How Important Is The Door Cripple?

[Julie Moriarty]

We have a 6' patio door that needs replacing. The rough opening required for the existing door is smaller than most manufacturers require. We bought an Andersen 400 series glider and to fit it in we need to remove the existing 2x4 cripples and replace them with 1x4s. Directly above the door is the roof. There is no other floor above the door so the load on the header is only the roof.

Are there any structural issues created by removing the existing 2x4 cripples and replacing them with 1x4s?

Thanks,
Julie

[David Gutierrez]

The cripple is holding the header over the door and it should be a full 2x4. i would not recommend using a 1x tro replace it.

[Andy Fox]

It sounds like you're referring to the jack or trimmer studs rather than the cripples. The trimmers are on both sides of the door, while the cripples run between the header and the top plate. The trimmers on the sides of the door are supporting all of the weight of the header and whatever weight is on the header on that 6' span. Sometimes, even more than one cripple is required, so it's not something you'd want to replace with a 1x4.

[Brett Bobo]

From a structural perspective, the cripples (jack) studs are not required as long as the mechanical connection is adequate for the header/king stud interface. Generally speaking and as you've probably seen now, the header is simply toe-nailed into the king studs, which is likely not acceptable in the absence of the cripple studs per local codes or even the IRC. That's not to say that structurally toe-nails aren't sufficient but personally, I wouldn't rely on just that as my connection even though toe-nailing has a capacity.

As you proposed, I would definitely add the 1x4's for bearing of the header. If available, choose #2 grade material or better. Also, depending on how many toe-nails are present, consider toe-screwing 3" deck screws on the top and bottom of the header, as well into the face of the header.

For reference, Simpson makes a HUC concealed flange hanger for this application but it requires the hanger to be installed prior to the header. It's another option but I assume you don't want to remove the header as well.

[Gregory King]

Julie, our building code calls for a beam or lintel to have a minimum of 1.5" of end bearing on each end. In my daughter' s new home. the contractor moved a jack stud by half of its thickness [.75"] to make a wall line up better. As soon as the building inspector noticed that, he wanted it fixed. Since we wanted to install drywall over that area, and the contractor was off for the week-end, I changed out the beam length to satisfy the problem. Greg

[Julie Moriarty]

We are hoping to be able to make alterations that would not harm the structural integrity and not require the replacement of the header. Right now, there is (1) 2x4 under the header on each side of the door opening. Since it's drywall on the inside and exterior sheathing on the outside, I can't see how the header is secured to the king studs. Based on what we've seen here, my guess is with 16d nails.

We have a 9' patio door on the first floor and had to replace the entire header. The carpenter was supposed to thru-bolt a 1/2" steel plate between the 2x12s to make up that header. Instead he inserted 1/2" pieces of plywood as spacers and the header ended up sagging in the middle. Replacing that was a HUGE job! So we're keeping our fingers crossed we don't have to do that with the 6' door.

[Julie Moriarty]

What about a mending plate? If we opened up the drywall on the inside and secured a mending plate between the joist and king stud, would that work? Or would we need the plate on both sides?

http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/categories/MP.gif

[Brett Bobo]

Unfortunately, no. The mending plates are not for structural applications.

What you can consider is a Simpson angle, like the A33 or A44, which is installed on the underside of the header and into the face of the king stud. I'd still recommend installing the 1x4's as bearing for the header as well.

Just to confirm, this doesn't require a permit or a part of a larger renovation project requiring a permit? I assume the 9' header replacement was permitted and you received a sealed detail for the flitch beam header.

[Jim Andrew]

About 40 years ago, on my first job as an employee, the boss would replace 2x4's with 1x4's if a window or door would not fit. The building still looks fine.

[Julie Moriarty]

I just removed a piece of drywall to see what's there.

When you enlarge it you can clearly see a gap between the cripple and the 2x4 nailed to the bottom of the header. So the cripple is pretty useless as far as being load bearing. It's been that way for 26 years.

[John Fabre]

I would tear it all out to do it right, what's the cost of 2"x4"s and 2"x6"s. Holmes would roll his eyes if he sees that.

[Lee Schierer]

I agree, do it right. In your area you can get lots of snow which can add tremendous loads to the roof. I wouldn't take a chance of the door breaking due to snow loads and needing to be replaced in the middle of winter.

From you photo it appears that the header is either nailed into the end through the stud or possibly not nailed at all.

[Patrick McCarthy]

From your picture, i have to assume the 4x header material is attached to the king stud by 16p nails driven horizonally thru the king (2x4 from sill plate to top plate). It does not appear to have been toenailed from this side . . . run your fingers into the opening or cut a bit more drywall to see. Also, if you find a mistake at this end, you know what you are likely to find at the other end.

I also assume the 2 horizontal 2x4's are filler/nailer for the drywall, rather than structural.

I just went thru this to replace a sagging 12' header at my home. So, easy for me to say:If my house, i would (did) open everything up and reframe for the new unit. Also, it turned out my 60's vintage ranch had R/O height of 81 rather than 82 needed for the new Marvin sliders.

Alternatively, depending upon your load, and after verifying the header is solidly nailed to the king stud (king goes plate to plate, whereas jack goes bottom of header to sill plate), you could tightly fit a kiln dried 1x into the place where the current "trimmer" or jack is.

Views differ, but in long run i believe it is best to do it once, do it right, and sleep easily thereafter . . . . . and this is true regardless of whether you are staying long term or not.YMMV

[Jay Jolliffe]

You could always put lag bolts through the king stud into the header if you don't want to rip it all out.

[Jim Andrew]

shim shingle

[Peter Quinn]

So you want to remove the jack studs on a 6' opening and replace them with 1X material? This strikes me as not such a good plan generally. Try these instead.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/hh.asp

[Clint Baxter]

I agree with Peter. You can alway put the 1x underneath the connector as well for additional support. Keep in mind though that you need to fill every hole in the connectors with the specified fasteners in order for it to meet it's design specs.

Clint

[Julie Moriarty]

So you want to remove the jack studs on a 6' opening and replace them with 1X material? This strikes me as not such a good plan generally. Try these instead.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/hh.asp

I like the HH connector. I was looking for something like that on the Simpson website. Thanks for finding it for me!

[michael case]

I been in the renovation business a long time. I'm always coming across poorly done work. We rip it out and do it right. Whoever framed that in the first place was a slob. Don't be slob. Just do it right and sleep tight at night.

[Chris Friesen]

I've seen cases where they put a fat header in but there really wasn't any load on it.

[Peter Quinn]

I've seen cases where they put a fat header in but there really wasn't any load on it.


Was wondering the same myself. Is this in a bearing wall, a gable wall? Is it a hipped roof? A crew starts framing, making up headers, might just make one to fill the space to the plate or to match the others so they all get done at once. Or it might be structural. I like the connector because you are covered either way, and you can always pack out the opening with 1X or as needed to meet the RO anyway. I'm in the middle of building a simple two story garage of my own design and have thus been pouring over framing manuals, span charts, spent way too much time on the simpson site! That could be better organized. I've never given the structure so much consideration.

In the main house, a bungalow kit of early 1900's vintage, I've found a number of openings where they put the jack studs on the outside of the kings. Yup, they nailed a solid 4X header through the kings with monster nails, 24D? Look like rail road spikes. Then they nailed the jacks to the outside of the kings. THey jacks are exactly the right height to go under the headers, they just didn't put them there. Makes me scratch my head, probably made them scratch theirs at the time too. I'm told many New England timber framers at the time had a tough time making the transition to stick framing.

Imagine the conversation. "Hey Bob, the plans call for two extra studs on each door opening, but they sent them all a bit short, whad da ya think I should do?".........."Well, just nail them on the other side there, less material for us to carry away that way".

They don't make them like they used to. In some cases they make them much better.