Do I need a shoulder plane?

[Christian Thompson]

I'm trying to cut some secret miter dovetails and ran into some issues last night cutting the cross grain rabbets to start the joint. I have a stanley 78 and which worked fine on my attempts in pine. Last night I tried with african mahogany, though, and stuggled - even with a freshly sharpened blade. I ended up with something reasonable, but it took a really long time for how small this piece is.

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I've read that the 78 isn't great for hardwood and my experience last night seems to agree with that. I had a really hard time getting the blade adjusted correctly - I was either getting too thick of a cut or none at all. I also think the width of the plane made it unstable on such a tiny surface. Do you guys agree with the idea that a 78 isn't great for something like this? I don't want to buy another tool if this one can be fixed with practice or tuning.

Ian Kirby in his book "The Complete Dovetail" suggests using a shoulder plane to cut the rabbet. Unfortunately he doesn't give any other advice other than to helpfully suggest that a shoulder plane "makes quick work" of the rabbet :-). How would you cut this without a fence? My thought is that you start cutting down in one direction until you hit the scribe line at the bottom, but stay off the scribe line to the side. Then flip the plane 90 degrees and plane to the other scribe line. Does this sound right?

Thanks,
Christian

[Bruce Haugen]

Take a look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwzeONtOAFg&feature=BFa&list=WL5D8A2859F0DDF1DD&index=3), at about 4:10 to see how a master does it. BTW, also note how much attention he pays to laying out his dovetails.

[Christian Thompson]

Take a look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwzeONtOAFg&feature=BFa&list=WL5D8A2859F0DDF1DD&index=3), at about 4:10 to see how a master does it. BTW, also note how much attention he pays to laying out his dovetails.

Yeah. I've seen that one. My plane definitely doesn't sound like his does :). I guess the LV skew rabbet plane is another option that would probably work a bit better for something like this. I was amazed to see him cutting the dovetails without sawing - sure was quick, though!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Are all the pieces your planning going to be that small? I'd simply saw the majority of the waste out, and then put a chisel in my mark gauge line and quickly pare to the line. If the grain was amenable, I'd even go with one sawcut and split the rest of the waste out with a chisel. Think about which surfaces need to show, as well, and focus on making those exact. No excuse for sloppy work, but concetrate on which shows.

Also, are you work across the grain, or along the end grain? Across the grain is obviously going to be easier to plane, (but requires a plane with a nicker or frequent marking to prevent spelch) but may be difficult with such a narrow rabbet.

I like my wooden moving filletster plane for this work, but still clean up some with a chisel

[Bruce Haugen]

I was amazed to see him cutting the dovetails without sawing - sure was quick, though!

I suspect he's been at it longer than most of us. IIRC, he's been designated one of Japan's living treasures, kinda on the same level as George.

BTW, I think a LV medium shoulder plane would work just peachy. Just clamp a fence on the wood you're cutting and plane to that.

[Christian Thompson]

Are all the pieces your planning going to be that small? I'd simply saw the majority of the waste out, and then put a chisel in my mark gauge line and quickly pare to the line. If the grain was amenable, I'd even go with one sawcut and split the rest of the waste out with a chisel. Think about which surfaces need to show, as well, and focus on making those exact. No excuse for sloppy work, but concetrate on which shows.

They aren't going to be that small - that was a scrap that I figured I'd practice on. The real pieces will be about 6 inches wide. I was just thinking that the wood being so narrow probably contributed to the instability of the plane. I think even with 6" sawing is still an option.

The grain definitely doesn't seem to be amenable to splitting cleanly. I cut the pins on the other piece and expected to be able to pop out chips as I went down. It was more like chunks here and there. The grain reverses direction a lot...



Also, are you work across the grain, or along the end grain? Across the grain is obviously going to be easier to plane, (but requires a plane with a nicker or frequent marking to prevent spelch) but may be difficult with such a narrow rabbet.


It didn't even occur to me to go across the grain at first since it was so narrow. So the result shown in the picture was going along the end grain. Later I tried across the grain, but I wasn't even able to get a good result in pine with the fence set that narrow.

[Christian Thompson]

I suspect he's been at it longer than most of us. IIRC, he's been designated one of Japan's living treasures, kinda on the same level as George.

BTW, I think a LV medium shoulder plane would work just peachy. Just clamp a fence on the wood you're cutting and plane to that.

Indeed. I'm definitely in no danger of being designated a living treasure :). Good suggestion on clamping on a wooden fence. Seems so obvious in hindsight... :).

Thanks,
Christian

[Archie England]

My shoulder plane is most handy to have around, despite the fact that it's not my first plane to go to. That said, what's up with this "need" comment? :) Happy Thanksgivings to all!

[Christian Thompson]

My shoulder plane is most handy to have around, despite the fact that it's not my first plane to go to. That said, what's up with this "need" comment? :) Happy Thanksgivings to all!

Well... I guess when I said "need" I was subconsciously hoping you guys would let me know exactly how much I need one. And then I could dutifully pass that information along to the Boss :-).

[Zach Dillinger]

I use a shoulder plane quite often, and not just for tenon work. It is my go-to plane for cleaning up rabbets, both with and against the grain. I've used it for cutting portions of moldings. I lust for an infill rebate plane to take over these duties, but I haven't found one yet, so my large LN will have to do.

[jamie shard]

I just recently bought a large LN as a reward for myself and I'm using it quite a bit, including for trimming miters, tenons, etc. So yes, you need the plane!

(Hope that helped!

[Jim Koepke]

Later I tried across the grain, but I wasn't even able to get a good result in pine with the fence set that narrow.

Pine can be misleading. It is soft, but sometimes that makes it more difficult to actually sheer the fibers cleanly.

You may be able to try out a shoulder plane at a LN tool event. There was one last weekend in Philadelphia. I don't know if others are closer too you.

For this kind of work I am not sure a shoulder plane would be the best tool. My tendency would be saws and chisels to produce such a rabbets.

jtk

[paul cottingham]

Of course you do. It's a new tool isn't it? What kind of question is that?

For the record it's one of those tools that you don't use all the time, but when you need it, it is indispensable. I have a 3/4 and a borrowed 1". If I were to do it again, I would have bought the 1".
I would give up a lot of tools before I would part with my shoulder plane.

[Tom Blank]

I don't NEED a beer, I deserve a beer.

I think the same applies to shoulder planes and other hand tools. 8^)

[Jim Matthews]

You can limit the cut with a backer board and batten (which must be straight).

If your 78 is sharp enough to cut endgrain pine, no tear out, it should be sharp enough for mahogany.
If it's just slow going, can you saw well enough to cut out the rabbet to near the score line?

I never plane what I can saw.

Lastly, I recommend using a sacrificial piece at the "far" side of your endgrain work to reduce blow out (spelching).
I don't like the word "spelching" it sounds like someone made an inadvertent noise during a spelling contest.

I use a shooting board, which has a built in sacrificial stop that reduces blow out.
I also chamfer the exit end, after setting my score line.

Our very own Derek Cohen was kind enough to demonstrate the method I follow.
It should be applicable to your project, as well.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 .html

http://www.hntgordon.com.au/planingendgrain.htm

[Christian Thompson]

If your 78 is sharp enough to cut endgrain pine, no tear out, it should be sharp enough for mahogany.
If it's just slow going, can you saw well enough to cut out the rabbet to near the score line?

When I actually got a cut, it was cutting nice thin sheets of end grain, so I agree that sharpness wasn't the biggest issue. My biggest problem was the plane skipping and jumping and setting the depth of cut correctly. Pine seems a little more forgiving if I take too big of a cut. The depth adjusting lever is harder for me to finely control than a screw so I was either taking too much or none at all. I also think the really short piece I was working on was making things a little unstable.

So far spelching (I agree that word sounds nasty :-) hasn't been a huge problem. I've just been knifing the line on the back side a bit deeper and the blow out stops at the line. Chamfering seems like a good idea to reduce the risk even more. It does get a little finicky for the last few passes. Maybe I can clamp a piece to the back. I can't visualize how I would use a shooting board with this kind of rabbet. It would be nice to have one of those donkey's ear shooting boards for the small miter. The few resources I've seen on cutting these mitered dovetails say to just do it free hand (shoulder plane or chisel), but seems like that would take the margin of error out.

The more I think about it the more it seems like I should be sawing out most of the waste. It still would be nice to have the shoulder plane with the fine adjustment and the lower cutting angle to clean up at the end. I've got LV's in my shopping cart. Just need to pull the trigger :-).

Thanks,
Christian

[Todd Hyman]

Yes you need a shoulder plane! Its one of those tools that when you need it, nothing else will do.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

It would be nice to have one of those donkey's ear shooting boards for the small miter. The few resources I've seen on cutting these mitered dovetails say to just do it free hand (shoulder plane or chisel), but seems like that would take the margin of error out.

I've never done these style of dovetails, so maybe I'm off, but it seems like you've got a few important show surfaces - the mitre at the top and (and bottom, I suppose) of the joint, where you want the two pieces to match up well, and then the "tip" of the "ramp" formed by the mitre, running along the length of the joitn, where you want things to pull together tight.

I don't imagine the tiny mitre is giving you any strength, (that comes from the tails) and doubt it could easily be glued together, (two mostly endgrain surfaces) and with such a small surface, I'm not sure it's going to move much on it's own (i.e., if a gap starts opening there, I would look at the dovetails first - I don't think that tiny mitre is long enough to bow away on it's own.)

So it seems like if you were cutting it with a chisel or a plane, the first little bit at either end of the mitre you would want perfect; you're close to the marking line, so this should be easier, and you can always drop the chisel in a knifed line and pare that bit perfect as well. Along the length of the mitre, you just want the "tips" to mate up. If things get a little undercut (turns into more of a knife-edge) in the middle, that's not going to hurt. You could be fairly imperfect if you're imperfect in the wrong way and it's going to look fine.

Edit: because my rambling doesn't make sense -

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My understanding of the joint would be the parts coloured in blue are going to be the parts that show or contribute to the show. The long blue areas could even be less. The red colored area could be undercut and the joint would still show nice. I don't think trying to be super accurate with a shooting board for making this mitre is worth the extra effort; I'm not sure it would gain you anything.

[Christian Thompson]

I agree with all this and also started to think you would need a really thin plane (like 1/8") in order to use the donkey's ear since the plane would have to fit in under the hidden dovetails. The only problem with undercutting is that I am making a box and am planning to saw apart the lid and base after glue up. So I'm going to have kind of a weird looking glue line at the corners inside the box when it is open. The undercut would show in that case. I'm hoping with a few more practice joints I can get it fitting well enough and will try not to worry too much about small gaps.

[Christian Thompson]

Ok. Done. I just ordered the LV medium shoulder plane. I like the low bed angle and precision depth adjuster. I think with a combination of sawing out most of the waste and then trimming with the shoulder plane this task will be a lot easier.

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement!

Christian

BTW, I just told the wife and apparently this is my Christmas present and she is now ordering a spa package for herself. I still think it was worth it :).

[David Keller NC]

Christian - Looks like I was a little too late chiming in on this thread, but I think what you're encountering wasn't the type of plane that you had (moving fillister vs. shoulder plane), it was the make of plane that you had. Stanley made some fine tools, but it's important to remember that their primary professional market were carpenters and finish carpenters, not necessarily cabinetmakers. In Stanely's zenith in the 1920's, very, very little furniture was made by hand in this country (US).

For a carpenter or finish carpenter, being able to make ultra-fine adjustments to a joinery plane to achieve very high precision wasn't an issue - it was about hogging off a lot of wood in a hurry on the non-show surface to get the piece to fit into its place in a kitchen.

A Lie-Nielsen or Lee-Valley moving fillister (I'm counting L-N & LV's skew block planes here, not just LV's moving fillister) has far, far more precise depth-of-cut adjustments than any antique Stanley, and those antique Stanleys from the 1920's have far more precise adjustment mechanisms than Stanleys from the later part of the 20th century (1960's and later).

All that said, you're going to find the most salient piece of advice on this thread is: "don't cut end grain with a plane unless there's no other way". Yes, you can certainly cut end grain with a high degree of control with a shoulder plane, but it still isn't going to be easy.