How would you saw the lid for this box?

[Derek Cohen]

I am building a storage/presentation box for the bridle plough plane I build several months ago. Its going to get damaged if I leave it lying on a shelf. The box is 11" high and wide, and 12" long. Construction is half blind dovetailed sides and floating panels for the base and top.


The aim is to be able to open the lid to access the plane from the front (i.e. not have to lift it out). Irons will be stored vertically in slots at the rear.


Because of the height of the box, the lid needs to be sawn at an angle (rather than square). This is where the difficulty comes in.


This is a loose dry fit. The tape represents the angle of the lid/base.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Box2.jpg


Do I assemble and glue the sides/top, and then saw the box apart (which I have done with many smaller boxes? If so, how would you do this? It is not a simple task.


Alternately, would you saw the pieces before assembly? This would, I assume, require the box to be fitted without glue, marked, disassembled and sawn. Yes?


The easiest cut is a coplanar one, that is, a straight line. My preferred cut would be at right angles at the front and back, with a the diagonal linking them. That is only possible, I imagine, if the pieces are cut in disassembled form? Frankly, I'm not sure how I could do that.


Ideas folks?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[george wilson]

Can you just cut it with a bandsaw with tilted table,using the fence? With a good,sharp blade,the cut would be accurate enough to just clean up with a plane,OR,sand the halves afterward with a large surface plate with 4 sheets of sandpaper glued down to it.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi George

That is how I have done square cuts on boxes to date. Using a fence makes it easy enough. I am not that confident of getting the accuracy cutting on an angle - but it may be straightforward if I build a guide to keep the box tracking straight.

I am interested how one would saw the sides if they were not coplanar but squared to the sides at each end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Belair]

Hi Derek

I've considered cutting similar deep boxes apart on the diagonal and then bailed out and just made the lid very deep so I could easily lift out, in my case, the Stanley 45 and Record 043 plows.

The tricky part is of course the transition from the right angle cuts front and back and the diagonal on the sides. I'd probably use a (curved blade) azebiki against a batten to start the diagonal cut in the middle of the sides. Then work towards the previously made right angle cuts front and back.

Make any sense?

Jim B

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

George's method is what I'd use if I had a well tuned bandsaw I trusted.

I'd also be tempted to cut just one set of sides, most likely doing both at the same time using the bandsaw, then assemble the box, and then use the kerfs in the sides to cut the remaining sides. I'd go slow working my way around the box rather than cutting all of one side in one go, and use wedges or shims in the kerf as I went around to keep the thing from cracking or the saw from binding or going adrift.

[george wilson]

I don't see how this is difficult using a bandsaw with a fence. You can easily hold the box on the table and tilt it till the angle matches the blade,or am I missing something?

[Sam Murdoch]

Do I understand that you are trying to cut this shape at the front and back of your very nice box? If so this would answer George's question and leave me no closer to an answer. Though you've got me thinking.:rolleyes:

244704

[Jim Belair]

Do I understand that you are trying to cut this shape at the front and back of your very nice box? If so this would answer George's question and leave me no closer to an answer. Though you've got me thinking.:rolleyes:

244704

That was my understanding Sam, so the cut on the side boards, which have the tails, needs to be at 90 deg through the tail, then angle, then back to 90 deg at the other set of tails.

Jim B

[Joe Bailey]

With the box dry fitted* as you have it shown, Mark the layout lines on the piece as per your plan. This is basically what you've done with your tape layout.
Your incised layout lines would include the right angle transitions at front and back. Now dissassemble and carefully make all your cuts.

*this would be a tight, dry-fit, for obvious reasons.

[ray hampton]

I can not see how you can assembled this box and bandsaw it while assembled, also if you want the sawcut to meet at the corner, the the front and back will need to be cut at a angle other than 90 degrees

both ends can be cut at the same time by stacking the wood

[Sam Murdoch]

I wonder about this approach.

1) Dry fit the box.

2) Start the cuts at each corner of the front and back panels.

3) Disassemble the box.

4) Continue the started cuts, now going along the slope, on each edge of the side panels but just enough to allow you to start your hand saw once the box is assembled.

5) Reassemble the box with glue.

6) Continue the hand sawing from where you left off.

This is just an idea, mind you. I have not attempted this procedure.

[george wilson]

If you must have square cuts at the front and rear of the box,as illustrated,why not just get fancy and cut an "S" curve to separate the box from its lid. Then,you would have your square cuts and a nice looking S curved joint,which I'm sure you could suitably clean up by hand to eliminate the bandsaw cuts.

[phil harold]

If you must have square cuts at the front and rear of the box,as illustrated,why not just get fancy and cut an "S" curve to separate the box from its lid. Then,you would have your square cuts and a nice looking S curved joint,which I'm sure you could suitably clean up by hand to eliminate the bandsaw cuts.
+1 on this idea!

[jason thigpen]

Use double side tape in between both side pieces. Cut the angle on the bandsaw then clean up the lines with a plane. Then dry fit and mark the front and back. Take apart one more time. Cut those square on the line. Reassemble and it's done.

[Rodney Walker]

I'm not an expert and have only built a few small boxes but here's my thoughts anyway.
I'm making the assumption you would prefer to glue the box first then cut the lid to keep everything aligned. Unless you do as George suggested with an "S" type curve I don't think you can get the 90* cut at the front and back that way.

One other solution may be to cut the sides first using a thin bladed saw like a scroll or coping saw to get the sharp transition at the front and back, glue up the box then make your cuts on the front and back panels. This may help minimize alignment issues that would be introduced if you cut all the pieces first.

Please keep us posted as to your final solution.

Rodney

[Steven Hsieh]

Once you cut the shape you want. How are you going to join them together? hinge?

[Jim Palmer]

Using hand saws to separate the box lid from base there should be no problem keeping all edges at 90deg to face if you wish. Power tools would tend to limit your ability to do so at the front and rear of the box unless you begin and terminate cuts within the alignment of the inner edges of both gables and complete your cuts using hand saws to release the two elements, or plan to square off edges by means of an applied lipping. There's no real need to complicate matters/design by creating ogee curves - unless previously planned as a design feature -in order to carry out such an exercise, as cuts of this nature are fairly standard when crafting chests and tool boxes.

[george wilson]

There is EVERY REASON to "complicate" the issue with an ogee curve. The reason is,it doesn't complicate things. It makes things MUCH simpler,actually,than trying to step the cuts to achieve square front and back surfaces. Actually,I personally don't see why square cuts are needed in the first place.

Actually,I'd like to see someone cut that straight joint accurately,which is exactly why Derek has asked for help. It would be a huge pain!!

[Jim Belair]

There is EVERY REASON to "complicate" the issue with an ogee curve.

I agree! Added simplicity aside, it would add a detail that takes a nice box to a great one, and thus in keeping with the beautiful bridle plough Derek has created.

[george wilson]

Where's Derek? He should nearly be asleep by now. There is a 16 hour time difference,at least,where my Aussie friend Vesper lives(but he's 900 miles from his friend Derek).

[Nicholas Lingg]

Completely tape the box together then cut the front and back on the table saw only going 90% of the the way throught. then disassemble the box and mark between the two kerfs and use a scroll saw to cut the sides and clean up with a plane and chisel

[Derek Cohen]

Many thanks all for the advice. It has been very helpful.


The first decision was that the lid had to be cut by hand. No choice really. I have a big bandsaw (Hammer 4400) but it is not big enough (clears a little over 11", however I need about 13"). So handsaw it is.

This also rules out fancy curves.


The second decision was that the parts had to be glued up beforehand to keep the sides lined up.


The floating panels were given a finish of Danish Oil, and then the box was glued up ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Box3-2.jpg


All sides are made up of two boards. The top was bookmatched. I thought it came out nicely.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Box4.jpg


A picture of the glued carcase - no finish yet.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Box5-1.jpg


I decided that the key to sawing the box was to saw the sides (She-oak) first. The front and rear (Jarrah) must not be sawn first as it would be difficult to get the angles needed to then saw the sides. The sides first also creates a guide to saw the front and rear.


I planned to saw the box as accurately as possible, then lap the two sides on sandpaper-on-a-flat-surface. I think that this has a better chance of enabling the two sides to go together seamlessly. This is what I have done many times before. Your comments?


Now there is a problem that may change the whole plan. The Jarrah on the front-and-back is 3/4" thick, while the She-oak is 1/2" (to save weight). While fitting one She-oak side, I could hear that the joined pieces were not solid along the join length. That is, the glue has failed. I used hide glue. The trouble is that the saw cut will start at the join.


The top of the square marks the join ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Box7.jpg


Here is a picture of the proposed sawcut (taken before the box was assembled) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Box1a.jpg


Ideas? Can the join be strengthened after separation (superglue?)? Do I forget the angled cut and instead saw along the joined line (then I would use a table saw to avoid the blade drifting with the grain)?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Palmer]

There's no need too shout or be "rude" George.

We'll have to agree to disagree in terms of the introduction an ogee curve for the sake of ease. Our perspectives differ, but this type of squared front:side intersection isn't new and whilst an ogee may seem attractive it also introduces points concerning edge dressing (Re spokeshave work) and could well negate the possibility of installing a dust seal (If one had been planned) without moving heavily into ogee territory. Regardless of if it proves to be hand or power tool oriented work.

Stepped cuts aren't necessary if one wishes to craft a square edged box lid with side cheeks canting down from back to front. You simply approach the task from a different angle and pre-cut start and finish points prior to assembly and glue-up. It's then possible to separate the two box halves by sawing straight lines and avoiding complex cutting and finishing.

The only reason I can imagine a square edge being necessary at the front would be if there's a keyed lock involved.

[Jim Matthews]

I don't own a tablesaw, so please forgive my ignorance;

if the desired line is scored deeply, would a circular blade follow the line?
For the purely horizontal incision, should that be straightforward?

On the skewed section, a fenced router would be my choice.
Either by hand or powered. In either case, I would not through cut
but rather finish through with a Japanese saw set to crosscut.

The kerf from the router bit would (I should hope) guide the saw plate.
Perhaps a couple battens applied would ensure squareness.

It's an interesting problem.

[george wilson]

I certainly didn't intend to be rude,and don't see where you got that idea,Jim. I capitalize some words all the time to emphasize them,but it isn't " shouting".

If Derek hasn't got a large enough bandsaw,it changes things a bit. Otherwise,my "s" curve would have simplified things for sure. That break in the line is not simple to saw,hand tools or not. If I wanted a dust seal,what is wrong with sawing a pair of S shaped ones to match the curve?

And,maybe you didn't really need to accuse me of "complicating" things??? I'd have put the box on my bandsaw and have the cut made in a short time. Some others thought it was a good idea. My 14" old Delta will cut 12" deep,and I modified my 20" 1950's Delta to cut about 14" deep by simply sawing off a bit of the casting holding the guide bar. It did not hurt the saw at all as the casting is more than ample length. I had to do this on the 20" Delta at work in order to saw some deep curves for the Jones Cup golf trophy I was helping to make at the time.

I had thought that "shouting" was when you did the whole post in capitals. No?

[David Weaver]

Personally, I would take the whole thing apart and build a divider in the box. The top would hold the plow plane, with a sliding lid, and the bottom would have a shallow drawer to hold the irons and other things you'd like to have separate.

if not, I would follow george's advice and find someone with a saw, who could cut an ogee or something similar that would look good without the difficulty of a perfect cut with no bandsaw wander.

[george wilson]

With a good blade,I don't get no stink'in blade wander!!:) But,I know how to make love to the bandsaw.

[David Weaver]

With a good blade,I don't get no stink'in blade wander!!:) But,I know how to make love to the bandsaw.

That could result in unexpected amputations!

[george wilson]

It is true that you have to develop a sense of touch to get the most out of a bandsaw. I do everything with a 6 tpi 1/4" blade. The furniture conservators came over to my shop to resaw some walnut about 5" deep. These guys have Master's degrees in conservation. However,they could not stay within 1/4" of the line!! They were wasting a large amount of their wood. I took a piece and sawed it right on the line. They wanted to know how I could do that. I told them "you have to learn to make love to the bandsaw". Actually,it is perfectly true,though they likely thought I was joking.

Another time,they needed a 1/16" thick veneer cut from a 12" thick chunk of Cuban mahogany I had,and which I valued very much. It was hard as blazes,and I still have it. I made the infill jointer I've posted here with some of it. Takes very crisp detail. Great to work with. It happened to match very closely the missing veneer on the case of an 18th. C. tall case clock that they were restoring.

While they were there,I put a new 1/4" blade on the 20" Delta,and exactly sawed a 1/16" thick slice exactly on the line. They had to do no more than sand the saw cut marks off. They never could figure out how I could cut like that with the bandsaw!! Naturally,I loved prodding them by doing stuff like that. I've warned guys before that I do most things the hard way,but a 1/4" blade can do perfectly good work if it is properly adjusted and the operator knows just how to "feel" the cutting rate of the saw. And,of course,can follow a line!!:)

[Bruce Haugen]

George,
have you ever figured out a way to resharpen bandsaw blades, or do you always just use a new one?

[Jim Palmer]

I accused nobody of complicating matters, but did state you were suggesting a more complex layout. The knock-on effect from introducing curves covers far more ground than you imply or seem willing to admit. Such effects need to be considered and potentially explained if suggesting such design alterations but the question is whether or not a person possesses the necessary skills to carry out such an operation if at first he/she needs to ask advice

In all honesty it's not a case of whether or not one has a bigger bandsaw, possess' scope to utilise a larger one, or whether others like the idea (I in fact like the idea of ogee curves too, but it may not suit Derek's intentions). A better approach tends to involve more basic box designs if one finds oneself needing to ask how to carry out such operations. Perhaps practise ogee transitions between lid and base on smaller pieces, before carrying out such work on finish items such as in this instance. No offence intended or offered.

[george wilson]

DEREK: You could still do the ogee line; Take the box apart and,having laid out the line all around the box(actually only need to draw the S curve on one end of the box),lay the side pieces down. Rip them on the bandsaw. Then,stack the end pieces,possibly hold them together with double sided tape. Bearing in mind WHICH side of the line you ripped the sides on,saw your S curve on the same side of the line and all will match up when the box is re assembled.

I would go ahead and take the minimum amount of wood off the straight cuts to eliminate the saw cuts,and use a vertical drum sander to sand off exactly the same amount while they are still stacked. I'd also trace the S curve onto some thin wood and saw them to make the curved parts for the dust liner,sanding them also. Of course,make straight pieces for the front and back,and miter the corners of all.

If you are careful,and I know you are,this will yield a perfectly neat joint for your box. I've seen plenty of wooden recipe boxes with the S curved joints.

EDIT: NUTS,I re read and see that Derek has already glued the box up!! Well,maybe next time,keep this in mind.

[Carl Beckett]

It seems you have to cut these before assembling ( to me at least )

Then it would be nice to have a small rabbet so there was a portion of the mating lips that overlapped ( top piece has lip on outside edge which mates with the lower piece lip around the inside edge ). I recon this would make it even more difficult

[george wilson]

Jim,I am not refusing to admit anything,really. The method I just laid out for Derek is pretty easy to accomplish,and Derek is perfectly skilled to do this joint,if you have followed his work.

Bruce,I have sharpened 6 tpi 1/4" blades by hand,just using a light touch on each tooth on a bench grinder,but it takes skill,there is no doubt,and consistency for each tooth. The blades I've done this to have actually cut better than when new,because they were made sharper. Most 1/4" blades I have used are blue or blackish all over,including the cutting edges of the teeth. This tells me that they had the teeth cut apparently before heat treatment. Naturally,the heat treatment dulls sharp teeth a bit. I haven't used the "Wood Slicer" blades for many years,and cannot recall if their teeth were bright or not (ground after heat treatment).

I only bothered to do this when I had no more blades on hand,and needed one in a hurry. It is rather a pain to sharpen an 11' 9" blade!! It does remove a bit of the set,too,and can be done once,or possibly twice if you are real careful not to take much more than a whisper off the teeth.

In the early 60's,Sears sold a very nice little set of 1/4" shank rotary files. They were bright HSS,and so keen they would cut your fingerprints. I used them till they were too dull to suit me. THEN,I ordered more,and they arrived BLACK!!!! And as DULL as the cutters I had decided were too dull to be suitable. I contacted Sears,and was told they were nitride coated and would last longer. Baloney!!! They were heat treating them and dulling the fine edges of the teeth. I gave up using them and got them bright elsewhere. Another formerly good product ruined by a decision likely from some bean counter.

Carl,I did lay out a plan for cutting the joint before assembly,but apparently the box is already glued up!!!

[Jim Neeley]

Derek,

If power tools (bandsaw) is being offered, an alternative would be to use a table saw with thin kerf blade tilted and a well-set rip fence. With a 250mm (10") blade fully raised and cut from both sides you'd end up with about a 3" deep cut with about 0.1" kerf from the front and back. Using a hand saw to cut the remaining 6-7" would leave plenty for the 0.025" blade to cut through the shadow of the table saw kerf. A few strokes of a hand plane would quickly clean up any saw marks.

Just another approach, and one that would work well after glue-up.

Grins from Anchorage,

Jim

Jim

[george wilson]

I lived in Ketchikan for 5 years and Sitka 1 year.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks again for all the input, guys.

The glue joint issue is no longer an issue - I had planned to line the inside side faces with a holder for blades (one on each side of the box, each holding 4 blades). This will reinforce the weak side.

I can only get back to the cutting this coming weekend. In the meantime George I have begun to see the idea of an ogee as not just desirable but necessary. I have used ogees on the plough plane, and since this is a box for the plane, there needs to be a physical link. An ogee join would do that. I will make up a pattern to rout it. Not done this in years so I may need a new bit.

David, I did consider a drawer - I've done this before on at least two occasions. However the plough plane takes up so much more space than one can imagine. The end result would be a chest and not a box!

Here is one such box ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Competition%20brace%20for%20Wood%20Central%202008_ html_m54af92d7.jpg

And another: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/EntryforAustralianWoodReview2009.html

Here is the plough just sitting on top of the box ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Box6.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Neeley]

I lived in Ketchikan for 5 years and Sitka 1 year.

Just one MORE reason I like ya, George! <g>

Jim

[Jim Neeley]

Derek,

I think an ogee will really set that box off and I'm sure hoping you'll take a few snapshots for a how-to for the rest of us. I follow the mechanics of making such a cut on a bandsaw but turning it into a good-looking finished product I'm looking forward to learning!

George and yourself aside, most of us here are mere mortals!!

[george wilson]

Derek: So,apparently you are able to take the box apart still ? Do you plan to follow my last suggestion about cutting the ogee dis assembled? What time is it there,11:45 PM?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi George

The box is glued up tight. No pulling it apart.

What I had in mind was to shape the ogee out of MDF, attach it to the side, and use it as a pattern to rout the ogee. This could be transfered to the other side, and then the front and back cut off with a table saw. I think I have a 3mm carbide spiral bit somewhere, and the saw blade is the same width I think.

This is all getting rather complex for a simple box to house a plough plane. Gotta keep a perspective here. Still, it is more fun to do interesting things, no matter what the eventual use of the work piece.

I need to work out the geometry, but I was originally inspired by military writing boxes like this ...

http://www.hygra.com/blue/wb/wbagsec/wbagsec01_small.jpg

I had put this aside, but someone reminded me, and now the dilemma is whether to make it straight or ogeed. The aim is to hinge it in the middle so it opens towards one, as with the writing box (rather than hinged at the back, like a tool box) ....

http://www.hygra.com/blue/wb/wbagsec/wbagsec14_small.jpg


The box I have is rather tall and the proportions are different. Ogee or straight?

Thoughts?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Beckett]

If not assembled - I still like the idea of overlap along the edge to make a better 'sealing'. (and I know if anyone can pull it off you can). It can also help 'self align' a bit as the two halves come down on each other (sometimes I see old boxes where this lip is tapered against each other which guides them together).

Some day I just want to come spend an afternoon looking at your hand made tool collection....

(whoops I see you just posted simultaneously that its glued up)

[Jim Palmer]

Hi Derek, If it's to be hinged in a writing case format I'd keep the sides straight, as they tend to be less obtrusive (Less likely to sustain damage) during use.....Especially in a workshop environment. If opting for ogee, it tends to be more aesthetically pleasing if such curves are capable of flowing smoothly with the lid in both closed and open positions. This sometimes leads to the use of shallower curves for the sake of smooth transitions (Function and outward appearance), but - as always - the radii used depend upon the scale of the piece in question.

[Derek Cohen]

If not assembled - I still like the idea of overlap along the edge to make a better 'sealing'. (and I know if anyone can pull it off you can). It can also help 'self align' a bit as the two halves come down on each other (sometimes I see old boxes where this lip is tapered against each other which guides them together)....

Hi Carl

This is still possible. It is planned to add vertical holders for the blades on left and right inside walls of the box. This will also align the lid.

It is the length of the irons that is the reason for the height of the box. The plough is about 9" high, but the blades are 11".

Regards from Perth

Derek

p.s. you are welcome any time to come over and play with the toys. :)

[David Little 2]

I don't own any machines, My Sjoberg workbench is behind the curtain, behind the sofa, behind the wife, in the living-room;)

Here are a few possible (Galootish) solutions.

1, I don't own a router (pah, dusty noisy things !), but could it be possible to use a plunge with small (1/8') flute for the whole job, if fenced well.

2, Combination/plough plane front and back, bow saw the sides.

3,Tenon saw front and back, bow saw the sides.

Clean up using any of the bull nose/chisel planes that I have never really used enough.

Dave

PS I've used cocktail sticks as dowels for repairing/re-enforcing the joint that's come apart, a long series drill bit may save disassembly.

[Jim Palmer]

Why not stow the irons - as well as adjustment tools - in a rack/segmented compartment within the drop down lid?

[george wilson]

I guess 3mm is as small a router bit as you have. Any diameter of the cutting tool will cause little differences in the opposite sides of the ogee,so a bandsawed cut would have been better.

IF you want to get MORE elegant,you could steam some 3mm wood strips and bend them in a jig to fit the ogee. Leave the strips about 3mm too wide for the thickness,and make a little bullnose edge that sits proud of the outside of the box. Do this with other,straight strips all the way around the box. Miter the corners,make cut outs where the hinges go. These,with the dust liners inside the box,will make a very elegant touch,and will make the ogees fit perfectly where the 3mm router left its kerf.

[Jim Palmer]

That would be the lipping strip I'd suggested in a previous post. :D

A bending jig shouldn't be necessary for thin lipping, because it can be cut slightly over long before clamped in-situ overnight between the separated lid and base. This helps provide a precise fit between lid and base and can readily be adjusted. Mitres are best cut in-situ because - if opting to cut straight stock - mating angles can and do shift and alter.

I'd potentially opt for the bending iron and former approach if using thicker stock, but the material would be thin enough (Think 1.5mm veneer) to bend freehand and directly into position. A hockey stick profile tends to be a good choice for a lipping detail as the resulting overlap can conceal minor inaccuracies.

[george wilson]

I don't know if he has a bending iron or not. I bend guitar sides that way. Also have a steam pipe made in the early 60's. T shaped. Hot water heater element in the base,oval squeezed 4" pipe to make it wider,4' tall. Petcock near the bottom to check water level.

I never use the steamer anymore for bending guitar sides as I made a machine for bending them hot,but not scorching hot. It is very handy,but works on the bending iron principle. The steam pipe is useful for steaming strips for antique repair and the like.




Any pictures of your work? You do have to pay the minimal figure of $6.00 to have the ability to post pictures,or to see them,I suppose. Can you see Derek's box? I'm not sure what a member can see,but I know you can't use the FAQ section.There is a wealth of work to be seen in the FAQ section at the top of this forum section,which you would benefit from seeing,I'm sure.

I'm sure Derek knows how to best bend his wood,and how to cut miters. He liked the ogee curve,and did ask advice on cutting the box apart.

Here are a few pictures of wood I've bent. German curly maple,bass viola da gamba. This was hot pipe bent while Master Musical Instrument Maker in Colonial Williamsburg. The top,not seen here,is arched,carved spruce. All done by hand in public.

[Chris Kowalski]

Hi George,

When you're re-sawing veneers on your bandsaw, what type of fence do you use? A single-point fence, a regular straight fence or something different?

Regards,

Chris

[george wilson]

Depending on the situation,I use a fence or a tall,single point contact knee that I quickly made from a left over shelf bracket,just clamped to the table. Works fine. I just free hand cut the 12" thick Cuban mahogany 1/16" veneer. I had a steadier hand back then!! I've developed an "intentional quiver". Hands are calm until I try to do something. A doctor who's known me since 1982 says it's not Parkinson's. Rather annoying. Ought to take a half a xanax before doing small work,but never remember to.

[Jim Palmer]

I'll see if I can find a few photographs of my work and hopefully post examples in the near future George. We all benefit from sharing and never cease learning fresh or different approaches to our own work.

Thermo-coupled heat blankets are worth their weight in gold when partnered with bending forms and I've a reasonable setup for mine, plus use hot pipes too, although I seldom use my dry steam bending rig nowadays.

I can see Derek's box, as well as your own work George and must say you produce some very nice pieces. Derek's work is coming along nicely and especially so when considering it's done on a part-time basis. Much of my own work is carried out in either my workshop (Luthiery and cabinetmaking) or on site in customer's homes when installing or repairing bespoke furniture.

[David Weaver]

No matter how many times I see the peghead on that viola da gamba, the design and the carving is so pleasing. The inlay on the rest of the instrument is nice, as is the wood, but the peghead is so lovely. Even the pegs are great.

[george wilson]

Unfortunately,the pegs and the strings are the only things I didn't make. I had no lathe in the instrument shop at that time,and would have had to make someone turn the "great wheel" lathe in the cabinet shop for hours,which I was reluctant to make them do. It is common practice for violin makers,etc. to just buy the pegs. When I got into machining,I made a lathe that would make pegs automatically every 7 minutes,oval or flat thumb pieces and all. I have taken the drive unit off of it right now to save space,but made hundreds of lute pegs on it for a maker of instrument kits in Baltimore back years ago. I think he went out of business.

I also never asked an employee to scrub the toilet upstairs. I did that myself. Either too soft hearted or too soft headed. Looking back,I should have been more strict than I was.

[george wilson]

I only do two types of work: Free gifts,or custom made!! My wife falls under the free gifts status.She never wants anything romantic. Just tooling and dies,master jewelry models,occasionally a piece of furniture.

I agree that we benefit from learning from each other,and look forwards to you telling me things I need to know. I hope you are able to post pictures,but you may have to pay the $6.00 to have the privilege. It is most certainly money well spent. Better than any magazine.

I need to know if the World will end on December 21,so I can hurry up and sell all my stuff and rush down to see my grand daughters. There are truly a billion things I need to know!!!!:):):)

[ray hampton]

I only do two types of work: Free gifts,or custom made!! My wife falls under the free gifts status.She never wants anything romantic. Just tooling and dies,master jewelry models,occasionally a piece of furniture.

I agree that we benefit from learning from each other,and look forwards to you telling me things I need to know. I hope you are able to post pictures,but you may have to pay the $6.00 to have the privilege. It is most certainly money well spent. Better than any magazine.

I need to know if the World will end on December 21,so I can hurry up and sell all my stuff and rush down to see my grand daughters. There are truly a billion things I need to know!!!!:):):)

George ,if something special happen on December 21 then this will give the world a cause to question this Indian tribe, I am trusting in GOD not man

[Jim Matthews]

Here are a few pictures of wood I've bent. German curly maple,bass viola da gamba. This was hot pipe bent while Master Musical Instrument Maker in Colonial Williamsburg. The top,not seen here,is arched,carved spruce. All done by hand in public.

I don't know which is worse; the realization that there are tiers of handiwork I've never imagined, or the realization that I can't imagine myself achieving them.
I know one thing is for sure, PBS sets the bar far too low. It's a credit to the generosity of people like George and Derek that they post here - for free.

These guys have forgotten more than I'm ever likely to know about handling wood and crafting artifacts.

I feel like Wayne and Garth meeting Alice Cooper, backstage.

[Rodney Walker]

Jim, I find myself feeling the same.
I see work here I'm not even qualified to look at, let alone comment on. That's some truly incredible work George, and made even more so because you were able to do it while demonstrating your work in a public setting.
Rodney

[Derek Cohen]

Hey, I'm just a hack. Anyone here can do what I do. George is the one to watch. I aspire to his proficiency and creativity.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

Mr. Cohen.

Your modesty is admirable, as is the breadth and depth of your skill.
The fact that you willingly share this - gratis - with novices (such as my self)
is remarkable. I've already lifted more than my share from your website.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/

[george wilson]

Derek,I know a hack when I see one. Many do not because they haven't enough information. There are plenty of hacks out there. Some have made whole careers out of being hacks,and are loved and admired by thousands who don't know better. They pull it off with personality sometimes. One well known writer/woodworker who has a short name came to Williamsburg several years ago,and made every Colonial Williamsburg craftsman watching the woodworking forum very fed up with him. He's the guy who told me he'd been using the same thickness planer blades for 20 years!! Another famous hack was Carlos Montoya. All razzle dazzle. He was a horrible flamenco guitarist,but got away with his bad playing because most people don't know anything about real flamenco. I played little else for about 45 years. It is amazing how many professional hacks there are out there.

I'll bet you don't jam saws in the middle of cuts,or stall out planes in the middle of cuts.

I've seen plenty of your work.

You do very good work and you are NO HACK. Don't demean yourself.

[ray hampton]

Derek,I know a hack when I see one. about 45 years. It is amazing how many professional hacks there are out there.



You do very good work and you are NO HACK. Don't demean yourself.

Do you remember when cabs or taxis were call hacks ?
I not saying that you are old but if you watch television as a child

[Derek Cohen]

You are very kind George. My intention is not to elicit praise but rather to point out that you and I exist in two different worlds. I consider the work you do to be amongst the finest craft that one may see anywhere and in any era. You my friend are an extraordinarily talented person and craftsman. The problem is that we are mere mortals and can but aspire to be what you are - however there are few who will ever reach that height. This is not simply flattery, but objectivity. The issue is that no one actually tries to emulate you as it is a Fool's Errand. The work I do, on the other hand, is decent but not that complicated - I try hard to do the best I can, and push the envelope a little further each time. Nevertheless it is well within the reach of most forumites. That is one of the reasons I write pictorials - so that others may see the steps I took and do the same, or better.

So keep inspiring us, please. I will chase you as best I can, in my own way. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Palmer]

Derek, IMHO you're very gifted and definitely not a hack.

[Rodney Walker]

Derek, you're one of the people who's work I admire here. Good solid workmanship with tight joints and generally clean, simple lines with good proportions. Not as easy to do as it sounds.
Rodney

[george wilson]

So,Derek,how is your box coming along? It has been too cold here to spray a guitar I'm slowly finishing up. Therefore,I decided to "have some fun",and make a small brass cannon. Well,it just seems totally impossible for me to have any fun. At least in any work which of necessity is connected with historical accuracy. I found myself making accurate drawings of all the proportions,making sure all the moldings were correct,making sure the cannon would be breech heavy,and not flop muzzle down sitting in the carriage(Naval in this case). Then,I spent about 10 or more hours turning the barrel in excruciating detail,grinding several special,miniature cutters to make the moldings,installing as carefully as possible the trunnions,so they would not blow out of the gun when it is fired (This needs to be proof tested before I get sued down the road if the gun falls into other hands). etc.. After all,even an 8" long gun,50 caliber is more deadly than most modern pistols. Anyone can overload one,or use smokeless powder from a shotgun shell(the easiest and most frequently used road to disaster). One boy scout leader was found to be using 2 pounds of black powder in a smallish saluting cannon!!! Several times the safe load!!

I had in mind using this cannon as a Christmas gift,but am having second thoughts due to liability. Perhaps a brass snuff box would be better(the person is in costume at work). So,maybe I'll keep it and let them(whoever) sue me after I'm dead!! I could at least supply it without the touch hole drilled out. That's a way some makers avoid liability,but my OCD won't let me make something that doesn't work. And,it takes plenty of OCD to do decent work,it seems.

I just cannot bear to stamp "black powder only" on my guns just so some dummy doesn't blow himself up. It would disfigure it enough that I just would not make it in the first place if forced to so label it. Some people should just stay away from guns!!

Anyhoo,it is just SO MUCH trouble trying to make something that must be authentic,or it will become a piece of fantasy junk. I'm so tired all the time,it becomes hard work,not fun like it used to be. As usual,I didn't take enough pictures,or GOOD pictures at that. I'll eventually post it when I at least get the barrel done. Maybe I should have made a Napoleon: no moldings!! But,there is still the issue of the trunnions. I could braze them in,but that reduces the strength of the cold rolled brass to that of cast brass,which is MUCH weaker. Original cast bronze or cast iron cannon had records kept. When they reached a certain number of times fired,they were melted down and re cast. Firing a cannon is like hammering the inside of the barrel every time it is fired. Otherwise,they became brittle and blew up. So,I screwed them snugly in with Loctite. Been toying with the idea of pressing in a steel liner,but it would show at the muzzle. I could screw in a short length of brass bushing to cover the steel liner,though. There used to be a foundry near here that made cast iron cannons that Dixie Gun Works sold. I saw that they were cast around steel liners with their butt ends welded up. Too bad they are gone,now.

I hope your work is more fun than I have. Doctors have tried for decades to find out why I'm always so tired. Current theory is (from blood work),I'm critically short on vitamin D2) Am on a 12 week regimen of 55,000 units per week for 12 weeks. I also do not get REM sleep,so always feel like I've been up all night. The medicines' side effects were worse than the illness!

What I get done,I get done on pure stubbornness. When I was a young adult,I'd work all day,come home for supper,then drive 20 minutes back to the shop and work till 11:00. My wife said it was like being married to a mad scientist. That started slowing down as time went on!!

[Jim Neeley]

George,

It's off-topic but have you had a sleep study to assess the possibility you may have sleep apnea? I went through a couple years of increasing exhaustion before I had one. The identified that I too did not get REM sleep.

Once on a CPAP I immediately started getting REM, dreaming like a mad man, and feeling more rested. After a number or years I again started feeling tired so went in for another study. They determine that the settings on the CPAP needed to be changed and voila.. rest once again.

I mention it only because of the wonder it has done for me. YMMV.. :)

Jim in Alaska

[george wilson]

Jim,I had to go through 3 sleep clinics to find out I was kicking. I tried the CPAP because I WAS snoring,and it messed up my sinuses too much even with the humidifier. I don't snore any more because I can only sleep on my side due to back pain. Kicking in my sleep wakes me from the deeper sleep,but the medicines were worse than the problem. 3 more weeks of D2 will hopefully help my energy level. I can only wait.

This thread has gotten way off topic,I must apologize to Derek,and hope it gets back on topic.

[ray hampton]

Jim,I had to go through 3 sleep clinics to find out I was kicking. I tried the CPAP because I WAS snoring,and it messed up my sinuses too much even with the humidifier. I don't snore any more because I can only sleep on my side due to back pain. Kicking in my sleep wakes me from the deeper sleep,but the medicines were worse than the problem. 3 more weeks of D2 will hopefully help my energy level. I can only wait.

This thread has gotten way off topic,I must apologize to Derek,and hope it gets back on topic.

Do you kick when sleeping on the right side or the left side ? my problem attack everything from head to feet
now we will return to the news already in progress [Derek ]

[Mel Fulks]

If you don't commit to the ogee George is going to fly (or row) over to your house and commandeer that project. But,hey! Worse things could happen!

[george wilson]

He likes the ogee. I expect in a few days we'll see pictures of it finished up.

[Derek Cohen]

Progress? I only get into the shop on weekends, never during the week, so the no pictures until later.

What I have in mind for the box may better suit a straight cut, rather than an ogee, so the jury is still out. The box is quite simple at this stage (a blank canvas), but is going to be a challenge as it evolves (a teaser).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Palmer]

Sounds like a case for banding, beading and inlays :)

[Carl Beckett]

The box is quite simple at this stage (a blank canvas), but is going to be a challenge as it evolves (a teaser).



Why do I get the feeling that this is no longer about a simple, functional storage box......

[george wilson]

Ray,the word hack for a cab comes from the popular Hackney cabs that were used in the 19th.C.

Derek,if you put the effort into making the ogee,you will be rewarded by admiring it every time you see it or use it. No pain,no gain. I just spent 10 hours making a very detailed 8" cannon barrel,which I enjoy seeing every time I look at it. The time and effort are soon forgotten.(Not so much the effort,just my not feeling well while doing it).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi George

I figured that a ogee would be impossible to do with a single router "cut" having glued the box together, that is, the two sides would not fit. Anyway I decided that I preferred the simplicity of a straight line ... and later I think that you will agree with me.

OK, so the box needed to be cleaved in two. It always looks straightforward when looking back, but this was a reasonably complex task.


The inspiration for the design came from a campaign writing desk ...


http://www.hygra.com/blue/wb/wbagsec/wbagsec14_small.jpg


I've been wanting to build one of these writing desks for a few years. Perhaps you have been as well. If so, my experience may help you a little.


The box had been glued up at the last post to ensure that the sides remained coplanar after sawing off the lid. Now it was time to do this. A template for marking the sides was made out of thin MDF ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A3.jpg


Sawing on the bench was difficult owing to the extra height created. I could have done with a platform, or platform shoes!


I have a guide that does triple duty: one side is angled for siding dovetails, the other is at right angles for a dado plane. I added a few rare earth magnets to the latter for a saw ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A4.jpg


... and brought out "The Beast", a 28" x 5" Disston mitre saw.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A5.jpg


The sides of the box were sawn until just through the side thickness.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A6.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A7.jpg


Before sawing the front and back I hot glued scrap MDF over the sides to hold them in place ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A8.jpg


A new guide for the front and rear sides was quickly made up on the tablesaw. This was to maintain the angle of the side saw cuts.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A9.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A10.jpg


No magnets, so you just need to hold the saw against the fence.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A11.jpg


I did not saw all the way through on the first end, stopping just short. Then completely sawed the second end, before returning to finish off the first end.


The result was pretty good. There is a tiny amount that will benefit from being lapped smooth. That is for tomorrow.


A side ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A12.jpg


Rear ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A13.jpg


Front ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A14.jpg


Sides together ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A15.jpg


And a preview of what I am after ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/A16.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Not bad for a "hack", Derek. . . ;)

My old Disston mitre saw isn't nearly as long, (16" blade) and I've been thinking of selling it, but every now and then I see you pull yours out for something like this and I figure maybe I ought to sharpen it up and hang onto it. Then it gets in the way again.

Thanks for sharing, this is looking good.

Really love the plough, by the way. Just jealous enough I'm tempted to have a go at one. Of course, some nice irons need to fall into my hands, first.

[george wilson]

Very accurate saw cut,Derek. But you should have used a HACK saw!!:):):) The box is looking good.

Joshua,not long ago I saw a set of those irons on Ebay.

[Carl Beckett]

It's just that easy.........

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

yeah, I've seen 'em on eBay too. I bid every now and then, but get outbid. Money's always tight right now, unless I start pulling more overtime, but then the time is tight, so I can't do anything with the stuff I'd use the money to buy. Rather have the time in the "shop" and with the wife and just make do with what I've got.

[Derek Cohen]

Hinges.

I do have decent brass butt hinges, on a par with Brusso, but I am not happy with this style.


The problem with butt hinges is that they will be very apparent from the front of the box. I really want as little to show as possible.


The ideal type of hinge would be an internal strap hinge, such as the one here ..
http://www.hygra.com/blue/wb/wbagsec/wbagsec06.jpg

The problem is that the sides are about 3/8" wide (the front and back are 3/4") , and so I need to find something with a strap around 1/4" wide, in brass. Anyone have a contact? I've looked at several sites.


Or an alternate idea?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You could maybe use some of those SOSS hinges LV sells, either the barrell ones, or the "invisible" ones. Won't see a thing when the box is closed, but they'd look a little garish when open.

What about using the quadrant hinges LV sells, but removing the floating quadrant stays?

You say butt hinges would be very evident from the front of the box - but wouldn't those strap hinges you show also be evident from the front of the box? You'll still be seeing the hinge knuckle, won't you? Why would tiny butt hinges mortised into the front and back pieces be any worse?

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Joshua. I have just found the hinges I want: http://www.whitechapel-ltd.com/product/boxh/247HV12.html

These will minimise the amount of brass at the front of the box.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Be careful with those narrow hinges. They have very little metal left around the screw holes,and might break if stressed. When the box is opened,I'd be sure to not try moving it around. Cast brass is weak. If I had to use such a narrow hinge,I'd make them from 01 tool steel tempered to a blue spring temper,and leave the blue(heat blue) surface on the hinge. Would be very pretty and much stronger. I'd also make the hinges thicker if I couldn't make them wider,to help build up metal around the screw holes with countersinks.

[Sean Richards]

Derek,

You did a nice job of cutting the lid but you must have spent more time taking photos of it and posting about it than the job took ...

[Rodney Walker]

Documenting any process takes far longer than just doing it, but by doing so you increase the knowledge base for everyone. Now the next guy has one more solid, reliable method for making an angled cut.
The free sharing of knowledge and ideas is what makes these forums so good.
Rodney

[george wilson]

I always fail to sufficently photo document my progress,and usually make BAD pictures anyway. I regret not doing this better many years ago,as well as currently. Keep it up,Derek.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

You did a nice job of cutting the lid but you must have spent more time taking photos of it and posting about it than the job took ...

Hi Sean

Actually photographing work alongs is second nature to me. Takes no time at all (although it did bring out the sweat once when I photographed a glueing method while putting together dovetailed panels!). What takes up time is the obsessing what/how to do things! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Randy Karst]

George,
You have me curious now, who is the short named writer/woodworker that you referenced above?

Randy

[Jussi Auvinen]

I would cut that joint with handsaws.

First the perpendiculars, then the slopes with a japanese azebiki(saw for cutting in the center of a panel) I would saw from the middle of the cut.

Maybe a bit late responce to the thread but oh well..:o