Question about this set of sharpening stones

[Sean Walker]

I need a good set of stones to get me started in sharpening. The set below appears to be a great starter kit but doesn't have a polishing stone (extra fine stone). Can i use the 3 stones, then use the paste as a finer polish, or do I need to get a finer stone to polish the blades before going to the paste?

Kit: http://www.amazon.com/DMT-W6EFC-6-Inch-Diamond-Whetstone/dp/B003NCVFC4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=4HC4FK782OM5&coliid=I2JESB3W56P63M
Paste: http://www.amazon.com/DMT-DPK-Dia-Paste-Diamond-Compound/dp/B000MF7JSO/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=4HC4FK782OM5&coliid=I2AAD59MQCASQI

Thanks

[Richard Line]

Those diamond stones will work for chisels, but many (most) plane irons really need to be wider. You might want to consider getting the combination 325 & 1200 mesh (i.e. blue & green) 8 inch DMT stone. I think it is about the same price as the set your looking at. It is about 2-5/8 wide and it handles my 2-1/4 plane iron well. If/when you need a coarse stone (red) sandpaper on glass works well. As for polishing you might want to consider Lee Valley's diamond lapping films. I've been using them for a little while and I'm happy with them. They do last and they can be easily applied to a piece of glass or granite.

[Dale Cruea]

I started out with a set of these diamond stones.
I found that first they were not that flat.
When they start to wear it takes longer and longer to get hone a blade.
I found that a good set of stones that you can flatten and refresh are a lot better and last 2-3 or more times longer.

[Paul McGaha]

Hi Sean,

If i were buying my first set of stones I'd buy these:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

PHM

[Sean Walker]

Hi Sean,

If i were buying my first set of stones I'd buy these:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

PHM

Where can I buy them? The price on that site, converted to US dollars... is a bit extreme.

[Paul McGaha]

Where can I buy them? The price on that site, converted to US dollars... is a bit extreme.

Sean,

With that kit you get 3 premium water stones and a diamond plate to keep them flat. The owner of that store is Stuart Tierney, he's a creeker and knows a great deal about stones. Great reputation. Gives great advice about stones. I like buying from Stu. A lot of us do.

PHM

[Steve Friedman]

Only place to buy them from is Stu at Tools from Japan. They are well worth the price, but there is a cheaper set without the 13000 stone. You can replace the 13000 with a leather strop.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1668

[Sean Walker]

Only place to buy them from is Stu at Tools from Japan. They are well worth the price, but there is a cheaper set without the 13000 stone. You can replace the 13000 with a leather strop.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1668


Would you guys make sure my google powers are not wrong? When I Google 12,000 Yuan, the price of the stone above, it says 12000 Chinese yuan = 1921.4760 US dollars
I apologize if I'm not even close to right.

[Ryan Mooney]

Would you guys make sure my google powers are not wrong? When I Google 12,000 Yuan, the price of the stone above, it says 12000 Chinese yuan = 1921.4760 US dollars


I apologize if I'm not even close to right.

Japanese Yuan :D More like $151 dollars which isn't nearly as hair raising.

[Sean Walker]

Japanese Yuan :D More like $151 dollars which isn't nearly as hair raising.

Wow, do I feel like an idiot. Sorry everyone!

[Paul McGaha]

Sean,

There is a currency selction thingy on Stu's site. That first set is a little over $300.

PHM

[Sean Walker]

That is a little out of my range. Can you guys recommend another set, that is from a store in the US? Possibly Amazon.com.

[David Weaver]

Get a shapton pro 1000 and a kitayama 8k.

Forget about amazon, get them from Chef Knives to Go.

[Sean Walker]

Would it work if I bought 4000 and 8000 stones and used 1000 wet/dry sand paper for rough work? It seems going from 1k to 8k is extreme.

[Archie England]

Hi Sean,

If i were buying my first set of stones I'd buy these:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

PHM

Yep! That's what I did; and, I really like these stones. The 1200 is better than the 1000--by far!!! The 6k and 13k stones are superb!

[Archie England]

Would it work if I bought 4000 and 8000 stones and used 1000 wet/dry sand paper for rough work? It seems going from 1k to 8k is extreme.

That's a personal "thing." I like incremental steps; others, don't.

As to where to start....the 1200 Sigma Power stone is perhaps the single best entry level stone that I've used. It out performs my 1k and allows easy transition to the 6k. Chris G has the Chosera 800 and goes to a Snow White 8k--without a problem. But that's the personal thing. For all but end grain slicing, I can stop at a 4k easily. Anything more is for pride not need. So, the two stones to get are the 1200 and the 6000 (or a another 4k or 8k) but Stu's Sigma power stones are really good. >>>>Just a satisfied customer.

AE

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've been eying the same set, but the $305 US hurts. Especially after you figure the cheapest shipping from Japan is another 53 bucks. The total shipping and cost are a little cheaper if you go a-la-carte and subtract the diamond plate and base.

I certainly don't begrudge Stu his prices, nor can I blame him for what it costs to ship all that from Japan. Going from what I've heard of people's opinions of those stones, I'd *love* to get some, I just start to wonder if they're better enough over what amount to cheaper options for *me*. I don't know. I also don't know how to tell.

I've been thinking of picking those up one at a time over the course of a year or two, replacing what I've got now - I should sit down and figure out how much more I'd end up spending on shipping that way. Of course, that's assuming shipping costs stay the same until I've got the full set.

[Sean Walker]

I think I'm going to get the 1k, 4k and 8k shapton stones to get me started.

[David Weaver]

Not glasstones, I hope.

In my experienced position (having just about used them all). The 1k is soft, and doesn't last long, and the others only have 5mm of abrasive and don't respond that well to flattening with sandpaper.

Get the 1k shapton pro, glue it to a base of wood and get a different finish stone. Skip the 4k level stone for now.

If you get something like the kityama stone, you can slurry it thickly and it will still cut very fast but fine. At one point, a seller on ebay was selling a FANTASTIC magnesia (like the chosera binder) 6k stone for $38 shipped, and if you're really budget conscious, you could combine it with a king stone or something like that, it would've been $60 or so for both. But he doesn't list it on ebay any longer. That was the ultimate budget combo.

All talk aside, if you can't sharpen with any of the stones mentioned, it's not the stones.

But avoid the glasstones, they're a waste of money for what you get.

And like it or not, this thing works fine to flatten stones.
http://www.harborfreight.com/4-sided-diamond-hone-block-92867.html

Sure, an atoma is nicer, of course...it's 7 or 8 times as much. I've been using one of these horror fright diamond square to flatten stones and freshen their surface, and it works fine. It isn't 8 inches long, but if you run it over the surface of stones varying its direction, there is nothing you'll do with woodworking tools where it wouldn't be flat enough. It would also raise a good slurry on a kitayama stone fast. This slurry and little water equals fast cutting, and thinned slurry or no slurry (just clear water) is slower cutting and higher polish. Far better on stones than sandpaper for almost no money.

[Sean Walker]

I just don't know enough about sharpening to understand much about the method to use. I really only use my chisels and a block plane, which are dull from the factory. I'm a power tool user, so I don't know what I should do.

[Ethan Liou]

How about starting with sandpapers? They are already in your shop. Glue them on a dead flat surface and you are ready to go. You probably need #400, #600, #1000, #1500, #2500 to give you a sharp edge. Search "Scary Sharp Method" if you want to know more.

That's the way I learned how to put a sharp edge on hand tools. If you need waterstones, you can always pick them up later.

[Dale Cruea]

After using many different methods to sharpen and finally ending up with stone from Stu. I have decided that if you are going to spend good money on tools you should spend the same good money on stones.
Cheap stones are cheap and work cheap. Get a good set of stones. You will better off in the long run.

[Roy Lindberry]

That is a little out of my range. Can you guys recommend another set, that is from a store in the US? Possibly Amazon.com.

Sean, I think this is a good starter set. Follow it with a strop, and you have a very keen edge, for not as much money. http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/nortonwaterstonestarterkit.aspx

Or if you want to go the oilstone route, which require less maintenance, then I found these to work very well: http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2000237/4424/arkansas-stone-8-x-3-x-12-set-3-piece.aspx

[Archie England]

If you can't buy a Sigma Power ceramic 1200 and 6000 then consider the Bestor 1200 and a Suehiro Rika 5000. The Bestor 1200 is the best bang for the buck I've used. No, it's not as responsive or capable of quickly cutting an edge like the SP or the Chosera, but it gets there blazingly faster than my old Norton stones or my oilstones!!!! It's just a solid work horse and is available for around $48 (check out ChefKnivesToGo). After that, the $45 5k Suehiro Rika is a messy but fabulous delight. It's much softer than the SP Ceramic 6k, dishes, and wears much faster . . . but, it can seriously sharpen anywhere from a 2k to 6k range, depending on how long you pre-soak to how much splash you continue to use. Oh, the mess! But, it competes with all stones in the 2000-6000 ranges because of its characteristics. You must flatten this stone often.

All water stones will work. Their differences are primarily in hardness, dish resistance, wear resistance, speed of cut, and quality (responsiveness) of cut. IMO, a Norton is C; the Bestor, a B; and the Sigma Power Ceramic or Chosera, an A. BTW, their speeds are likewise reflected, as are the other traits as well. You do get what you pay for! Buy right by buying once; but, all these stones will cut (as evidenced by the suggested Suehiro Rika 5k, which for hardness, dishing, and wear resistance gets a D, but earns an A for speed, quality of cut, and responsiveness). YMMV.

Best of luck to you. FWIW, the Sigma Power ceramics (or Choseras [which are outrageously $$$$]) ARE best stones CONSISTENTLY that I use. The Sigmas are not as fussy or finicky or delicate (or as expensive); and, you can get Cho 10k quality (nearly) from the Naniwa Snow White 8k. I'm now biased and consider the Sigma 6k as the best in it's field of contenders. But Gesshin ($$$$$) makes some superb stones, as well. Their 4000 enables me to by-pass the 6k and go straight to a 10k or the SPC 13K. However, the Gesshin 8k never did much for me. Some of my friends (btw, we swap out stones to try out) swear by the Sigma Power ceramic 8k; but, I've never "felt" the need when coming off my 6k, which smoothly slices SYP endgrain.

Last word of provocation... some stones (aka Naniwa superstones) need incremental steps at the lower levels; others don't! One can skip large gaps (Cho 800 to Snow White 8000; or Shapton Pro 1000 to 12000) with great results. But this subject is like telling someone that they don't need a whole set of chisels. REALLY!

Enjoy!

Whatever.... :)

[Joe A Faulkner]

Sean, I'm a hobbyist with kids to put through college and several years from retirement. I'm lucky to spend 8 hours a week in the shop. While I've been making saw dust for nearly 40 years or so, it has been at a relatively slow pace. Only in the last couple of years have I started to use hand tools. Easing my way into this, I didn't want to spend too much on a sharpening set up given all of the other stuff on my wish list, but there is very little point in trying to use any edge tools if you can't hone them. I started down the scary sharp (wet sand paper) path only to discover that a) sand paper isn't cheap b) creating a series of sand paper bases using either float glass, granite, marble or some other adequately flat and durable surface wasn't cheap, c) building a sharpening station based on scary sharp was going to take up space I didn't want to devote to my shop. So I switched to using the starter set from Norton. 220/1000 combo stone, 4000/8000 combo stone, plus a flattening stone, and a tray. This might be a good option for you to consider as your first set of stones. My hand plane collection consists primarily of old Bailey\Stanley reconditioned planes, so for where I'm at on my way down this slippery slope, this set of stones was a reasonable choice for me.

http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Waterstone-Starter-Kit-flattening/dp/B000XK0FMU

[Sean Walker]

I appreciate the advice in this thread. I know the scary sharp isn't popular around here, but I have a sample of grits up to 2500 and some glass, so I will give this method a try first and see how I like it. I just spent 12 dollars on the lapping film that Lee Valley sells, so that's pretty much the only thing I had to buy. I feel like I can't justify the stones when I really don't even have any hand tools other than a set of woodriver chisels and an stanley block plane (the cheap one). I may need to get a few more planes before I worry about the stones.

Thanks again everyone. I may start another thread asking for help on making sure i'm sharpening enough lol.

[Jim Neeley]

Sean,

We are here in this forum because of our love of woodworking; there are are other forums for those whose hobby is spending hours or days sharpening an edge sharper than anyone has ever done before. While there are a few who can cut dovetails with a hacksaw and a screwdriver I believe the single most important (and under recognized) step in good hand tool woodworking is mastering rapid sharpening.

IMO, learning to get a "mighty sharp edge quickly" will make a greater difference in your woodworking skill and pleasure than any other. Even top-tier tools need touch-up on a very regular basis; learning to do this in 15-30 seconds makes it feasible to resharpen just as the tool is losing its edge, making every cut safe and clean.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Scary Sharp (sandpaper) method. It gives you the capability to get the razor-sharp edge that is otherwise (IMO) the single biggest impediment to the success of many. It has the advantage of this method is it's low "cost of entry" into the world of sharpening. It may well be that this is the best place for you to start; it is where I started. The down side of this method is that the ongoing cost of consumables is high and its sharpening (IMO) is much slower than a good stone. The reason many here recommend investing in a good set of stones is due to the next recommendation.

Whether you start with sandpaper, water stones, diamond stones, WorkSharp, Tornek or another system, stick with it. Some of us (DAMHIK) went through several different systems chasing the magic but elusive "unbelievably sharp, instantly" system. As a result, we wasted a lot of time mostly-learning but not perfecting a single method. Once I stuck with a method, it started coming together. I'm still not where I want to be in quick, free-hand sharpening but I'm getting better with each WW project.

In the end, whatever method you choose, invest the time to master it.

Jim in Alaska

[Sean Walker]

Thanks Jim, for the response. My biggest fear of sharpening is the knowledge I lack. I just don't know if i'm doing it right, or if i need to take a few more swipes on whatever grit i'm on.I spent 25 minutes going through each grit on a cheap Stanley block plane and it came out really polished(so much so that I could see my reflection in the blade), but the plane didn't cut like I expected it to. It's probably due to it being a crappy plane, but a crappy one with a polished blade!

[Ethan Liou]

Sean, Stay on first grit until you can feel a burr along the entire cutting edge. The burr will be getting smaller and smaller on each finer grit. On the finest grit, carefully wipe the back and the bevel back and forth a few times. Now you have a working blade. To make it even sharper, you can use a strop.

Good luck.

[Ryan Mooney]

Disclaimer: many of the people posting here know more about sharpening than I'll probably ever learn.

Having got that out of the way, I tried a bunch of different methods and stone and I have to say that when I got the Sigma stones it was somewhat of a revelation. The pure speed of how quickly they put an edge on was nothing short of phenomenal. I still use an arkansas black and a strip of leather with green rouge at the bench for touch ups on O1 and carbon steel because frankly having to use water all the time is annoying but when I want to clean up an edge.. its worth it (this is also why I'd pick O1 or carbon for carving chisels or other tools I want to keep really sharp all the time). For A2 and harder steels oil stones just don't really "cut it" so to speak so ceramics are the only way to go in that case imho. I had long used oil stones and figured the sandpaper trick was worth a shot, but would echo several other people here that the costs add up quick and really I didn't find it to be all that fast or better than stones. Sandpaper does have the advantage that you can work on larger pieces that you can reasonably get a stone for though so for some uses (flattening plane soles) its still a nice backup strategy.

Having said that. Sharpening is about a lot more than speed (the speed is really nice though :D); the angles, the rest of the setup of the tool, etc.. can definitely affect how it works in practice even if its really sharp. Why your plane didn't cut well could have been any one of a large number of reasons, mostly with those I'd suggest backing off and taking a smaller slice and see if it helps for starters (not saying that's it.. but)..

[Chris Griggs]

Sean - where are you located? There may be someone here who lives near you and would be happy spend a couple hours with you helping you get started sharpening and setting up your plane. Best of luck.

[Sean Walker]

Sean - where are you located? There may be someone here who lives near you and would be happy spend a couple hours with you helping you get started sharpening and setting up your plane. Best of luck.

I live a few minutes away from Lexington, KY.

What grit should I start with a beat up plane iron? It has a bunch of notches knocked out on the tip from abuse.

[David Weaver]

Do you have a grinder or a belt sander?

[Carl Beckett]

My biggest fear of sharpening is the knowledge I lack.



This was (is) indeed, my experience as well. The single best way to overcome this hurdle and gain confidence, is via someone with experience and patience/generosity to spend a couple hours with you and show you what 'sharp' really is. How it affects the use of the tool. And how to sharpen to get there.

It does make a difference in quality of work (in my experience), and enjoyment (although there are some here that enjoy the process of sharpening itself - its a means to an end for me and I just want the tool to perform well). Of course we dont know what we dont know. If you can at all find some time with someone experienced do it. Then do it with a different person because even the masters all have different approaches, styles, and philosophies. After a while you will develop your own.

[Sean Walker]

Do you have a grinder or a belt sander?

No, I sure don't.

[Chris Griggs]

At this point you essentially want to regrind the bevel, so start with something pretty coarse - like 100 grit or even 80. Also, if if you are not already use a honing guide. You can get a side-clamping one (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Larson-800-1800-Honing-Guide/dp/B000CFNCKS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352735106&sr=8-1&keywords=honing+guide) for y $10-$12 from Amazon, Sears or just about any woodworking retailer. Than watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yogRewlMWrc&list=PL5BE69422F61CEE64&index=15&feature=plpp_video) and this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F7q5WGb4ZA&list=PL5BE69422F61CEE64&index=3&feature=plpp_video). This is exactly how I first learned to sharpen.

Free hand sharpening is a great skill, but it is not something I advise doing if you are trying to learn to sharpen on your own - that can come later. Even if you are a skilled sharpener grinding IMHO is best done with some type of guide since it is what establishes the geometry. For just starting out though, use a guide for everything. Then when you KNOW what sharp is, you can try to replicate it freehand if that's a skill you desire to learn.

[Archie England]

grinders top out at less than a 1000 grit sharped, can blue (draw out the temper) in a heartbeat, and can eat up blade life quickly; but "quickly" they work. I've got a Tormek and it takes a blade to over a 1,000 grit sharp and with the leather wheel, it can get somewhere between 2k-6k (ish) sharp (so long as I don't roll over the edge on the leather). Once I discovered "Tormek sharp" I began to reproduce that with stones. Now I save my grinder and the Tormek for heavy duty restoration since quick touch ups go much faster and more reliable by freehand sharping--BUT I DIDN'T START THAT WAY!!! This takes patience. So, do find someone within a few hours and go learn. That's the best way!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I live a few minutes away from Lexington, KY.

What grit should I start with a beat up plane iron? It has a bunch of notches knocked out on the tip from abuse.

If you ever make it up to Columbus Ohio, give me a shout and we can have a sharpening party :D

We can use the grinder as needed, give a wet grinder a try, use a bit of sandpaper if you like, and even use some water stones!

Your starting grit will depend greatly on the blade and exactly how much you need to remove. I purchased a cheap "slow speed" grinder when i needed to rehab a bunch of chisels. In hind-site, I should have taken even more off them! Off hand, 60 grit should be very aggressive. I would probably start with around 100 grit and see if that appears to be fast enough. If not, then switch to the 60 if it is really needed.

[David Weaver]

Well, a dry grinder shouldn't be used for anything other than squaring off a bevel that needs restoration, followed by chasing the bevel to the edge. It shouldn't burn or even straw temper anything, and maintenance grinding is done just to the edge of the bevel, but not working off the honed edge with the grinder. Blade life should be the same either way, and even with a gray wheel, I can actually touch the edge of a tool i'm grinding without using water even on the last bit of work, as long as it's not HSS (HSS takes longer to grind and gets hot).

I wish I would've skipped the tormek and spent the money on a good quality grinder to start. Once I had a good dry grinder, I stopped using the tormek entirely and now george has my tormek. I was afraid I'd not have anything to do turning tools, but picked up a cheap 1x42 kalamazoo belt grinder, which is infinitely useful (and quick) for curved irons, knives and freehanding turning tools - as well as making small irons. A 1k grit trizact belt on a small belt grinder is a wonderful thing for maintenance of curved irons, etc.

But, anyway, every grinder should remove the same amount of metal - whatever it takes to get just to the honed edge, but no more.

[Sean Walker]

I have a honing guide that I use. I will try it on some 80 grit paper for a little while and see where that gets me. As for my other question, My chisels are pretty much brand new. Should I lap the back starting at like 600 grit up to my 2500 grit paper, and then start the honing out on the 1000 grit up to the lapping film (.01 lee valley film)? I also understand that most people put a secondary bevel on their chisels. I saw the LN video on sharpening and he puts a 1/8 inch spacer in front of the chisel and which moves it back in the guide. Do I need to them take it back to the 1k and up the grits again, or just start out with the finer grit/film for the secondary bevel?

Thanks again everyone!

[David Weaver]

try the back flattening on the 1000 stone before you try any sandpaper. You're likely to dub the edges of the chisel back if you use sandpaper on it that is not stuck down hard to a hard surface. Any movement of the paper at all will result in rounding of edges, and you don't want to do that. It's OK on the bevel side, but not the back.

If you use a 1000 stone to finish the primary bevel, you can use any stone you have for the secondary bevel, especially on the first try. The finer, the better.

[Sean Walker]

try the back flattening on the 1000 stone before you try any sandpaper. You're likely to dub the edges of the chisel back if you use sandpaper on it that is not stuck down hard to a hard surface. Any movement of the paper at all will result in rounding of edges, and you don't want to do that. It's OK on the bevel side, but not the back.

If you use a 1000 stone to finish the primary bevel, you can use any stone you have for the secondary bevel, especially on the first try. The finer, the better.

I don't have any stones. I will be using sand paper and the film attached to some plate glass. I have some 3M 77 adhesive that I will be using to stick the sandpaper down.

[Rob Dickson]

Not to hi-jack a thread, but does anyone have an idea of how these sigma stones would be with the new PM-V11 steel that Lee Valley is using? I'm starting on my basic set of planes and have planned to get them in the new steel...Im not firm on the sigma stones for my first set but had the 1000 and 10 000X stones on my LV wish list....I noticed that the set from Japan listed on this thread was for the 1000 and 6000X stones...would there be a big difference in using the 6000 over the 10 000?

again sory to hi-jack the thread....I'm new to hand tools and am just "finding my way" here...

[Adam Cruea]

Not to hi-jack a thread, but does anyone have an idea of how these sigma stones would be with the new PM-V11 steel that Lee Valley is using? I'm starting on my basic set of planes and have planned to get them in the new steel...Im not firm on the sigma stones for my first set but had the 1000 and 10 000X stones on my LV wish list....I noticed that the set from Japan listed on this thread was for the 1000 and 6000X stones...would there be a big difference in using the 6000 over the 10 000?

again sory to hi-jack the thread....I'm new to hand tools and am just "finding my way" here...

With that Tools from Japan link, Stu sells a set with a 13,000 grit stone.

[edit]BTW, you might want to talk to Stuart Tierney and make sure the Sigma set is geared toward you. He can run you through all that stuff fairly well.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667 (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667)

Forgot to add. . .Mr. Stu has a pretty nifty blog also since you're new to hand tools. At least, what I've seen is pretty nifty, well said, and informative. Might give it a check. Just go to www.toolsfromjapan.com (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com) and you can hit it from there.

[Steve Friedman]

Not to hi-jack a thread, but does anyone have an idea of how these sigma stones would be with the new PM-V11 steel that Lee Valley is using? I'm starting on my basic set of planes and have planned to get them in the new steel...Im not firm on the sigma stones for my first set but had the 1000 and 10 000X stones on my LV wish list....I noticed that the set from Japan listed on this thread was for the 1000 and 6000X stones...would there be a big difference in using the 6000 over the 10 000?


While Stu sells the Sigma Power Select II stones that Lee Valley carries, the "package deal" that many of us have purchased from Stu are different stones. They are the Sigma Ceramics (no II). I think Derek Cohen has the Sigma II stones, which I believe were designed for the newer steels.

Steve

[Rob Dickson]

Thanks guys...I'll drop Stu a line directly to confirm any difference between the sigma ceramics and the "sigma II's". I had a look at the vidoes on the japan tools site but didn't know there was a blog...its alreday in my "bookmarks" but I'll be sure to add it the list of woodworking blogs I'm collecting....any ideas about jumping directly from a 1000X stone to the 10,000X? Too big a jump?

[Stuart Tierney]

Not to hi-jack a thread, but does anyone have an idea of how these sigma stones would be with the new PM-V11 steel that Lee Valley is using? I'm starting on my basic set of planes and have planned to get them in the new steel...Im not firm on the sigma stones for my first set but had the 1000 and 10 000X stones on my LV wish list....I noticed that the set from Japan listed on this thread was for the 1000 and 6000X stones...would there be a big difference in using the 6000 over the 10 000?

again sory to hi-jack the thread....I'm new to hand tools and am just "finding my way" here...

Hi Rob,

I'll save you the trouble of sending me an email and get this out in the open, right here, right now.

Caveat; I'm the fellow selling the set from Japan. LV does not have a monopoly on the Sigma Power Select II stones, I sell all that LV do, plus some they do not and they're also available from Germany who list the full range of Select II stones made by Sigma Power. I also sell Sigma Power's 'Ceramic' stones which are of a different composition and behave differently to the Select II stones which were specifically designed for High Speed Steel. The 'Ceramic' stones were intended for 'normal' steel, although they work with HSS just fine as well.

(And if anyone's wondering, the 'new' #13000 stone LV is selling is the same as the ceramic #13000 that Sigma Power has made for many years and I've been selling for at least a couple years. Sigma Power asked me if they could stick that stone in a 'Select II' box and I said yes, which is why it's available in Germany from Fine Tools and from Lee Valley. Just so I don't get asked the "Why don't you sell the #13000 like Lee Valley does?" question ever again...)

Yes, it's confusing. Sorry.

The 'ceramic' stones in that set from Japan work just fine with PMV-11.

The Select II stones (from 'Japan' and LV) will also work with PMV-11, perhaps even better.

However the #1000 stone that LV sells is a Select II which is quite 'soft' in composition, and while it's about the fastest #1000 range stone out there, unless you're able to tame the dishing, it might be more than a handful.

The set that's been mentioned has a choice of 3 #1000 range stones, a soft, a hard and #1200 (which is extra hard). The soft will be about the same as the Select II #1000 in dishing speed, cuts almost as quickly though and is much cheaper. The hard stays flatter, is a better stone for tools and cuts pretty much any steel you'll come across at the present moment in time. The #1200 is slightly slower in outright speed than the previous two, but leaves a better finish at the edge so will save time on the finer stones so it's arguably faster or slower, depending on how you look at it. I tend to look at the whole picture and don't find the #1200 to be lacking in speed by enough to be a concern by any stretch of the imagination. But the #1200 ultimately costs more than the Select II #1000 or the hard/soft stones.

The #6000 in the set or #10000 from Japan or LV, either one will work well enough. The #6000 can bring a flat bevel up to polish pretty quickly and makes a very good edge. The #10000 won't cut as quickly (but it's one of the fastest very fine stones out there) and will technically give a sharper edge, although the #6000 can be coaxed along easily enough to match the #10000. Very much a case of the Indian, not the arrow and most folks will do fine with either one.

PMV-11 isn't tough enough to worry about. It can be filed with a good quality and very hard file, all known waterstones and 'ceramic' stones cut through it with consummate ease and it takes a working edge easily.

The steel is nothing to get excited about, which is why I own some of the stuff just so I know it's nothing to get excited about.

I hope that helps,

Stu.

[Dave Parkis]

Sean,

Based on only needing to do chisels and a block plane, I would suggest that the LV film or sand paper are the most economical option for you. I have used the sandpaper method, but it got too expensive for me. I happen to use the Sigma stones from Stu, but that's mostly because I rehab/sell planes, chisels, etc. Its not uncommon for me to bring home 8-10 planes in a weekend of rust hunting. If I only had my "users" to contend with, I'd probably opt for the LV film. They do a good job and take up almost no space when they're not in use. HTH

[Sean Walker]

Thanks Dave for all your help in this thread. I will give the LV film and sandpaper a try for a while and see how I like it. As much as I use my chisels and plane, it will probably be months before I need to sharpen them again. Do you put a secondary bevel on your chisels?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Don't hesitate to give stropping a try, either. Eventually stropping won't help and you'll need to sharpen properly, but keeping a strop nearby for my chisels has really helped me cut down on how many times during a project I need to stop and dig out the stones.

[Jack Curtis]

The main problem I had with sandpaper involved the board I mounted the wide strips on. It had to be fairly large, say 3' square with glass for mounting, thus a bit heavy and cumbersome. The strips sort of had to be on one board so I could pull it out quickly for use, several times during a woodworking event. I replaced it with stones which not only were better, but stackable and useable over a plastic pond about 1' X 1.5' that stayed in place on the sharpening station. I've found this much more agreeable functionally and required much less prime sharpening bench space.

I later realized that I probably should have tried making a mount for each strip that could be used much like the stones, stackable in storage, pulled out one by one; but by then I was happier with the stones.

[Dave Parkis]

Sean, I generally do not put a secondary bevel on my chisels, except for mortising chisels. I do have the luxury of having a LOT of chisels, so its easy for me to set different chisels with different bevels. Also (and I'm sure you already know this), NEVER put a micro/back bevel on a chisel.

[Mike Allen1010]

After using many different methods to sharpen and finally ending up with stone from Stu. I have decided that if you are going to spend good money on tools you should spend the same good money on stones.
Cheap stones are cheap and work cheap. Get a good set of stones. You will better off in the long run.

+1 for Dales comments. I started w/ King stones and after many years got the set of 3 f/ Stu- best tool $ I ever spent.

Achieving consistantly sharpe has never been easier and faster for. Me than w/ Stu'sstones
To me. Hand tool woodworking is all about sharpe and the investment you make in your sharpening system gets paid off everytime you use an edge tool.

David Weaver knows stones and sharpening better than anyone- if you're looking for acreative. Pragmaticadvice that can give you cost effective solutions. You would do well to follow his suggestions.

All the bestMike

[george wilson]

It is true that David Weaver has tried every stone out there!! I use a diamond stone to get rid of small nicks,then the black ceramic,then the white Spyderco 8" ceramic stone. There is some concern about having to dress off the white stones to get rid of the permanent ceramic "fuzz",and now,the circular looking cuts in some of them(apparently they look like they've been ripped on a table saw). I used my diamond stone with lots of water to dress my own white Spyderco. Perfectly happy with my stones. I,Too,have tried MANY stones,though not as many as David.(Became satisfied with my current setup and quit buying stones). Personally,I don't care for water stones. They always seemed to promote very light rusting on my chisels,but that's just my personal taste.

P.S.: I strop with a leather or MDF strop with LV green buffing compound for the final edge,which is razor sharp.

I think some of you worry too much about sharpening: There are many ways to do it,and many of the pieces I have posted here were made with now considered out dated stones.I used a Norton double sided India stone for years,with an Arkansas stone,and a strop. Then,I used the India stone followed by the then available Frictionite razor stones the whole time I was musical Instrument maker. Especially liked the Super Punjab. They are now quite valuable,though. I sent my NOS stones to David to sell. The old Dutch master cabinet maker would spit on his Belgian coticle that Woodcraft used to sell( a gross habit!) and sharpen his chisels like that. No strop. His work was not as good as mine,frankly,but he carved accurate shell carvings on his furniture that most less accomplished wood workers would be happy to achieve.

It ISN'T if you have a chisel that will split atoms. A sharp tool is necessary,BUT,it is the skill that you can bring to bear that is most important. It must be: Look at the work the Egyptians did with copper tools and try to do that!! Consider their fine furniture and Tut's mask.

[David Weaver]

Stu has some stones I'd still like to try, but they are a bit expensive for me in terms of synthetics at about $360. My curiosity about them extends more to razors than tools, though.

I did - in the last couple of months get a nice *huge* vintage coticule, got the winning bid on an 8x2 woodworker's delight washita on ebay (for $15!!) and have a south african natural stone on the way at some point. And a round "world hone" in its original box from am. hone co, which is uncommon.

I haven't yet seen a sharpening stone of any type that is as fine or finer than a soft arkansas that you can't coax into shaving hair quickly (with a chisel).

I have sold a bunch of george's old stones, though, nearly all of them to australian recreational axe-wielders, who are crazy about the now defunct American Hone Company products (Frictionites and Super Punjabs, etc). A hone slightly larger than a credit card and 5/8ths thick fetches >$200.

My fascination with stones has very little to do with woodworking, though, it's just a curious second hobby.

[george wilson]

You are a different kind of "stoner",David.

[Dave Parkis]

Sean, I generally do not put a secondary bevel on chisels. The exception is mortising chisels. I would also second Joshua's comment on stropping. You would be amazed at how much less often you need to use stones if you keep a strop handy and use it frequently. Plus, they are cheap and easy to make.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm surprised that no one here (read: Dave, Archie, Stu or I) has yet tried those Nutbatama's - I was looking at the 4k Ume one again today (pretty sure its magnesia despite the sellers annoying stubbornness not to tell anyone anything AT ALL about its composition).

I could use a mid grit stone periodically and may give that one a go one of these days, but at the moment I am trying really hard to resist buying stones and tools in favor of buying.......????








wait for it.......








wait for it....









...WOOD!

Its been really hard and I'm not confident that I won't blow my lumber money at the LN event this weekend.

[David Weaver]

I have a grudge against ken schwartz, not one from knowing the guy, just based on the wares. I think he sells middle of the road stuff overpriced, that's just my opinion. Thus nothing other than initial curiosity about them (nubatamas). Plus, the binder thing. Stu will tell me anything he knows about a stone, straight up. I asked in a youtube comment about one of the nubatama stones and got the "it's proprietary" answer.

I just kind of wonder if all of that stuff is just rebranded imanishi or something like that.

Is the LN event you're going to at Hearne? They can scare you right out of purchasing wood (not that they're rude, but they've got some creative terms - like boards with goofy grain are called "rustic grade" and priced like figured wood). There was a very small brazilian board there with a big knothole - with the knot long since gone- in the middle last time I was there, $2k. They did also have a super-choice old growth indian rosewood log, but that in log form was $125 a bd foot. they have wood that's at "i'm making it for someone else and writing it into the bill" prices, but they're good folks with honest advice and that's just their market, not us hobbyist after-tax-dollar tire kickers.

[Chris Griggs]

I went to Hearne for an LN event in October - this ones at a place called Philadelphia Woodworks. I think its some kind of school, but also a guild where you can become a member to use there equipment - all I know about this place is whats one there website (http://www.philadelphiawoodworks.com/). I'm pysched because it's only 15 min away from me - Hearne is like an hour and a half. Honestly, I didn't spend much time looking at the wood when I was at Hearne just because I was too distracted by LN and the other vendors. That, and I just don't care all that much about crazy figured exotic woods - I'm happy working basic North American hardwoods, and if I want figure I can find it in those.

I was planning on heading out to a place called Groffs lumber that Trevor told me about, that's about an hour from me and has pretty nice prices on domestic hardwoods, but it looks like this Philadelphia Woodworks place sell hardwood too. If they are competitively priced, perhaps I will just spend my lumber money as soon as I get there so that I won't have the option of blowing it on a tool.

Yeah, I have a bit of that grudge too - the whole "its proprietary" thing he said to you pissed me off. I'm not asking how to make the stone, I just want to know what the binder and the abrasive is - that's pretty basic information. When I bought from Stu, he told me what was in just about every stone he sells, and what that meant for how the stone behaved, it was very helpful information.

[Stuart Tierney]

I'm surprised that no one here (read: Dave, Archie, Stu or I) has yet tried those Nutbatama's - I was looking at the 4k Ume one again today (pretty sure its magnesia despite the sellers annoying stubbornness not to tell anyone anything AT ALL about its composition).



I get asked about them a lot. Too much actually.

Here's what I tell, and remember I try to be honest and inoffensive as possible.

I know where they come from, I know who makes them and they make stones for 'makers' in different guises.

I've watched some videos, and my opinion is that there is nothing about them that is earth shaking, revolutionary or special. What's being said about the stone and what I'm seeing don't match very well at all, and don't forget, I can grab a stone and a knife and have at it to see whether my opinion checks out as right or wrong.

In short, if you really want to try one, go right ahead. I won't stop you and I won't pass any judgement on you for doing so. But I'm in no rush to get any and try them (and I've had offers) because I can't see anything they do better than what's already available. Perhaps the only thing that is different is that they're available in bigger sizes which isn't that unusual, but shipping internationally anything more than a 'double-size' stone gets expensive real fast.

(Heck, if I took the gloves off a whole lot of folks would be in a heck of a lot of trouble. It's getting to the point that I can spot what a stone actually is and where it came from within a second or two, and what's worse, I've probably got the maker on speed dial. I kid you not. I've seen a 'fine stone' selling for a heck of a lot of money and it's been widely praised by the knife folks, the poor souls not realizing that in it's official 'clothes' it's a lot cheaper and isn't an orphan of a stone. Although that particular stone isn't popular around here...)

To be honest, I'm getting burned out on a lot of this kinda stuff. Just wearying...

Stu.

[Chris Griggs]

I can imagine that it wears you out... we all ask you the same questions over and over... Though I like to think that now that you offer your stones in packages that it saves you some amount of answering questions. Honestly, if those stones had been packaged when I bought from you I probably would have just bought them instead of sending you multiple long winded emails making you tell me everything about all the stones you sell. I will say in all honesty that you handle all this questioning and knitpickyness very well - you've put a lot of great information out there for "research minded" folks like me who need to know all the details on everything that's out there before making a purchase.

I don't doubt for second that the Nubatama's are not anything better than what already available. The only Nubatama that interests me is the 4k ume and only because I occasionally want a stone in the 3k-4k range, and I think it might be very similar to and a bit less expensive than a Cho 3k which I like. I most certainly do not have your ability to tell a lot about just by looking at a video, but the description and the video sure make me think that its hard magnesia stone (could be way off). I don't have dire need for another stone anyway - a 3k-4k is just something that might be nice to have once in a while, but I'm not getting my wallet out for any stone at this exact moment...there are other things I want/need much much more.

[David Weaver]

I can imagine that it wears you out...

What really wears him out is marathon argument emails with me! I agree with his comment about nothing new under the sun completely, though, how many ways can you bind silicon carbide or WA and market it as being super magic moonstone that cuts twice as fast and twice as fine as other stones (those two things together always raise an alarm).

I like the chosera 3k, it's an abrasive dense 4 micron stone. Particle size almost the same as the norton 8k, but fast like the shapton 5k (or faster) with a fresh surface. Very hard stone with no soaking, but nice feel if you soak it. I also like the shapton 5k, which has been partially panned, as the 6k mystery magnesia that fujibato was selling for dollar store prices.

I haven't used stu's 6k stone, but I have to think that if you have it and you make a low-water slurry, it's going to be just as fast as any of those stones, though, even if it's a little finer.

[Chris Griggs]

I haven't used stu's 6k stone, but I have to think that if you have it and you make a low-water slurry, it's going to be just as fast as any of those stones, though, even if it's a little finer.

Probably, it's a great stone and is what I currently use when I want a midway stone, and it is why I haven't yet bothered with a 3k-4k even though I probably mentioned wanting one to you some 6+ months ago - I think about and talk about buying many things, but only end up actually buying a handful of the things I think/say I might want...

I think the Cho 3k, not surprisingly, is faster but not in any way that would vastly improve my current sharpening setup...

I just need to run out and spend all my money on a big stack of clear cherry or walnut before my curiosity gets the best of me....

[David Weaver]

I think you're right. I'd like to say I'd buy the clear cherry instead, but I would probably just buy both. Which is dumb and wasteful.

You'll definitely need the cherry more than you'll need another stone.

[Chris Griggs]

This is the most rational conversation we've ever had...

Cherry indeed is what I need more than anything - there are some project from Tom Mosers Shaker furniture book and that Furniture in the Southern Style book by the PW guys that I really want to build this year, which will require a lot more wood than I currently have in my shop. Thanks for encouraging to spend money on what I really should, and what will actually help me to be a better woodworker. Although I have to admit even though I think I'll resist the temptations while at the LN even this weekend (probably), I may set just a little bit of money aside for some more saw parts (if Ron B still has them). I just got a little MF 200 miter box and would like to make an 18-20" miter saw for it. Although, I suppose I should actually finish the dovetail saw I'm working on first, not to mention the near complete book shelves that have been sitting in my shop for a couple months now.

[Paul McGaha]

I went to Hearne for an LN event in October - this ones at a place called Philadelphia Woodworks. I think its some kind of school, but also a guild where you can become a member to use there equipment - all I know about this place is whats one there website (http://www.philadelphiawoodworks.com/). I'm pysched because it's only 15 min away from me - Hearne is like an hour and a half. Honestly, I didn't spend much time looking at the wood when I was at Hearne just because I was too distracted by LN and the other vendors. That, and I just don't care all that much about crazy figured exotic woods - I'm happy working basic North American hardwoods, and if I want figure I can find it in those.

I was planning on heading out to a place called Groffs lumber that Trevor told me about, that's about an hour from me and has pretty nice prices on domestic hardwoods, but it looks like this Philadelphia Woodworks place sell hardwood too. If they are competitively priced, perhaps I will just spend my lumber money as soon as I get there so that I won't have the option of blowing it on a tool.

Yeah, I have a bit of that grudge too - the whole "its proprietary" thing he said to you pissed me off. I'm not asking how to make the stone, I just want to know what the binder and the abrasive is - that's pretty basic information. When I bought from Stu, he told me what was in just about every stone he sells, and what that meant for how the stone behaved, it was very helpful information.

Not to hijack the thread but I go to Groff and Groff lumber a couple of times per year. Beautiful country. Bunch of Amish farms in the area.

Nice people and good wood, fair prices.

http://www.groffslumber.com/

[Chris Griggs]

This thread was hijacked long ago...

Thanks for your input. I talked to them on the phone briefly a while back they seem like really nice, honest folks. I agree their prices seem very fair.

[Sean Walker]

Glad I could help everyone by starting this thread lol! I will try the scary sharp method and start a new thread if I have any questions.

Thanks again everyone.

[Adam Cruea]

Chris> Since you're in Philly, if you don't mind the drive, you might try World of Hardwoods near Baltimore. I realize it might be quite a trek, but just in case you're down around there.

Nice, talkative folks. The guy that gets the lumber (Bryan) worked very, very hard to get me the hickory I wanted for my bench top and he can order most things if he needs them.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris> Since you're in Philly, if you don't mind the drive, you might try World of Hardwoods near Baltimore. I realize it might be quite a trek, but just in case you're down around there.

Nice, talkative folks. The guy that gets the lumber (Bryan) worked very, very hard to get me the hickory I wanted for my bench top and he can order most things if he needs them.

Thanks Adam. Good to know - that is a bit of a trek, but its likely I'll find myself out that way one of these days and its always nice to be able to take advantage of a place like that if you happen to be near there.

I haven't actually bought any hardwood since I moved out here 4 or so months ago. I've been using what few nice pieces moved with me as well as a supply of "rustic" (read: lots of defects - some that give character some don't) walnut that my in-laws harvested from their property. Its nice for some projects and has kept me woodworking, but its definitely high time I head out to a hardwood dealer out here and get some wood for projects where that kind of character is less befitting. One can never have too much clear cherry!

[Harold Burrell]

Hi Sean,

If i were buying my first set of stones I'd buy these:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

PHM

Oh, man...

"Honey! I know what I want for Christmas!" :o

[Stuart Tierney]

Oh, man...

"Honey! I know what I want for Christmas!" :o

Me too. :D

(As in "I want you to get what you want for Christmas very, very much!")

Stu.

[Sean Walker]

Ok, looks like I'm back again and should have listend the first time lol. The scary sharp method works, but I want to move over to stones. I purchased a combo set of norton's (220/1000 and 4000/8000) but they are no where near flat. High in the middle and dip on the sides. I have tried flattening them on sand paper but after going through several sheets, they are still no where near flat. Is this common for waterstones? I understand that I may need to flatten them a little when I get them, but 2-3 hours to get all 4 sides (both combo stones) and a bunch of sandpaper is nuts IMO. I am looking at the King stones from lee valley or getting the shapton glass stones. Do you know if the King stones from Lee Valley come semi flat?

Thanks again for your help on this matter.

[Harold Burrell]

Ok, looks like I'm back again and should have listend the first time lol. The scary sharp method works, but I want to move over to stones. I purchased a combo set of norton's (220/1000 and 4000/8000) but they are no where near flat. High in the middle and dip on the sides. I have tried flattening them on sand paper but after going through several sheets, they are still no where near flat. Is this common for waterstones? I understand that I may need to flatten them a little when I get them, but 2-3 hours to get all 4 sides (both combo stones) and a bunch of sandpaper is nuts IMO. I am looking at the King stones from lee valley or getting the shapton glass stones. Do you know if the King stones from Lee Valley come semi flat?

Thanks again for your help on this matter.

Everything you need:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

It comes with a diamond stone to flatten. And...as of right now...the yen is down, so you can get it $50 cheaper than I did.

[David Wong]

I do not use Norton stones, but flattening should take a minute or so. You should soak the 220/1000 to make it softer when flattening. Try using 80 grit paper for initial flattening. Draw pencil lines across the entire surface of the stones so you can see your progress as you go. Glue down the sandpaper on a flat surface and move the stones over the paper.

[Sean Walker]

I read online to keep them dry when flattening them to remove stock faster. Maybe i should try them wet and see if it makes a difference.

[Adam Cruea]

Makes a huge difference, at least with a diamond plate.

And I will actively urge you to stay away from the King stones. I found my 8000 to be small, almost too small. As in, my irons for my #7 (and similarly sized) barely fit onto them. My 8000 also felt extremely soft.

Seriously, go for Harold's link and get the water stones from Stu. If I remember right, I plopped $430 down for my stones, and I don't regret it one bit. I actually wish I'd have known about Stu's water stones so I could have saved money in the long run and not bought honing compound and an 8K King.

[Jim Koepke]

Care needs to be utilized when flattening stones or blades. It is easy to rock the item and not change the profile one bit.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

Ok, looks like I'm back again and should have listend the first time lol. The scary sharp method works, but I want to move over to stones. I purchased a combo set of norton's (220/1000 and 4000/8000) but they are no where near flat. High in the middle and dip on the sides. I have tried flattening them on sand paper but after going through several sheets, they are still no where near flat. Is this common for waterstones? I understand that I may need to flatten them a little when I get them, but 2-3 hours to get all 4 sides (both combo stones) and a bunch of sandpaper is nuts IMO. I am looking at the King stones from lee valley or getting the shapton glass stones. Do you know if the King stones from Lee Valley come semi flat?


Yes it is completely normal for stones to come out of flat, but even if they are REALLY out of flat they should only take a few minutes to flatten. What grit sandpaper are you using? If you can't find coarse enough wet wet/dry you can dry some coarse drywall sanding screen. Better yet, get some coarse silicon carbide or a diamond plate (if you you have the extra scratch). One problem I always had with flattening on sandpaper is that it would actually introduce convexity into the stone, since it wears in the center quicker then the edges. I much prefer a diamond plate or silicon carbide. You can get a pound of coarse SiC on ebay for less than $10 (for example search item 230939860309) it will last quite a while.

Another potential source of your problem, could be that since the stones came convex you may be rocking them when flattening. If the stones are convex lap straight back and forth in the direction of the stones length instead of the usually recommended circular motion. Otherwise it is very easy to simply make maintain the convexity or even make it worse.


I read online to keep them dry when flattening them to remove stock faster. Maybe i should try them wet and see if it makes a difference.

Yes, soak them first. This may be the source of your problem.

[Wilbur Pan]

Yes it is completely normal for stones to come out of flat, but even if they are REALLY out of flat they should only take a few minutes to flatten. What grit sandpaper are you using? If you can't find coarse enough wet wet/dry you can dry some coarse drywall sanding screen. Better yet, get some coarse silicon carbide or a diamond plate (if you you have the extra scratch). One problem I always had with flattening on sandpaper is that it would actually introduce convexity into the stone, since it wears in the center quicker then the edges. I much prefer a diamond plate or silicon carbide. You can get a pound of coarse SiC on ebay for less than $10 (for example search item 230939860309) it will last quite a while.

I use an Atoma 400 grit diamond plate for flattening waterstones. The nice thing about diamond plates for this purpose is that they will stay flat, so you don't have the convexity issue. Here's why I like the Atoma (http://giantcypress.net/post/41860013521/atoma-bomb) more so than other diamond plates.

I also shot a quick video showing how easy it is to flatten a waterstone with a diamond plate. You can see it here: http://giantcypress.net/post/668546073/japanese-tools-are-traditionally-sharpened-with