Finish questions for first cherry project

[Jason Zahn]

Hello All,

I'm brand new to the site, and let me say first and foremost that the amount of information and interaction here is just incredible, and I'm really looking forward to being part of it.

Well, here's the deal...I'm new to woodworking, and am currently getting started on a side table that I am going to build for my parents for Christmas. The table top will be 4/4 cherry, and the legs and rails are black walnut.

I have a couple of questions regarding finishing both the cherry and the walnut, neither of which I've had the chance to work with yet.

First off, after the stock is planed etc., would it be adequate to go ahead and start ROS sanding with 120, 150, 180 for the top, legs, and rails, or should the cherry and walnut be taken up to 220?

Secondly, as far as finishes go, I'd appreciate some input: I was planning on using BLO on the cherry top, let it dry for 48 hrs or so, then follow that with a coat of pre-mixed shellac (possibly zinsser). How many coats of shellac would 'typically' be used, and, would it be appropriate to then utilize a final top coat of water based satin poly over the shellac. (Not sure if the poly-acrylic product can be used over shellac??). What I'm looking for is a natural finish for the cherry that will look nice with the black walnut.

Concerning the black walnut, what type of finish would you all use with that? I don't really want to darken the walnut and increase the contrast between it and the cherry, although the contrast won't be such an issue I suppose as the cherry takes on its natural darkening with age.

Any thought, experiences, and advise would be MUCH appreciated. Thanks!

[sheldon pettit]

Hello Jason, i would keep it simple as possible and just use tung oil 100% pure and forget the others. This will provide a very nice look, and easy repair and renewal as time goes by. Of course that is one finishers opinion, I'm sure others will chime in over time today :)

[Jason Zahn]

Hello Jason, i would keep it simple as possible and just use tung oil 100% pure and forget the others. This will provide a very nice look, and easy repair and renewal as time goes by. Of course that is one finishers opinion, I'm sure others will chime in over time today :)

Hey, thanks for the input....Tung Oil on the Walnut, as well??

[sheldon pettit]

YEP, both, of course you can dye the walnut and orange yellow first since that is what it will eventually become over time, but that's your decision ok?

[Prashun Patel]

Sheldon is the pro, so I defer to his suggestion; tung oil is indeed the simplest solution.

However, if the table is going to get moderate use, then IMHO, the easiest way to a durable finish is a wipe-on varnish. For natural color finishes, I like to sand all the way up to 400, but some say it's not necessary. I just get a better feeling finish quicker when I do that.

A great wipe on varnish is Waterlox Original Sealer Finish (Original Formula). It's a tad pricey. You basically pour a small bit in a lintfree rag, then wipe it on. It should only take a few coats until you reach an even semigloss sheen.

It's durable, and IMHO its amber color brings out the best in cherry and walnut.

Shellac is a great product, but if this is yr first time, then I'd say don't give yourself any of the frustrations that come with shellac yet.

BLO is also used by many as a colorant under film finishes. However, I have found that it can affect the drying time and hardness of subsequent top coats. That's just my own anecdotal experience - not conventional wisdom. Under most oil-based film finishes or shellac, it's just not noticeable, IMHO. I say skip that step.

Last, cherry and walnut both have amazing color under any finish. To color them is unnecessary in most cases.

[sheldon pettit]

Prashun may not have my expertise, but i value his input always :)

I was taking into consideration that it was for your parents and they probably would not be intentionally abusing it and that they could fix any minor damages themselves with a little sanding and re-application of the tung, which you could supply them with. That said, if you think it will or may recieve harder use and need the extra protection Prashun is reccomending, by all means do so. I also say stay away from linseed oil for a finish.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'll duck the varnish/oil/finish issue.

I vote early and often for Sheldon's point about an orange-ish dye on the walnut, or at least some garnet or orange shellac as the first finish coat. Remarkable what that does for the walnut.

Understand, also, that walnut is the weird duck in the pond - it lightens over the years, as opposed to the cherry that darkens.

[Jason Zahn]

Thank you all for the input and suggestions.

The table, though I'm sure it will be cared for gently by my parents, will be around kids, so a little extra protection probably wouldn't hurt.

I'll go with the consensus to stay away from BLO. If I choose to go with the Waterlox wiping varnish, I wouldn't need a final top coat of an additional product after several coats of that, correct, Prashun?
Sounds like that would be a relatively simple route for a beginner like me?

Sheldon/Kent- can you guys reccomend any specific dyes and/or shellac in the case that I end up going that route on this, or another piece?

[Prashun Patel]

Waterlox is a topcoat - even though it's called a "Sealer Finish". You can use it and nothing else on top.

Waterlox is quite a bit more 'amber' than other varnishes, so you might (as I do) find Waterlox provides just the right amount of color to both walnut and new cherry.

If you are set on dyeing the walnut (I would not dye the cherry) then you can use an 'amber' aniline dye. Know, though, that typically people dye walnut when they are putting a waterbased topcoat on it. Waterbased topcoats tend to have less yellow in them vis-a-vis oilbased finishes or shellac, which means they can lack 'warmth'. Oil topcoats impart some amber on their own; and Waterlox is quite a bit darker than most other varnishes.

Aniline dyes - like shellac - are wonderful tools in the arsenal. If you are going to be doing many more projects, I highly suggest you get both and start playing - on scraps and test pieces. For this first project, though, I suggest you keep it simple. It will look WONDERFUL without any dye or shellac, and will also provide a great baseline for the future.

If anything, I would take your piece and sand it to 400, and then let it bask in the sun for a week. That will kickstart the cherry into darkening. Then finish it.

[sheldon pettit]

All good suggestions, I to prefer to let nature take it's coarse with both woods and turn color naturally, if fact if you can sunburn the cherry longer than a week even better, especially in colder weather where the sun is not as potent as in the summer months.

[Jason Zahn]

Thanks again guys...one final question, would it be routine for you to sand cherry and walnut all the way to 400, or is that due to the 'natural' finish I'll be applying? Most posts I read prior talked mainly about sanding only to 220 max. Thanks!

[Prashun Patel]

Sanding past 220 (and even 150 or 180 on some woods) begins to burnish the wood. This reduces its ability to absorb anything. This is bad if you are trying to color the wood, since dyes and stains require adequate penetration. Topcoats, however - even oil (at least that's my contrarian view) - do not require deep penetration to do their protection job. In this case, it has been my experience that sanding to 320 or 400 actually helps the first couple topcoats go on more evenly than if only sanded coarser. There are anecdotes of people who sand up to 1000 before putting on a topcoat. You have to pick what feels right to you.

For strict oil or oil/varnish (i.e., in-the-wood) finishes, sanding to finer grits really helps in getting a silky soft feel in the end product. However, I will say that I have noticed on a piece of quilted maple I'm working on now that when sanded to 400 and then oiled, the figure did not seem to accentuate as well as I thought it should. When I sanded back to 150, and started applying the oil, I got better results.

For film-forming wipe-on or straight varnishes or even shellac, sanding to 400 helps those first few coats go on smoother and even. In the end, it allows me to put on less finish and still achieve an even sheen - which looks best (to me).

In the end, perhaps on this project you shld go with conventional wisdom and sand to 220. Again, you won't go wrong, and it'll provide a baseline should you decide in the future to deviate up or down in grit prep.

If it were me, and this were my first, here's the sched I'd follow (it's more or less similar to what was recommended in a recent article in FWW):

sand all parts before assembly: 100, 150, 220
Wipe or brush on a good coat of Waterlox or equivalent (after an hour or two, wipe off any pooling). Let dry overnight.
Sand all parts gently again with 220 until smooth. Wipe off debris
Wipe on two more thin coats of Waterlox (let dry over night in between)
Sand all parts gently again with 400 until smooth. Wipe of debris.
Wipe on two more thin coats of Waterlox (let dry over night in between)
Sand all parts with 600 until smooth. Wipe off debris.
Wipe on one more thin coat of Waterlox.

Done this way, you can get a professional looking/feeling finish with minimal fuss.

To each his own.

[Jason Zahn]

Prashun, thanks so much for the info and advice. I was thinking something along the lines of your proposed finishing schedule, but that clarifies a lot for me and gives me something more concrete to go by. I'm sure I'll have more newbie questions as I get started...

jason

[sheldon pettit]

Every job i have done that were my clients i have sanded to a minimum of 320, no matter what finish i'm using. I have been writing a book and i address the sanding verses finish among other things that are right yet also wrong, i call the chapter "myth" information, with subtitles of myth-conceptions/myth understandings/etc., this is one of those i label myth-understandings :)

Most of the wood finishing industry does sand to anywhere from 150/180/220 at most. but there is a good reason for such and it's not wrong, but it only applies to facets concerning time/labor/choice of finishing materials/and how all of those are used and applied. If anyone wants to sand further and use the correct materials to achieve the desired end results, then there is no real limit past those abrasives available that one can choose to use.

For the industrial wood finishing companies that want or need to achieve a color using pigment stains, sanding past 150 grit can lighten the color to an unacceptable degree, that applies to home owners and hobbyist also. In those cases, they or you are not wrong at stopping there or even coarser if necessary if that's all you have to stain with or what you want to use ok?

On the other-hand, if those companies or you used dyes to obtain the bulk of the ground color and then applied the pigment stain over it to be in or to warm up that ground colored dye, you could easily go as fine as 220-320 or in Prashun's case 400. The industrial companies also try to use higher solids coatings normally, for this reason, they prefer more tooth to increase penetration and adhesion of those coatings no matter what they are. But it's very simple to over thin/reduce any coating, even polyester to the point where it is able to soak in a polished surface like a few pen makers who sand to 12,000 - yes 12,000 grit and apply cyanoacrylate glues as there finish which will readily penetrate any wood and have excellent adhesion and polish up very high,.

Does that mean everyone should do this? of course not, but if all three things are in proper relation to each other, there is really no limit as to how fine you can abrade wood to and still get a good finish with all the necessary attributes. Every manufacturer has his reasons for finishing the way they do, it's not wrong, but like most things it is "faceted information" that pertain to a certain set of desired circumstances and needs they have to do so ok? The "myth" is that because that's become the acceptable norm, or prep gospel, most everyone else follows suite and ends up with a diminished result compared to someone who experiments outside the box like myself or even Prashun. Don't get me wrong i test all my methods or did in the past to make sure just as the big guys do, there were no risk of finish failure past doing it the acceptable or recommended ways, or unneeded liabilities with doing such, i'm no fool, and i hate re-doing any work because of faulty methods or materials or preparation faults. I won't go any further but someday you can see the whole picture when my book is ready to publish ok? :)


Meanwhile, Prashun's methods will be just fine if you also thin the first coat down say 1 part finish to 9 parts reducer and apply, brush out and let soak in and then remove any excess that's still on the surface after a few minutes or so, when that has dried use it full strength from there on out ok?

[Prashun Patel]

...if you also thin the first coat down say 1 part finish to 9 parts reducer and apply, brush out and let soak in and then remove any excess that's still on the surface after a few minutes or so, when that has dried use it full strength from there on out ok?

(Humbly) Waterlox OSF is (unlike their other formulations) already thinned to be a wipe-on varnish. In my experience it requires no thinning even on raw wood.

Also, I highly recommend finishing before assembly - EXCEPT for those parts that require post-assembly sanding to bring them flush. Pre-finishing like this makes the process easier (no corners to get into) and also seals the wood so that glue squeeze out during assembly is easily removed.

[Kent A Bathurst]

- can you guys reccomend any specific dyes and/or shellac in the case that I end up going that route on this, or another piece?

Dunno what Sheldon has to say....I get the impression that he sneaks out into the wilderness at the dead of night under a new moon, and mines secret ores and collects secret flora and makes his own stuff. :p Kind of a Hogwarts thing, I think. Or, maybe more like the 3 Witches scene from Macbeth..........


Me - one of the proles - I use Transfast powdered dyes, mixed with water. Available at many stores, or from the source: Homestead Finishing. There are other reputable suppliers of dye as well - zero experience with them. I do have, however, experience with the liquid Transtint dyes.......and I turned to the Transfast powder some years ago, and greatly prefer them.

Personally, I make my own shellac from flakes.....also from Homestead. There is a variety of other shellac flake suppliers that have proponents here, and I have no cause to argue with them. I simply have always been very happy with the stuff I get, and have no reason to make a change.

EDIT: Oh, yeah - re: Prashun's comment on W'lox. I am more of a Behlen's Rockhard user, and from what I understand, it is even a bit more amber than the W'lox. Also, I just completed a couple curly maple hall tables dyed with vintage dk maple, and then P+L #38, which is much clearer than either. But.....I did not do as well with it - first time at bat on the #38 - it's application properties are noticeably different than the other two - to me at least - so I need more time on that horse to keep from falling off.

[Prashun Patel]

Jason-
Kent's right: in full disclosure I am a Waterlox fan. There are a few other fantastic varnishes out there. I've never used Behlen's RH but hear wonderful things about it. The drawback for me is that it only comes full strength, and does not seem to like mineral spirits as a reducer (Kent, pls confirm that...) which means you have to get their special reducer also. Waterlox too makes full strength varnishes, but I find they too don't apply as well when thinned with MS as does the Waterlox OSF out of the can. Last, Waterlox OSF goes on high gloss but cures over a matter of weeks to a semigloss sheen. The ease of use (whether brushed or wiped), sheen, and flow makes the extra price worth it for me. Many ways to skin the cat.

One more complication to beware of: Waterlox Original Sealer Finish comes in 2 formulations: ORIGINAL FORMULA (which is not VOC compliant) and VOC Compliant formulation. The dealers of even reputable sources might not be aware of the difference. I have only used the ORIGINAL formula and have heard that the new formula is not as easy to use.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Prashun -

Again, one of them things where I have chosen not to fool with what works for me. I was advised early on by Scott "Obi-Wan" Holmes that he found W'lox worked fine with M/S as a reducer, but that he felt the Behlen's proprietary reducer worked better in the Behlen's than did M/S. So - that is all I have ever used. And - I thin in the 15 - 20 pct range for brushing, and 50 pct for wipe on. Final finish is fine, regardless of reduction and application method. In fact, I don't think I could ever brush it at less than, say, 10 pct. I just add a "glurg" or so of reducer until it hits a consistency in the cup that I like as I am brushing.

But, at the same time, if you look at the price differential of W'lox + M/S versus Behlens + their reducer, it is basically pick'em on a dollar-for-dollar basis. When I order, I just order both the varnish and the reducer, so both are always on the shelf.

Zero gripe with W'lox. I just ain't the guy to ask about that critter.

One thing - the Behlens comes only in gloss - and it seems to me to retain that gloss. I had one big project where the client wanted satin/matte, and rubbing out an entire dining room was not practical. I used Behlens to build the finish, and then W'lox satin reduced to wipe-on as the last thin coat. Honestly made me gag to do that, but the client was ecstatic with the results, and she was paying the freight, so what do I know? One of those things where - literally -you get what you pay for. "Yes, Ma'am. I can do that, Ma'am".

[sheldon pettit]

(Humbly) Waterlox OSF is (unlike their other formulations) already thinned to be a wipe-on varnish. In my experience it requires no thinning even on raw wood.

Also, I highly recommend finishing before assembly - EXCEPT for those parts that require post-assembly sanding to bring them flush. Pre-finishing like this makes the process easier (no corners to get into) and also seals the wood so that glue squeeze out during assembly is easily removed.

LOL :), sorry Prashun i got slightly carried away in stating "any Coating", almost all industrial coatings users as well as most custom shops, do-not use off the shelf slow-dry coatings like varnishes or oils,etc.. they rarely either brush or wipe except if absolutely necessary. In business, time is money, and the biggest obstacle to overcome to be profitable is mainly why. At times i forget that when commenting here and elsewhere :) But that does not negate the fact that even an already thin coating as what you speak of can be further thinned if needed to achieve more penetration into the surface if and when it is abraded to even finer grits than you have tried as yet. Give it a try sometime when you are between other projects and test to see ok? :)

[Jason Zahn]

Sheldon, Prashun, and Kent...thanks guys for some great input and insight into these different finishes; I feel much more prepared to go
on with this project. I think I'm probably leaning towards going with the Waterlox this time around as a matter of keeping things simpler since I'm not very experienced :)

I'll let you know how things work out.

Thank you all!!

[sheldon pettit]

""Dunno what Sheldon has to say....I get the impression that he sneaks out into the wilderness at the dead of night under a new moon, and mines secret ores and collects secret flora and makes his own stuff. :p Kind of a Hogwarts thing, I think. Or, maybe more like the 3 Witches scene from Macbeth..........""

LOL, Thanks Kent, I'll add that to the list of other things i've been called including "Alchemist" :)

As to Dye's and Shellac, There are only a small number of both world wide, Most all of the dyes and lac/shellac sold through the many retail or consumer market companies, including homestead, are merely buyers and re-distributors of the manufacturers of the products, either selling them in smaller quantities as purchased, or coming up with their own lines of premixed offerings of colors they have further formulated themselves. . This is mostly true of everything else we buy here anymore. Lac, as i'm sure you already know comes from only 3-4 places mainly that are of any real consequence, where it's harvested twice per year. India being the largest as of now and in the past. After harvesting and preliminary steps are done to remove the dye color that is used for dyeing fabrics mainly and the dross and lac bug bodies etc, it is called seed-lac, this is the base product used by everyone to further refine if needed or desired to make all the other lac products. And this is the difference in what is offered as the final product categories we purchase, based on what we read about each of the types characteristics ok? I could write a book on the processing and history of shellac, but hopefully what I'm writing now will suffice the average finishing forum participant.

What is mainly important about lac is how it's processed, if the different solutions and chemicals of the lac industry are used, as has been for along time and still today, the lac becomes inferior to the solvent method and filtration methods used by other countries like Germany where bleaching is done by filtration and not chlorine therefore eliminating chloride binding which affects shelf-life of the end products. This along with other unused practices of old give a longer solubility life to the end product ranging from 5-7 years as compared to the long time older methods used which cut the shelf-life down to 2-3 tears at most. Now in no way does this mean that the Indian lacs are inferior as to their end uses, just that it degrades much quicker when stored. On the other-hand, lac that is the least processed at all, be it German or Indian etc., has proven itself still soluble after 2-3 decades in some instances if kept in air tight containers, i know i have some :) but it requires using either the seed lac or at most the button lac to start with to achieve such life-spans and refining it yourself from scratch, that's why i started doing such in the late 70's and improved my processes as i studied the chemistry and making of lac products as was known then.

Everything from the types of solvents and types of filtering to remove color make for differing results as to the end product used, but once you have that figured out and down, then you can produce the finest shellac that can be had for your personal use. Since there is quite some expense in setting up to do so, i will not go into details, but just know no matter what lacs you buy, or from whom, or what color you may prefer, that any hype you may read is just that, Both methods will give the same attributes as to hardness and gloss if fresh and their other known attributes also. Who you buy it from or prefer makes no real difference accept maybe in it being as fresh as possible. Then why do i process my own? LOL, because mine is superior!!

HOGWART, over and out :):p

[Kent A Bathurst]

....I could write a book on the processing and history of shellac....

.....Then why do i process my own? LOL, because mine is superior!! .......

HOGWART, over and out :):p



Fair enough, Sheldon. You are now officially known as Professor Dumbledore.

1. You write the book, I will buy an autographed copy.
2. You process your own shellac, eh? Imagine my surprise. I would have thought you went to India and harvested your own lac, to be honest. More likely, you even have your own proprietary trees, populated by your own proprietary stash of lac colonies.

I read, with great anticipation, every word of every one of your posts. You inhabit somewhere far, far outside of my planetary plane, which makes it even more interesting.

You absolutely slay me, so please keep up the good work, Professor.

Best regards;

The Proletariat.

[Jason Zahn]

Thank you guys very much for all of the information and recommendations...I feel much more informed about all of this. I think to make it somewhat simple and ease me into it, so to speak, I'm going to give the Waterlox route a try and see how that works out. Seems like it my be the more straightforward method for me to start out with, i.e., I'll have less (notice I didn't say 'no chance' :)) of screwing it up!

I'll let you know how it turns out, and post a few pics when I get things rolling.

Again, THANK YOU! :)

[sheldon pettit]

Thank you guys very much for all of the information and recommendations...I feel much more informed about all of this. I think to make it somewhat simple and ease me into it, so to speak, I'm going to give the Waterlox route a try and see how that works out. Seems like it my be the more straightforward method for me to start out with, i.e., I'll have less (notice I didn't say 'no chance' :)) of screwing it up!

I'll let you know how it turns out, and post a few pics when I get things rolling.

Again, THANK YOU! :)

Have fun jason and enjoy yourself, mistakes are what knowledge is born upon.

SAm.... opsss. professor dumbledorf, at your service :)

[Jon Grider]

First my disclaimer, Sheldon and Prashun certainly have more knowledge and experience than me and I'm not giving my input to contradict anything they have said; I'm merely stating what works pretty well for me on the cherry projects I have made, and what is readily available for me at the local home improvement store. I sand to 220, then flood the cherry with clear Danish oil and after 20 minutes wipe off the excess. I do the Danish oil thing twice and then let it cure for 3 days. I then apply 2-4 coats of satin wipe on polyurethane following the directions on the can, sanding lightly between all coats. This is probably not a purists technique, but I do like the way it looks by combing the penetrating oil and poly overcoat.

[sheldon pettit]

And that's all that really matters Jon, if you like the outcome and the service life of the end product then be my guest :)