Finding Shaper Cutters

[Keith Weber]

For years, I've been using my trusty router table to make all kinds of trim for the house. I found it fairly easy to find the profiles that I needed, especially with Rockler and Woodcraft stores within an hour's drive. What drove me up the wall, however, was how slow the process was. Many, many passes, so as not to bog down my little Bosch router. Luckily, at that time, I had more time than money. It seems that now, my life has flipped around and I have more money, but far less time. With time being a lot more precious these days, I really don't want to spend all my time pulling wood through my router table.

So, I bought a used Delta RS-15 Invicta shaper and a Powermatic 1hp feeder to speed up the process. The problem is, though, that I can't seem to figure out how to go about finding shaper cutters for the profiles that I need. For example, I've spent the last 90 minutes online trying to find a shaper cutter to cut base caps. It's a common profile, and is quite easy to find router bits to cut them -- but I can't seem to find any shaper cutters. The router bit that I've been using is the lower 3/4 of the blue Rockler bit in the picture. I found a similar, but slightly larger, Freud bit in my search, as well.

Can anyone point me to a shaper cutter like that? I would be nice to have a book or website that shows all available profiles in one spot so that you could just flip through the pages and pick the one you need. Most sites I've looked at have you click on many levels of written descriptions before showing you a single profile -- which is inevitably not even close to what you're looking for. I like pictures, not descriptions, when I want to find profiles. It can't be that hard! I must be missing something.

I'm itching to get this shaper running. It sure is a beast! Way bigger than I was picturing. Too big, in fact, to sit anywhere permanently in my small shop. I might have to weld up a frame to put it on wheels. FWIW, I have 1-1/4" and 3/4" spindles.

Keith
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[Ralph Butts]

Keith I am new to the shaper. I picked up a demo PM 2700 and used 1Hp feeder last Xmas along with some insert cutters for raised panel doors. I don't have an answer to your questions but a question myself pertaining to your post. Taking into account that I am a shaper newbie why wouldn't a molder be better suited for creating these trims?

[Keith Weber]

Ralph, a molder would be great for profiles like that. I'd love to have a Williams & Hussey, and if I had one, I'd just use it for this profile. For me, though, I picked up the shaper and the power feeder for about half of what I'd pay for a new W&H. I'm not talking from experience, but I suspect that the shaper will also be a little more versatile when it comes to building the doors and kitchen cabinet doors in the loft apartment that I'm building. Rail and Stile cutters seem to be fairly easy to find.

Keith

[Mel Fulks]

That's a good shaper.Check under corrugated knives .Schmidt and Grizzly have a big stock and if you don't have a corg head,you will need one .

[Ralph Butts]

Thanks for the response Keith. I would agree with your opinion on the versatility of the shaper which is why I purchased one as well. Thanks however for the answer to my question. Personally I have utilized Google for finding the cutters I purchased. The search provided me with a plethora of choices to begin to research not only the cutter but to find the best deal as well. You also might want to look at both Infinity Tools http://www.infinitytools.com/SHAPER-CUTTERS/departments/1375/
and Amana tools http://www.amanatool.com/shaper-cutters.html as a starting point. CMT also has some insert cutter head sets with three different combination sets fo profile knives.

[lowell holmes]

I have cutters from both sources as well as old Rockwell cutters. I'm pleased with both.

I have had to use paper (from file folders) to make the coping cut exactly fit on the Amana Shaker Door set, but that's no big deal.

[William Addison]

+1 on the corrugated head. Contact Stephen at W. Moore profiles. He/they are as good to deal with as anyone I've ever dealt with in any area and they truly know their business. For common profiles I usually go with someone like Grizz or Woodline.

[david brum]

I'm a big fan of the Profile Pro cutters, available with various branding. There are tons of profiles available. Here's one example of something close. You can also modify them if you need to. I've bought a bunch of CMT branded ones from routerbitworld. The cutters are very affordable and wicked sharp. I was initially concerned about the life of HSS cutters compared to carbide, but they've held up well so far. I've even recently rabbeted a bunch of plywood and mdf using one of these. Worked great. Hobby work, of course.








http://images.timberlinetools.com/cmt_690_038.jpg

[Jeff Duncan]

For larger profiles like crown you usually don't "buy cutters", you have knives made up. There are some suppliers who stock certain profiles but the advantage of having a shaper and corrugated head is you can create your own or replicate unusual moldings. HSS provides a better finish than carbide and holds up pretty well in hardwoods. Carbide is great for shaping mdf parts where HSS dulls just about instantly. There are a few other options as well, but those are the two most prevalent. So it's advantageous to buy a corrugated head and HSS knives to get going on making your crowns.

I also agree with David about picking up a Euro head. I have 3 of them so far with a fair amount of knives and they are just amazingly flexible for making up different profiles quickly and easily. They are limited by the height of cut, but well worth having at least one in your arsenal. The other advantage is the steel is very thin. So as you progress and possibly get to the stage where you may want to start grinding your own profiles, it's a very easy platform to learn to work with!

To start getting a feel for what's available in tooling go to CGSchmidt's website and look through their catalog. They offer quite a variety of tooling and can set you up with just about everything you would ever need for your shaper! To look at Euro tooling check out Amana Profile Pro. Several other companies have made a version over time, and my favorite are the steel heads like FS Tool used to have, but any of them will get the job done!

good luck,
JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

I agree about the corrugated cutter. Buying new shaper cutters will send you into sticker shock in a hurry. But a couple of nice leitz or schmidt corrugated head, and some knives will get you going in a hurry. These are very cheap compared to normal carbide cutters.

I get just about all of my corrugated knives from Oella saw, and Dave has lots and lots of used knives, so he may have a good deal on what you need. He's also set up with a cad system and little cnc router for making patterns for custom profiles, and the weinig grinder for cutting knives from the patterns. Basically, you just need to give him some indication of what you want, whether a sketch or cad drawing, and he will make it. Very patient, and easy to deal with. I've been to his shop a few times, and what is listed on fleabay or the website is literally the tip of the iceberg. For example, a while back I needed toggle clamps for shaper jigs, ans stocked up on destaco clamps at a nice savings.

The nice thing about the shaper is that the cutters are serviceable, and you can buy used, either from a dealer like Oella, or fleabay, craigslist, etc.

[Peter Quinn]

As others have mentioned, a corrugated head should be in your future for molding work on a shaper. i would't waste your money on a Hussey to make base cap, it has no real advantage except for curves until the face reaches 3"-4" width IMO. That shaper you have should handle pretty much anything up to medium sized crowns. For base mold, its run and rip a wide piece of 6/4 or 8/4 stock. Safer, and it comes out possibly better. With a corrugated insert head you can have profiles ground to order for use in non man made (ie hardwood) material in HSS, you can get carbide too, but its more money. You can simply send the grinding shop a sample of the molding you are copying, or you can send a line drawing, you can draw it freehand, most good shops can handle about any means you can use to communicate your needs for a molding knife. Some places have online catalogues of moldings, others are all cut to order just like making keys for your car!

You wont likely find a catalogue of "stock" profiles such as exists with router bits for the shaper in a 3 wing set up. Its just too expensive to stock hundreds of three wing cutters that only do one small task or produce one of the thousands of variants of any given molding type. A few places have a handful of offerings, freeborn has a few molding profiles, grizzly, infinity tool, katana shaper cutters, MLCS and others, but its very limited relative to the total set of possibilities. I like the Amana profile pro sets too, or the CMT version of "euro" 40MM insert tooling, these offer lots of basic profiles for cheap, but they wont handle every molding need.

You have lots of good suggestions for molding knife suppliers to search above. I'll second the Oella saw suggestion, I have used Dave's knives, they are great, and I have bought a number of used reconditioned heads from him including a corrugated molding head, good supplier. I also use CT saw and tool, they are my local shop and their work is good too.

[Larry Copas]

I've downloaded four mill-work catalogs from some of the big mills. Hundreds of profiles to page through. Sometimes I don't find one I like so I just draw it in SketchUp. Once I have the profile I want I fax it off to WDR Sales. Get a profile and quote back the same day. If ok, I give thumbs up and UPS drops it off a few days later. What could be simpler...well I have ground my own, but that is another story.

[Rick Potter]

Eagle has a set for handrail, with a 3/4 spindle.

Rick Potter

[Jeff Duncan]

One thing I forgot to mention is you'll have to get used to ordering your tooling with a rotation. When you order knives they need to know what rotation your spinning and where you want the top and bottom. With some profiles it may not matter, but for others it can be very important how you position your knives as it dictates the way your stock is going through.

As for used tooling I agree there are a LOT of options out there. I just picked up another Euro head this week off of e-bay for less than 1/2 what it cost new! Do your homework though, most of the used heads I've seen from that company the others mentioned above, are going for almost new prices! Unless it's discounted pretty heavily I feel safer just going with a new head from Schmidt or whoever you like. Saving $15 or $20 bucks on a used head that I don't know the history of isn't worth it to me. I'll spend the few extra bucks and have a new head that will last me the rest of my lifetime. Also remember if buying used brazed cutters the chances are very high you'll need to have them sharpened before using, so make sure you factor that into the price when deciding if it's a good buy!

good luck,
JeffD

[Keith Weber]

Thanks Guys,

Lots of good information here. Looks like a corrugated head is what I'm looking for for this profile. I take it that if you got a head tall enough to do medium width crown, you could use the same head for smaller profiles as well, if you tighten down or remove the screws not making contact with the knives?

Keith

[Mel Fulks]

You are not supposed to use a short set in a tall head . Most of us do it anyway. If two or more gib bolts line up over the knives I do it. You can also buy short gib set or use wood fillers. If you use wood don't tighten them much, or you will bend your gibs. I find the price of corg heads varies a lot,so compare . Don't buy any made out of aluminum,they never seem to be balanced. The bolts over the knives obviously must be tight. Always slide the knives a little before tightening to make sure they are properly engaged. "60 degree" corg is pretty standard now,but there is some old 90 degree stuff,so when buying anything used get all the details.

[Jeff Duncan]

I agree with what Mel covered. I usually cheat the other way and leave some knife overhanging my 2" head as long as it's not an excessive cut. I will say though that if you do any amount of shaping your going to end up buying multiple heads anyway. So in reality having a 2" head and a 3"....or even 4" head, (if needed for the crown), would not be all that bad;)

It's also a good point about double checking the knives! I installed a set one day and when I went back to double check it the grooves were not interlocked properly:eek: Not sure how I missed it the first time, but luckily I always double check everything in my setup before powering up.



good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

At home I have a 2" head, that does basically everything I need for my small shop production. I have a hussey clone for casings and crowns, so I never bought a 4" head, might come some day. I have put a 1" tall knife in a 2" head as Mel describes, cheat it, etc. I have also put a 3" knife in my 2" head like Jeff mentions, it works if the projection forward is not huge, at least at the over hang. I wont under write that technique, but it certainly works. You could also buy some blank knife stock with no projection that is balanced to fill the head, shouldn't cost much, we have some for the molders at work. Just corrugated steel blanks to fill the empty space in a larger head. Say you had only a 4" head, wanted to run 1" knives for a bead or something? Get some 3" blanks, problem solved. I probably would't run a 4" head with 1-2" knives on a regular basis, I don't like spinning all that additional head for no reason, but you could do it. Eventually its just easier to get a few different heads, or at least on 2" and one 4".

On the used thing, do be careful and watch the costs. I've never paid more than 60% the cost of anything that didn't come with an OEM warranty, and only them because it was second had but never actually cut wood. I've rarely paid more than 40% for shaper items that have actually been used, and I've paid as little as 15% the replacement cost for some pretty decent tooling. But I've seen stuff, even from vendors I've used, going just a few bucks under new like Jeff mentioned, and I wonder who is buying that used at those prices? So do some window shopping. A reconditioned corrugated head can make sense if it comes to you with new set screws, perfectly balanced jibs and a freshly balanced head. But not at $10 below replacement cost.

[Mel Fulks]

Peter, I agree with all, except one point. The knife blanks are good to have in a four knife head when using only two knives. Using blanks along side of short knives in a tall head is specifically not recommended by some moulding schools etc since a small thickness difference could mean that only the thicker piece is being held tightly and obviously the knives are sold in different actual thicknesses too. I used to use the blanks in the manner you suggest but decided that there was some merit in the "expert" warning. Sure they don't think much of using the wood either but it makes me feel safer if there is a lot of unused space.

[Keith Weber]

So, are 2-knife heads the standard? Like jointers, I'm sure that you get a smoother cut with more knives, but 4 knives for each profile could get a little expensive for a hobbyist. Good point about using blanks in the same slot as a knife! A little difference in thickness could get nasty in a hurry.

Keith

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah two knife is standard. The four knife is mainly for using two matched sets at one time, occasionally it can save you a separate setup. Buy the two knife unless you see a deal on a four knife.

[Jeff Duncan]

Yup, 2 knives are all you need and will give you a very nice finish. Remember that your spinning your head at roughly double or more the speed the average jointer spins at, so you are getting good CPI with the shaper. Most of the heads that use 4 or more knives are for molders that are running stock though at pretty fast speeds. They also usually grind the knives on the heads though, so really a whole other level of work compared to the relatively simple setups for shapers.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I agree with all, except one point. The knife blanks are good to have in a four knife head when using only two knives. Using blanks along side of short knives in a tall head is specifically not recommended by some moulding schools etc since a small thickness difference could mean that only the thicker piece is being held tightly and obviously the knives are sold in different actual thicknesses too. I used to use the blanks in the manner you suggest but decided that there was some merit in the "expert" warning. Sure they don't think much of using the wood either but it makes me feel safer if there is a lot of unused space.

All I can say is we do it all the time, never tossed a knife, you sure want to be careful where the gib screws are. You still need your small knife captured by at least two gib screws and your blank held firm too. There can be a little space between the two so one doesn't hold the other loose, the knife stock is pretty darn accurate on thickness, and a 4" gib will "flex" a little to hold the blank. Once you get to the point of putting a small knife in a big head, you have gone off plan anyway, so keep eyes open. I'f he is having knives made he could order blanks to match fro the same stock if he goes with the larger head.

OT, The DOT says I can't put wood racks in my van because they could fail in an accident and cause injury to passengers. i must use DOT approved steel racks. $$$$$. Yet my grandfather used shop made wooden racks in his plumbing van for 35 years to hold hundreds of pounds of copper and steel fittings and tools, never a failure. Maybe they used to make plywood better? Maybe they made drivers better? Maybe I drive better than their crash test dummies?

You should really have a head very close in size to your knives, or get knives made really close to your head size. For reasons I don't understand, we have knives at work that are barely 1" tall, smallest head is 2". On the better sets they use 2 inches of knife stock to make the short profiles so it fills the head and just grind back the unnecessary parts. So maybe thats a better strategy ultimately. I've never tried
wood blanks, afraid of unequal compression causing 4" head to twist a bit.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't think it's a big deal. I don't own a shaper ,it's just a work thing .On a job you encounter less than ideal tooling and I'd rather decide in advance what I will and won't accept instead of deciding under the pressure of the moment. Accidents have been caused by non lock edge shaper knives being not matched. One knife a few thousandths smaller is not properly gripped. The steel is sold by nominal size ,if I see a pair made from mismatched steel I won't use them .If they can't make a consistent product where it makes a definate difference why would the corg steel be made consistent when the corgs are what holds? For me it was just deciding to be consistent . A guy working for himself can easily avoid having to accept less than 100 percent safety compliance.

[Keith Weber]

I think I've got the whole corrugated head thing figured out now with the exception of one thing -- hook (angles). I notice that corrugated heads come with 10-, 12-, 15-, and 20-degree hooks. From what little I could find on the subject, the 10-degree ones operate more like a scraper, which would reduce tearout on some difficult hardwoods, but it wouldn't remove material as fast or as easily. The 20-degree ones are better for softwoods to reduce fuzzing. Some of the import dual-hook heads have 2 slots at 12-degrees, and 2 at 20 degrees. Now I'm confused. There seemed to be more 20-degree heads than 10's for sale. Is any one hook kind of a gold standard, or do I need multiple heads?

Keith

[Stephen Cherry]

I think I've got the whole corrugated head thing figured out now with the exception of one thing -- hook (angles). I notice that corrugated heads come with 10-, 12-, 15-, and 20-degree hooks. From what little I could find on the subject, the 10-degree ones operate more like a scraper, which would reduce tearout on some difficult hardwoods, but it wouldn't remove material as fast or as easily. The 20-degree ones are better for softwoods to reduce fuzzing. Some of the import dual-hook heads have 2 slots at 12-degrees, and 2 at 20 degrees. Now I'm confused. There seemed to be more 20-degree heads than 10's for sale. Is any one hook kind of a gold standard, or do I need multiple heads?

Keith

I'll defer to the local guru's as to which one is better for what, but I can say that knives are generally not swappable between the heads without changing the profile. So if you order knives, or resharpen, you need to know the angle of the head.

[Mel Fulks]

There are more 20 degree heads out there. If you can get a better deal on one of them,I would advise you to do that. I don't want to over complicate but unless you think you will be using mainly hard ,difficult grain wood it will be fine. If you can get a deal on 15 degree too, in combo purchase that would be good too. Many shops have only 20 degree. The 20 goes back to the time when soft woods like white pine were more widely used, non wood splitting nail guns and other factors decreased wp use and brought in more poplar etc. Many "didn't get the memo". This has been my trade for years and its rare that I see anything other than the 20 . The cheapest way to asure a good surface is specify M2 steel when you order knives and use the appropriate machine speed for head size and knife projection. For a four inch diameter head that would be 6 or 8 thousand RPM,in most cases. When ordering knives specify your hook angle. When buying them used,don't worry about hook angle.

[Mel Fulks]

P.S. four slot ,two angle would be good if you don't have to pay a lot more for it. It will be harder to find a two angle head used.

[Jeff Duncan]

My recommendation is to go with the 20 degree head as it really is the standard these days. I also personally wouldn't want an import head....that's just me though;)

At first tooling decisions can seem really complicated, but in reality for small shops it's not. You stick with the basic tooling which will do most of what you'll ever need. It's only when you get into running large quantities that you start looking into specialty tooling IMHO. The heads with 4 slots seem appealing, but I can't say I've ever machined anything where I thought I needed a different angle of attack. I don't do a lot of softwoods though....most everything I run is hardwood. Also with the 4 knife head you now have twice as many things to set check and double check before using.

I think you'll be happy running a standard head for most things. My opinion having run a variety of shapers and tooling now, is that the shaper itself is FAR more important than the tooling. You can run the best European tooling out there on a crappy shaper and not get good results. If your shaper is decent, the basic 2 knife corrugated head will provide you with quality cuts for just about anything you throw at it. I also agree about using M2 HSS as it has a very good life in hardwoods. I use it for everything except mdf. If you need to run mdf, for raised panels or such, you'll want carbide knives, (with a steel backer),.....but those get pricey quick.

Lastly, in response to Peter's post about his employer using 1" knife stock....the reason is most likely due to cost. Corrugated knives are usually priced by the inch not the profile. So if you take the same exact profile that fits on a 1" knife, and transfer it onto a 2" knife leaving the rest flat....it's still going to double the price of the knives;) I prefer to leave my knives a bit longer to fill the head as safety is more important to me than cost.

good luck,
JeffD