Curly Maple -- should I fight tear out with sandpaper or stick to planes/scrapers?

[Mike Allen1010]

I need some advice from the folks here in the cave.

When it comes to surfacing stock I'm strictly a hand tool user (don't have any stationary power tools -- joiner, thickness plainer etc.). Most of the time I choose words that are "hand tool friendly", because for me they're just more fun to work.

I am currently building a small chest out of curly maple. The wood has a beautiful "flame" figure that I just couldn't resist. However it is really hard and there are significant sections of reversing grain and I've gotten some tearout while planing.

I have been able to tame most of the terror out with higher angle planes and scrapers (BTW the Norris style infill plane I built from a St. James Bay kit, with a Hock blade is giving me the best results -- better than I ever expected frankly). However there still are some small spots of tear out and I'm wondering if I should try some sandpaper or keep at it with the scrapers etc.?

Really I'm interested in the perspective and advise from my fellow Neanders about the larger question of whether a finished surface that has only been worked with edge tools (planes and scrapers) is always going to have a better appearance than one that has been sanded, regardless of how fine in grit is used?

I was trained that hand planes cleanly sever the cells and fibers of the wood which allows the surface of the work to better reflect light, and therefore results in a greater clarity and depth of finish, than a surface that has been sanded. The thought was even find grit sandpaper tears the edges of the cells and fibers in the wood and therefore reduces its ability to reflect light.

I'm interested in what others think about this idea? I can't say that I've ever seen any documentation - this was just the way I was trained. I do use 600 grit wet dry sandpaper in finishing to level applied finishes inbetween coats etc. By doing this, am I already tearing the wood fibers I worked so hard to sever cleanly during final planning?

As always, any insights, advice and suggestions are much appreciated!

All the best, Mike

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

I work with lots of heavily flamed maple in my instrument-making. To tame tear-out, I dampen the wood and scrape in the direction of the flames (curls). This leaves a rather rough surface, which is then smoothed out with a thin scraper that has a minimal burr, in the direction of the grain. After grain-raising I sand lightly with 400 and the result is beautiful.

[Dale Cruea]

I have been working some curly soft maple the last couple of weeks.
The only tool I have that will remove the tear out is a LV BU jack plane.
I hone my blade to 35* and it works well for me.

[bob blakeborough]

I have a ton of really figured curly/flame maple and flame cherry, and I have yet to find any piece I haven't been able to tame without issue using my Veritas BU Smoother. I have two 38 degree blades so I just started putting a 50 degree secondary bevel on one of them and never looked back. Works crazy well!

[Chris Griggs]

Mike IIRC, you mainly are using vintage planes and homemade woodies. (Also, why have we seen no pics of your competed plane kit??? and what is it bedded at?)

Anway, if you have the BU planes mentioned than be all means use them. If not, I encourage you to give your nothing fancy plain ole bailey planes another shot. I've been planing a Nakashima-esc slab of walnut with a big VERY hard swirl with lots of figure right through the middle where large a branch came out. My jack plane tore it out like crazy, I should have been more delicate with my roughing work. I followed with my Sargent jointer. Wiith a freshly sharpened blade and closely set chipbreaker even taking only moderately light cuts most the tearout was removed. Followed with my bailey number 4, again freshly honed, closely set CB removed all the tearout without trouble. A freshly honed blade and a very closely set chipbreaker and a thin cut can work wonders with just about any plane. The surface is not glass smooth on the hardest most figured sections, but the tearout is GONE. It been working for me on birdseye lately too.

I will say that this experience has made me want to get a toothing blade for my LA jack - swirly knots and birdeye eye figure do not play with a regular coarsely set jack plane.

Oh and if you do go the sanding route, i seriously doubt 99.9999% of people will ever know the difference.

[Pat Megowan]

whether a finished surface that has only been worked with edge tools (planes and scrapers) is always going to have a better appearance than one that has been sanded, regardless of how fine in grit is used?

this was just the way I was trained.

To answer your main question directly, No, it won't always have a better appearance, for a variety of reasons. You'll also find differences in feel (tactile quality of surfaces/edges) that you prefer. The finishing and rubout processes will have nuanced differences as well. And you may find you simply prefer one progression to another.

MORE IMPORTANT: don't settle for what I just said, or anything else you read, because that's just more "training". Better is a matter of taste, why not have your work express your taste? Turn your training into experience, then you'll actually know what you like and how to get there.

Prepare samples using your different approaches, finish them and decide what YOU like.

A couple thoughts:

- hard curly maple often planes tear out free w/a very sharp blade (6-8K grit done well) at .001-.002" shavings, no high angle or tight mouth. The same blade with a thicker shaving will tear out. Obviously every board is different, but this is an easy test.

- curly wood have grain have constant grain reversals, that's what makes curl, but it may still plane better in one direction than the other.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

When I have sanded curly maple, the things I had to do were to sand to higher grits than I normally would sand bare wood, I think last time I went from 220 to a series of scotch bright pads; the other thing was to make sure to always use a block when sanding - some of the curly maple I've worked with have been hard/soft/hard - almost like dealing with something like the early-late wood difference in some pines (although in the direction of the curl and not the grain) - without a backer, you can get a sort of undulating effect, which can look pretty bad if you're doing a gloss finish.

Experiment with the finishes you're going to use, as well - if you're just putting straight finish on it, it may not be an issue, but if you're doing any dying or staining, you may find a different effect depending on whether you sand or cut, and you may like one more than the other.

I like a cut edge better than a sanded one on curly maple, and the trick has always just been sharp blades that you keep sharp. I've tried to do as much major stock removal across the grain - not only can I remove stock quicker that way, but I get less of the hard-to-overcome tearout where a chunk lifts up. Then when I go to jointing, I take a thinner shaving than I normally would. But you can get away with a lot if your tools are sharp - I've gotten some near perfect smooth surfaces making rabbets on a curly maple box lid using a moving fillester - so no chipbreaker, and on at least one side of the box the plane was going against the grain.

[Zach Dillinger]

Do whatever you need to do to get the best possible surface for your work. If that means planing, do it, if you can plane out the tearout. If not, scrape or sand. The only problem that comes from this choice is if you are unhappy with the final result.

[Jim Stewart]

The finishing with a 50 degree blade in a LV smoothing plane will not tear the grain out. I am sure that a LN with a 55 degree frog would work as well. The problem is getting to the point where you can use that tool. I know the spiral head planers do a nice job on figured wood but you would have to find someone with one of those. By hand planing you would eventually get there with lots of hard work and sharpening. The LV smoother that I have takes some muscle to use it on figured Maple but it does a very nice job. LN has a #4 and it would do the job with the 55 degree frog. I have a LN #4 standard frog, and I smooth with it on none figured woods. I do so because it pushes a lot easier. I do use the LN# 4 a bunch and I suspect by using one you will get minimal tear-out with the standard frog but would have to finish with either LV smoother with 50 degree blade or LN with a 55 degree frog. This wood working is fun, but you need either a lot of tools or a lot of time. Oh, if you have any LV bevel up you could sharpen the blade at 50 degree and have a smoother. The longer the plane the more work, however. Jim

[Jim Belair]

I've worked with a fair bit of curly maple too and have been under the impression that if one starts scraping (or sanding) you need to scrape (or sand) the whole surface, otherwise differences will be apparent in the finished surface. There certainly is a marked difference in the unfinished surface appearance.

Earlier today I read this blog post, now I'm not so sure.

http://breenbushdesign.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/walnut-shellac-and-surface-preparation/

[Pat Megowan]

The finishing with a 50 degree blade in a LV smoothing plane will not tear the grain out. I am sure that a LN with a 55 degree frog would work as well. The problem is getting to the point where you can use that tool. I know the spiral head planers do a nice job on figured wood but you would have to find someone with one of those. By hand planing you would eventually get there with lots of hard work and sharpening. The LV smoother that I have takes some muscle to use it on figured Maple but it does a very nice job. LN has a #4 and it would do the job with the 55 degree frog. I have a LN #4 standard frog, and I smooth with it on none figured woods. I do so because it pushes a lot easier. I do use the LN# 4 a bunch and I suspect by using one you will get minimal tear-out with the standard frog but would have to finish with either LV smoother with 50 degree blade or LN with a 55 degree frog. This wood working is fun, but you need either a lot of tools or a lot of time. Oh, if you have any LV bevel up you could sharpen the blade at 50 degree and have a smoother. The longer the plane the more work, however. Jim

I'd respectfully suggest that better sharpening, a finer shaving (.001 to .002"), and a few techniques could substitute for "lots of tools and lots of time". At LN hand tool events even new woodworkers consistently plane curly hard maple dead smooth with a 45 degree no. 4. A thou or two heavier and it tears out, ditto as the tool dulls. THis is a stock tool out of the box (sometimes even a 2nd!) w/no specialized adjustment like tightening the mouth.

They are sharpened very quickly on a single Norton 1000/8000 waterstone with a small 30 degree secondary bevel (over a 25 degree primary bevel) using an eclipse guide. No claim this is best, just one fast, easy, low cost method, though I hate combo stones and always recommend separate medium (1000-ish) and fine (6-8000-ish) stones, and frankly any good brand works fine.

Setting a fine cut is not hard, but must be learned and checked until it's automatic.

For heavier removal prior to smoothing, working across the board (rather than along the length) can usually be done with a much deeper cut. It won't look pretty, but usually avoids deep tear out and brings you within range of a fine set smoother.

You're quite right, a high angle plane will handle even more difficult grain, and a scraper more difficult yet--each with a cost in speed, amount of effort, and additional tool purchases--but it's well worth learning to get the max from a few tools.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I've been dealing with a pretty ornery piece of curly maple to make a small hanging box. It was tearing out like crazy no matter what I tried. I set my LV BU jointer to a fine shaving and started planing at about a 30 degree angle across the board as I got closer to my gauge lines. The tear out went away. Since I was working more across the board than along it, I stopped to check with a 24" straight edge and winding sticks every few minutes.
Much of the mass stock removal prior to using the jointer was done with my Hock jack plane, at a 45ish degree angle to the grain.
As an aside, since I was forced to pay extra attention to the dimensions of the board, I actually planed a lot more accurately. My jointer has only a 25 degree iron, and no special micro bevel.

[David Weaver]

Setting the second iron tight (like 4 to 6 thousandths) and making sure the fit is good should make working around the face of the door frame fairly trivial. If you are going to plane the center panel and it's flush with the sticking, that will be a bit more interesting unless you do it first. for the sticking, as long as the iron is skewed as the plane transitions over the sticking on the final cuts, you should get a tearout free surface. The only bad cut for a plane with a second iron tight is directly across the grain, and it should be just about impossible for that to occur.

I usually go as lightly as possible knocking the standing grain down after shellac. I don't know how much of a difference it makes in the final piece, though.

[Richard Shaefer]

I'd respectfully suggest that better sharpening, a finer shaving (.001 to .002"), and a few techniques could substitute for "lots of tools and lots of time". At LN hand tool events even new woodworkers consistently plane curly hard maple dead smooth with a 45 degree no. 4. A thou or two heavier and it tears out, ditto as the tool dulls. THis is a stock tool out of the box (sometimes even a 2nd!) w/no specialized adjustment like tightening the mouth.

They are sharpened very quickly on a single Norton 1000/8000 waterstone with a small 30 degree secondary bevel (over a 25 degree primary bevel) using an eclipse guide. No claim this is best, just one fast, easy, low cost method, though I hate combo stones and always recommend separate medium (1000-ish) and fine (6-8000-ish) stones, and frankly any good brand works fine.

Setting a fine cut is not hard, but must be learned and checked until it's automatic.

For heavier removal prior to smoothing, working across the board (rather than along the length) can usually be done with a much deeper cut. It won't look pretty, but usually avoids deep tear out and brings you within range of a fine set smoother.

You're quite right, a high angle plane will handle even more difficult grain, and a scraper more difficult yet--each with a cost in speed, amount of effort, and additional tool purchases--but it's well worth learning to get the max from a few tools.


+1. I have a really nasty piece of birdseye maple with ton of curl in it that I just made glass smooth with my LN 4 1/2 equipped with a 50* frog and set for wisp thin shavings. It's completely possible, but you have to just kiss the wood with a REALLY sharp edge and you have to swipe it at an angle so you get some side shear action in the cut. for reference value, I tried doing the same with my LN LA 62 jack, and I got more tearout than I wanted.

[Pat Megowan]

+1. It's completely possible...kiss the wood with a REALLY sharp edge

Right on Richard, and if the wood has a better direction, find it and plane in that one. Skewing the plane may help or not--I try it to see if it helps but don't find it a universal magic, though some swear by it. Btw, sometimes one skew direction works better than the other.


for reference value, I tried doing the same with my LN LA 62 jack, and I got more tearout than I wanted.

but for another reference, we regularly plane the curly maple to the same quality with the 62.

Worth noting: w/a bevel up plane (like the 62) you can easily increase the cutting angle by raising the sharpening angle of the secondary bevel. It's useful enough that I keep a second 62 blade honed at 45 degrees (still ground at 25) for the most difficult woods.

birdseye can be very demanding.

[Stanley Covington]

If you can do the job with planes, more power to you. Sometimes even the sharpest blade in the ideal plane with the smallest possible mouth cannot prevent every tiny bit of tearout. Usually a scraper can vanquish even the most difficult grain, but the final finish it leaves may not be too impressive. Don't feel bad about using sandpaper though: the Egyptians were using something similar before the plane was invented after all, and it was good enough for Duncan Phye.

Stan

[Chris Griggs]

Gotta agree with Stan here. While my ultimate goal is to have a finished plane surface, a large part of my goal when trying to plane out as much tearout as possible has more to do with avoiding the ROS and dust than it does with finished surface. Plane out as much tearout as possible, if you just can't get it all scrape the little spots that the plane can't reach (if its a low spot) or can't stop the tearout, than sand over everything at 220. I don't like lots of heavy sanding, but I don't mind a bit of light hand sanding. Honestly I sand most my highly visible surfaces lightly at 220 or higher (GASP). Not because they need it, more as a safety net in case I missed very small flaws that would be magnified by the finish.

As much as I like to finish on a planed surface it is one of those things that I think gets overhyped - though I don't feel as though I have enough experience to day that definitively in any way - I've just never noticed as big of a difference as a lot of people speak about.

[Chris Fournier]

I would always choose a very sharp handplane and some careful work - use some water on the tough spots - to surface curly anything. While you may get the tearout removed using a scraper, all too often you wil be horrified when you apply the finish. The scraper tends to follow the reversing grain in figured wood and creates a surface that may be free of tear out but also be anything but flat. In short the surface looks like crap. Do a test to see what I mean. Super sharp plane, moistened wood fibres and creative attack to problem areas and you'll beat the figure 9.9 times out of 10. Razor sharp is critical.

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks everyone for your advice about how to deal with tear out with curly maple.

As this was my first all hand tool project with curly maple,I was definitely struggling getting smooth hand planed surfaces. This maple has given me renewed respect for the instrument makers and others here in the Cave that work with this kind of hard, reversing grain wood on a regular basis. Maple will probably not my first choice for my next all Neander project!

The advice that really helped me the most was to dampen the areas with tear out, and especially to take the thinner shavings. I that was my biggest problem, I was taking shavings of a thickness that had always worked well for me in other hardwoods, but in this curly maple was resulting in tear out. When I went for thinner shaving the tear out was eliminated. I don't have a micrometer so don't know what the thickness of the shavings would measure at.

In the pictures below, the shaving on the left is my "normal" thickness Finish plane shaving, that was resulting in tearout. The shaving on the right is the thinner shaping that resulted in no tearout. The same plane -- a 50° bed angle infill kit f/ St. James Bay with a Hock blade, the only difference was a thinner shaving.


246846246848246847

For me one of the things I enjoy most about woodworking is learning new skills and overcoming challenges. Sometimes it works out -- sometimes not so much!

I really appreciate all the advice I get here on in the Cave. Thanks again to all the folks above whose advice help me out to get a smooth surface on this curly maple right off the plane. I didn't end up needing scrapers or sandpaper. Without you, this project would be back in the lumber racks.

I hope that a decent finish will bring out the figure and depth in the wood and I'll end up with something worthwhile.

All the best, Mike



246845246849246850246844

[Prashun Patel]

Mike, I'm resurrecting this thread. I am working on a curly maple desktop and am having tear out issues. I too am having luck wetting the surface. I'm curious as to why this helps. Also, is there a difference in using water vs mineral spirits?

I'd like to see how you finished it too? I am thinking oil/varnish....

[Richard Wootton]

That Maple is absolutely gorgeous!

[Mike Allen1010]

Hi Pashtun,

I'm certainly no expert, but the advice I got here from Richard, David, Chris and others that made the biggest difference for me in getting a nice finish on the curly maple right off the plane was:

1) Freshly sharpened goes without saying, but "super thin" shavings made a big difference, thinner then I usually take w/ other cabinet woods.

2) a 50° frog (with super tight chipbreaker -- per David Weaver) and LV bevel up @ 47° gave me the best results. I found a heavy plane, with lots of mass was easiest for me to use.

3) I dampen the really cross grain areas with water which helped a lot - personally I didn't try mineral spirits so don't know how that would go.

I finished with a couple coasts of Watco "natural" oil varnish, which I think helped bring out the shimmer and figure. Also I used some inlay with walnut and Paduk veneer and I think this helped highlight the contrasting colors.

I finished with several coats of 1 pound cut blond shellac and some paste wax-- mostly because I just love the depth, and feel I of shellac. I don't know much about finishing - this is my "go to" finish for figured woods - mostly because I've screwed it up enough times to learn how to get decent results.

Next time I would like to experiment with some dye to get a darker, more "antique" look. I love the look Glen Huey gets on his maple in his book " Building 18th. Century American Furniture", but I don't have any idea how he does it.

Pashtun, hope this is helpful and I look forward to seeing your desk.

All the best, Mike
251599251603251604251601251602251605251600

[Andrew Hughes]

Looks great mike,that maple will take some time to age but it will be worth the wait.A blanket chest is something I would like to build someday.
BTW I love the saw keep it in my truck now I don't have to drive home with boards sticking thru the rear window and hanging over the tailgate on my little yoga truck.

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks Andrew, "truck saws" certainly do come in handy - I know mine has keep me from looking like a circus "clown car" with lumber hanging out everywhere, more than once!

Prashun, please forgive my horrible spelling.

Mike