(Another…) request for help selecting sharpening stones

[Adrian Ponik]

Hi everyone,

I’m relatively new to the whole hand tool side of woodworking and thus to sharpening as well. Over the last week or two I’ve read a ton here and on other forums about sharpening stones, processes, etc. and it certainly is a little overwhelming. I think I finally have some ideas on what would be good stones for me, but I have some questions too I’m hoping will help me make my final decision.

First some background. Like I said, I’m relatively new to hand tools. I have several old (1900-1940s) Stanley hand planes, a few chisels (which I’m looking to upgrade soon-ish), and would probably sharpen my kitchen knives too just because I can. All of my hand planes have original blades (ie old steel), although a few are getting rather short which I’ll probably replace with A2 steel blades from Lee Valley.

My “shop” is an unheated, uninsulated, 1 car garage in Michigan. It gets really darn close to freezing in winter, and will occasionally dip below freezing. I know whatever stones I select cannot live in the garage. I really like the idea of splash-and-go stones, especially since I’ll probably have to take my stones from the house to the garage to use them (my wife isn’t fond of my sharpening in/near the kitchen sink), so having stones permanently soaking would be a little cumbersome. I also know myself well enough to know that I wouldn’t really want to wait for soaker stones to really soak before using them, if something is dull I just want to sharpen it, not wait around for stones to soak.
So, after reading a ton of threads (and a lot of posts from Stu and David Weaver) I’m debating between the Sigma Power and Shapton stones. I’m also on a budget, and can’t really afford to spend $300 on stones and accessories.

I’m looking at these two sets:
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1668
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shpro2pcset1.html

Stu’s Sigma Power set + shipping would be at just under $200, and if I got the Shapton set I’d have to get a diamond stone to flatten them (or something similar like a lapping plate + loose diamonds) and some kind of stone holder, so it too would get me to right around if not slightly above $200.

So questions:

1) Would the #6000 Sigma Power and #5000 Shapton stones be fine enough for wood working purposes if followed by a strop? I could step up to the “bigger” 3 stone sets, but then we’re in the $300 ballpark I’m trying to avoid.
2) The Shapton stones are really appealing to me due to the splash-and-go nature of them. However, I’ve heard really good things about the Sigma Powers. How long do they really need to soak? Is it a problem for them to completely dry out between uses?
3) I’ve heard some about the Shapton stones and stiction. Is this real or just a user-induced thing? Having essentially no sharpening experience, are the Shaptons something a newbie like myself could learn on?
4) I’m also considering getting a LV Veritas Mk II Honing guide (at least for the rougher stones) would this be a problem/damaging to either of these options?

Taking all these things into consideration, I’m leaning toward the Shaptons. My biggest thing is I want to be able to get the stones out and sharpen and not have to have them soaking permanently in order to do so. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, and sorry for the super-long winded post.

-Adrian

[Sam Takeuchi]

1)If you can strop, then you can make do with #5000 or #6000 stone. Maybe other people would recommend higher grit stones before going for strop and I would too if you can afford it, but it should be perfectly do-able.

2)Shapton Pro can benefit from some soaking, too. In fact, Shapton Pro comes with an instruction that polishing stones (above #5000) to be soaked for some minutes. I know some people just splash and go, but if you like to get some mud up, soak them. When I used Shapton Pro, I soaked #5000 and #12000. When they are just splashed, they were hard and there wasn't much feedback to work with. I didn't like it at all. Soak them for like 5 minutes to soften them up seemed fine for me. They worked out creamy gray mud which I liked at that point. #1000 was very temperamental and I never liked it. There were times when it cut aggressively and fast, sometimes just didn't cut for worth a crap. Not sure why, but mine was like that. Even for #1000, I used more than a splash though. I dip it in water, let it soak up first and keep splashing as needed.
It's not a problem to dry out between uses. In fact, I don't recommend keeping some stones in water. Some will get too soft. Not sure how Shapton Pro will do when kept in water. I think Stu experimented enough to know which one can stay in water, which shouldn't. Either way, taking stones out between sharpening and drying them is not a problem for Shapton Pros. Not sure if it's a problem for any other stones.

3) Stiction is very severe on higher grit stone. A drop of dish washing soap onto the stone will reduce that problem by breaking surface tension of water. It's an easy remedy, but can make blade little slippery, so be careful.

4) No.

I recommend Sigma Power. Shapton Pros are not bad stones, they will work fine for most applications, but they are kind of bland as far as feedback and nuance go. If you want to get more out of them, you should soak a bit anyway. If you really want to avoid soaking, and all that watery mess, go with oilstones. Tried and tested, stays flat helluvalot longer (albeit cut a bit slower) and don't need to worry about soaking, drying or what have you.

[Joey Naeger]

I wouldn't be too concerned about stones needing soaking. What we all do at the shop is keep a tupperware full of water and the stones just live in them. Really easy, and they're ready to go whenever. The real problem stones are the ones that need short soaks. The sigma stones you're looking at are what I use and they are a fantastic choice. Zero complaints here. I keep the 1k stone in the tupperware, and the rest don't need soaking. I like the feel of the 6k after a short soak so I stick it in the tupperware while I'm using the 1k stone. I've never used the shaptons, but I'm sure they're great stones as well. If money is a concern, you could get by with much less however. When I started, I had two King combination stones (1000/6000) and I flattened them against each other. It's a little slow, but it worked just fine for me. They needed to be soaked, but I stored them in a tupperware permanently so no problem there. The king stones produce a perfectly acceptable edge, and you could add/replace stones as your needs become more demanding.

This is my personal preference here, but I strongly recommend that instead of a honing guide, you invest in a bench grinder. Hollow grinding is in my opinion, a much faster method of honing, and having the grinder will allow you to fix chipped edges more easily. A cheap grinder with the stock wheels will work just fine. You can either make a wooden tool rest or buy the veritas one. By hollow grinding, you are turning your bevels into jigs so you can go straight to sharpening once your tools have dulled. No fidgeting with getting the blade set just right, and you only have to hone a small amount of material. Hope this helps

[Victor Robinson]

Adrian, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest what worked for me. I'm a handtool newb also and have nowhere near the wealth of experience that many posters have on here. For a long time I believed that I needed to spend a lot of money for good stones, but after tinkering with sharpening with a limited budget for a while, here's what I came up with:

1) Veritas MkII honing guide. For me, this is a must.
2) Sharpening: For rough work/primary bevel I just use 320g wet/dry sandpaper on glass with the honing guide. Works just fine. It also works just fine for flattening waterstones...takes 3 seconds. I don't believe you need a diamond plate here so you can save yourself some cash. I follow this with a 1000/6000 combo stone (that is sold on AMZ and Hartville for like $30). It's a bit narrow, and probably will wear out one day, but I have like 4 hand planes, 6 total plane irons, and a set of chisels that I use WITH power tools, so it will take me a long time to wear it out. As far as the stone itself, I leave it in a rectangular tupperware dish with lid in water.
3) Final polish with Lee Valley's green compound (1 bar will last you a lifetime) on MDF.

This setup, for which the major cost is the honing guide, produces the finest shavings (<0.001" if you want to quantify, shaves your arm hair easily, etc.). But, thinking I could do better than my cheap setup, I recently got a Sigma II 10,000 stone. Turns out going from the cheap 6000 I already have to the Sigma 10k and still finishing up with the green doesn't produce any noticeable difference. Ending with the 10k instead of the green isn't quite as sharp as finishing with the green (expected since the particle size is smaller on the green compound). This is on A2 blades.

I guess my point is just this - you don't have to spend a lot of money on a sharpening setup if you don't want to...the honing guide is where the splurge makes the most sense for a beginner I think and the LV honing guide is really a gem. Your results in terms of final sharpness can be just as good with cheaper stones. The more expensive stones may have nifty features like not needing to soak, or cutting slightly faster, etc., but for ME as a HOBBYIST who doesn't use hand tools full-time, the difference right now in use (not sharpness) is so negligible that I'd rather put that money (for now) into expanding my tool collection. Don't get me wrong - I've been drooling over fancy stones for a while. It's just once I got one that I figured out that I already had a really really good setup for very little money.

Just my $0.02.

[David Weaver]

In a cold shop (it's not the stones I'm concerned about, it's your hands getting cold stones out of the cold water), I would have two shaptons - the 1k shapton and the cream shapton, it should be about $150 for the two.

And I literally would start with this to flatten the stones and use it like a nagura if money is tight:

http://www.harborfreight.com/4-sided-diamond-hone-block-92867.html

They are relatively flat and if you rub them around on the surface of a stone and change directions, they work fine. Sure, an atoma is nicer, but i have been keeping my stones flat with the HF thing for a little while just to see if it's something that can be used to get people started.

Shapton instructs 10 minutes of soaking for the stones or something, but I prefer them with no soaking. If you need them to be slicker on the surface, work up a slurry with the diamond hone.

I still always make my way back to the 1k and 15k shapton pros (what's called 12k is plenty fine, much finer than most 8000 grit stones).

[Archie England]

1)If you can strop, then you can make do with #5000 or #6000 stone. Maybe other people would recommend higher grit stones before going for strop and I would too if you can afford it, but it should be perfectly do-able.

2)Shapton Pro can benefit from some soaking, too. In fact, Shapton Pro comes with an instruction that polishing stones (above #5000) to be soaked for some minutes. I know some people just splash and go, but if you like to get some mud up, soak them. When I used Shapton Pro, I soaked #5000 and #12000. When they are just splashed, they were hard and there wasn't much feedback to work with. I didn't like it at all. Soak them for like 5 minutes to soften them up seemed fine for me. They worked out creamy gray mud which I liked at that point. #1000 was very temperamental and I never liked it. There were times when it cut aggressively and fast, sometimes just didn't cut for worth a crap. Not sure why, but mine was like that. Even for #1000, I used more than a splash though. I dip it in water, let it soak up first and keep splashing as needed.
It's not a problem to dry out between uses. In fact, I don't recommend keeping some stones in water. Some will get too soft. Not sure how Shapton Pro will do when kept in water. I think Stu experimented enough to know which one can stay in water, which shouldn't. Either way, taking stones out between sharpening and drying them is not a problem for Shapton Pros. Not sure if it's a problem for any other stones.

3) Stiction is very severe on higher grit stone. A drop of dish washing soap onto the stone will reduce that problem by breaking surface tension of water. It's an easy remedy, but can make blade little slippery, so be careful.

4) No.

I recommend Sigma Power. Shapton Pros are not bad stones, they will work fine for most applications, but they are kind of bland as far as feedback and nuance go. If you want to get more out of them, you should soak a bit anyway. If you really want to avoid soaking, and all that watery mess, go with oilstones. Tried and tested, stays flat helluvalot longer (albeit cut a bit slower) and don't need to worry about soaking, drying or what have you.

+1. Exceptionally well stated...from my perspective, too.

The Atoma 400 should do a fabulous job on the Shapton Pro and Sigma Powers stones. If you buy from Stu, his iWood 300 is a less expensive but nearly as robust as the Atoma. I would buy the iWood again. It's that good.

BTW, Stu has informed us that freezing will not affect the Sigma stones and that they can perma soak, too.

[Jacob Reverb]

I haven't tried other types/brands, but I really like the Norton waterstones. They cut fast and get stuff SHARP.
I have a Norton 1000/4000 combo stone and it does just about everything I need.

[David Keller NC]

Adrian: I'm going to stay away from the "which water stones should I buy" issue. IMO, there are tons of choices that are all good, and the "better" aspect of it dpends on the specific user and the specific task that he/she is doing.

I should say that I own both water stones and oil stones. I typically sharpen plane irons and chisels with water stones, but that is only because I live alone and there's no SWMBO to tell me that I can't get near the kitchen sink with my sharpening equipment.:)

If I had your situation (a shop that is only heated when I'm in there), I would go with oilstones a strop, and a grinder. While you will eventually have to purchase a flattening solution for the oilstones, that will be years from now. And you can get a chisel or plane iron just as sharp, at least for woodworking purposes, with a couple of oilstones and a strop. The reason I know this is that I'm a woodcarver. While you can still use a semi-dull plane to hog off shavings, it's pretty much impossible to use a carving tool that is anything other than well beyond razor sharp.

And most of us woodcarvers much prefer oilstones for sharpening carving tools because there's a zero chance of gouging a stone with a small carving tool.

With hollow grinding, you will not need a honing guide, and the time between "Gee, this chisel is dull" to "Back to work" will be a whole lot less than if you don't hollow grind and are sharpening the whole bevel, regardless if that sharpening is on water stones or an oilstone.

In regards to oilstones - if you go this route, you don't require a translucent arkansas (Lots of $$$). They are nice to have, but definitely not required. The inexpensive route is to go with a medium washita (or soft arkansas) and a hard (or "surgical black") arkansas. If you need to do heavy bevel reshaping and don't go with a grinder, you may need to add an India (crystolon) into the mix.

[Curt Putnam]

FWIW, I have no expertise in the field so what I did, after a year+ of experimentation, was to make a couple decisions. The 1st was to use my Worksharp for coarse grinding. Once your edges are at the point of "well maintained" you should seldom need to resort to coarse level grinding. Of course,, frequently changing bevel angles or using micro bevels, etc. ups the requirement for coarse work. The 2nd decision was that I wanted a 3 stone step to done: 1K, 5 0r 6K and 10K+. Actually there was a third decision which was to simply go with whatever Stu recommended. I wound up with the set on his opening page: Sigma Power 1K,6K and 13K, Atoma 400 and a Suehiro tray. I love that tray and need to get a couple more. I am impressed with all 3 stones (as compared to diamond, King and Norton.) They all fall in the category of splash and go. The 6K & 13K can be used dry. The 1K wants the surface covered with water (spread with fingers). It'll be ready before you can chuck anything in the MK II honing guide (which I heartily recommend.)

IMO,If you have to, a Sigma Power 6K and a strop will serve very well for edge maintenance. Sandpaper will do the infrequent coarse work. If you can pull it off, I very much recommend the set I bought. Stu believes in it enough to cut his profit on it - his gift to the woodworking world. As I said, I'm no expert, but the scenario I described above is working very well for me on my "old" steels, O1, A2 and PM VII steels.

[Adam Cruea]

I ordered the 3 stone Sigma set from Stu, and I have to say, they are wonderful. Never tried the Shaptons.

What I do is just keep all 3 stones in the water, in a 2 gallon bucket. Keep a lid on it. Then you can haul it out to the garage when you need to sharpen, and when you don't, you can just leave it sit somewhere.

If I were you, I'd just suck it up and get the 3 stone set Stu has that comes with an Atoma and a holder. It's really worth it. The Atoma can also be used to flatten your plane soles if needed, and you won't need a strop. That's just my opinion, though.

Oh, and I have some old steel from my planes too, and the Sigmas eat that stuff for breakfast. Seriously quick.

I also use a Lee Valley honing guide on my stones. . .no problem thus far.

[Jim Koepke]

For sharpening it all seems different folks find different solutions that work best for them.

My situation is different from yours which is different from everyone else's.

My shop gets to freezing in the winter. So the water stones are not left soaking during this time of year. There is also a recording thermometer in my shop to let me know the overnight low temps.

For the longest time oil stones didn't seem to work well for me. Then my knowledge of sharping improved. The stones didn't change, my abilities did.

My water stones are an eclectic bunch, King, Norton and a few unknowns. Most of the time I know in advance something will need sharpening when working in the shop. The stones are placed in the water while all that needs to be honed is gathered or in the case of a plane is taken apart. Works for me.

Many water stones are easy to gouge or mess up. This is especially true with carving tools and rounded molding blades. Some of these require a slip stone.

If one is using abrasive sheets, it is easy to make a support of hardwood to match the profiles needed to hone curved blades.

My experience may be different than others. With oil stones it seems one has to really mean it when the blade is pushed into the stone. With water stones, this can be the recipe for damaging the surface of the stone.

For someone just starting at this, a honing guide is great "training wheels." It would have likely saved me a lot of time on the learning curve if I had used one when starting out.

Also, IMO, a 6000 stone will get a blade very sharp. My highest grit stone is an 8000. I am looking forward to the day an even finer stone can be purchased. The sharpness of a blade will determine the amount of control the user can have making cuts and paring wood. A dull blade requires more effort and is likely to slip under the pressure.

My most used stones are 1000, 4000 & 8000 grit water stones followed by stropping. Most of the time my sharpening is done while working. Usually this means taking care to notice when the edge performance is dropping. Done early enough, a few swipes on the strop will allow it to go a bit more. If the edge is restored at first signs of performance loss, then the 8000 may be the only stone needed.

With plane blades it seem the bigger planes get used a lot longer since they are mostly hogging off bigger shavings. Watching the shavings for signs of wear like split shavings or the inability to take very fine shavings will help catch them earlier. Most of the time though the jointer and scrub blades get over used before sharpening and then require starting with the 1000 grit stone.

One thing to think about is purchasing stones wide enough for the widest plane blade you may want to eventually own.

For blades that need coarse work when a grinder isn't available, a coarse abrasive paper adhered to a flat surface such as glass, granite or what is available can make quick work of removing pits and getting a blade in shape to take it to the first stone.

You might be able to change SWMBO's thoughts on sharpening in the kitchen if you keep in neat and keep her kitchen knives very sharp. Just let her know you did the sharpening so she isn't surprised by suddenly sharp cutlery. My wife didn't like the surprise of super sharp knives without a warning.

You may try sharpening all but one she uses regularly. When she comments on this say, "Oh, I must have missed that one. Do you mind if I set up to sharpen in the sink?" You don't know until you ask. Remember, just keep it clean, and maybe hum pleasantly while you wipe down the counters, so she has nothing to complain and something to praise.

In my situation, I seldom sharpen anything in the house other than the kitchen cutlery. This is done with a DMT diamond stone that was epoxied to a piece of hardwood. Sometimes the knives are taken to the shop to get worked on as the diamond stone seems to work best for maintenance or a few swipes before slicing tomatoes.

My set up also has to contend with garden tools and other metal working needs. Over time quite a few different types of stones have been purchased at yard sales and such.

Happy hunting in finding a system that works to your satisfaction.

jtk

[Matthew N. Masail]

I just want to though in my 2 cents, as I am new to this too I have only to share what I find works, starting from course to fine (for plane blades and chisels):

1. as a new sharpener you are going to mess up and round over primary bevels unless you stick to a honing guide at all times. using sandpaper to restore a bevel takes time ! when I had 3 bevel to restore
I and decided it's time for a grinder, I don't have time nor want to spend hours on that. I bought a grinder, a 46grit white wheel and built a tool rest. I have never been happier, a hollow grind is a great thing.

2. I only own 1 combination stone, a 800/4000, and it's not a good one. I don't like honing guides so much unless I need to do a lot of work. for regular sharpening I find free handing much more convenient, and I think it's an important skill to learn.
the 800 or 1000 or 1200 whatever, is a must, gets a burr on the back side in no time. the 4000 brings the blade to usable sharpness, but it's annoying as it leave a decent burr on the back, and lapping the back creates a burr on the bevel, so it's a cat and mouse game to get the blade sharp. I wish I had a finer stone.

3. to go sharper I have the green compound and diamond paste, they work, but I'd much rather have a finer stone, to me it's much nicer to use. the 6000 grit Sigma seems to be fine enough. I plane on buying that set, and if I can afford it I'll get the 13000 too. there is a clear difference between my 4000 and 1 micron diamond paste, and it would be great to have a stone to get edges that fine.

That's my experience anyhow.

[Adrian Ponik]

Thanks for all the responses so far everyone, I appreciate it.

I'm still feeling kind of stuck I guess. I am really hoping to get a setup that will work for me for the long-term and I won't have to be replacing/substituting things a year or two from now, but I also don't feel comfortable spending 300-400 dollars for the set up. I think this is why I was drawn to Stu's "cheaper" 1 and 6k kit and the shaptons, because they are both supposed to be great stones that are within my budget.

Just to respond to a few things, I've already got a bench grinder for doing initial bevels, and I've also got a surface plate that I can use with sand paper for really rough work. So I figure I'm pretty much covered up until the 1k mark, hence why I'm looking at stones starting in that range.

I hadn't really considered oil stones much, and I've read some conflicting things. I know not all are created equal since they are a natural product, but are there some to definitely avoid? I've seen places where you can get a soft and hard Arkansas stone for ~$60 and places where the pair will run you 200. I'm not against oil stones, it just seems like they aren't discussed much, so I guess I naively assumed they weren't as popular/user friendly/good/whatever. If that winds up being my solution that would be fine, I just don't know much about oil stones.

I guess at the end of it all I'm looking for a system I can stick with and kind of grow into, not out of, but that also doesn't break the bank. Thanks!

-Adrian

[Steve Friedman]

I have no idea about oil stones - never even tried them because of all the A-2 steel I have. I love the Sigma set and if you want to use waterstones, I would recommend the cheaper set with a strop after the 6000 stone. Although, many will tell you that you can go straight to work after the 6000, especially if you let it dry out a bit. The 6000 produces a very sharp edge.

The only other thought is to look at the Spyderco ceramics. I have not tried them, but, based on the reviews here from some well-respected users, I think they present a great inexpensive (relatively) option. The only wild card is how much it will cost to get something with which to flatten them, although I don't think they need flattening often.

I think the best course of action is to answer these question in the following order:

1. What do you plan to use to repair damaged edges (stones, grinder, sandpaper, diamond plate)?

2. What are you going to use to establish primary bevels (stones, grinder, sandpaper, diamond plate, diamond paste)?

3. What are you going to use to flatten backs (sandpaper, diamonds plate, diamond paste)?

4. What are you going to use as your final finishing step (stones, strop, film, diamond paste)?

5. What are you going to use for the intermediate steps - to get from the initial bevel to the finish step?

6. If the answer to any of the questions include "stones" in the answer, then you need to decide whether water, oil, or ceramic make the most sense for you. If so, my only suggestion is to choose only one type and use the same think to flatten all of the stones.

As a novice, I find that I get better (more repeatable) results by minimizing the number of times that I switch media. So, decide when you want to cross over from the lower grit work (fixing edges, primary bevels, etc) to stones and then stick with that type (i.e., water, oil, ceramic) for all following steps, finishing with a strop if a high grit stone is not affordable.

I have never really thought about this part before, and it may just be obvious to everyone else, but the final step is the only one that really counts. Everything else is just getting the edge ready for that final step. The scratches that are left by the coarser grits will never touch the wood, so it probably doesn't matter what you use to get there. Personally, I think it's easier to cross over to the stones at a lower grit (I do it at 320 grit), but am certain that the wood is unimpressed.

Good luck

Steve

[Jim Matthews]

Splash and Go - not cheap, but nearly indestructible.

Care and feeding? Wipe with a clean paper towel.

http://www.dmtonlinestore.com/10-DuoSharp-C25.aspx

Watch this - it was an eye-opener for me, after buying a full set of Shaptons...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM

If you strop, as shown, the results are effective.

[seth lowden]

I usually don't reply to advise threads, but I wondered why all the other sharpening media were eliminated from consideration. I am using diamond stones, superfine Spyderco, and strop with Crom-ox powder (not crayon), after getting antsy to get to work. Simichrome works great on a strop also.

[David Weaver]

I would prefer the shapton pros, presuming they are affixed to something. With a grinder, they should take less time and provide a better edge. The only way I'd use sellers' method was if I had a demand that the bevel was convex (like if you intend to use the chisels bevel down all the time). The harder the chisel, the longer the sellers process would take.

[David Weaver]

I usually don't reply to advise threads, but I wondered why all the other sharpening media were eliminated from consideration. I am using diamond stones, superfine Spyderco, and strop with Crom-ox powder (not crayon), after getting antsy to get to work. Simichrome works great on a strop also.

Simichrome and autosol on MDF both work really well to create a keen edge. They do leave a film on a chisel, though, that comes off as black stuff at the edges of a cut.

If a person had a washita (one of the old ones) stone, a grinder, and a piece of MDF with autosol, you could make an edge just as good as any stone that you can use quickly. And similarly fast, as long as the steel is matched to the washita stones.

[paul cottingham]

Before my hands blew up, I used a set bought at LV which consisted of an 800, 4000, and 8000. I rarely used the 800 except to reestablsh a bevel. I started with a combination stone for the honing stones, then treated myself to two separate stones. I think the key for me was a good guide. Even an eclipse would be good, and they are very affordable. You can make an angle setting guide out of scrap, like the one that Lie-Nielsen has a plan for on their website. It doubles as a stone holder, as well.
I also have a grinder for terribly damaged edges.

I got great edges with this simple system.

A very good alternative is a belt grinder, with a leather strop belt. You can get killer edges with that system as well.

[David Keller NC]

I'm still feeling kind of stuck I guess. I am really hoping to get a setup that will work for me for the long-term and I won't have to be replacing/substituting things a year or two from now, but I also don't feel comfortable spending 300-400 dollars for the set up. I think this is why I was drawn to Stu's "cheaper" 1 and 6k kit and the shaptons, because they are both supposed to be great stones that are within my budget.

I wouldn't get "paralysis by analysis" over this decision. Just get what you can afford, and concern yourself with learning to use whatever you've purchased. There's a learning curve to any sharpening media/system, and all of them will produce a razor-sharp edge. The only difference is the drawbacks that each system has, and all of them have drawbacks - perfection cannot be achieved.



Just to respond to a few things, I've already got a bench grinder for doing initial bevels, and I've also got a surface plate that I can use with sand paper for really rough work. So I figure I'm pretty much covered up until the 1k mark, hence why I'm looking at stones starting in that range.

If you have a grinder with an appropriate coarse, cool-grinding wheel and a surface plate, then you're all set. For the initial purchase, I would dispense with the coarse grit stones. Just get a 6000k or 8000k polishing stone, or a black, hard arkansas. You can use the surface plate and some medium-fine sandpaper for the initial back-flattening of the blades, or you could use the polishing stone with the "ruler trick" to establish a narrow line of polished steel on the back of the blade. You do not need a coarse stone for the bevel if you've hollow-ground it. I go directly from the grinder to my Norton 8000k water stone, and the narrow, 1mm wide strip of steel adjacent to the edge (the only part that counts) gets just as mirror-polished as if I'd gone through a progression of grits.



I hadn't really considered oil stones much, and I've read some conflicting things. I know not all are created equal since they are a natural product, but are there some to definitely avoid? I've seen places where you can get a soft and hard Arkansas stone for ~$60 and places where the pair will run you 200. I'm not against oil stones, it just seems like they aren't discussed much, so I guess I naively assumed they weren't as popular/user friendly/good/whatever. If that winds up being my solution that would be fine, I just don't know much about oil stones.

I guess at the end of it all I'm looking for a system I can stick with and kind of grow into, not out of, but that also doesn't break the bank. Thanks!

-Adrian

What I've suggested above should fit neatly within your budget, because with the set up you have, the only thing you require is a fine polishing stone (and perhaps a Norton cool-grinding 46 grit wheel for your grinder - this is important!). The difference in prices you see with Arkansas stones has to do with the size and thickness of the stones, as well as the grading. To get a "premium" grading (and therefore a premium price), a stone has to have virtually no imperfections. That's a visual thing - imperfections will not have any effect on sharpening. I would, btw, recommend getting a hard, black arkansas rather than a hard arkansas as your polishing stone. They are, at least in my experience, a fair bit finer grit than the hard arkansas stones. I don't see much difference on the steel of my carving tools between a hard, black arkansas and a hard, translucent arkansas.

Here is the progression of grits in oilstones, btw: india stones (man-made, in various grits that are coarser than natural stones)>washita natural stone>soft arkansas>hard arkansas>hard, black arkansas>translucent hard arkansas.

Finally, here is an idea for storing waterstones in your shop if that's what you decide to go with: buy a small, fully submersible aquarium heater and a small cooler. The heater will prevent your stones from freezing and breaking, and they can stay in water so they're always ready to use. A bonus is that the aquarium heater will keep the water in the cooler about 60-70 deg F, so you won't be dunking your hand in nearly freezing water.

[Mel Fulks]

You have lots of good technical advise . The stones are a worthy and fascinating hobby and collectible. Where expense is concerned ,the old woodworking books often mention a grinder and soft Arkansas stone as complete equipment ,and if you could afford it a black Arkansas stone as ultimate addition. Where they recommended more stones it was for coarser(usually cheaper ) stuff to use when there was no grinder. IF YOU HAVE GOOD STEEL In the tools you don't have to spend a lot, and if you don't have good tools a collection of equipment won't help.

[Stanley Covington]

My recommendations based on many years of professional experience. This set of stones is the cheapest in the long run and will satisfy all your needs.

Basic information: First, forget Shapton: too little bang for the buck. Big bucks, short lifespan. Tool retailers and magazine writers don't like to hear this, but it is true nonetheless. Second, whenever possible, get two of each grit of stone. Remember, your customer/employer is paying for you to efficiently use your sharp tools, but he is not paying you to sharpen them, much less to flatten your friggin waterstones during the work day. That said, depending on the workload, the quality of the wood, and the amount of dust in the air, you may need to sharpen several times during the day, but if you only have one stone, and the face is too hollow to sharpen properly, you are SOL. Imagine screwing around with glass and sandpaper in front of the customer or your boss or fellow crewmembers. Pitiful. Mickey Mouse. But if you have two stones ready to go each morning, you will probably be able to get through the day without problems. If, heaven forbid, you do need to dress your stones though, rubbing two hollow-faced stones of the same grit together is a cheap and handy way to flatten both stones at the same time. This method works just as well in the shop

Expanding on this idea, one which is not just Japanese, BTW, the best carpenters and tansu makers and sashimonoshi always have at least two jointer planes 長台鉋, jack planes　あらし子鉋 and smoothing planes 仕上げ鉋 sharper than a razor, fettled, and ready to rock and roll before work begins each morning. The same applies to stones. This is a habit that will make your woodworking much more efficient and high-quality.

As for stones, a rough carborundum stone is essential. If you can afford it, and if you like Super-Blue-Paper steel with all that tungsten and vanadium, a rough diamond plate is worth having as well, but is not essential.

Next, you need a 1000 grit waterstone. This is the stone you will use the most (time wise) once you learn how to sharpen efficiently. The Imanishi Bester brand stones are the best made nowadays, especially if you can get two that were cooked at the perimeter of the kiln (versus the center) and so tend to be harder lot by lot. King makes a fine stone, but they are narrower and softer, IMO.

While not absolutely necessary, a 2000 grit stone is useful in reducing the sharpening process and saving your more expensive finishing stones. If weight/space is a concern, they can be left in the shop.

A 6,000 grit finishing stone is mandatory. In fact, most everything but your best planes and chisels can end with this stone.

A 10,000 grit King Goldstone is a must have.

The very highest-quality natural nagura you can get is worth every penny when combined with a Goldstone.

When you get much more experience, a full-size natural finishing stone is heavenly, even orgasmic, but until you have enough experience (and good enough tools) the $400 or $500 for a top-quality natural stone would be a waste. In fact, without years spent on a Goldstone (or equivalent) you would not even be able to choose the right natural stone if a hundred were lined up in front of you. I would be very hesitant to buy one outside of Japan for that matter. A wide selection at hand is important.

A general rule for woodworking tools (not necessarily for knives or swords) is to use the hardest medium stones and finishing stones you can get, because once you have created a paste/slurry, the stone must function as a flat plane for sharpening a straight (vs rounded) edge. A hard stone stays flat longer, of course. However, hard stones tend to clog and "drag" steel deposits, negating the sharpening effect. So a balance of hard/soft is necessary. The steel in your tools will have a say in this too. But better too hard than too soft.

The cheapest and best way to flatten waterstones is so unsexy that amateurs don't typically don't get it. Forget plates and w/d sandpaper and diamond paste and diamond plates. They all work very well, but the cost adds up quickly. Just get a nice thick piece of float glass. 1/2" is perfect, but thinner will do if you have a good backer board. The garbage bin behind a glass shop will have lots of broken pieces you can scrounge for free. Dull the sharp edges with a brick or stone. Scratch the hell out one face of the glass with your carborundum stone. Rub your stones directly on the roughened glass with liberal water. Flat surface. No contaminants. No cost. This is how professionals in Japan, the home of the waterstone, do it.

For what it is worth.

Stan

[Stuart Tierney]

My recommendations based on many years of professional experience. This set of stones is the cheapest in the long run and will satisfy all your needs.

>content removed for brevity<

This is how professionals in Japan, the home of the waterstone, do it.

For what it is worth.

Stan


I don't know where to start with this, and I know it won't end well so I won't even try.

However, I must say this is one of the most disappointing and distressing things I've ever had the misfortune to have read in my life, and very deeply saddens and distresses me both personally and professionally.


Stu.

[Archie England]

Stu, I greatly appreciate that you responded! Especially so that those of us learning the ropes (and hopefully maturing as sharpeners) could have a point of reference.

[Archie England]

Basic information: First, forget Shapton: too little bang for the buck. Big bucks, short lifespan. If, heaven forbid, you do need to dress your stones though, rubbing two hollow-faced stones of the same grit together is a cheap and handy way to flatten both stones at the same time. This method works just as well in the shop

As for stones, a rough carborundum stone is essential.

Next, you need a 1000 grit waterstone. This is the stone you will use the most (time wise) once you learn how to sharpen efficiently. The Imanishi Bester brand stones are the best made nowadays, especially if you can get two that were cooked at the perimeter of the kiln (versus the center) and so tend to be harder lot by lot.While not absolutely necessary, a 2000 grit stone is useful in reducing the sharpening process and saving your more expensive finishing stones.

A 6,000 grit finishing stone is mandatory. In fact, most everything but your best planes and chisels can end with this stone.

A 10,000 grit King Goldstone is a must have.

When you get much more experience, a full-size natural finishing stone is heavenly, even orgasmic, but until you have enough experience (and good enough tools) the $400 or $500 for a top-quality natural stone would be a waste. In fact, without years spent on a Goldstone (or equivalent) you would not even be able to choose the right natural stone if a hundred were lined up in front of you. I would be very hesitant to buy one outside of Japan for that matter. A wide selection at hand is important.

A general rule for woodworking tools (not necessarily for knives or swords) is to use the hardest medium stones and finishing stones you can get, because once you have created a paste/slurry, the stone must function as a flat plane for sharpening a straight (vs rounded) edge. A hard stone stays flat longer, of course. However, hard stones tend to clog and "drag" steel deposits, negating the sharpening effect. So a balance of hard/soft is necessary. The steel in your tools will have a say in this too. But better too hard than too soft.
Stan

Thanks Stan for showing us your line-up: coarse (not a waterstone), 1k, 2k, 6k, and 10k (plus perhaps a 30-40k natural). That's very close to my preference though preferences vary greatly and what works for others, works just as well as what I like. I do disagree with the low grit choice: I much prefer the coarse waterstones--King Deluxe 300 or Sigma Power ceramic 400. Both these stones work marvelously at preparing a blade back. Of the two, the SPceramic is better, and I've heard that Stu's Cerax 320 is a tremedously great stone. Having used sand paper (SS) and oil stones, I definitely prefer the waterstones.

Also, there's a common knowledge amongst the old-timers that it takes three (not two) stones (which don't have to be the same grit) to achieve flatness. Perhaps your skill level enables you to achieve flatness otherwise. Also, many diamond plates (I prefer the iWood or Atoma) deliver superior flattening. The iWood 300 that I use is not that pricey and probably costs less than a 1/2" glass plate. (Thanks for the idea of where to ask for free glass cut offs.) BTW, I'm not necessarily looking for the cheapest way to maintain my investment in waterstones. Great stones deserve a quality maintenance stone.

One last note: From experience, the Bester 1200 is a very good stone but it falls short of either my Chosera 1000 or my Sigma Power ceramic 1000 or 1200. That said, I'd rather have the Bester/Imanashi stones than my old Nortons (which I started with). But even the Nortons were faster than the scary sharp or oil stones. What I've found is this, once you've reached to the 6k and higher ranges, there's less difference/distinction in honing. Others here attest to the superb results of the Shapton Pro 12,000 (BTW, it would have been good to state that you meant the Shapton Glass stones rather than the Pros). I've read on forums that Naniwa superstones work wonders at 8k and above. So for me, our money is spent most wisely below the 6k level--because that's where the real work is done. And that brings me back to an earlier comment--the 1000 grit stone is a most important stone.

Oh, I would contend for the Sigma Power ceramics--400, 1200, 6000, 13000--as the must have stones. (And I regularly use a Chosera 1k, 3k and/or a Gesshin 4k, too. My Bester 1200 is my go-to for knife sharpening.)

YMMV

[David Weaver]

I don't know where to start with this, and I know it won't end well so I won't even try.

However, I must say this is one of the most disappointing and distressing things I've ever had the misfortune to have read in my life, and very deeply saddens and distresses me both personally and professionally.

Stu.

Stu..you're such an emotional guy! :)

[Chris Griggs]

I’m looking at these two sets:
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1668
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shpro2pcset1.html

Stu’s Sigma Power set + shipping would be at just under $200, and if I got the Shapton set I’d have to get a diamond stone to flatten them (or something similar like a lapping plate + loose diamonds) and some kind of stone holder, so it too would get me to right around if not slightly above $200.

So questions:

1) Would the #6000 Sigma Power and #5000 Shapton stones be fine enough for wood working purposes if followed by a strop? I could step up to the “bigger” 3 stone sets, but then we’re in the $300 ballpark I’m trying to avoid.
2) The Shapton stones are really appealing to me due to the splash-and-go nature of them. However, I’ve heard really good things about the Sigma Powers. How long do they really need to soak? Is it a problem for them to completely dry out between uses?


Getting back to your original questions, I think you were on the right track. I would personally recommend the 1K,6K, iWood, sigma set. There are other stones out there in that price range that I like and other slightly more expensive stone that I like a little better (personally and not categorically), but I do not know where else you will find a set that good, with a diamond stone for that price.

As for question 1) Yes the sigma 6k will get you plenty sharp enough - it gets a very fine edge. Straight off the wet stone will be sharp enough for most things, but if you want it sharper you can use the stone dry or go to a strop/MDF/other substrate loaded with green compound. You can buy a higher grit stone later on that will get things a little sharper with a little less effort, but I really don't think you will find that edge straight of the 6k (especially if its dried) lacking in any way.

Question 2) The easiest thing to do is just to leave them in water. If your shop is cold, get some Tupperware/Gladware/whatever and just bring containers in and out of the shop with you. If it really is too inconvenient to leave them soaking, 1-5 minutes of soak is plenty (the 6k can be used with just a splash but works better with a little soak time). Mine both live in water.

I can't speak to the Shaptons, as I haven't used them. Also, I don't have years of professional experience with Japanese woodworkers and/or carpenters. What I am is a consumer on budget, who like you does a bunch of research before I buy, and who sincerely believes that you will not get more for you money than with the Sigma 1k, 6k, iWood set.

[michael osadchuk]

Adrian, as you are on a budget, consider foregoing the pricer Lee Valley honing guide and look at the vise type (also called elipse) honing guide at something like a sixth of the price - which you can also get at LV....

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=60311&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1

as well as at other places, perhaps even at a couple of dollars less.

I have both LV honing guides mk. 1 and mk. 2 yet I often go to elipse style guide which has much to recommend it apart from cost ...... because the roller is much narrow than that on on the LV guide, it is easier to put a significant camber on the blade edge (without having to buy the 'cambered' roller LV sells as an accessory...... I find the elipse style guide holds the blade more securely - less possibly for side to side slippage ........ the vise style is a bit less convenient in that there is no automatic 1 or 2 degree secondary bevel settings (you would have to "measure out" and remember such secondary setting such as deducting a couple of millimeters from the vise grips standard settings)... the vise grip guide doesn't hold blades with tapered sides as well (fortunately almost all blades have parallel sides....... you can marginally improve on the vise grip guides as received by filing away the paint that builds up in the corners where the blades are gripped so the blade seats into the corners better....

Also check out Derek Cohen's inthewoodshop website for his 10 cent honing guide and I recall Lie-Nielsen had a similar shopmade honing guide (or shopmade guide for quickly establishing various honing angles)....

I've have mostly King waterstones, some natural Japanese waterstones, a rough diamond stone to keep them flat and also use the green honing compound (also on a strop for kitchen knives)..... I don't doubt that some of the newer waterstones are better (stay flatter longer, etc.) but what I have will surely outlast me and they do everything I continue aspire to in the way of sharpening honing......

If you want to a little splurge (sp?), LV in their holiday catalog, has a 20-40 times LED illuminated magnifier for $12, which while not a 200-300 x scope, has an exponentially higher power than eye loupes and should show you scratches /corrugations and the degree of remaining jaggedness at the blade edge still remaining after 4000 grit media and thereby raising your sharpening game when you are ready for another uptick....
http://www.leevalley.com/en/gifts/Page.aspx?p=64257&cat=4,53212

good luck

michael

[David Weaver]

I can't speak to the Shaptons, as I haven't used them.

The professional stones certainly aren't short-life stones like they are implied to be above. I think that the finish stone I use the most has lost about a millimeter of its 15 in the last 5 years, and the 1000, which I use the most often of my medium stones has probably lost about the same (it has probably done half the work the 15k stone does, though, because of other 1k stones around to play with).

I know for sure we talk about stones more than professionals do, by a mile, and the professionals we hear from (aside from george and warren mickley, probably) spend their time promoting classes, hard merchandise and videos. They are definitely not where I'd go for advice. I don't know of any professional who does some elaborate run-up through various grits working an entire bevel (or even to work a microbevel), and most of them use one or two stones and a grinder (I think warren is the exception, mentioning that he uses a coarser stone to do a lot of his primary work, but he is working with softer or laminated tools, and most of us are not).

I hope that my comment that I always go back to the shaptons isn't seen as an endorsement that they have something that other stones don't have, or that there is some magic answer about one stone being better than another. They are just my preference (the pros, not the glass, I wouldn't advise anyone to spend money on the glasstones). The only folks who will be so critical about what should be used will be beginners, and maybe carvers who have good reason to favor a very hard stone. I think if I did more woodworking and time was more important, I would favor faster and harder stones (which would mean they would be less fine, there's no free lunch with cutting speed).

I've heard some nutty ideas relayed through someone else about what some japanese traditional woodworkers think, and I wouldn't use their advice for someone in the US or europe who is working wood. Even something so far as professional carpenters claiming that if they used a synthetic stone, they'd have to throw away their (japanese) chisels because they would be ruined. maybe someone on here told me that. A lot of the advice about having those 5 stone run-throughs to sharpen are either for therapeutic use or antiquated advice based on some types of natural stones that can't make large steps.

Decent medium stone, decent fine stone. Doesn't matter what it is, you can learn to use it.

[David Weaver]

I've had mostly King waterstones,..... I don't doubt that some of the newer waterstones are better

I've been through just about every type of stone that can be practically used for woodworking, and I still like the king 8k an awful lot. It seems to have fallen back a little bit in terms of favor here in the US, but it's a nice finishing stone.

[Jim Koepke]

Even something so far as professional carpenters claiming that if they used a synthetic stone, they'd have to throw away their (japanese) chisels because they would be ruined.

I have a special bucket reserved for such tools. Anyone who wants to can ship their tools ruined by using the wrong sharpening system to me. Contact me first and I may even be willing to pay the shipping.

That darned bucket is still empty.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Adrian's post was typical of everyone that has started down the path to becoming a competent woodworker without the guidance of an experienced mentor close at hand. He wants the best results in the shortest amount of time for the least amount of money. As the saying goes, there are many paths to the top of the mountain. My post was simply one path, but one that has been trod by many men with goals similar to Adrian's.

There are always more expensive ways to get things done. Sometimes they are even better. If Adrian has the time and money, then I wish him joy of his experiments with the various stones and sharpening methods. I am not so old I have forgotten how entertaining such things can be. Certainly experimenting with natural finishing stones is great fun, especially where the goal goes beyond sharp and becomes a beautiful blade.

But to be personally offended because I feel that Shapton stones (yes, the glass stones, not the Pro stones) cost more than they are worth says something.

Skill is the most important aspect of sharpening. The newest/fanciest/costliest stones cannot compensate for poor sharpening skills, and good sharpening skills come only through experience. All things equal, for a man with good sharpening skills and a good blade, the stone that matters most is the last one used. Good luck developing your skills, Adrian.

[Stanley Covington]

Archie,

I did mean the carborundum waterstones. They are a pain sometimes because they wear so quickly, but they cut best.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I've been through just about every type of stone that can be practically used for woodworking, and I still like the king 8k an awful lot. It seems to have fallen back a little bit in terms of favor here in the US, but it's a nice finishing stone.

The King 8K is a great stone, just a bit soft and easily damaged. But that can be an advantage too. I still have one I use for gouges since it can be shaped so easily.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

What David Weaver said sums it up perfectly: "Decent medium stone, decent fine stone. Doesn't matter what it is, you can learn to use it." Wisdom indeed.

Over many years, the price of sharpening stones can add up to a lot of money, so why not save the money that might be spent on more expensive intermediate stones to buy better finishing stones and better blades? Over the years I have probably turned 50 1000/1200 grit stones made by various manufacturers, including Mother Nature, into mud. Would the time I spent sharpening over the years been significantly reduced, or would my blades have been sharper, or would my finished products have been better if I had payed more for those intermediate stones? The answer is no, of course not.

Like most young men, when I first started out I was always looking for the best and newest man-made stones in the hope that they would help me be become more skillful at sharpening plane and chisel blades. Of course, the manufacturers always promised that their stones were better and would make me an expert at sharpening. But once my skill reached a certain level, and I was actually able to sharpen quickly and accurately, I learned that what the old boys had mumbled between plane strokes about stones was true: the only stone that really matters is the last one. For someone just starting out like Adrian, I feel his time and money would be expended most efficiently, and his skill level would increase more quickly, by using the simplest and most inexpensive set of decent quality man-made waterstones available. I don't know what the stones I previously recommended cost in the States nowadays, but here in Japan they are significantly less than the Shaptons or other newer brands if one considers the cost per sharpening session. Here in Japan, King and Bester are cheaper and outsell every other brand significantly (for plane and chisel sharpening, not knives), or at least that is what tool retailers here tell me, and I find that Bester intermediate stones stay flatter longer than King brand intermediate stones for my blades. The Shapton Glass stones (I purchased one when they first came out) have been roundly condemned by every craftsman I respect, including professional tool (vs. knife) sharpeners, not because they don't perform, but because they are delicate and cost more per sharpening session than a high-quality natural finishing stone. Sorry if this is offensive to Stu, but we are talking about serious money. :eek:

Simple, economical, fast and sharp are the goals of my sharpening regimen. I didn't invent it, but it works everytime. It is not holy writ, though. For example, when I have a big sharpening session, I will often add extra intermediate stones (300, 1200, 8000) to speed things up and save wear on my finishing stones. But a rough carborundum waterstone followed with 1000, 6000, and 10,000 grit waterstones work almost as well and cost less. BTW, the blade never touches the roughest stone unless it is chipped, and if I have to spend much time on the 1000 grit stone, then I know I have let the blade get too dull before resharpening.

On the other hand, when I want to have fun sharpening, or need an extra-sharp edge, or want to impress someone that can tell the difference, I will pull out one of my natural stones and make the cutting edge a thing of misty beauty. But I doubt Adrian's skills are up to that level yet, and I am certain spending more money on intermediate stones will not help him get there.

For what it is worth

Stan

[Stuart Tierney]

What David Weaver said sums it up perfectly: "Decent medium stone, decent fine stone. Doesn't matter what it is, you can learn to use it." Wisdom indeed.

Over many years, the price of sharpening stones can add up to a lot of money, so why not save the money that might be spent on more expensive intermediate stones to buy better finishing stones and better blades? Over the years I have probably turned 50 1000/1200 grit stones made by various manufacturers, including Mother Nature, into mud. Would the time I spent sharpening over the years been significantly reduced, or would my blades have been sharper, or would my finished products have been better if I had payed more for those intermediate stones? The answer is no, of course not.

Like most young men, when I first started out I was always looking for the best and newest man-made stones in the hope that they would help me be become more skillful at sharpening plane and chisel blades. Of course, the manufacturers always promised that their stones were better and would make me an expert at sharpening. But once my skill reached a certain level, and I was actually able to sharpen quickly and accurately, I learned that what the old boys had mumbled between plane strokes about stones was true: the only stone that really matters is the last one. For someone just starting out like Adrian, I feel his time and money would be expended most efficiently, and his skill level would increase more quickly, by using the simplest and most inexpensive set of decent quality man-made waterstones available. I don't know what the stones I previously recommended cost in the States nowadays, but here in Japan they are significantly less than the Shaptons or other newer brands if one considers the cost per sharpening session. Here in Japan, King and Bester are cheaper and outsell every other brand significantly (for plane and chisel sharpening, not knives), or at least that is what tool retailers here tell me, and I find that Bester intermediate stones stay flatter longer than King brand intermediate stones for my blades. The Shapton Glass stones (I purchased one when they first came out) have been roundly condemned by every craftsman I respect, including professional tool (vs. knife) sharpeners, not because they don't perform, but because they are delicate and cost more per sharpening session than a high-quality natural finishing stone. Sorry if this is offensive to Stu, but we are talking about serious money. :eek:

Simple, economical, fast and sharp are the goals of my sharpening regimen. I didn't invent it, but it works everytime. It is not holy writ, though. For example, when I have a big sharpening session, I will often add extra intermediate stones (300, 1200, 8000) to speed things up and save wear on my finishing stones. But a rough carborundum waterstone followed with 1000, 6000, and 10,000 grit waterstones work almost as well and cost less. BTW, the blade never touches the roughest stone unless it is chipped, and if I have to spend much time on the 1000 grit stone, then I know I have let the blade get too dull before resharpening.

On the other hand, when I want to have fun sharpening, or need an extra-sharp edge, or want to impress someone that can tell the difference, I will pull out one of my natural stones and make the cutting edge a thing of misty beauty. But I doubt Adrian's skills are up to that level yet, and I am certain spending more money on intermediate stones will not help him get there.

For what it is worth

Stan

You keep thinking that calling out Shaptons as 'not good' is upsetting me.


Dave, what do I think of Shapton?


That has nothing to do with my disappointment and dismay...


Stu.

[Archie England]

Stan, I greatly enjoyed reading your reasoned responses. I, too, like more steps (more often) but will sacrifice such steps when actually trying to finish a task. As Chris G can attest, I've got far too many duplicates so that I can continue a task when one tool blade is no longer getting it done. But, that's the benefit (for me) in restoring vintage tools. One day, I'll thin my herd but til then I'll keep restoring old blades. Had it not been for these old blades--and their rough backs--I'd never had a reason to buy waterstones. Grinders and oil stones worked for me, especially the Tormek. Discovering Tormek sharp transformed my sharpening ability; learning to free-hand (and I love my Veritas mk ii jig) made an even bigger transformation. Stu's research on his blog (tools from Japan) introduced me to a world of knowledge (and I like to learn!) and now I've discovered waterstone sharp!!!! Functionally, 6k plus a plain strop to deburr is all I need for even end grain, but when I want better cuts I go onto 13k.

thanks for giving some context to your comments.

AE

[Chris Griggs]

what do I think of Shapton?


One need only Google "Schtoo Shapton" or "Stuart Tierney Shapton" to answer that... This is funny to me, because, being the giant dork that I am, have read a number of threads where Stu rips and gets ripped regarding his less than favorable feelings for Shaptons.

For those who would rather not Google search here is an excellent quote about Stu's feeling about Shaptons

"... just can't "feel the love" for Shapton, even though I own 18 of their stones. Sorry, just can't quite manage it...,"

[David Weaver]

That has nothing to do with my disappointment and dismay...

Stu.

I think it might've been the imanishi more than the shaptons. I know you don't like the shaptons nearly as much as I do, that should sum it up for Stanley.

(I don't like the value proposition of the glasstones, either, only the pro stones).

To answer stan's question about cost, if one looks around, an orange and cream professional shapton can sometimes be found for $150 or so. I paid a little less than that for mine.

A king gold used to be a little less, but the spread between that and the cream shapton for a careful shopper is not too great now. Our inexpensive finish stone is the kityama 8k stone, which can be found sometimes for as low as $60. A bester 1200 and the kityama would make a very capable and fairly inexpensive sharpening setup here, as long as they are purchased from somewhere other than japan woodworker or some of the other retailers that premium price their stuff.

But I like just about anything as long as it's not too soft. Our steels over here have become too mixed up to recommend a hard natural finish stone, though nothing is more satisfying for an experienced user.

[Chris Griggs]

I think it might've been the imanishi more than the shaptons. I know you don't like the shaptons nearly as much as I do, that should sum it up for Stanley.

That and the flattening on a roughed up piece of glass. Not saying it won't work, but Stu in the last year went on a bit of a crusade to get people to start flattening with diamond stones and failing that loose grit on a flat substrate. I think he had a number of ruined stone returned due to flattening on less than ideal mediums.

I still need to try a Shapton one of these days - just for the fun of comparison. Not that I'm going to buy one. Enough people own them that I'm sure I'll find myself in a shop someday where I'll be able to try them out.

[Stanley Covington]

I think I understand Stu's dramatic reaction now.

Diamond plates work great. But they are so expensive and wear out too quickly in my experience. Chris Schwarz has high praise for DMT's DiaFlat product on his PW blog, but at $185, it doesn't make sense to me. I don't like grit on kannaban or other metal plate since the grit can, at least in my experience, imbed and contaminate the stone. Perhaps my methods were not adequate?

Stan

[Stuart Tierney]

I think I understand Stu's dramatic reaction now.

Diamond plates work great. But they are so expensive and wear out too quickly in my experience. Chris Schwarz has high praise for DMT's DiaFlat product on his PW blog, but at $185, it doesn't make sense to me. I don't like grit on kannaban or other metal plate since the grit can, at least in my experience, imbed and contaminate the stone. Perhaps my methods were not adequate?

Stan

I doubt it.

My reaction was not something that can be pinned on a single 'fact'.

(And the word 'fact' is one I use here very, very loosely...)

Stu.

[Stanley Covington]

I doubt it.

My reaction was not something that can be pinned on a single 'fact'.

(And the word 'fact' is one I use here very, very loosely...)

Stu.

" The first reaction to truth is hatred" Tertullian

Stan

[Stuart Tierney]

" The first reaction to truth is hatred" Tertullian

Stan

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan.


Stu.

[Harold Burrell]

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan.


Stu.


" The first reaction to truth is hatred" Tertullian

Stan


"I wish I knew half as much about this subject as either one of you two." Harold Burrell

;)

[paul cottingham]

"I wish I knew half as much about this subject as either one of you two." Harold Burrell

;)
I just spat coffee on my monitor. You, sir, are a funny guy.