Old vs New (LV/LN) Planes Best for Doing Work

[Brody Goodwine]

I feel like this question has surely been asked, but I couldn't find it. Please understand I'm not trying to stir the pot as I imagine this could result in a heated discussion.

I'm starting to gain an appreciation for hand tools, and am at that point where I understand I need a few hand planes to do better work. I have a low angle new version Sweetheart, an old Stanley defiance #3 i'm refinishing, and a mini Veritas shoulder plane. I plan to use anything I pick up, since i'm not a collector, but can appreciate history if it's a bonus. At the end of the day I want the best functioning plane most of all. I don't mind putting in some labor to refurb a plane.

My Questions:
1) Assuming both are sharp and well tuned, do the older planes have any functional advantage over a new LV/LN plane? I would assume not, but if they are truly equal I guess I could call history a tiebreaker in favor of the old planes.
2) What older planes tend to make the best working units when tuned up? I don't mind putting a modern blade on an old plane if that factors in.

Thanks in Advance!

[Charles Bjorgen]

The following link gives you a pretty thorough description of Stanley planes throughout their history. In particular I would draw your attention to the Type 9 listing in which the author suggests this may be a good place to find good planes that may not command the high prices of the seemingly desirable Type 11 line.
https://home.comcast.net/~stanleyplanes/planes101/typing/typing.htm
I also bought the New Stanley sweetheart No. 62 low angle plane earlier this year. After reading several negative reviews, I carefully preserved all the packaging, assuming I would be returning it. Not so. I was pleasantly surprised and will be keeping this one to be used on my yet to be built shooting board, among other uses.

I bet you get lots of advice in this thread.

[John Coloccia]

You can do good work with a well tuned old plane or a well tuned new plane. That said, I don't think there's anyone that would dispute that everything LV and LN makes today is of higher quality than the vintage planes. Castings are better, the machining is better, the irons and chip breakers are more heavy duty and precise. There's really no comparison, IMHO.

If you have your heart set on a vintage plane, I suggest you buy one already tuned and setup. There are several people that do that sort of thing. If you really want to buy an old plane and tune it up yourself, go for. If you want to open a box, rub the iron on a strop a couple of times, and start cutting with a modern plane, buy new. I would personally buy new almost every time. Occasionally, I find a vintage item for a killer price that's in fantastic shape, but that's rare and it's almost always something like a 6" rule...rarely do I find anything with a cutting edge like that. Like you, I'm a user, not a collector.

[Harold Burrell]

I feel like this question has surely been asked, but I couldn't find it. Please understand I'm not trying to stir the pot as I imagine this could result in a heated discussion.

I'm starting to gain an appreciation for hand tools, and am at that point where I understand I need a few hand planes to do better work. I have a low angle new version Sweetheart, an old Stanley defiance #3 i'm refinishing, and a mini Veritas shoulder plane. I plan to use anything I pick up, since i'm not a collector, but can appreciate history if it's a bonus. At the end of the day I want the best functioning plane most of all. I don't mind putting in some labor to refurb a plane.

My Questions:
1) Assuming both are sharp and well tuned, do the older planes have any functional advantage over a new LV/LN plane? I would assume not, but if they are truly equal I guess I could call history a tiebreaker in favor of the old planes.
2) What older planes tend to make the best working units when tuned up? I don't mind putting a modern blade on an old plane if that factors in.

Thanks in Advance!

Oh, man! I love this discussion when it comes up! Really.

I thought long and hard about all this myself. I bought a new stanley #4 awhile back...it was my first handplane. I was not impressed. I used it "sparingly" at best. I later came across one of my dad's old block planes (an old #102)...it was actually handy.

I don't remember who or what it was exactly that got me rethinking handplanes. I started reading up on (and drooling over) the LV & LN stuff. Unfortunately...it was too pricey. Somebody pointed me toward older Stanleys and suggested I pick one up and tune it. So now I was left with a problem...Do I bit the bullet and spend the $$$ for the LV/LN that I can basically use "out of the box" (which appealled to my lazy side)? Or do I pick up an old Stanley/Bailey and tune it???

In the end, my cheap side won. I got one at a garage sale. It needed a lot of work. So I read up on what to do and commenced "tuning".

I'm glad I did. I have learned a lot about the working of my planes in the meantime. AND got some really nice users to boot.

I still remember my first REAL shavings...*sigh*



So...anyway...short answer...either way you go is cool. I don't know that one way is necessarily "better" than the other. For me...personally...I think it is oh so very cool to hold and use a plane that has been around for a 100 or so years and still able to make stuff.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

For me, it often breaks down to price - I've seen plenty of nice bedrock jointers, but when you see the prices folks ask at an antique mall or ebay, the little bit of extra cash for an LV or LN plane starts to make sense. That's why I really only buy used when I can snag a good deal. But then you've got to figure out whether the added time tracking down a plane that can be successfully tuned is worth it, as that adds to your time in addition to the time spent tuning. Eventually, hitting up flea markets and yard sales and whatever just sort of lost it's luster for me.

If you work on a concrete floor, modern planes made out of ductile iron are going to look a lot better if you have a habit of dropping things. I'd rather have a knocked up tote or a few file marks where I smoothed out a ding than a snapped casting from something made out of the old grey iron.

If you've little experience with planes, having one nice one from the new makers is nice to kind of give you an idea of what a perfectly tuned plane can do. But there may be other folks nearby, whether other SMC members or a woodworking school nearby, or maybe a Lie Nielsen handtool event, where you can try some stuff out.

You may very well know how a well-tuned plane can work, I'm not trying to say you don't know these things, you just mention starting to get more into hand planes, and I know when I first started using more in my work, there was this "a ha" moment when I finally learned what sharp really was, and what a well-fitted plane could actually do that everything clicked and a lot of roads opened up for me. I wish I had had someone to show me things or that I had learned these things a lot sooner, I would have spent a lot less time sanding and working with stupid router jigs to try and joint things and what not.

The other thing to look at is what you're using the plane for. If you're picking up a jack plane for rough work, I have a hard time justifying fancy and new. For smoothers, I can see myself going either way - a good example of a Stanley can easily be tuned to work excellently, but depending on the woods you work, you might appreciate having higher angles or something offered in a new plane. A jointer, I'd be tempted to go new if I wanted metal - it just feels to me like the precision machining of a new jointer makes the work much easier. Some of the vintage examples I've held have been pretty out of flat where it matters, and flattening a metal plane this long can be tough without making it worse.

I don't know what things are like out your way, but if $ is a real concern, but looking around flea markets here, wooden planes can be the best bang for the buck if you're willing to weed through the ones that are totally toasted or just vectors for bringing wood-borne pests into your shop. Even the ruined ones can be a good source of decent blades if you feel like tackling making your own.

[Roy Lindberry]

My Questions:
1) Assuming both are sharp and well tuned, do the older planes have any functional advantage over a new LV/LN plane? I would assume not, but if they are truly equal I guess I could call history a tiebreaker in favor of the old planes.

I have a pretty good lineup of Bailey planes. My number 2 dates back the the late 1800s to early 1900s. From there, I have a #3, a few #4s, #5, #5 1/2, #6, and #8. I think all are pre WWII, but they are a menagerie of different "types." Most of them are tuned and setup to perform specific functions, and those which I've fettled all work very well and perform their jobs pretty flawlessly. That said, I also have a Lie-Nielsen 60 1/2, and it does have its advantages. One of the best, is that it is made of ductile cast iron, so if dropped on my concrete floor, it won't break. I snapped the side of a Bailey #4 when putting it in the vise one time -that won't happen with the LN planes (I'm assuming Lee Valley planes are equally good for this, but I don't know for sure).

Another advantage to the new planes, is that the irons are available in A2 steel, which means longer edge retention, though they supposedly take more effort and time to sharpen. My experience has been that I sharpen my A2 and O1 blades in the same amount of time, but the A2 definitely doesn't need sharpening as often. While this is a plus for the new planes, there are many replacement A2 blades for the older planes, but cost of a plane, a replacement blade, and the time spent fettling an tuning an old plane must be balanced against the cost of a new one.


2) What older planes tend to make the best working units when tuned up? I don't mind putting a modern blade on an old plane if that factors in.

Pretty much all I have are Stanleys, so I can't really answer the question well. But I will throw this out there. I got a wooden jointer plane last year (my first wooden plane) and was amazed at how well the beech slid across the surface of the wood I was working in comparison to the iron planes. So I've been thinking about more wooden planes. That said, I like the ease of adjustment on my Stanleys. So I've been thinking about getting some transitionals, which often can be had much cheaper than other vintage planes. The main reason I'm not doing so is because I already have a good lineup of bench planes, and any tool money could be better spent elsewhere. However, there is some appeal to the ease of adjustment combined with the ease of pushing wood across wood as well as the ease of flattening a wooden sole.

[Curt Putnam]

If you are going to use your planes heavily, there is an advantage (that I see) to the new LV/LN and that is that, being more precise, they work faster. While a vintage plane may sometimes be as good as the LV/LN it will never be better, IMO.

[Jim Koepke]

The only advantage of an older plane will be likely to have over one of the new planes from LN or LV is the price.

As has already been said the modern machining and materials are superior.

That said, there are only three modern planes in my selection of planes.

One of those is an LN #62. This was purchased before Stanley's recent revival of this model. The old Stanley #62 was prone to chipping at the mouth and other problems. My advice for a Low Angle Jack would be to buy new.

Another is a #60 sized block plane. There are two Stanley's in this size in my shop. They are later models that do not have the full ramp at the mouth. In my opinion, this helps to dampen blade chatter. After about a year of bidding on ebay, my quest to acquire an older #60, with the full ramp, was abandoned and the LN #60-1/2 was purchased. It is undeniably a better plane than either of the Stanley planes of the same size. Its being a bit heavier is sometimes a disadvantage. The things that make it better is the thicker blade and the better machining of the body.

Even with the brand new planes my desire to improve things caused me to spend a little time fettling. The adjustable mouths were very near perfection when they arrived. My fettling instincts came into play by taking the adjustable plate out and giving it few strokes on a fine stone to make its operation just a little smoother.

All my other planes are older Stanley/Bailey planes. The majority of these were made before 1910. Besides my personal taste of planes with low knobs it has also been my experience that the quality in manufacturing planes fell off markedly in the late 1930s. I have handled a few that just could not be brought into a state that I would want to use.

The biggest problem with finding older planes is finding someone who is honest about their condition when they are selling it. It is best if you can see the plane when you are buying it.

If you have time, patience and some experience with working with mechanical things, then you can save a lot of money buying older planes and fixing them up. When it comes to making shavings, the shavings that are produced by a $10 yard sale find will be just as good as a new $350 plane from Lie-Nielsen. The old plane may not have as nice a blade. The old plane will definitely have more backlash in the blade depth adjustment and the new plane will most certainly look better, but there is no one who will be able to look at your finished project and tell what plane was used to produce the surface.

In a way this can be compared to cooking. Even though we have improved methods of cooking over the last century or two with fancy cookware, stoves, convection ovens and other kitchen gadgets, we can still enjoy a steak when cooked over an open fire.

jtk

[David Weaver]

For an inexperienced user, a premium plane is already fettled and probably easier to get working correctly. For an experienced user, there will be no difference if someone is dimensioning wood start to finish with hand tools, premium or otherwise.

Actually, I prefer vintage planes that are properly tuned because they weigh less. Otherwise, it makes little difference which tool, the marking determines the accuracy of your work. I'm not aware of the few professional hand tool woodworkers (who don't hawk tools or videos, work for a magazine or otherwise depend on new manufacturers for revenue through advertising or sponsorship) using many or any premium tools. The premium tool movement is a gentleman woodworker's movement.

(I have a lot of premium tools. I don't use them nearly as much as I did when I was a beginner).

[seth lowden]

Random thoughts:

I would disagree that the castings of the new planes are better. The machining and materials seem to be better. It will be interesting to see if the LN and LV planes stay flat over 100 years or more.

I will be contrary, and say that Mujifang planes are a really good value, worth looking at.

I will be even more contrary and say that planes are overvalued on internet message boards, and that a good cabinet scraper and a card scraper will handle a whole lot of work.

I am interested in seeing how the new Lee Valley PMV11 irons will be in old planes.

[Brody Goodwine]

Wow, thanks for the great advice everyone!

I think it's pretty clear to me I should at least get a few modern planes to begin. They fit the budget and I'm certainly not a highly skilled hand tool user, though i'm working at it. I do already have that heirloom Definace #3 that will give me plenty of time to adjust and get the feel for older units.

I still feel some draw to older units. Maybe it's the history. Maybe it's the chase. I'm not sure. I think i'll pick up a medium shoulder, LN jack rabbett, and a jointer from LN/LV and then fill in gaps with older units as time goes on. Does this sound like a good game plan?


That would give me:

- Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 12-139 Low Angle Block
- Stanley Definace #3 Smoother (reburbished by me)
- Veritas Mini Shoulder (not too useful bc the tiny size, but does cut well)

To Buy:
- Veritas Medium Shoulder Plane
- LN Jack Rabbett Plane
- LN #7 Jointer Plane
- A Better Smoother?

Thoughts outside of the size of the bill?

[David Weaver]

What are you going to do with the jack rabbet plane?

I'll admit to having one (the LN carriagemaker's plane, the stanley 10 1/2 or 10 1/4 copy, whatever stanley calls it). I'll also admit that it doesn't get used much and it was expensive.

[Mark Wyatt]

Over the last ten years I've handled and used a wide variety of different planes. I think my hobby has been more about trying different tools than actually using them to produce projects. I've owned and used the tools from many of the contemporary production makers like Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, and Bridge City. I've owned and used old iron planes from Stanley, Union, Ohio, Sargent, and Millers Falls. I've also owned and used infill planes, wooden planes, and craftsman made planes. I'm probably forgetting some. In my shop, like many folks on this board, you will find a combination of all of these types.

What I've found is that the performance of the tool depends much more on my skill (or lack thereof) than it does on the tool itself. There are craftsman who can do better woodworking with a knife than I will ever be able to do with a shop full of the finest tools.

I recommend you get the tools that appeal to you, for whatever reason, and then do your best to learn how to use them. Enjoy the journey, don't worry about the destination.

[Jim R Edwards]

I own a LN jack rabbet plane and love it. It's light, around 12 inches long and it's a pleasure to use. I find that it is a great compliment to my LV BUJ. Regardless of what plane you buy it has to have a sharp blade to work properly.

[Mike Henderson]

When I got started in woodworking, there was no choice - I couldn't afford new LN planes. I had more time than money, and there were so many tools needed to set up a shop. So I bought used and learned how to set the planes up.

If you think you'll eventually do most of your work with power tools, then don't put a lot of money into hand planes.

And just an added bit of information, the Stanley Defiance line was not Stanley's best planes. They were a "price" plane, perhaps aimed primarily at homeowners rather than professionals.

Mike

[Jim Neeley]

I think, like most things in life, it's a trade-off between your willingness to invest the time to find and fettle a vintage plane vs. the extra money, fit and finish some of the new high-end planes offer. Some get great pleasure on shopping for and finding a great deal, some from using their skills to fettle a rough tool into a finely working machine while others choose to work more hours and spend the $$$ to buy the tools nearly ready for use.

Neither is right or wrong.. just different paths to making fine woodworking projects!!

aka, "Different strokes for different folks!" :)

Jim

[george wilson]

The finer new planes have more metal all around,thicker blades,flatter soles,and better tolerances. Hurray for SOMETHING in this world that has gotten better,as opposed to MOST things(in quality).

[Jim Matthews]

Two things - the modern makers' planes are ready to go, right out of the box.
Even the blades are ready to use.

If you find that the tool isn't for you, reselling them won't be difficult.
Keep the original boxes to make selling easier.

For my money, the current crop of Stanley handplanes are just short of unusable -
they have so much lash in the mechanism that I'm either cutting too heavy, or too light.

If you're looking for a considerably cheaper alternative to cast iron,
consider one of Ron Hock's kits. In my opinion, a 9" long base is useful for 75-90% of most jobs.

My personal favorite plane is from HNT Gordon, but they're just as expensive as LV or LN.

I look at it this way - other than a shoulder plane, the mid-sized #4 1/2 to #5 1/2 planes are really versatile.
Specialized planes are, well - for special operations.

[glenn bradley]

All old rust and new technology prejudice aside, the best plane for you is the one that feels and works best for you. Some tools are just what they are and don't impart much of a personality to me. Unless a card scraper is really horrible, just about any will do the job for me. Rasps are very specific for me and I use specific ones for specific things whereas to someone else, they're just rasps.

For hand planes, the deciding factor for me was to get my hands on them. Used planes come inexpensive but, require some fettling and you won't know if you've got a worker till its setup. I winced at the cost but, had things to get done and so went new. Depending where you live and how much of a hurry you're in, getting your hands on the products can take a little effort. It appears you have missed the events in your area for this year but check back with Lie-Nielsen:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=1

and Lee Valley:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/home/Tradeshows.aspx

for their schedules. I was lucky enough to be at a show where both were present and got to go back and forth, back and forth, until I found what felt and worked best for me. I also made the effort to choose items I would not be getting for awhile as the opportunity was there and I wanted to get the most out of it. I am still getting tools from that list years later as Santa or my piggy bank and needs allow/demand.

In a nutshell, try to get your hands on as much as you can where you can actually use the tools. Don't be shy, ask questions, do things wrong, ask more questions. These things are expensive (in time or money) and you should go at it the same way you would any valued purchase that will be with you for a long time.

[Joey Naeger]

Mass is an important consideration if you're going to be using a tool a lot. I use block planes throughout the day in my job. I have equivalent versions of different blocks panes, old and new, and tend to reserve the heavier, newer planes for more precise work and the lighter, older ones for more aggressive work. Also consider your sharpening method. If you hollow grind your bevels and hone free hand, you can sharpen a thicker blade more easily. If you use a honing jig, the thinner blades go quicker. Also consider your time. If your buying a tool to use, is it really worth it to spend the time tuning? I think tools are there to help you make other projects. They shouldn't be a project all on their own.

[Prashun Patel]

Are you good at sharpening? I would instead invest my first money into good sharpening equipment.

Its tempting to get into old planes bk of price. IMHO, tho, this can lead to some frustration and misperception about how a plane should work. The LNs and Veritases work well out of the box and really enable the beginner to feel what a plane should work like. Once u have that target in mind, you can get into old iron.

Don't forget about a router plane and good chisels. Deftness with a chisel is IMHO a huge skill to master. I will tell u when I get there.

Last, know that LNs and Veritases retain their value very well. You will be able to sell most planes from these mfgs for very close to the new price.

[Jim Koepke]

Last, know that LNs and Veritases retain their value very well. You will be able to sell most planes from these mfgs for very close to the new price.

In some cases, they may actually sell for more than new. Some overseas markets have a huge tax on new items that is waved for used items.
In some countries the new items are not available.

jtk

[James Owen]

A couple of thoughts:

If you don't know or are not completely sure, then buying a new premium plane -- such as a LN or a LV -- will show you what "right" looks, feels, sounds and performs like. Then you have a bench mark, against which to measure when you tune up a vintage plane. I would suggest a new premium smoothing plane -- one of: #3, #4, #4-1/2, or #5-1/2 -- depending on your preference and the size/kind of the projects you undertake.

One general advantage of a new premium plane over a vintage plane is in planing difficult, swirly, interlocking-grained, spectacularly-figured wood. The newer planes seem to plow through it with much less drama and better results than vintage planes. YMMV.

If you like wooden planes, then take a look at an Old Street Tools or an HNT Gordon. They will give you the same kind of information about what "right" looks like, etc, as the LN/LV will in relation to a vintage metal plane.

I would also suggest that, if you decide to go with vintage tools, that you looks for tools made before WW II. They tend to be of much better quality than the newer tools by the same manufacturers. As another poster mentioned, Stanley, (Stanley) Bedrock, Union, Sargeant, Millers Falls, and Keen Kutter are some of the better brands for metal Bailey-style planes. My knowledge of vintage wooden planes is pretty limited, so I'll have to defer to someone more knowledgeable for recommendations on the better brands of vintage wooden planes.