroll saws? How about a "stop" on a pocket knife? May sound silly but, I really don't think more rules are the answer...

[Chris Barton]

PS: a few years ago FWW did a safety review and guess what power tool was the #1 safety risk with most reported injuries... Bandsaw!

[Frank Pellow]

Frank, you have too much time on your hands, get in the shop!!!

Richard
Richard, I did spend about 3 hours in the shop and 8 hours working on the deck just outside the shop (so far) today. A guy has to take a break every now and then, and I often look at the internet during my breaks (as I am doing right now). :D

[Chris Fite]

PS: a few years ago FWW did a safety review and guess what power tool was the #1 safety risk with most reported injuries... Bandsaw!

I think that the number of injuries on a bandsaw might well pale in comparison when severity of table saw injuries is measured against them.

[Chris Barton]

How many of our brethern smoke? Or, as like me are 30 lbs over weight? Truth be known, you are much more likely to be injured by your lifestyle, car or even by an intruder than by a table saw. In over 20 years of clinical practice I have yet to see a single table saw injury. They don't call me doctor for nothing...

[Per Swenson]

Chris,

How many hours a day you spend on a table saw?

Are you basing your assement on the weekend warrior

or a guy who makes a living at this?

Lets take falling injurys. 99% of people everyday do not walk on

pitched roofs. But ask any roofer how many times he has come off a

building.

Or merely come close.

Go to any carpenters union and ask them if they think

sawstop should be mandated. For that matter work residential,

where OSHA is just a 4 letter exlamation for oops.

As you may know I own a sawstop.

I started a family business where both my Father, who is 80

and my son who is almost 16 work. Both of my daughters who are

21 and 23 are in the shop all the time. I would have to be stupid not to

embrace this technology. Because this is my lifestyle.

This is not about a lawsuit or politics.

Frankly who cares. Besides I do not see how the outcome will

affect anybody. I do know that my family will continue to play the piano

though.

Per

[Chris Barton]

Per,


I applaude your purchase of the Sawstop. However, I agree with your purchase because you believe you need it not because aby data suggest that it will protect your family. In fact, no such data exists! We should make these decissions based on choice, not mandate. Using your anology, if we surveyed plumbers we would find that busted knuckels were tops on their list. Does that mean we should make them use a safety wrench? Why don't we let freedom ring rather than regulations...

[Richard Wolf]

Chris, have you tried to buy a car without an airbag lately??

Richard

[Chris Barton]

Hi Rich,

No I haven't. Have you seen the data on how many children and small adults are killed by airbags each year?

Chris

[Dino Makropoulos]

Per,


I applaude your purchase of the Sawstop. However, I agree with your purchase because you believe you need it not because aby data suggest that it will protect your family. In fact, no such data exists! We should make these decissions based on choice, not mandate. Using your anology, if we surveyed plumbers we would find that busted knuckels were tops on their list. Does that mean we should make them use a safety wrench? Why don't we let freedom ring rather than regulations...

Because you don't have the right to cut your hands and expect the society to pay for it.
Because at the end we all pay for it.
Table saw and related accidents cost few million dollars to prevent them and 5 Billion a year just for hospitalization bills.
Because if we don't find a safe way to cut wood, the whole industry suffers.
Do you have any idea how many schools close the woodworking shops every day? Who needs the liability??

[Chris Barton]

OK, I give up! You are right. And, I assume that you either own a Sawstop or that you will not use a tablesaw again until you do. Absolutely, we must put public safety above and beyond any other concern. Let's ban any tablesaw that is not a Sawstop! Isn't that the logical extension of your arguement????

[Richard Wolf]

Chris, I understand your point of view, but sometimes we need gov. to protect us from ourselves.
Like wearing helmets on motorcycles. Like Dino said, we don't have the right to cause brain damage to ourself and let the rest of society pick up the tab.
We all want our freedoms but I don't want to pay for your freedom.

Richard

[Chris Barton]

But Rich,


Let's be intellectually honest. Do you own a tablesaw? If so, are you no longer going to use it until you can purchase at Sawstop? If not, you have just refuted everything you just asserted????

[Richard Wolf]

Oh, don't give up, that sucks all the fun out of this tread.
By the way, I don't own a saw stop and don't think I ever will. I just see so many incompedent people buying power tools that it concerns me.

Richard

[Chris Barton]

Rich,


You da man! That's what I have been looking for. Let me make myself crystal clear; I think that Sawstop is a fine product. However, I don't want the government telling me that I have to pay 12K for a tablesaw because of the safety device. likewise, while I think that my friends that ride motorcycles without helments are nuts, in TN it is not required. Around my office we call those folks organ donors. Let the folks that want the product buy the product. let the others be called lefty. but, don't let the government tell you how to live (again).

[Dino Makropoulos]

Oh, don't give up, that sucks all the fun out of this tread.
By the way, I don't own a saw stop and don't think I ever will. I just see so many incompedent people buying power tools that it concerns me.

Richard
Try to get liability insurance for construction and carpentry/woodworking.
You have to pay for ALL this people.
I never have a single claim in 25 years and over 200 people over the years working in my construction/woodworking business.
At the end I was paying for ALL those incompetent and innocent people. :confused:

[Per Swenson]

Chris,

Forget the politics, forget the lawsuit, forget the let freedom

ring nonsense. I am going to tell you about the unreported,

non statiscal real world. And I will bet that Mr. Wolf might agree.

In my world I hang with Carpenters, framers, stairbuilders,

mill workers and artists. These are the people who come to my house

and I meet a social and work related functions.

Like the annual lumber yard bluefishing trip or

the Georgia Pacific Pig Roast and the American legion.


( I have 30 years in the trades and associated work.)

2 out of 5 have something missing or a nice scar, work related.

Most little end slices, you know just the tips, go unreported.

Lil duct tape and back to work.

Remember I am not talking a hour a week on a machine.

If I was concerned with politics and goverment I would

focus elsewhere in the goverment' s abilty to erode your rights.

Per

[Richard Wolf]

Chris, you are assuming that everyone has the experience, intelligence and interlect to make a educated choice, that's my concern. Maybe mandating the saw stop is not the answer, maybe required shop classes in H.S. are the right way to protect people.

People are not allowed to climb into an automoble with training. Is the use for power tools to be left to self education?

Richard

[Chris Barton]

I am with you borther. However, what is perhaps the greatest risk in life? I would argue that being a parent is. Should we make it a requirement that for anyone to become a parent they must be trained first? I personally would agree with that. How many folks here had professional traning prior to getting and using their tablesaw, raise your hands? Here is a novel idea, why don't we make people responsible for their actions and behaviors...

[Richard Wolf]

Per, I admire your choice to buy the saw stop, and you are correct, there are a ton of us walking around with 9 1/2 instead of 10.
The two danger areas are being new with the tool when you think you are very careful because maybe you fear it a bit, and the latter phase when you have so much experience that you get complacent. The second is what got me. Over 40 years of pushing wood past a saw blade and I got a little stupid and took some flesh.
That was last August and I promised myself that from then on I would be doing things more saftly. I hope I continue to work this way.

Richard

[Chris Barton]

Dear Per,


I understand your viewpoint. However, of these tradesmen, how many had injuries due to tablesaws? I have seen several injuries due to circular saws, many due to drills and many due to power nailers. But, tablesaws; zero. Let's be honest. for the population you mention the most dangerous tool they will encounter is a hammer...

[Richard Wolf]

Should we make it a requirement that for anyone to become a parent they must be trained first?

Yes

Richard

[Richard Wolf]

Chris, how would you feel if the gov. invented this technology (saw stop) and gave it to all the table saw manufactures to use in their saws? No increase in price and no one getting fat off of it.

Richard

[Chris Barton]

Per and Richard,


The next time I am in the NE you will receive an invitation to join me for a pint or two and I am absolutely certain that we will have a smashing time. I have argued for no mandate here based upon the fact that in my business the government mandates everything I do, with most of their efforts being misplaced. I don't know how much pressure they exert upon your professions.

Richard, I believe we are kindred spirits. We enjoy a debate for the sake of the joust. Now that I understand your perspective, I can see your viewpoint much more clearly. Unfortuneately, we can't save people from themselves. I muse that if I were a carpenter and were trying to start up a new business that the government telling me that I need to spend the amount for a Sawstop (versus equiping a very decent shop entirely) that I would be rather pissy. But, what do I know? Per, are you willing to spend that amount out of your pocket everytime the government tells you to do so? Is ther no room for responsibility and logic here?

[Richard Wolf]

Per and Chris, you are always welcome.

Richard

[Chris Barton]

Chris, how would you feel if the gov. invented this technology (saw stop) and gave it to all the table saw manufactures to use in their saws? No increase in price and no one getting fat off of it.

Richard

Let the market and the consumer decide. We know that smoking is likely the most dangerous threat to health in the country. What if physicians said that they would not treat anyone who continues to smoke?

[Richard Wolf]

I have little compassion for smokers.

Richard

[Chris Barton]

Rich, Per,


It has been fun but, it is getting late and I must go to bed. Thanks for the lively conversation!

Chris

[jack duren]

" I muse that if I were a carpenter and were trying to start up a new business that the government telling me that I need to spend the amount for a Sawstop (versus equiping a very decent shop entirely) that I would be rather pissy. But, what do I know? Per, are you willing to spend that amount out of your pocket everytime the government tells you to do so? Is ther no room for responsibility and logic here?"

what part is responsible or logic here?

if the government left safety up to each of us to decide whats safe and what wasnt we would bury ourselves quickly.

rules/laws for setting up a shop are there to protect "everyone" involved. workmans comp isnt a safety net for ignorance.

if your shop/job depended on "you" for a roof over its head and groceries on the table and you sustained a major injury i guess it would be "GAME OVER".

i guess the opinions between ametuer and professional woodworks are going to vary considerable. im on the professional end, though most shops dont use guards for one reason or another the invention of SAWSTOP would very easily be introduced into the workplace as it doesnt interfer with normal shop activities.....jack

[Bill Fields]

Ken-


A long rant, but I read every word.

In my consulting business, I frequently get ideas/patents that solve a non-existing problem--always at a substantial penalty.

Thanks for your input!

BILL FIELDS