Max size shaper cutter and head

[David Scheckman]

Hi, I'm interested in opinions on the maximum size, both diameter and height for a molding head to run on my 3hp delta shaper. I use a 1hp powermatic feeder. I have both 3/4" and 1 1/4" spindles. I understand that the 1 1/4" spindle is pushing the limits of the shaper and use it carefully with reasonable sized cutters. Our shop is small pro-shop, building cabinets, furniture and supporting our contracting business. I'm a very experienced woodworker but have limited experience with molding oriented work. I've generally used the shaper for cabinet doors and very simple edges, chamfers and corner rounding. I'm interested in both corrugated back style heads and Euro block style. In the case of Euro block whether steel or aluminum is appropriate. Careful setup is a given. I'm not interested in upgrading to a more powerful shaper at this time. Thanks for opinions and advice.
David

[Stephen Cherry]

Hi, I'm interested in opinions on the maximum size, both diameter and height for a molding head to run on my 3hp delta shaper. I use a 1hp powermatic feeder. I have both 3/4" and 1 1/4" spindles. I understand that the 1 1/4" spindle is pushing the limits of the shaper and use it carefully with reasonable sized cutters. Our shop is small pro-shop, building cabinets, furniture and supporting our contracting business. I'm a very experienced woodworker but have limited experience with molding oriented work. I've generally used the shaper for cabinet doors and very simple edges, chamfers and corner rounding. I'm interested in both corrugated back style heads and Euro block style. In the case of Euro block whether steel or aluminum is appropriate. Careful setup is a given. I'm not interested in upgrading to a more powerful shaper at this time. Thanks for opinions and advice.
David

Single speed, two speed? Are you sure it's not a 3/4 and 1 inch spindle? About the size of a unisaw?

I've used my delta hd shaper with a 1 inch spindle with a 2" corrugated cutter and it seemed OK. The thing to remember is the bearings are small on the delta HD shapers, so you don't want to push it. Although you don't want to upgrade, you may want to start scanning craigslist, auctionzip, etc to see what the market is. I bought my scmi t110 for not much more than a few nice cutters. Also, these machines are "money in the bank", more or less. If you get a good deal, it holds it's value better than beer and lottery tickets. Anyway, if you start looking, when you are ready, you will know a good deal when you see it.

[David Scheckman]

Two speed , Definitely 1 1/4" spindle. Yes, Unisaw size. Roughly 1990's vintage (new by my standards). Newer fence style. I know ultimately upgrading could be the best route, but in the meantime I want to explore the full capabilities of this machine. Thanks,
David

[Stephen Cherry]

Two speed , Definitely 1 1/4" spindle. Yes, Unisaw size. Roughly 1990's vintage (new by my standards). Newer fence style. I know ultimately upgrading could be the best route, but in the meantime I want to explore the full capabilities of this machine. Thanks,
David

I'm not sure how the bearings in this machine relate to the normal hd cartridge. Richard at a and e tool would know all about your machine. The big plus though is that 1 1/4 tooling could be carried over.

[Peter Quinn]

From my experience with that machine, a 2" molding head maybe 4" diameter is about the biggest things its going to push effectively and is where you will have the most success. You might squeeze out a 3" molding using multiple passes, the motor is not going to want to do it in a single pass without chatter, neither is the quill assembly. They just aren't rigid enough for bigger work, unless you like sanding a lot and replacing bearings frequently. So a decent panel mold or base cap is your upper limit single pass. If you set up for a multi pass approach, you could probably pull off a 4" crown on one of those, but its painfully slow, not my first choice for a commercial venture. For things like base cap, panel mold, coves, cove and bead, etc, its a fine little molder.

On the euro block, either aluminum or steel is fine. I've always used aluminum in my home shop, it was easier to spin on the delta HD 3HP I started on, less mass to overcome. Aluminum is plenty strong enough for molding heads, but it may not survive a multi person shop if some of the guys are rough on tools. If this were an industrial situation with long production runs that go on for days, I'd say steel is a no brainer. So judge your help, will they beat up the aluminum, torque the snot out of the set screws, run stock into the head by setting the fence too far back or other bone head moves? If so, go steel. If not, aluminum is cheaper and starts a little easier on a smaller machine. I have been using a handful of aluminum heads for years, I bought one second hand from a guy that had used it for years in a two man shop, no problems. Others complain they don't last, but I'd guess not much does in those shops!

[Glenn Ancona]

David

I would caution against anything of size on that machine and heres why. With a 90's era Delta, owned soley by us and similar feeder we had a small corrugated byrd cutter head and were running some very basic profiles - nothing outragous in size or in depth. After some consultation from tooling makers and other woodworkers I thought the machine was up to the task. We are as easy on equipment as anyone can be in a 2 man shop with complete respect the machinery and its tooling. We had ran several trims and profiles and the machine appeared to be well suited for the tasks. One day we had a small trim run we started mid morning and broke for lunch. Upon re start as it was coming up to speed, half of shaft along with the head and the bearings broke loose from the machine housing !!! I just about crapped my pants as I couldnt get to the floor fast enough. It destroyed the head the cutters and feeder rollers. Delta , who was contacted immediatly asked " was anyone injured ? " They were VERY quick to bring a new replacement machine and have me sign off on this. To be honest the new shaper never came in the shop and was sold as my trust in their machinery was gone from that point forward. IMO Stick to the smaller stuff or get a larger machine - just my .02.

Glenn

[Mel Fulks]

Once someone is hurt they are concerned. Look in the machine manuals for all the brands .Do you see any directions as to the proper way to change the spindles? I have seen them unwind while running in clockwise mode and I have seen them stuck so that a machinist had to be called in. I had been working 25 years or more before I ever used a machine of that type. I did it wrong. I often see set ups with the cutter head at the top of the spindle when it is not necessary ,think of the extra stress that adds . It is possible that over time something like that contributed to that failure. All employees should be told use no unnecessary spacers under the head.Printed USE THIS MACHINE CAREFULLY ! Warnings are not instructions.T

[roger watson]

Hi, I'm interested in opinions on the maximum size, both diameter and height for a molding head to run on my 3hp delta shaper. I use a 1hp powermatic feeder. I have both 3/4" and 1 1/4" spindles. I understand that the 1 1/4" spindle is pushing the limits of the shaper and use it carefully with reasonable sized cutters. Our shop is small pro-shop, building cabinets, furniture and supporting our contracting business. I'm a very experienced woodworker but have limited experience with molding oriented work. I've generally used the shaper for cabinet doors and very simple edges, chamfers and corner rounding. I'm interested in both corrugated back style heads and Euro block style. In the case of Euro block whether steel or aluminum is appropriate. Careful setup is a given. I'm not interested in upgrading to a more powerful shaper at this time. Thanks for opinions and advice.
David
that shaper was designed to run small cutters such as an ogee or a finger pull on 3/4 " cabinet doors anything larger tears out the bearings or tends to have a lot of vibration.

[Chris Fournier]

I would look to Delta for this answer. It will be in the manuals.

[Mel Fulks]

I do not agree that a machine with a factory supplied 1 1/4 inch spindle is intended only for the small cuts you have described. Why would they provide it when the cuts you mention could be made with a spindle as small as 3/4 ? The machines are not over built but using them the way I described significantly reduces the stress on them. How many of the wood turners use their lathes with the tailstock spindle fully extended when there is no reason to do so? The bigger concern is that we have reached a point in the legal system where manufacturers are told by their lawyers that they are better off providing less instruction and more warnings. That advice is given because an argument would otherwise be made that poor wording

[Mel Fulks]

......caused the injured person to do something dangerous. Having problems with computor,sorry

[Chris Fournier]

Again I would get the dope from Delta on your machine but I can tell you that my SCM 410 Elite S has a 1 1/4" spindle and a 6.6 hp motor. I have one 2" tall by 6" diameter rebate head that weighs 13 pounds and both SCM and the cutter manufacturer, in this case Royce Carbide specify how to use the tools they have built. The larger the diameter of cutterhead the better the quality of the cut due to the entrance and exit geometries. I buy the largest cutters that I can, not the smallest.

The shaper is one tool where people's decisions and opinions seem to be driven by fear. As Mel has pointed out, when the set up is fundamentally correct the machine is a stable shop partner. I have watched too many operators set up an operation for a one pass to size/finished profile cut when multiple passes would have yielded superior quality and safety. All of our machines are truly limited by our understanding and mastery of them. Software limitations more than hardware!

[David Scheckman]

This is all very interesting. I've found very little to no information from Delta. I've read through the manual and get basically no guidance. There's a list of Delta 3 wing cutters available. Basically that's it. I think if I had it to do over again I might have held out for something with more capability but living in a rural area, not having the availability of 3 phase, or much of a choice of machines, and most of all not being willing to take the time from actual work to seek out, find, travel to pick up and then to set up, wire etc, lead me to take the easy way out and get the machine I could find used at a decent price locally. Still, its brought me into the world of shapers and power feeders, which I've enjoyed. Thanks for all the responses.
David

[Stephen Cherry]

Glenn's story of catastrophic failure is very scary. It would be very interesting to know exactly what happened. It sounds to me, taking a guess, that the drive pulley nut, and the drive pulley came off of the spindle cartridge. Mine are torqued, with a clip to capture the nut- not that easy to just come apart, unless it's just not on right to begin with.

That said, the delta hd machine had a track record of 50 years of widespread use, and is not known for this sort of thing.

[Glenn Ancona]

No one got hurt it just scared the crap out of me and yes it was a failure to say the least!
I agree Delta is not known for that kind of thing - I think its partly why they set a new machine out so quick. The casting that holds the spindle and bearings in the machine were cracked. Did it let the spindle go or did the spindle break it when it broke - hard to see at 5k rpms what broke what ! The drive pully and lower assembly was in tact as I rememember. Delta, Bryd and the knife cutter supplier said we were operating well inside of their guide lines and I'm sure there are not many of these cases.
I am the shop owner and set up all the machines and never once have I set up tooling at the top of the spindle - that sounds unstable at best.
I grew up in a shop in which old Rockwell / Delta was the norm - the newer Delta's of late appear to be as Peter said a fine little molder but I would leave it at that. Its in my opinion that its suited for light duty between Rodger and Mels view. Its certainly more than door pulls but no way a machine that should be spinning a corrugated head or Euro size tooling as David is asking.
As was the case that day I still use a piece of ply as a additional safty fence in front of me. Any place there is exposure between the feeder or guard and myself I still want an additional saftey. As is Chris, we are spinning plenty of capacity and HP with a 7 hp Martin and I'm even more carefull now than ever giving it as all of our tools plenty of respect. Shapers are great tools - still my favorite in the shop.

[Mel Fulks]

Just want to add that what I said about info being held back in favor of warnings was told to me in a phone conversation by the owner of a well known company. I think the lack of detail on spindle changing is particularly bad. A taper driven in too far by improper use could easily cause extreme over torquing in an effort to remove it.

[Peter Quinn]

In Glenn's last post he made reference to "euro sized" tooling. For clarity I wanted to explain that when I described a "euro block" I was specifically referring to an 88mm x 40mm insert head that takes a standard set of insert molding knives held in with a fixed pin and gib system. Mine is an Amana profile pro set, but lots of people make these and the knives are mostly interchangeable. The 4mm thickness of the steel inserts limits the depth of profile to around 5/8" which is a pretty comfortable range for a delta 3hp. I would certainly warn against using Euro tooling in general on this machine, most of it is too large and too heavy to be used safely on this build level. For instance I have a Lueco rebate head, 50mm X 180mm that weights nearly 10# and takes out a 2 1/4" x 1/2" rabbit in a single pass for entry door jambs, but I never spun that on the delta! The hole in the table gives some indication of the size of tooling the engineers intended, though that is a pretty loose rule of thumb.

[Charles Brown]

Hi, I'm interested in opinions on the maximum size, both diameter and height for a molding head to run on my 3hp delta shaper. I use a 1hp powermatic feeder. I have both 3/4" and 1 1/4" spindles. I understand that the 1 1/4" spindle is pushing the limits of the shaper and use it carefully with reasonable sized cutters. Our shop is small pro-shop, building cabinets, furniture and supporting our contracting business. I'm a very experienced woodworker but have limited experience with molding oriented work. I've generally used the shaper for cabinet doors and very simple edges, chamfers and corner rounding. I'm interested in both corrugated back style heads and Euro block style. In the case of Euro block whether steel or aluminum is appropriate. Careful setup is a given. I'm not interested in upgrading to a more powerful shaper at this time. Thanks for opinions and advice.
David

David, you'll get lots of opinions on this. Here's mine. I have used a 3HP delta shaper to make just about anything that requires a edge / face moulding. We even pushed it by only using the 3/4" spindle because we couldn't find the 1" spindle that went with it. I/we buy corrugated backed knives from Schmidt and the general advice I've received from them is 1" of moulding head for each 1 HP the machine is rated. Obviously there are depth of cut issues with the larger profiles that may require multiple passes but I've run 2-knife, 3" corrugated mouding heads without problem on that exact machine with the same sized feeder and have had better than adequate results. I think with the knives, the 3" corrugated heads are roughly 4" in diameter. Maybe a bit larger.

The euro block heads are great. But I haven't been able to source anyone to make custom knives. It's just as easy to call up CGG Schmidt and have them grind a profile if they don't have anything like that in stock. But, obviously, the euro block heads are not as tall as the moulding heads and are limiting in that respect.

[Jeff Duncan]

Well looks like I'm late to the party but the other guys have given great advice. I agree with keeping heads fairly short on the Delta shapers, the bearings and quill assembly are pretty small and really are not up to the task of tall heads. I also agree that 1-1/4" is a large spindle for that sized shaper. My feeling is that they offered it b/c guys wanted it, not b/c the machine was originally designed for it... since it wasn't! I believe the 1-1/4" spindle is a fairly recent accessory for these machines and also IIRC is NOT interchangeable, so no concerns with seating the taper.

Another issue that I didn't see addressed was speed. You don't want to run large diameter heads on these machines as they usually have only one or two speeds. If I remember correctly the slower speed is still up around 8k rpm's....too fast for large diameter heads. I run my larger panel raising head at 4500 rpm's. They really were originally designed for smaller cutters and once you start seeing what constitutes an industrial machine you can see the differences.

I'm also a fan of the Euro block heads. They are very inexpensive and if you buy a set you'll have a lot of flexibility for running different profiles. You can also buy blanks for short money and b/c they are much thinner than corrugated you can quite easily grind them yourself. Just have to have a decent scale to keep them balanced. A 2" corrugated head is also within the machines capabilities and adds even more capability for running custom stuff. Once you pass the 2" sized heads your on your own though. You may be able to run a 3" or even a 4" head, but your going to want to think carefully about how much stock your trying to remove and in what kind of material. I've told the story several times of how I killed the bearings in my Powermatic 27 running a 4" head making custom door jambs in hardwoods. The machine was a bit heavier than the Delta and it also produced a decent quality of cut...at least until the bearings started going south. I long ago sold both the smaller machines but I can say personally I would not feel real comfortable running that 4" head on the Delta.

So in short use your best judgement. Running a really shallow profile in a soft wood that's 4" tall may be fine....trying to do a deeper profile or on a harder wood, not so much. Remember that at the end of the day the shaper can cause a LOT of damage if not respected so be safe;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

David said in his initial post he had two spindles for the shaper. How can they not be interchangeable? What am I missing here?

[Stephen Cherry]

David said in his initial post he had two spindles for the shaper. How can they not be interchangeable? What am I missing here?


This class of machines was offered with a 1" non-interchangable spindle cartridge, which is somewhat sought after because it eliminates one of the weak points of the machine- the relatively small interface between spindle and bearing cartidge. I reacently was able to pick one up:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?192621-Just-Look-in-Awe

Needless to say, I was pretty happy because for me it made the machine very useful for small cuts, like coping, and for that it is perfectly fine. The runout is gone, but the bearings are still small.

I think that the interchangable 1 1/4 spindle is a rarity in the delta hd, with a different bearing cartridge. It looks like the size of the bearings is still relatively small though. I have the interchangable cartridge also, with 1/2, 3/4, and 1 inch spindles, but it has too much runout to be an accurate coper.

[Peter Quinn]

They made interchangeable 1/2"/3/4" machines, they made 1" solid spindles where you had to change the whole cartridge , they made 1 1/4" solid spindles, again requires changing the whole cartridge, and more recently they have a 3/4"/ 1 1/4" interchangeable quill with the draw bar system. So what he's looking at depends on the exact machine he's working with. Bottom speed on most of them was 7K, so you could take that as a que to the largest size cutters it was intended to spin. They also made it in a 5HP 1 1/4" version, not sure the quill was any more rigid or not.

[Mel Fulks]

Have not run across that system .Thanks for tech update, Peter

[Jeff Duncan]

Well looks like I was mistaken....again:eek:

My knowledge from when I had my Delta is of the 1-1/4" spindle/quill which as mentioned must be changed as a complete unit. I was not aware Delta came out with a draw bar style quill/spindle assembly to attain an interchangeable 1-1/4" spindle. Must have missed the memo;)

JeffD

[David Scheckman]

My shaper, (made in USA in the 90's sometime) has interchangeable spindles, drawbar style. I have a 3/4", an 1 1/4" and a router bit spindle. I believe 1" is also available. I'm pretty sure the 1 1/4" did not come standard and possibly was only meant for the 5hp version, although it sounds like bearings are more of the issue then hp. I've set up with some 3 wing 1 1/4" cutters thinking they would be more useful if I upgrade later. None of them are particularly big or heavy, although one rabbeting cutter might be pushing it. I haven't had any noticeable issues with vibration or smoothness of cut. I always use the power feeder except when working ends/coping.
Thanks for all the comments, very helpful
David

[Mark Wooden]

I wasn't aware that an 1-1/4" spindle was ever availible for the HD shaper of any hp. My concern would be that the quill end was turned down too much for that size spindle and cutter. I don't have any experience with that particular machine, but if the bearings are the same size as the older ones, if a bearing starts to go, and the spindle starts to whip, the potential for it to shear is pretty high. If I had to use that shaper with the larger bore cutters, I'd go for the solid quill and spindle.
Anyway, in answer to your original question- limit the size of your 1-1/4" cutters to no bigger than the 3/4" bore cutters the 3 hp machine was designed for. Look for a machine with a bigger quill, like an MK5, for the larger cutters.

[Peter Quinn]

I wasn't aware that an 1-1/4" spindle was ever available for the HD shaper of any hp. My concern would be that the quill end was turned down too much for that size spindle and cutter. I don't have any experience with that particular machine, but if the bearings are the same size as the older ones, if a bearing starts to go, and the spindle starts to whip, the potential for it to shear is pretty high. If I had to use that shaper with the larger bore cutters, I'd go for the solid quill and spindle.
Anyway, in answer to your original question- limit the size of your 1-1/4" cutters to no bigger than the 3/4" bore cutters the 3 hp machine was designed for. Look for a machine with a bigger quill, like an MK5, for the larger cutters.


I mistakenly ordered one of the delta 1 1/4" draw bar type spindles made for the newer HD shaper machines, only to realize it didn't fit my older delta HD shaper. It was close, but no cigar. Maybe they went metric when they went off shore? Mine still had the "Made In USA" flag logo on it. In any event, it was only a matter of thousands of an inch larger diameter, maybe .020" greater diameter? And a bit longer tip, but only a bit. I considered having a machine shop turn it down to fit, wound up returning it. Thinking back and based on what I know now, its pretty scary to consider what you could spin on that spindle being held by what is ultimately very little steel. Maybe just over 1/2"? Well, anyone that has changed spindles on one of these knows what they look like. I vastly prefer the idea of a changeable cartridge assemble such as the PM 27's used or the older delta HD 1". Better still, my Minimax has an interchangeable system that is based on a morse taper, but it is very robust and performs flawlessly without chatter. Very quick to change too, and all from above the table. No getting on my knees behind a dusty shaper and digging around in the cabinet trying to find the bolts that hold the cartridge to the quill assembly. The whole design of the small american based shapers, both the delta HD and the PM 27, leaves a lot to be desired on every level IMHO, except price point.

[Mel Fulks]

Peter, I agree the Morse taper kind is the best but as I said I haven't seen any with good install instructions.Just wondering if that applies to the brand you use?

[J.R. Rutter]

I don't have much to add to this discussion that hasn't been covered. But with talk of bearings and spindles, I was reminded of some comparison photos that I took when I was rebuilding some shapers. I sized these two photos so that the scale is identical. Keep in mind also that the PM27 spindle shown (similar to the Delta HD) is held on the machine by a cast arm which is in turn attached to the motor mount/height adjustment assembly. The whole works can flex under load. Industrial shapers that are designed to spin 10" diameter tenoning cutters, like the T130 shown, support the spindle cartridge in a close tolerance cast tube that attaches to the table and extends down underneath.

http://home.nas.com/harmonic/NewShop/PM27%20spindle.jpg
http://home.nas.com/harmonic/NewShop/T130%20spindle.jpg

I guess my thought is to err on the side of caution. A 6" diameter panel raiser is the biggest cutter that I would run on the light duty shapers like the Delta or Powermatic 26/27. At one time, I had a stack of 3 panel raisers on the SCMI and it ran as smoothly as the Powermatic with a single, smaller diameter head.

[David Kumm]

Here are relative spindle sizes. Left is from a SECO 3 hp shaper, followed by a Knapp, SCMI T130, and Felder F7. The Felder includes the bearing cartridges but the SCMI is the largest. The Knapp has a large MK5 taper but the weak point would be the fact it is hollow with the threaded rod fitted inside. The 3/4" is fairly short for that reason. The SECO is smaller than either the Delta or PM and attaches with a draw bar. Dave

246012

[David Scheckman]

Great photo's and a really instructive thread. I appreciate all the comments. I'll be keeping my eye out for a bigger shaper , although I'll have to get lucky to avoid either a big project (travel, 3 phase conversion etc., time) or big bucks. In the meantime I think I've gotten a good sense how to approach using the Delta.
Thanks,
David

[Jeff Duncan]

Hey I did that too!

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae307/duncanww/IMG_1221.jpg

Powermatic 27 spindle vs a Martin 1-1/8" spindle!

I don't know about the other taper systems....I've heard the SCM spindles can be a bit tricky to remove if they've been in place for a while, but never had the pleasure of owning one so??? On the Martin it's pretty easy. You drop it in and tighten the retaining nut. When you need to remove it the nut itself pops it loose while you unscrew it.

Here's the spindle itself...and the ring behind it with the 8 cap bolts is the retaining nut.

http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2366.jpg

Of course the newer machines are fully automated so the days of tightening and loosening of nuts are long gone....

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Both my present shapers spindles are similar to Jeff's pictures, though quite a bit smaller. If I weren't so secure with my shaping I'd have spindle envy.....:rolleyes:.....well maybe I do just a little. But Martin's will do that to you. Anyway, both my minimax and paoloni shapers use a taper and nut system. The minimax manual actually has some reasonable directions, and some very clear and precise instructions regarding what size cutters the machine can spin, at what speeds and at what height on the spindle. Mind you I largely ignore these instructions, but they appear to have been created by actual engineers to convey useful information rather than an assembly of warnings written by lawyers and bean counters. As others have mentioned, as you stack cutters higher on the spindle, on a smaller machine, the capacity decreases. The minimax could also be equipped with a taller solid spindle cartridge that allowed increased capacity under the nut and increased height. Perhaps other machines are similar. It seems in the smaller weight classes you always compromise some capacity for the convenience of interchangeable spindles.

As JR mentioned, industrial type shapers have a quill a bit like a truck axel. The spindle spins in the middle, the quill is bolted to the table directly and is usually at least 3 times in depth the height of the spindle. Sort of like an ice berg. Its a very rigid construction. When you look closely at an old PM27, it all comes down to a very small piece of cast iron at the weak point. Its great up to a point, but it certainly can flex and chatter. I actually like the design of the delta better, and its a lot smoother going up and down, but it has the smallest bearings in the spindle cartridge and the least depth from top bearing to bottom, so that makes it easier to flex of chatter IME.

I used to have an old Honda Hawk, CB400, not exactly a Ducati, but a fun little bike. It had its limits, and I pushed it to every one of them. Luckily I survived that. In many ways I see the Delta HD shapers in the same light. Good dependable machines that have their limitations and can take a little pushing around the edges. Just don't push so hard that the nut that connects the seat to the handle bars comes loose though. Use your best judgement, proceed with caution, learn to see the warning signs that you are near the limits of the machines capacity. You don't want to cause a critical failure on a shaper, or a motorcycle for that matter.