Water softeners

[Tom Fischer]

Hi all,

In the aftermath of the recent hurricane, had some problems with the water system. Water pump is OK. But the reserve tank ran empty a few times, and sediment got into the small places, faucet screens etc.
Local plumber was here yesterday.
Fixed that stuff.
I do expect more power outages in upcoming years. The trees are much bigger than they were years ago, and just getting bigger.

The plumber recommends
1) sediment filter (sounds like a winner @ $300)
2) water softener. We do have hard water. Some white lime on the faucets.
But expected installed price $1500 + $200 /year for salt seems a lot.
In 10 years cost of the salt is $2K. I can replace all the faucets, valves and water heater for less than that.

Or am I missing something. Soft water is really the way to go, (don't worry about the cost) and I just don't understand.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Mike Henderson]

The salt shouldn't cost that much. The new water softeners are pretty stingy on salt. I only fill mine about twice a year and I have it at a pretty high level.

Mike

[ray hampton]

how many years will the water heater and valves last ?

[Tom Fischer]

how many years will the water heater and valves last ?

Most of the faucets are over 10 years.
Current water heater is 15 years.

[Brian Elfert]

3 bags of salt a month would not be unusual with some types of water softeners with a family. I would highly recommend a softener if you have hard water. If my softener isn't working everything gets covered in iron and mineral deposits.

[Ole Anderson]

I don't like the taste of softened water nor do I like the slimy feeling while showering in completely softened water, but having soft water for the dishwasher is important so I just run the feed to my hot water heater with soft water. That way I get a mix in the shower, I get unsoftened water for drinking cold water from the faucet and I get soft water for the dishwasher. I just need to run the softwater feed to the cold water in the laundry room. At least I have been telling muself that for 25 years. Salt usage is down because only the volume of water run through the water heater is softened. Bonus is that the scale in the water heater is way down.

[Brian Elfert]

My house was plumbed with the kitchen sink cold water, ice maker, and outside faucets all having unsoftened water.

[Lee Schierer]

If you get a softener, make sure the recycle timer works on the number of gallons used instead of how many days between cycles. We changed ours over to a use timer and have been amazed at how much less salt we use, yet when the whole family is home and we use lots of water, we still get soft water.

[Larry Frank]

The amount of salt that you use is a function of your water hardness and water usage. You also need to take into consideration what else is in your water. The softener can remove some iron but you will need to use a salt that will remove the iron oxide from the softener media.

In my case, I have high hardness, high iron and sulfur in the water. I am using a air induction filter before the softener which removes the iron and sulfur and also any sediment. It does not use any chemicals but just uses air to oxidize the iron and sulfur and then the filter takes it out. The system back washes itself every night to get the oxides out.

Before I considered what system to put in, I would get a good chemical analysis of the incoming water so that you know what equipment you need. I do not trust most of the people who sell softeners but I found one that has sold and serviced my equipment for 25 years. It is great find someone that you trust and can help you deal with problems that come up.

[Lee Schierer]

The amount of salt that you use is a function of your water hardness and water usage. You also need to take into consideration what else is in your water. The softener can remove some iron but you will need to use a salt that will remove the iron oxide from the softener media.


True, but some of the recharge timers work on days of use, not how much water was used. The installer determines from a chart how much water a family of a given size uses over what period of time and water hardness then sets the timer to recharge every so many days. That type of timer will recharge the system even if no water is used. We used to go through 50# of salt per month until we got our new timer with a gallon meter. Now it recharges at night after the gallon setting has been used. Our water is more uniformly soft and our salt usage is down to less than 50# every 4-5 months with exactly the same resin bed.

[Brian Elfert]

True, but some of the recharge timers work on days of use, not how much water was used. The installer determines from a chart how much water a family of a given size uses over what period of time and water hardness then sets the timer to recharge every so many days. That type of timer will recharge the system even if no water is used. We used to go through 50# of salt per month until we got our new timer with a gallon meter. Now it recharges at night after the gallon setting has been used. Our water is more uniformly soft and our salt usage is down to less than 50# every 4-5 months with exactly the same resin bed.

I had the same issue with my Water Boss softener. I was going through salt like crazy because it was regenerating I think every three days. I was able to switch to regenerating based on gallons used and my salt usage dropped quite a bit.

[Myk Rian]

Kinetico softeners measure water usage automatically. No need for a timer, or other contraption.

[Ed Aumiller]

Consider installing what you need yourself for WAY less money...

Call http://www.ohiopurewater.com and talk to them, they can recommend what you need.

No affiliation with them, just bought what was needed for my son's house from them...
They advised what we needed and verified it with health dept when had water tested for purity.

And yes, definitely get a system based on water usage, not set timers..

As info, the price estimates from the big name water softener companies were $3000 and up..
Bought & installed it ourselves for less than $800 and works great..

[John Fabre]

Buy a Kinetico and be done, we only use 12 bags of salt a year for a family of five. Only install the water softener on the hot water.


If your water heater is 15 years old, I would replace it soon.

[Curt Harms]

I had the same issue with my Water Boss softener. I was going through salt like crazy because it was regenerating I think every three days. I was able to switch to regenerating based on gallons used and my salt usage dropped quite a bit.

Ours did the same thing. We have to watch after a power interruption. Apparently Water Boss softeners are prone to not retaining its settings after power failure as they age. Ours defaults to regenerate every 96 hours instead of every 400 gallons.

[Brian Elfert]

Ours did the same thing. We have to watch after a power interruption. Apparently Water Boss softeners are prone to not retaining its settings after power failure as they age. Ours defaults to regenerate every 96 hours instead of every 400 gallons.

This was with the default settings from the factory. After going through salt like crazy for a while until I realized what was going on. The little power adapter ended up coming loose from the wall and I didn't realize it for about nine months. The Water Boss didn't work right after that. I had to take apart it and clean it to get it working, but the gallon meter never worked after that so I had to manually start the regen cycle.

I ended up with a Kinetico. I found one on Craigslist for $100. There is a Kinetico dealer literally just down the street who completely tested and rebuilt it for $600. No way was I going to pay $3000 for a new Kinetico. It has been working fine for about 9 months now.

[Matt Meiser]

We have a no-name system put together by a local water company that cost us about $1300. It's timer based. If the price differential is $1700, I'm glad we didn't spend the money on a volume based unit. That's over 280 bags of salt from Costco!

[Brian Elfert]

You certainly don't have to pay $3,000 for a volume based water softener. My $350 Water Boss would do either volume or timer based.

I don't know if Kinetico has patents or what. You would think someone else would copy their system and sell it for less. Kinetico does a ton of advertising. I suspect you're paying as much for advertising and the salesperson's commission as you are for the unit itself.

[David Keller NC]

Tom - your plumber's quote for $1500 sounds like a lot for a water softener. You can get a decent water softener for about $400, here's one:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_04238300000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kispla=04238300000P&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=30-89334023-2

Granted, installation is going to add to the cost, but it shouldn't cost more than about $200-$300 for installation plumbing unless you don't have a basement or suitable crawl space and the installation quote includes running a GFCI circuit to the softener's location.

Just a basic 5 micron sediment filter is dirt cheap - about $50. That would mean you're being quoted $250 for installation, which sounds really, really high.

BTW - if you're going to install a water softener, the sediment filter should go upstream of the softener. If your tap water is full of sediment, you don't that stuff clogging up the resin bed on your softener. Also, if you are on a septic tank, you don't want to run the regeneration drain from the softener into the septic line b/c the salt concentration in the effluent is too much for the biological load in the septic tank. If you run the regeneration drain out into the yard, remember that the salt will kill grass & bushes in close proximity (within a foot or so).

Personally, if your water tastes OK and you don't have issues washing clothes, I'd go spend the $1800 you were quoted on a new tool for the shop (or maybe a chainsaw!)

[Ole Anderson]

I run my recharge into the floor drain which for my house ties into the footing drain. Bacause I am far above the water table, my sump never runs and the footing drains works like a dry well. Installing a water softener is no big deal if you know how to sweat copper. Depending on local codes some of the plastic pipe may offer an easier solution if you and copper don't get along well. My local plumbing retail store sells both the Water Boss cabinet style at around $400 and the larger traditional style at $800-$1200. They claim the cabinet style is basically a 10 year softener while the traditional style more like a 20 year softener. I have the more traditional style and it is 30 years old and still running although is is not a demand style.

[Tom Fischer]

Also, if you are on a septic tank, you don't want to run the regeneration drain from the softener into the septic line b/c the salt concentration in the effluent is too much for the biological load in the septic tank. If you run the regeneration drain out into the yard, remember that the salt will kill grass & bushes in close proximity (within a foot or so).

Personally, if your water tastes OK and you don't have issues washing clothes, I'd go spend the $1800 you were quoted on a new tool for the shop (or maybe a chainsaw!)

Yes, we have a septic system, and I had not thought about that at all. Could be a huge issue. I don't even let my wife put Clorox in the washing machine, fear of upsetting the septic tank. Many folks don't appreciate how expensive these systems have become, especially if you have to go through the formal permitting process (such as, trying to sell the house). Major repairs on a septic system are gigantic, compared to the cost of replacing some calcium-stained faucets and toilet tank valves. I have heard of people spending $70K on septic systems in NJ, once the state Dept of Environmental Protection gets involved.

I think I need to call the local septic guy, see what he thinks about water softeners.

And no way I am putting a dedicated drain in the house for a water softener. Cut the slab? forget it.

[Jerome Stanek]

Our backwash for our system is not to go into the septic system according to code.

[Tom Fischer]

Hi Jerome,

Are you saying that your local building code does not permit the water softener to empty into your septic tank?
I am just trying to get a measure of how "skilled" my plumber really is, regardless of how long he has been doing it.
He never mentioned any controversy about this.

[Ed Aumiller]

The salt will make havoc with your septic.... The solids will require pumping much more often also... NEVER back-flush in a septic system...
You don't have to cut a hole in the slab... run a drain pipe out a side wall near the floor, you don't have to worry about it freezing normally..

[Curt Harms]

This was with the default settings from the factory. After going through salt like crazy for a while until I realized what was going on. The little power adapter ended up coming loose from the wall and I didn't realize it for about nine months. The Water Boss didn't work right after that. I had to take apart it and clean it to get it working, but the gallon meter never worked after that so I had to manually start the regen cycle.

I ended up with a Kinetico. I found one on Craigslist for $100. There is a Kinetico dealer literally just down the street who completely tested and rebuilt it for $600. No way was I going to pay $3000 for a new Kinetico. It has been working fine for about 9 months now.

Nice price on the Kinetico. We had a problem with our water boss. The system to refresh the brine reservoir stuck open, thank goodness there's a float based backup. It gave us salty drinking water though which is how I discovered the failure. I was able to repair the problem with plumber's silicone grease and learned a lot about the water boss system in the process. I don't see how the water boss could operate without power, there's a little geared electric motor turning a cam that is the primary means to recharge the brine supply. The thing is really stone simple but there's a little impeller that works like a monopole. If that impeller sticks the usage counter will not work. When I called about the problem they sent me a spare impeller so I suspect this is a common failure. The other thing I found interesting is that all the operating parts are some form of hard plastic but there are no gaskets at the joints. It's all flat plastic to flat plastic and no hint of leaks.

[Dick Strauss]

Definitely check online if you are handy. A friend had quotes of about $2k to replace an existing water softener that was on its last legs. He bought his new system with higher resin capacity and reverse osmosis (plus an extra pressure tank for the RO run) online for about $800 including shipping. This inlcuded all of the tubing, fittings, etc and the new softener came pre-programmed (based on his water sample test results). He just had to connect it and connect the power. The system he bought bases its cycle on volume of water not time so he saves a lot on salt.

[David Keller NC]

This is something I sent to Tom in a private message explaining what the issue is with septic tanks & water softener regeneration brine discharge. I'm excerpting here in case it is useful to someone else:

Here's the skinny on water softener regeneration effluent and septic systems: it depends. It depends on how many people you have in your household (and thus the input flow of wastewater to the tank), how hard your water is (and therefore how much concentrated brine is sent to the tank), and how well your septic field lines drain (faster drainage tends to lead to lower water levels in the tank, so the brine input has a bigger effect).

The specific problem with water softener brine regeneration effluent in a septic tank is that it can (possibly) drastically raise the salt content of the water that the decay organisms live in, and kill a lot of them off. If that happens, it's possible that your septic system won't completely digest the human and household waste that goes into it, and you wind up with raw sewage going out to your field lines. Most field lines aren't buried too deeply, so there's a chance of having raw sewage on the surface, particularly if you live in a rocky area where the soil doesn't drain very quickly.

[Brian Elfert]

Nice price on the Kinetico. We had a problem with our water boss. The system to refresh the brine reservoir stuck open, thank goodness there's a float based backup. It gave us salty drinking water though which is how I discovered the failure. I was able to repair the problem with plumber's silicone grease and learned a lot about the water boss system in the process. I don't see how the water boss could operate without power, there's a little geared electric motor turning a cam that is the primary means to recharge the brine supply. The thing is really stone simple but there's a little impeller that works like a monopole. If that impeller sticks the usage counter will not work. When I called about the problem they sent me a spare impeller so I suspect this is a common failure. The other thing I found interesting is that all the operating parts are some form of hard plastic but there are no gaskets at the joints. It's all flat plastic to flat plastic and no hint of leaks.

My Water Boss was not running without power. It sat without power for about 9 months and when I discovered it had become unplugged it would not regenerate after I plugged it in. Water Boss customer service had me take it apart and clean it. Regeneration worked after that, but it still doesn't count gallons used. I'm wondering if it is worth trying to fix the impeller now to sell it? I would have no way to test it if I did try to fix it.

[Tom Fischer]

This is something I sent to Tom in a private message explaining what the issue is with septic tanks & water softener regeneration brine discharge. I'm excerpting here in case it is useful to someone else:

Here's the skinny on water softener regeneration effluent and septic systems: it depends. It depends on how many people you have in your household (and thus the input flow of wastewater to the tank), how hard your water is (and therefore how much concentrated brine is sent to the tank), and how well your septic field lines drain (faster drainage tends to lead to lower water levels in the tank, so the brine input has a bigger effect).

The specific problem with water softener brine regeneration effluent in a septic tank is that it can (possibly) drastically raise the salt content of the water that the decay organisms live in, and kill a lot of them off. If that happens, it's possible that your septic system won't completely digest the human and household waste that goes into it, and you wind up with raw sewage going out to your field lines. Most field lines aren't buried too deeply, so there's a chance of having raw sewage on the surface, particularly if you live in a rocky area where the soil doesn't drain very quickly.

Great stuff.
And David Keller tells me (PM) that he has a doctorate in Chem Eng. Although is employed in Pharmaceuticals, he has serious subject matter expertise.
Thanks David.

[Jerome Stanek]

Hi Jerome,

Are you saying that your local building code does not permit the water softener to empty into your septic tank?
I am just trying to get a measure of how "skilled" my plumber really is, regardless of how long he has been doing it.
He never mentioned any controversy about this.


Yes that is what our code says you can not back flush into the septic system

[Curt Harms]

My Water Boss was not running without power. It sat without power for about 9 months and when I discovered it had become unplugged it would not regenerate after I plugged it in. Water Boss customer service had me take it apart and clean it. Regeneration worked after that, but it still doesn't count gallons used. I'm wondering if it is worth trying to fix the impeller now to sell it? I would have no way to test it if I did try to fix it.

Ah, that makes sense. The usage meter is just a little plastic turbine that sits in the incoming flow. There is a little permanent magnet attached to one side of the turbine. As the turbine spins, there is a sensor that 'sees' the magnet going by and registers usage. I can think of 3 failures 1) the turbine is not turning with water flowing through it 2) the little magnet on the turbine has been lost 3) the sensing circuitry has failed. #1 & #2 are pretty easy and inexpensive to fix #3 I have no idea. There may be a way to check function without water flowing through but I don't know it.

[Myk Rian]

9 months and you didn't notice it? Are you sure you really need it?

[Brian Elfert]

9 months and you didn't notice it? Are you sure you really need it?

Yes, I need it. I didn't have a water softener for a year or so after the house was built. I actually had at least one faucet cartridge clog up with minerals that first year. The inside of my toilet tank is dark from all the minerals and iron. I don't know why it took me so long to notice the problem. The water softener will of course work for a time without regeneration.

[Bill Cunningham]

The section of town I live it is on a lake based water system. The water is *s o f t* We never get a mineral deposit in, or on anything. I have one of those water filter bottle replacement units for our watercooler which the manufacturer . say must be replaced every 6 months or when it slows down. Ours lasts 2 years between replacements. The only thing it has to remove is chlorine, which presents another problem. We have just had sewers installed so we no longer have this problem, but a lot of the town is still on septic. The town chlorinates the water, and then hundreds of houses have chlorinated water running through their septic system. This 'can't' be good.. In a few years we will be moving to a rural region, on a well and septic (just the same as our current location was 45 years ago) Then, I guess it will be a water softener for us too..

[Ole Anderson]

The town chlorinates the water, and then hundreds of houses have chlorinated water running through their septic system. This 'can't' be good.

With the exception of a few community water systems fed by wells and otherwise untreated, virtually all municipal (city) water distributions systems are treated with chlorine or otherwise disinfected to prevent the spread of waterborne diseases. Chlorine is by far the most common method of disinfection used as it is relatively inexpensive and has proven safe in over a hundred years use in pubic water supplies. Fear not. If you wish to remove chlorine in your water, a charcoal filter is the method of choice.

[Jerome Stanek]

I have been chlorinating my water for 40 years with no problem with my septic system

[Bill Cunningham]

I have been chlorinating my water for 40 years with no problem with my septic system

You would think that Chlorine in the septic system would eventually shut down the bacterial action. After all, that's why they put it in the water in the first place. However, if you have a whole house water filter system, after the chlorinator the charcoal 'should' remove it and keep you and your septic system safe I guess.. Now that we're on sewers, the only chlorine removal we need is in the water cooler filter that just looks like the regular 20 liter water water bottle that sits on top..

[Ed Aumiller]

Limited amounts of chlorine in the water will not harm your septic system, otherwise every-time your whites ran thru the washer with bleach, it would affect your system. Yes, if you would pour a gallon or two of clorox down your drain, it MAY cause your septic tank to hiccup, but most chlorine will evaporate before any harm is done... especially when on public water systems (with VERY low amounts of chlorine) and using a septic system.. that is why you can smell the chlorine in the water..it is evaporating..