New Pine Flooring

[Gregory King]

Our daughter and her hubby want to install pine flooring in the master bedroom of the new home project. They have 3/4" dressed pine by 15" wide and 16' long to work with. No edges have been jointed. He would like to install that way, but I am trying to convince him to at least do the edges in T+G square corners and rip the pieces down the middle, as I am afraid the wide boards may buckle up or down. If their heart is set on maintaining the actual width, I am thinking of using panel adhesive and perhaps 16 guage nails. Does anyone have a similar experience? I will add that they are using a heat pump system to heat the home. My fear is the AC capability in the summer months. Greg

[David Nelson1]

Couple of questions. Has the wood been kiln dried? If not it should be for 2 reasons moisture content and to sterilize the wood. Width 15" wow, ok I would not do that especially if the wood is not jointed but...... you could cut over lapping rabbits. That way the wood will still have the crooked edge but no gaps to the sub flooring. As far as nailing I would screw and plug everything. Is there a subfloor of plywood or open joist? Either way I would pick up every joist, screw it down, and flush cut all the plugs. In a contrasting wood say Walnut plugs or dowels would really be appealing. Are they going to sand and finish or really go for the ole farm house look?

Biggest mistake would be to ignore the moisture content. IMO the rest is up to their taste.

[Gregory King]

Thanks David, I'm giving serious thought now to the over lapping rabbets. Never crossed my mind. Let me back up a bit first. The pine was sawed around the first of May from logs he attained through his workplace. They were stickered out side for 5-6 months. We had a very dry stretch of summer with a good portion of 6 weeks with no rain. As fall approached, his Dad covered up the pile. About mid October, he took the pine to a local sawmill to be planed. They checked the moisture content as soon as it arrived. Lo and behold the readings revealed that it was in the range of 75-80 % dry. I would have bet money that it was destined for their kiln first. Anyway, as soon as they milled it to thickness, we brought it home along with the narrower boards which we are using for interior door frames and trim. This material had at least one edge jointed, so that we could maximize when ripping. The floor joists are the I-truss system covered with 3/4" underlay. I also like your thought on the countersunk screw system as opposed to the brad nail idea. Any movement at all would cause havoc, I'm sure. And construction adhesive? That may be a tad counter productive too. I'm having a hard time to judge how much the whole floor might want to move. Hate to second guess myself later. Greg

[Eric R. Smith]

Greg I would seriosly consider kerfing the back of the flooring( to help with the cupping). I installed some 1-1/4" x 11" pine as a floor in my barn/shop and screwed it to joists 16 oc and it cupped and moves like crazy bit this is a unconditioned space. I used the 1/2" lapped dados which do take care of any gaps that would come from the movement. Ps this wood was air dried for 2 years before I installed it. I hope this helps.
Eric

[Todd Burch]

... Lo and behold the readings revealed that it was in the range of 75-80 % dry. ...

Said the other way, it was 20-25% wet!! Too wet or flooring. If installed wet like that, and nailed or screwed down, I'm pretty sure it will split in the middle during in your low humidity / heated house season. It should dry to EMC and fully stabilize before you use it for flooring. If it were me, after I knew it was "dry", I would use it at full width. I see no reason not to.

Todd

[David Nelson1]

Greg, the wood HAS to have a low moisture content usually between 8-10%. The lower the better. Get a moisture meter and test it yourself. I would also test other wood in the house to get an idea of what the relative humidity is in the house. There are charts that talk to M/C and expansion for different species. Don't rush into this without doing the home work. As far as the crooked edges go I would @ minimum make an attempt to square the boards with a circular saw for installation reasons.

[Art Mulder]

Greg,

Your daughter and son-in-law MUST learn about wood movement before they attempt a project like this. A pine board that wide is going to change in width around 1/4" throughout the year. This will lead to either buckling or huge gaps between boards if they install the wood floors like you mention. (we're not saying that this may happen, we're saying it will happen.)

Next, I strongly urge them to do their research about pine flooring. Pine is a soft wood. No matter the finish they put on it, it will become dinged up and marked much quicker than a hardwood. Some people like that, and love the look. But I really hope they understand that ahead of time.

Finally, I'm really puzzled by their wish to leave the edge of the wood un-jointed. Are we misunderstanding something? You don't mean that they want to leave the natural rough edge on it, do you? That would mean that the edges of the boards aren't even parallel. You can't put something like that down, you'll have gaps measured in inches if you put down boards with wavy edges. Even if the boards were mostly parallel, a rough edge is not going to mate smoothly to the board beside it, and you'll quickly have those cracks packed with crud. Ick.

Best wishes,
...art

[Jason Roehl]

Whatever they do, try your very best to dissuade them from any sort of glue. That way, after they put it down and hate it because of everything Art just stated, at least the wood is more easily salvaged.

[Gregory King]

Gang, I'll add this to the mix. We have been heating the house with a PE efficent wood stove since the fall season approached. Joint-filling dried very well with it. The pine was brought into the home shortly after that stage. And the stove is running daily until such time as the heat pump is operational. Almost there on that front, too. I have reminded the young folks that this floor will be the last to go down, so that the heat system will have some time to remove even more of the remaiming moisture that it may have. In their previous home we installed some T+G pine flooring which they stained and sealed with a few coats of varathane. They do like the "old farmhouse look" that David touched on, and the dents that will occur never seem to break through the staincolor, exposing the natural wood below. I wasn't receptive to installing it in their first home, but I have to admit it grew on me in time, for that very reason. They truly enjoy entertaining, so this house will give them that opportunity. And that's why they insist on keeping the boards in the full width. One of the guys at work suggested screwing only along one edge only. That edge would be the top lap that would have held the previous board down. This would allow the boards to move within the confines of the 3/8" thick x 1/2" tongues that I will router with a mortising router bit. I will true up the board edges to some degree. I don't own a jointer, but with a chalk line and power planer, I can get them fairly decent. And I will trash the idea of construction adhesive, wood is best to move seasonly, I think. The floor will be stained and sealed and the idea of a dark colored plug over the screws impresses me too. But I will have to check that with the new homeowners, first. Appreciate the advice so far, feel free to comment. It won't go down for a while yet anyway. Greg

[Jim Becker]

Wide pine flooring is a traditional standard in many places...including in my home. I'd never rip it narrower! White Pine is better than Yellow Pine for this, but either will work. I did lay a small room this past year without the T&G on the edges, using a few biscuits to help keep it flat, hidden edge nailing and, of course, a flexible adhesive. (I used a low-VOC adhesive because of the danger to our birds from regular construction adhesive) I have no issues with buckling, but there certainly is movement. That's why I painted the subfloor black first, so that when any gaps between boards appear as things shrink in the winter, there is no unsightly "white" lines in the room.

[michael osadchuk]

Gregory,

Ditto on the comments of others about getting a moisture meter to ensure that the pine's moisture content has stabilized to the approxiamate same level (a couple of % points) as wood you know has stabilized in the same setting.

Also do check the moisture content of the underlying wood - that stuff also needs to have dried to whatever the stabilized M.C. is for that setting. (You seem to be aware of the issue of a lot of moisture coming out of newly installed gysum board... the same can apply to the underlayment.)

Princess Auto and Canadian Tire sometimes carry inexpensive moisture meters ..... the ones with idiot lights at each % point and down to 6% seem to be best at the cheapo level.... they can to "off" in their absolute numbers by a couple of points compared to a couple hundred dollar unit but as long as it gives the same appropriate reading (adjusted by species density) as wood you know has stabilized, the reading should be good as to how MC stabilized the wood is for that setting.

Wood plugs.... this is largely an aesthetic issue... you can have contrasting species/colour or the same species...if a contrasting species you may want to use one with approxiamately the same density as the pine so that in any sanding or wear over the years the plugs don't stand proud of pine. If using contrasting species give some thought to whether you want them to line up on sucessive boards or be staggered. You also would need screws/plugs close to the butt edges to keep the butt edges down.
That said, plugging screws is going to be very time consuming. Face nailing is an option.


good luck

michael

[johnny means]

Whatever they do, try your very best to dissuade them from any sort of glue. That way, after they put it down and hate it because of everything Art just stated, at least the wood is more easily salvaged.

LOL:D Just show them this reply and maybe they'll think this through a little more.

[Gregory King]

Michael, your mention of the moisure meter is a guarantee. I will check before the heat pump is operational in about two weeks and again about two weeks after. It will be interesting to see what moisture has been removed simply from running the woodstove through the fall season. I'll check the flooring, wall studs and the pine itself to see how they compare. I'll post the results in hopes that others can benefit as well. I'm also planning to back-prime the pine before we install. the top side will be finished naturally. If both sides are sealed, this should aleviate any movement in the summer when the AC kicks in. Hopefully, anyway. Lots of ideas to consider. Thanks folks, Greg

[Scott T Smith]

Gregory, depending upon which species of pine that is installed and the amount of seasonal changes in relative humidity inside the home, they will probably see gaps open up of approximately 3/16" between the boards.

The actual formula is as follows: Board width x MC% fluctuation (typically around 6%) x species movement value (typically around .0023 for most species of pine).

Thus a 15" board that equalizes to 6%MC in the winter and 12%MC in the summer will move around 3/16" (or .207 to be precise). They really need to understand the MC% of the wood when they install it; if it is close to 6% they may experience some buckling in the summer time if the boards are installed too tightly to one another.

I think that the suggestion regarding using rabbet joints is a good one, and I also like Jim's suggestion regarding the black subfloors.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if the wood is presently flat stacked in the home, and not stickered, the boards in the middle of the pile are not losing much - if any moisture.

Personally, I really like the look of cut nails for installing wide pine flooring. It really provides a nice look when finished.

[Ed Aumiller]

You said you were going to measure MC on studs, joists, etc... you should not use them as reference since it takes years for some things to stabilize.. you need to have the boards at roughly 8% mc or less before using.. they are probably about 12% or more right now...possibly much more

Depending on how the lumber is and has been stacked, you will possibly find a large variation in mc among the different boards..

You can buy a General Moisture Meter at most borg's for about $25 or so.. I have a Delmhorst (Professional one) and when I saw a General at Lowes for $10 had to buy it to compare... it is fairly close to the Delmhorst and accurate enough for home use..

[Jim Andrew]

Putting the flooring in the house where it is to be laid is the right thing to do. Of course the house should be heated with the heater that will be heating the house to make sure it will be dried correctly. In other words, get the heat pump hooked up and run it a few weeks before starting on the floor. The flooring should be stickered so the air can get to all the surfaces. But just a few weeks will make a huge difference in the gaps you get.

[Mark Wooden]

Jim Becker hit the nail on the head (pun intended). Like others have said-

Make sure the MC is 8-10%; you could make a "tube tent" out of polyethylene and use a dehumidifier to help dry the wood. Try to keep it in as small a closed room as possible

Like Jim said, stain the floor dark before you put it down. Stain the tongues, if not the whole back,too

Make sure to offset the rabbet-or T&G- joint you want to make so the thicker part of the lap is up- leaves room for sanding and re-sanding later.

Kerf saw the backs 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" apart, to within 1/16" of the underside of the tongue, it will help greatly with cupping.

I'm in the cut nail camp, I think they definitely add to the hand made appeal of the floor. And don't over nail, the flooring should be able to move. I've never used a bead of adhesive because there was nothing availible that I had confidence in. Today the science of adhesives has advanced greatly, you might want to look around.


Finish with a good, multi coat finish. Use gloss for the first coats as it's the hardest , then scuff sand for the last coat.

A wide board pine floor is truly traditional and beautiful and will be cool because you'e brought it from tree to finished product.

IMO