My second-to-last workbench - top DF vs. poplar

[Victor Robinson]

My first workbench has served me well but I have outgrown it. It is a 60" x 36" salvaged Ikea butcherblock (Beech) top on a 2x4-constructed base, with a tool cabinet underneath. However, it is time to upgrade. The main problems with the existing bench are:

1) The top isn't thick enough (~1-1/8") for hand tool work. It bounces too much and doesn't feel solid. Forget about chopping on it.
2) The top isn't and doesn't stay flat, making it useless as a reference or assembly surface. Though I've handplaned it flat several times, it goes out again within a month or so.

I've been reading bench books, drooling over bench hardware, planning a "real" workbench build for a while now. But I also came to the realization that building "the final" heirloom $$$ bench isn't in the cards right now for a number of reasons. Financially difficult, but perhaps even more importantly, a few space constraints that would require design compromises I'm not willing to make on my "final" bench. For example, my workbench is also my tablesaw's outfeed, and that's not changing while I'm in this space. And while we'll be here for a few more years at least, there's a good chance we'll be in a different home in 5-10 years. One with a larger shop space and where I'll feel more at ease about designing and undertaking building the bench I've been dreaming about.

This means that for my "second-to-last" workbench, I'm going to try to keep costs to a minimum while still getting a workbench "build" experience. The design will be a standard modern classic - front and twin end vises, probably 60" x 30" x 3.5-4" top, recycling the tool cabinet for underneath. But the priorities this time are a dead-flat, thick wood top, and making it look a bit nicer than the one I have (e.g. dovetailed end caps). I'll re-do the base simply because it's ugly (I didn't have any milling equipment when I made it).

All this brings me to my choice for top material: Doug Fir vs. poplar. I've read several threads about using DF for workbench tops via careful selection of material, either 4x4 or 2x12. Alternatively, I can get properly milled FAS 8/4 poplar at around $2.30/bdft (in contrast other acceptable woods such as soft maple would be around $4/bdft and probably push my wood costs further than I'm willing for "2nd-to-last" bench). Both woods are a little softer than ideal, getting easily dented/scratched, but I like the way poplar machines and works a little better. The greenish hue isn't my favorite for looks. The DF would be cheaper probably, but board selection would be time-consuming, lots of waste, and it may be hard to get perfectly dry material, resulting in continuous movement over time. Regardless of which wood I'd use for the bulk of the top, I'd use something harder for end caps, and edges.

Thoughts?

[John Fleming]

The "not so big bench" I've seen in Fine Woodworking mag. They are doing a video series about the build on their website.

[Victor Robinson]

Heya John - I've been watching Ed's videos. He's putting together a nice little bench. Actually his construction methods for the base and drawer cabinet are based exactly on an earlier FWW article/plan for the Essential Workbench (Lon Schleining), but with a smaller top and lacking the twin screw vise. That's exactly the design I'm going for (The Essential, not the smaller version), but just wondering if I can get away with using a softer, cheaper wood for the top, and whether poplar or Doug fir would be better.

[Richard Coers]

I suspect you can get better douglas fir in your locale than I can. Around here, it's over 19% moisture and still moves around for a while. I would never use 4x4's because they will be more likely to be wet in the middle, and check/move around as drying. I made my top from #2 common 4/4 stock (walnut actually), 2 1/2" thick. Ripping the strips oversize, and then rotating them up for lamination. I didn't have that much stock to laminate since I put a tool tray in the back, and different laminations in the front for bench dogs and end vise. My rim around the bench is from 8/4 red oak, 3 1/2" thick. Made the bench in 1985, and it's served me very well. The only change I would make is that I made doors for the base storeage. Wished I would have put in drawers. Still time to do that I guess, retirement starts next year.

[Victor Robinson]

I suspect you can get better douglas fir in your locale than I can. Around here, it's over 19% moisture and still moves around for a while. I would never use 4x4's because they will be more likely to be wet in the middle, and check/move around as drying. I made my top from #2 common 4/4 stock (walnut actually), 2 1/2" thick. Ripping the strips oversize, and then rotating them up for lamination. I didn't have that much stock to laminate since I put a tool tray in the back, and different laminations in the front for bench dogs and end vise. My rim around the bench is from 8/4 red oak, 3 1/2" thick. Made the bench in 1985, and it's served me very well. The only change I would make is that I made doors for the base storeage. Wished I would have put in drawers. Still time to do that I guess, retirement starts next year.

Thanks, Richard. So I guess I should be looking for a somewhat dry supply of 2x12s. I've not seen kiln-dried anything bigger than 2x4s at the big box stores. I suppose if I find relatively clear, tight grained green boards I should bring them home and let them dry for a few months? The FAS poplar starts looking pretty tempting at a certain point. Any thoughts on DF vs. poplar?

So we'll see which happens first - you get your drawers or I get my "second-to-last" bench done. :D

[David Kumm]

Dry is better here. The stiffness of DF isn't too important on a short bench and both are softer than what you will be setting on it. It might take longer than a few months to dry 19% framing lumber down to 10-12% which is high as I would go. Dave

[Victor Robinson]

Dry is better here. The stiffness of DF isn't too important on a short bench and both are softer than what you will be setting on it. It might take longer than a few months to dry 19% framing lumber down to 10-12% which is high as I would go. Dave

Good info. I'd be ready to build in late spring/early summer, if not sooner. Definitely don't want to wait much longer than that.

So what's the downside to poplar then? Just the lightness? I'm going for a top that's ~3.5" thick all the way through so perhaps that would compensate for poplar's lower weight. Seems like the construction lumber isn't going to be THAT much cheaper when the waste is factored in.

[David Kumm]

If you are suing stretchers the only downside might be the dog holes loosening up but that is pretty nit picky. If you are anal about that you could use a harder wood in that area. 3.5" isn't likely to cause splitting if you pick the wood correctly for the alternate species. Dave

[Chris Fite]

I built my previous workbench out of Douglas Fir, 2x4. I picked the ones I wanted and laminated them with through all-thread. The damage that occurred to the top was never a problem for me. Once planed flat, it stayed that way.

I kept it waxed so that spills did not accumulate. It was sturdy for whatever pounding, clamping, or other abuse came its way.

Unfortunately, we had to make a low-budget move; and I gave it to a new woodworker. I could not justify the expense of moving and storing it.

I was satisfied with the Douglas Fir. I have another workbench on the horizon, so local wood will be a focus of interest along with the Jack-Bench adjustable bench idea.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm not a fan of either of those woods for a bench top as they are relatively soft. Maybe soft maple could be a good substitute, pretty hard and fairly inexpensive.....in my area anyway. If you call around sometimes you can even find deals on shorts or stuff that's just not very pretty to look at. Construction lumber is very wet and I wouldn't want that either. Wood moves when it dries so you may end up with some headaches when that lumber slowly dries out!

Alternatively if your on a really tight budget but have time and a planer there is another option. How about collecting old pallets for free and tearing them apart? They're generally made out of hardwoods like maple or oak. You could plane both faces and glue the pieces up face to face bowling alley style. It would be a good amount of effort and wouldn't look very pretty.....but may not be all that crazy :confused:

good luck,
JeffD

[Victor Robinson]

Thanks Jeff. Yeah, I know...not ideal woods at all, but as I mentioned, this isn't the dream bench so I won't be shelling out $4+/bdft for soft maple, beech, ash, etc. Definitely on the next one, but not this one. That's why the budget is tightened - I need something better than my current benchtop but not ready for the big plunge just yet. Unfortunately I'd be looking at a step down in terms of softness of wood (currently beech), but the thickness and flatness of the bench will be so much nicer.

Ok, now this pallet thing, Jeff. I don't know where all you guys live (well, I do know...in all the places where wood is cheap and plenty!!), but in my neck of the woods, I have never ever ever seen a pallet made out of any decent wood. It's always bandsawn 2x4s or pine. I've received probably ~15 pallets over the last several years from various vendors and never, ever, ever was there a hardwood involved. Am I just unlucky? :(



I'm not a fan of either of those woods for a bench top as they are relatively soft. Maybe soft maple could be a good substitute, pretty hard and fairly inexpensive.....in my area anyway. If you call around sometimes you can even find deals on shorts or stuff that's just not very pretty to look at. Construction lumber is very wet and I wouldn't want that either. Wood moves when it dries so you may end up with some headaches when that lumber slowly dries out!

Alternatively if your on a really tight budget but have time and a planer there is another option. How about collecting old pallets for free and tearing them apart? They're generally made out of hardwoods like maple or oak. You could plane both faces and glue the pieces up face to face bowling alley style. It would be a good amount of effort and wouldn't look very pretty.....but may not be all that crazy :confused:

good luck,
JeffD

[Chris Padilla]

Build your top with "2x4s" and make the actual top replaceable...like a piece of hardboard or melamine or MDF...perhaps with formica laminated.

[Kurt Cady]

Borg lumber, even when wasting the center 3" of a 2x12 is well under a $1/bf. Can't beat it. In ATL we have SYP. Look for "premium" label. The stamp on the lumber will likey have "KD" which mean kiln dried. Could be 19% but likely will be less

[jim gossage]

How about ash? It is fairly hard, straight grained, and can be had for $2-3/ bf.

[Paul Saffold]

Victor,
Just a few comments. Poplar may be green when you mill it, but as it ages it will turn a nondescript brown. I'd rather have a bench get dented than whatever project I'm working on getting dented. So softish wood is OK with me. I bought DF 4x4 at the borgs. I have 5 within a 20 mile radius and would check each as I was in their area. It worked out all right but I wish I had been a little more selective. I didn't have a moisture meter at the time so I weighed each 4x4 when I brought it home then again every week or so. Some of them were actually pretty dry when I bought them. But then I bought them in late December. They had probably been in the stores for awhile. A store with faster turnover means fresher, and therefore wetter stock. All of my stock had reached a steady weight by 10 weeks in my semi-heated basement (50-60 deg in winter). You need to decide what you want in a workbench, not what someone else says you should have. There have been quite a few absolutely beautiful workbenches built by members here. On the other hand, perfectly functional benches can be made without the beautiful woods and meticulous joinery. Whatever you build, have fun doing it and post a few pictures. We all like the pictures.
Paul

[Stephen Cherry]

Craigslist materials. Some reclaimed lumber will pop up, if you have a little time.

[Jeff Duncan]

I guess area makes a big difference....around here pallets are almost always hardwoods. Before I went into business for myself I would try to think up ways I could utilize them as there are several places that used to stack them up for free! Oh and I only recommended soft maple as it is not much more $$ than poplar around here. On a larger order, (500 bd. ft.) I even got it cheaper than poplar once!

I think I'd call around a few lumber places and see if they have any bargains on shorts or stained material. Since it's not "THE" bench....a little ugly won't hurt:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Salomon]

Well, I guess this a bit of a contrarian view. I'd wouldn't hesitate to use poplar over borg lumber. First, it's dry and stable so you'll save yourself all of the hassle of drying borg wood and dealing with wood movement. This is a big deal. Second, it's easy to find clear poplar so you won't have to work around knots. Your bench should be built with the care that goes into a piece of fine furniture--do you really want to use borg wood for fine furniture? Yeah, I know, beautiful and functional benches have been built out of borg wood but you'll save yourself a lot of grief if you use properly dried lumber. Yes, it's light--so make the bench bigger and hang your c lamps from the side rails. Yes, it's soft--so round over the front edge and use your burnisher to further compress the fibers. I built mine out of 8/4 poplar a couple of years ago and have never looked back. I like the fact that it's a bit softer--won't tend to damage your project and easier to replane the top if/when that needs to be done.

[Victor Robinson]

Borg lumber, even when wasting the center 3" of a 2x12 is well under a $1/bf. Can't beat it. In ATL we have SYP. Look for "premium" label. The stamp on the lumber will likey have "KD" which mean kiln dried. Could be 19% but likely will be less

Yes Kurt, in ATL you do have SYP. Grrr. :cool: It's true though if BORG lumber can be made to work it's a good deal. When you happen to find a nice straight batch, it feels like a steal.


How about ash? It is fairly hard, straight grained, and can be had for $2-3/ bf.

I'd be fine with ash. It's about ~3.60 in my area, which is a little more than I'd like to spend on the bench this go-around.


Victor,
Just a few comments. Poplar may be green when you mill it, but as it ages it will turn a nondescript brown. I'd rather have a bench get dented than whatever project I'm working on getting dented. So softish wood is OK with me. I bought DF 4x4 at the borgs. I have 5 within a 20 mile radius and would check each as I was in their area. It worked out all right but I wish I had been a little more selective. I didn't have a moisture meter at the time so I weighed each 4x4 when I brought it home then again every week or so. Some of them were actually pretty dry when I bought them. But then I bought them in late December. They had probably been in the stores for awhile. A store with faster turnover means fresher, and therefore wetter stock. All of my stock had reached a steady weight by 10 weeks in my semi-heated basement (50-60 deg in winter). You need to decide what you want in a workbench, not what someone else says you should have. There have been quite a few absolutely beautiful workbenches built by members here. On the other hand, perfectly functional benches can be made without the beautiful woods and meticulous joinery. Whatever you build, have fun doing it and post a few pictures. We all like the pictures.
Paul

I've seen a fair number of people who went the 4x4 DF route. Looking at some photos on another forum, it seems like the 4x4s people were getting at the BORG were very straight and tight-grained and very clear. Just need to look and see what the pickin's are like.

[Victor Robinson]

Since it's not "THE" bench....a little ugly won't hurt:D


Oh sure, not only does it have to be soft, now you want to make it ugly too?


Well, I guess this a bit of a contrarian view. I'd wouldn't hesitate to use poplar over borg lumber. First, it's dry and stable so you'll save yourself all of the hassle of drying borg wood and dealing with wood movement. This is a big deal. Second, it's easy to find clear poplar so you won't have to work around knots. Your bench should be built with the care that goes into a piece of fine furniture--do you really want to use borg wood for fine furniture? Yeah, I know, beautiful and functional benches have been built out of borg wood but you'll save yourself a lot of grief if you use properly dried lumber. Yes, it's light--so make the bench bigger and hang your c lamps from the side rails. Yes, it's soft--so round over the front edge and use your burnisher to further compress the fibers. I built mine out of 8/4 poplar a couple of years ago and have never looked back. I like the fact that it's a bit softer--won't tend to damage your project and easier to replane the top if/when that needs to be done.

Finally poplar gets back into the game with a score. Certainly agree with all points regarding the hassles of borg lumber. However, DF is a superior bench wood compared to poplar based on hardness, stiffness, and weight. I'm reading that off a chart - I don't know exactly what those quantitative differences translate to in real world. I piddled around in the shop banging on poplar and DF scraps gouging them in various ways and for the life of me couldn't make out a difference. I just know I like planing and machining poplar much more than DF. Got any pics of your poplar bench?

[Victor Robinson]

Would treatment of the [soft] top with a light oil/varnish blend add some hardness/durability?

[Kevin Bourque]

If you are gluing the wood up then you don't need the highest quality wood. I'll bet you can find some knotty ash, oak, or hickory pretty cheap.

[Ryan Mooney]

If you are gluing the wood up then you don't need the highest quality wood. I'll bet you can find some knotty ash, oak, or hickory pretty cheap.

I'd vote soft over knotty personally (assuming you didn't mean to cut out the knots an re-glue up around them..). The hardness variation on knotty wood (especially with wood that varies a LOT in density on the knots vs the not knots like DF) make it a bear to get flat/smooth (and the knots chip out more, etc..). I speak having made that mistake :D

[Carl Beckett]

But if you are careful, you dont have to have the knots at the surface. They can be embedded below the top and thus never really come into play.

I am a fan of using lumber otherwise destined for firewood. Look on CL (searchtempest.com) in your area and see what comes up. I just picked up some old white oak beams that were about $0.25 per bf. They arent perfect by any means, but would still make a benchtop acceptable for pounding on.

[Larry Whitlow]

Victor, because this is a temporary bench/outfeed table until you relocate in a few years, why not build the top out of layers of MDF? You could use hardwood ply of your choice for the top layer if you want to look at woodgrain instead of MDF. Use hardwood to band the edges and you can still do your dovetail end caps if you want. You would have a flat, heavy top. It can be as thick as you want it. It would be relatively inexpensive. You can still add a vise(s), etc. It should serve you well for the few years until you relocate. I suggest not attempting to glue the layers together. Instead, use screws from the bottom. That way you can replace the top if needed.

Take care.

Larry

[Victor Robinson]

Victor, because this is a temporary bench/outfeed table until you relocate in a few years, why not build the top out of layers of MDF? You could use hardwood ply of your choice for the top layer if you want to look at woodgrain instead of MDF. Use hardwood to band the edges and you can still do your dovetail end caps if you want. You would have a flat, heavy top. It can be as thick as you want it. It would be relatively inexpensive. You can still add a vise(s), etc. It should serve you well for the few years until you relocate. I suggest not attempting to glue the layers together. Instead, use screws from the bottom. That way you can replace the top if needed.

Take care.

Larry

Thanks Larry...it's definitely a thought. Part of me still wants as much of a "real" bench as possible. I think some of that is probably a bit of the neanderthal bug taking over. Pretty soon I'll be peeling potatoes with sharpened rocks.

The main reason I wouldn't do MDF for this bench top is that it's hard to flatten if it goes out of flat. I made a tilt-top assembly table, and the top for that was double-layer MDF edged with hardwood (though it was glued). It started out dead flat and then eventually developed some out-of-flat areas (a little over 1/32" over 3 feet) that I can't do much about. One attraction of a wood top is being able to flatten it. I also like the idea of going through as much of a traditional bench build as possible so as to practice my hand tool skills with larger-scale joinery and flattening/smoothing.

But that all being said, the MDF/ply approach is worth considering.

[Mark Salomon]

I'll refer to the FAQ and figure out how to post a pic since it's been awhile and try to get a picture posted in the next couple of days.

[Victor Robinson]

I'll refer to the FAQ and figure out how to post a pic since it's been awhile and try to get a picture posted in the next couple of days.

Much appreciated, Mark! I'm sure I'm not the only one who would enjoy seeing it. :)

[Mark Salomon]

4 in poplar top, poplar legs and rails, african mahogany chops and lower shelf, sliding deadmen out of padauk. Quick release vises, planing stop on left end. Close to 300lb with all of the clamps hanging on the side rails. Works great. Base is a flip up/down sled with UHMW sleds to make it easier to drag around. I now like the higher height with the sleds in the down position even for planing--this thing is so heavy I can plane without flipping the sleds out of the way. I probably wouldn't be able to pull this out from the wall without the UHMW sleds because of the weight. The bench is slightly over 5 feet long and only about 18 inches deep--I like to be able to plane from both sides so it's easy to walk around. For some rather illogical reason I tend to plane at the left end of the bench (which is why you see the panel being planed being held at the left end).
246081

[Victor Robinson]

4 in poplar top, poplar legs and rails, african mahogany chops and lower shelf, sliding deadmen out of padauk. Quick release vises, planing stop on left end. Close to 300lb with all of the clamps hanging on the side rails. Works great. Base is a flip up/down sled with UHMW sleds to make it easier to drag around. I now like the higher height with the sleds in the down position even for planing--this thing is so heavy I can plane without flipping the sleds out of the way. I probably wouldn't be able to pull this out from the wall without the UHMW sleds because of the weight. The bench is slightly over 5 feet long and only about 18 inches deep--I like to be able to plane from both sides so it's easy to walk around. For some rather illogical reason I tend to plane at the left end of the bench (which is why you see the panel being planed being held at the left end).
246081

Great looking bench, thanks for posting the pics! How has it held up? Major dings/dents? Do you ever regret not making it out of a slightly harder wood?

It sounds like with a thick top, the weight isn't an issue at all. And I'd have a cabinet under mine, so that would also add to the weight.

I think it will come down to what I find. The 8/4 FAS poplar I can get I know is good stuff. But if I find decent DF 4x4s or 2x12s that aren't too wet, I'll go that route and save on the top for now.

[jim gossage]

I'd be fine with ash. It's about ~3.60 in my area, which is a little more than I'd like to spend on the bench this go-around
.
You can get a great deal on ash at walllumber.com, $2.60/bf for 4/4, 2.95 for 8/4 and 1.75 for 1C. They always ship excellent pieces and you can even talk to the owner Steve about what you want.

[Mark Salomon]

I made my son-in-law a similarly sized bench--poplar base with a hard maple top. I prefer the poplar top but I'm careful to only use it for woodworking(and not things like pounding on a paint can that won't open or a frozen bolt on a starter motor!). So it's held up just fine and I have no regrets. My son-in-law's bench was also made to do double duty as an outfeed table so it's on very heavy duty casters--really easy to move around but not quite as rock solid for hand planing (which he doesn't do)

[Larry Whitlow]

Thanks Larry...it's definitely a thought. Part of me still wants as much of a "real" bench as possible. I think some of that is probably a bit of the neanderthal bug taking over. Pretty soon I'll be peeling potatoes with sharpened rocks.

The main reason I wouldn't do MDF for this bench top is that it's hard to flatten if it goes out of flat. I made a tilt-top assembly table, and the top for that was double-layer MDF edged with hardwood (though it was glued). It started out dead flat and then eventually developed some out-of-flat areas (a little over 1/32" over 3 feet) that I can't do much about. One attraction of a wood top is being able to flatten it. I also like the idea of going through as much of a traditional bench build as possible so as to practice my hand tool skills with larger-scale joinery and flattening/smoothing.

But that all being said, the MDF/ply approach is worth considering.

Yep. One, if not the major, downside to using sheetgoods is you don't get the satisfaction of building the traditional benchtop. Have fun. Larry

[Lee Ludden]

When I was out in Pasadena for the Woodworking in America show last month, I took one of Chris Schwartz's classes on building a saw bench. In his casual remarks, he mentioned that he had purchased the lumber for the demonstration at a local Lowes and how lucky we west coast people were to have 4x8 DF boards available at the BORG and that three of them would be about all it took to build a pretty nice bench.

I expect if you picked up a few of those with the grain running vertical (quartersaw), and jointed them 4 square and glued them into a top, it would be just fine. You might want to cut it a bit long and put something on the end grain to help prevent checking. That is actually what I plan on doing after I finish some of my Christmas projects.