Modern Day Mortise Gauge

[Charles Brown]

Or tenon gauge as someone in previous post has reflected.

I'm in the market for a new mortise gauge. I use the regular wheel marking gauge from Vertias for most of my layout work and really enjoy that tool. However, I find myself cutting mortises (or is the plural mortii?) by hand in small batches. I would like a new mortise gauge for that task. I need it to mark the reciprocal tenon as well.

I've used the inexpensive pin varieties and have had mixed results with that choice (maybe I'm missing a better manufacturer of these style of tools?). I like the wheel cutters on the Vertias gauges but am unsure about the new double head marking gauge they offer (seems like two cutters in-line would be more efficient).

For what it's worth, I'm a fan of the way Paul Sellers and Rob Cosman work but am not married to their methods.

Any help? Suggestions? Recommendations?

[Tony Wilkins]

I haven't tried them on my Titemark but I know that the setup for mortise marking is different than the double arm on the Veritas. It involves separate wheels (or on smaller mortises a fixed double wheel) that are on the same post. Don't know if that would work better for you but it is different than the Veritas.

[Paul Saffold]

Charles,
I use a home made one with a knife from a jigsaw blade, or a wheel style, but for tenons and mortices I use the Crown one with pins. It does help to sharpen the pins. I also like the fellers you mentioned, but I like lots if others, too. I learn from a lot of the individual blogs that craftsmen and craftswomen have available. There is a lot of talent out there and many are very sharing of their knowledge through the web. Same with this forum, too.
Paul

[Andrae Covington]

Your experiences sound similar to mine. I use a Veritas wheel gauge for most tasks. I was not happy with the traditional pin-style mortise gauge I had bought. As Paul Saffold said, it helps to sharpen the pins, but I still didn't like the fact that I couldn't see what I was doing. So I bought the Veritas dual wheel gauge. I love most of the stuff I buy from LV, but I kind of regret buying it: I didn't think the process through and only discovered after I bought it that there's no practical way to mark both sides in one pass, durrr. It's a fine gauge, and I use it for laying out more than just mortises, but for all the fussiness of the thing I could have just bought another single wheel gauge and used one for each side. I've thought about buying the mortise heads they sell that fit onto the shaft of the regular wheel gauges. But that involves fiddling with an allen wrench... if I were to go that route, I would buy another single-shaft wheel gauge and the mortise heads, and dedicate it to that task, probably usually set to match my 1/4" mortise chisel.

[Jim Koepke]

This is a tricky one because so much depends on the method one uses to make a mortise.

If a mortise is to be chopped it out with a chisel, then there could be a problem of the set wheel attachments do not match your chisel exactly. That is why my preference is for a dual pin gauge.

Mine is an old one that seems to do what is required. It doesn't leave as clean a line as a modern wheel gauge, but it is what I have.

If one drills out most of the waste then another method might work better.

Using two separate gauges to mark a surface sounds like something open to error.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The last few batches I've done, I've only been marking one side of my mortises, and letting the chisel width define the other side.

I've also got the LV gauge, but for the longest time, I used a gauge like this:

http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/a-simple-mortise-gauge-and-some-mail/

since I was really only using one mortise chisel, this worked quite well.

I've also quite often just made a mark with my chisel, and then used my single gauge to run a line perpendicular and intersecting with the mark the chisel made. This seems less finicky to me than trying to set a double gauge the width of my chisel.

[Russell Sansom]

I like the Titemark, I don't know the veritas for comparison because I haven't felt the need for a different one. I think many of us do like it. For me, the gauge I choose depends on the wood and the size of the mortises. Some woods prefer the wheels, some prefer the pins. And once in a while a given wood prefers a square and a knife. All of them are prone to their specific errors.

[Adam Cruea]

I've got the dual-wheel gauge.

Yeah, inline cutting heads would probably be better. The issue I run into with the Veritas gauge is that one wheel *always* pops loose when marking the mortise depending on which way you cut with the gauge. Also, it can be a pain to get into corners (for things like chairs or tables) because the head on it is quite wide (which is good, IMHO, because you don't have to worry about an unstraight line).

Overall, it's not a bad tool at all. You've got the Titemark, which looks pretty good. Little pricey, though. The Veritas is about 2/3 of the price of the Titemark, and functions perfectly fine for me with only minor annoyance (very minor).

The thing is, with the Titemark, you need to have an allen wrench handy to fiddle with the wheels. The Veritas has thumb screws. For me, worrying about loosing one less thing in the mess of a workshop is a good thing. It also goes to say that they both do dual-duty as a single mark or dual mark tool. . .the Veritas, IMHO, just seems to do it a little easier.

[Charles Brown]

I didn't think the process through and only discovered after I bought it that there's no practical way to mark both sides in one pass

This was one of the features that I identified as being a problem. I want the gauge to be able to mark both sides in one pass.

I would get the another of the Vertias marking gauges if you could buy the secondary head to turn it into a mortise gauge but I can't find them on their online site anymore. Maybe they discontinued that product when they developed the dual marking gauge because of the redundancy? My only complaint with the wheel style marking gauges is that because of the way I operate the tool with my left hand (I'm left handed), the set screw that holds the wheel will periodically work itself loose. Such is the cross we leftys must bear in life; we seemed to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.

I guess I could get one with the pins but was discouraged after using a friend's Crown mortise gauge as I thought it was a little crude in its fit, finish, and adjustment (much like using an Anant plane vs a Lie-Nielsen). Is there a new mortise gauge I could buy that works straight out of the box without those refinements?

I'm happy to make the pin style gauge work, I just want one I don't have to fettle with and although it seems like a fun task, I don't think I'm interested in making my own homemade solution. I'd rather buy one or two quality examples off the shelf and get to work. Are there any pin style gauges that fit that description?

[Derek Cohen]

All the mortices gauges work well if used appropriately. For example, the the LV double wheel gauge requires that each wheel is used independently of each other. Gauges with pins benefit hugely when the pins are converted to knives (by grinding).

If you are doing multiple mortices, get this one .. :)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/LeeValleyAprilFool.jpg

If you are motivated enough, you could make a dedicated fixed gauge for each mortice chisel (I have not been, and so I have a couple of variable gauges). Chisel widths vary, even when they are all marked, say, 1/4" and so I do not have a fixed gauge for this reason as well.

My preference is for a Kinshiro. Below is a modern version (the larger one) and a vintage ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/JMarkinggauge2.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/JMarkinggauge1.jpg

If I could only have one gauge it would be this one. They can just as easily be used for single lines as well (as in dovetail baselines) as the blades retract.

This is how they are used for a 1/4" mortice-and-tenon ..

Use a rule to mark off a ¼” at roughly the centre of the board. It is not critical that this is exact, as long as all markings are made from the face side. Make sure that you have clear reference marks to avoid confusion.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_73dfaadb.jpg

Now mark across the width with the mortice chisel, as shown below.

245282

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_19759670.jpg

Simply place the ends of the knives (or points) in the ends of the cut. This sets up the cutting width.

245283

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_m4d3a214c.jpg

Now slide the head of the gauge against the work piece to set its depth. This completes setting up the mortice gauge.

245284

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_557894d4.jpg

Mark the mortice lines.

245285

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_m71c7128b.jpg

And then mark the tenons with the same settings.

245286

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_676286f6.jpg

Reference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Derek's marking the width with the chisel and then setting the gauge to those marks is what I was referencing before.

I'm confused about folks not being able to mark in one pass? I rarely make just one pass with any of my marking gauges, single or double - the first pass is fairly light and quick, and the subsequent passes are deeper and heavier if I want a more pronounced line. But on softer woods, if the first line is deep enough, the Veritas double gauge marks the line in one pass for me. I also wonder if this contributing to some folks having the wheel come loose - if I'm going heavy handed enough that the wheel is going loose, the line is apt to be a little less accurate even if the wheel doesn't loosen up in use if the grain is more pronounced. I'm a righty, but just as often run the gauge in the opposite direction.

A little loc-tite might help keep the wheel from loosening, however, particularly if you're working left-handed.

[Adam Cruea]

This was one of the features that I identified as being a problem. I want the gauge to be able to mark both sides in one pass.

I would get the another of the Vertias marking gauges if you could buy the secondary head to turn it into a mortise gauge but I can't find them on their online site anymore. Maybe they discontinued that product when they developed the dual marking gauge because of the redundancy? My only complaint with the wheel style marking gauges is that because of the way I operate the tool with my left hand (I'm left handed), the set screw that holds the wheel will periodically work itself loose. Such is the cross we leftys must bear in life; we seemed to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.

I guess I could get one with the pins but was discouraged after using a friend's Crown mortise gauge as I thought it was a little crude in its fit, finish, and adjustment (much like using an Anant plane vs a Lie-Nielsen). Is there a new mortise gauge I could buy that works straight out of the box without those refinements?

I'm happy to make the pin style gauge work, I just want one I don't have to fettle with and although it seems like a fun task, I don't think I'm interested in making my own homemade solution. I'd rather buy one or two quality examples off the shelf and get to work. Are there any pin style gauges that fit that description?

You mean this?

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=60488&cat=1,42936

[Charles Brown]

You mean this?

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=60488&cat=1,42936

Yes! Thank you. I couldn't find it in my earlier searches.

[Charles Brown]

Reference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, thank you for your insight. I like the look of the Kinshiro gauge and think it may be exactly what I'm looking for. No filing of pins, intuitive setup, and hopefully, a reasonable price. I trust I'll be able to find a distributor in America.

[Jim Neeley]

If you like the wheel-type gauge, Rob Cosman sells a mortise (tenon) gauge on his web site where you set the close line as "normal" and then you dial in the width directly from your mortise chisel. I've got it and it works well for me.. YMMV..

Jim


245278

[Bob Warfield]

+1 on the Cosman gauge. I've had one just over a year and wouldn't trade it for 2 of anything else.
Bob

[Jack Curtis]

+10 on the Kinshiro, just a perfect gauge; and they came in different sizes (I've got a large and bought the blades to make a small version). And they can double for cutting gauges.

[Charles Brown]

+10 on the Kinshiro, just a perfect gauge; and they came in different sizes (I've got a large and bought the blades to make a small version). And they can double for cutting gauges.

Jack, where did you buy the Kinshiro from?

[Paul Saffold]

http://japantool-iida.com/marking/2010/05/kinshiro-marking-gauge-1.html


(http://japantool-iida.com/marking/2010/05/kinshiro-marking-gauge-1.html)

[Adam Petersen]

I have the Veritas dual marking gauge. I like it. It is much improved in my opinion since I added the shaft clamp they introduced shortly after the gauge came out. I sometimes work the bar locks loose and the shaft clamp will keep things in order unless I loosen both sides (which hasn't happened). I had a cheap version of the Kinshiro from Japanwoodworker and I still have it. I don't like it, but then it's not made to the quality of the Kinshiro. I will say my hardened cutter on my dual marking gauge is all dinged and needing replaced after just normal use. I looks like I got into a sword fight with it. Bunch of nicks. It's supposed to be a hardened cutter so I don't know what I could have done to nick it up since I've only used it on red oak and walnut for marking M and T's. I'll have to order some replacements, but they're cheap.

I do like the wheel cutters, but I also will say the knife cutters on my el cheapo japanese gauge cut easier then the wheels. Or seem to cut cleaner.

[Charles Brown]

http://japantool-iida.com/marking/2010/05/kinshiro-marking-gauge-1.html


(http://japantool-iida.com/marking/2010/05/kinshiro-marking-gauge-1.html)

Paul, I saw that one and also one on Japan Woodworker. I wasn't sure if the price difference was due to sourcing difficulties or a difference in quality. The wear strip does seem like a nice touch but $300 might put it past the my purchase price limit.

Am I correct in assuming the the Kinshiro (clone?) on Japan Woodworker is of inferior quality?

[Jack Curtis]

Jack, where did you buy the Kinshiro from?

http://www.japantool-iida.com/ for the large gauge, Harrelson/Hiraide for the smaller blade set. And btw, there's no such thing as a cheap version of the Kinshiro. The general style is the Japanese style, which Kinshiro has perfected.

[Jim Matthews]

The Veritas dual wheel is dead simple to set up.

I like the Japanese style gauge when I'm trying to score a longer line, such as when reducing a board to thickness.
Set up properly, the blade style pulls the gauge fence tight to the board for a consistent depth.

[Steve Friedman]

I really like the Japanese-style ones. I have the 6" version made by Hamilton Toolworks and love it. Reasonably priced as well. I didn't realize how expensive the Kinshiro gauges were. Wonder what makes it better than the Colen Clenton ones?

Steve

[Stanley Covington]

My preference is for a Kinshiro. Below is a modern version (the larger one) and a vintage ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/JMarkinggauge2.jpg



If I could only have one gauge it would be this one. They can just as easily be used for single lines as well (as in dovetail baselines) as the blades retract.
Derek

Sadly, Kinshiro has retired, and although a few of his gauges can still be found in the tool stores here in Tokyo, they are going up in price.

Stan

[Mike Siemsen]

Make a dedicated two pin gauge to match your mortise chisel. You realy only neeed a single pin gauge to mark a mortise as the chisel will chop along one line just fine, you do need two pins for the tenon so it is a bit of a moot point.

[Derek Cohen]

I really like the Japanese-style ones. I have the 6" version made by Hamilton Toolworks and love it. Reasonably priced as well. I didn't realize how expensive the Kinshiro gauges were. Wonder what makes it better than the Colen Clenton ones?

Steve

Hi Steve

Go here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CuttingGauges.html

This is an aticle on making your own Kinshiro-influenced cutting gauge.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CuttingGauges_html_10c4ced5.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Friedman]

Go here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CuttingGauges.html

This is an aticle on making your own Kinshiro-influenced cutting gauge.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CuttingGauges_html_10c4ced5.jpg


Thanks Derek. I have those many times over and am still not convinced that I can make one. Hate to put you on the spot, but do you like the Kinshiro better than Colen Clenton's?

Steve

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Derek. I have those many times over and am still not convinced that I can make one. Hate to put you on the spot, but do you like the Kinshiro better than Colen Clenton's?

Steve

Steve, I have a Colen Clenton. You can see it here alongside the Kinshiro ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_37a81a49.jpg

The big drawback to the CC in my opinion is the placement of the adjustment knob. It is on the side rather than the top. Being on the side makes this a two-handed gauge. Being on the top makes it a one-handed gauge (far preferable). As a result of this factor I prefer using the gauges I made, which are based on a Kinshiro. If you can get a Kinshiro, grab it. I am now trying to work out how I can make the blades. (I wonder if Schtoo/Stu has them?).

Better than the CC is the one made by Chris Vesper (http://www.vespertools.com.au/). Buy one soon as he is threatening to stop making them as they are not cost effective for him (labour intensive) ..

... and I've just looked on his site for a picture, and they are no longer listed. There you are! Write to him and beg .. or make your own.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Friedman]

Better than the CC is the one made by Chris Vesper (http://www.vespertools.com.au/). Buy one soon as he is threatening to stop making them as they are not cost effective for him (labour intensive) ..

... and I've just looked on his site for a picture, and they are no longer listed. There you are! Write to him and beg .. or make your own.


Thanks Derek,

I had looked at Chris Vesper's site, assuming that he made them, but didn't see any. I see that Stu has several new cutting gauges, but only the cheaper ones resemble the Kinshiro.

Good point about the adjustment knob. I recall reading that in one of your articles.

Steve

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

It seems like the knives in the Kinshiro type gauge could be more easily made by a hobbyist if you did a two-piece manufacture, like the larger cutters for the Veritas router plane. I don't know the best way one would do this, but it's just a thought. Being able to nestle two cutters inside of each other is really the bit that makes it a little more difficult, I suppose.

[Randy Karst]

This posting has changed my thinking about marking gauges, and, to some degree, about Japanese woodworking tools; let me explain: I have various marking gauges including a couple vintage Stanley #61 & 62 pin gauges, a Drake Tite-Mark, and a Hamilton 4” marking gauge. In my experience, none of them has been the pinnacle. Now, with regard to Japanese woodworking tools, I have not gotten along well with the few I have tried before and thus had pretty much written them-off as a whole. Derek’s posting stating that if he could only have one marking gauge, it would be his Kinshiro was a bold statement; I decided to look closure. I considered the greater registry (fence) of a Japanese style-marking gauge and the different cutting geometry and someone here had suggested a real world priced Japanese gauge at Japan Woodworker. Gauge #15.260.2 ($45.00) arrived early this week. Out of the box, I liked it immediately in spite of its fairly rough fit and finish. I honed and fettled the blades to a better degree, then sanded, oiled, (waited) and waxed the wood-nice. While it certainly is not in the league of a Kinshiro I imagine, nonetheless, I am enjoying using it and it may become my go-to marking gauge. The greater registry and the blade geometry work quite well together-very positive; perhaps because these are not bi-directional markers the cutting edge(s) engages the wood fibers more readily. Next thoughts: What can I sell to get into a Kinshiro? Alternatively, how do I go about obtaining or making the Japanese style blades for my own build?