Oh Well

[ray hampton]

I understand that the ocean waves dump water into the subway because of Sandy, do they pump the water out or is there a better way ?

[Bruce Volden]

I would have to assume that the subway is BELOW sea level--henceforth pumping would be the only remedial action. BUT....I haven't lived there since 1966. I'll stay on flat prairie ground and endure the occasional -35F in the winters. I guess I'm the bigger fool. ;)

Bruce

[John Coloccia]

They're more or less always pumping water out of the subways...just not normally this much.

[Jim Underwood]

Yeah, but are they pumping out saltwater? My guess is no.. but what do I know?

[John C Lawson]

My understanding is that they have to pump the water, then repair any damage or corrosion to signal equipment, and repair turnstiles, escalators, etc. Although the news hasn't been very detailed, I doubt the entire subway system is flooded, just the key downtown bottlenecks. But I haven't lived there since 1986, so what do I know?

[Chris Damm]

They said on the news that 46 miles were flooded. That's going to take a while to pump out.

[ray hampton]

They said on the news that 46 miles were flooded. That's going to take a while to pump out.

46 miles , I understand 46 miles but do the water only cover the tracks or ALL THE WAY to the ceiling,, a well that wide and 46 miles long will contain ???how many gallons---pumping this water out will cost money, digging a exit tunnel to drain the water COULD been cheaply than pumping if this tunnel were dug at the time that the subway were built

[John Coloccia]

46 miles , I understand 46 miles but do the water only cover the tracks or ALL THE WAY to the ceiling,, a well that wide and 46 miles long will contain ???how many gallons---pumping this water out will cost money, digging a exit tunnel to drain the water COULD been cheaply than pumping if this tunnel were dug at the time that the subway were built

Where do you drain the water to? It's underground. You can't just go out to one of the rivers because it's below the rivers. There's no choice but to pump. They were designed with pumps for just this reason. There is a constant stream of water flowing into the subway from the water table, and it's constantly being pumped out by design.

[ray hampton]

how many cities in this nation + Canada got subway trains with this underground water problem ?

[John Coloccia]

how many cities in this nation + Canada got subway trains with this underground water problem ?

Not sure. It's not really a problem, though. It's by design, sort of like French Drains in a basement. Yeah, it's water where you ideally want none, but sometimes it can't be helped. Instead of just giving up, you just design for it. I would imagine that any underground system that is at or below the water table, under rivers, etc is going to have to mitigate water intrusion one way or another. This was a pretty major even and they're thinking it will take 4 days to get back to normal. Given it's long history of near continuous service, that's pretty good!

[Joe Angrisani]

....I guess I'm the bigger fool. ;) Bruce

How you like dem tornados and devastating thunderstorms/hail, bucky??

NOBODY is immune to Mother Nature's quirks.

[Myk Rian]

digging a exit tunnel to drain the water COULD been cheaply than pumping
The water would have to drain UP. Not going to happen.

[ray hampton]

The water would have to drain UP. Not going to happen.

water will flow or drain uphill, surely you remember the quake of 1812 and the mississippi flowing backward

[Joe Angrisani]

water will flow or drain uphill, surely you remember the quake of 1812 and the mississippi flowing backward

Water can't flow or drain against gravity. Surely the Quake of 1812 moved the land, and the Mississippi found a new "downhill".

[Greg Portland]

how many cities in this nation + Canada got subway trains with this underground water problem ?
Ray, cities have massive pumping & drainage systems for these kinds of problems. CNN had a picture of water up to the platform @ one subway station and the tracks were dry by the next day. Obviously the rails would need to be inspected / repaired prior to use...

[David Weaver]

I think the quake pushed a wave/surge upstream.

The river does flow backwards from time to time due to storm surge and wind from hurricanes.

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=3387&from=rss

That's hardly like flowing uphill. You'd go uphill, too, if the force pushing you was greater than the force of gravity pulling downhill.

[ray hampton]

[QUOTE=David Weaver;1999176]I think the quake pushed a wave/surge upstream.

waves alway travel uphill or upstream before they turn tail and run away

[Myk Rian]

Ray;
The subways are 30-50 FEET below the water level. Only pumps will get the water out.
It ain't gonna travel uphill by itself.

[Joe Angrisani]

....The river does flow backwards from time to time due to storm surge and wind from hurricanes.....

Backwards, yes. But uphill, never. In the case of storm surge or wind-driven situations, the water level increases due to those events and the water flows downhill off of the temporary artificial height.

[ray hampton]

Backwards, yes. But uphill, never. In the case of storm surge or wind-driven situations, the water level increases due to those events and the water flows downhill off of the temporary artificial height.

I am sure that someone here on this forum got a degree in engineering and could build a tunnel from N Y city to a southern state to drain the subway, how long are the Erie canal ? it are manmade

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am sure that someone here on this forum got a degree in engineering and could build a tunnel from N Y city to a southern state to drain the subway, how long are the Erie canal ? it are manmade

Ray....in the end.....it's cheaper and easier to just pump it dry......and that's what they do.

[David Weaver]

Backwards, yes. But uphill, never. In the case of storm surge or wind-driven situations, the water level increases due to those events and the water flows downhill off of the temporary artificial height.

Without any additional forces, water flows downhill. However slight it might be, when a river flows backwards (and the press releases state that it's not just piling up from flowing slowly, it's flowing backwards), it's moving uphill.

[Mike Cutler]

how many cities in this nation + Canada got subway trains with this underground water problem ?

Most likely every one of them due to ground water intrusion.
I work on pumps that can move 250,000 gallons per minute. Our total flow is almost 1.7 million gallons per minute. I'm certain that New York City has even bigger ones.
They need power more than anything right now.

[Joe Angrisani]

Without any additional forces, water flows downhill. However slight it might be, when a river flows backwards (and the press releases state that it's not just piling up from flowing slowly, it's flowing backwards), it's moving uphill.

Nope. Never. Can't happen. Water cannot move (or flow or divert) uphill.

Not even in Ray's world where things apparently flow from the poles to the equator on The Great Southern Canal.

[David Weaver]

Would you like to explain the USGS contra flow number that's greater than the river's usual downward flow? Water will flow in whatever direction the force is the greatest. If the force from surge or wind pushes it up a slight grade (even in the case where the surface and the subsurface are moving different directions), it will move that direction until the force of gravity is greater.

If you want to play semantics, you could state that it is pushed uphill rather than flow. But if it is actually moving in a different direction than it normally moves, and normally there are no other material external forces, it is moving uphill at that point.

That is a different issue than the old wives tales about parts of rivers that flow uphill all the time.

I don't know anything about 1812 because all you have is eyewitness accounts. It's not clear whether the surge from an earthquake moved water upstream, or if it only slowed the flow enough to cause tributaries to permanently change (leaving the lake in arkansas or wherever it is).

If I apply a force to water that is greater than the pull of gravity, it moves in the direction the net force moves it. If you're saying it's impossible for wind to blow water to a higher elevation, you're ignoring physics. You only need to look at your windshield when you're driving to see that occurring.

Address the statement from the USGS: "showed the Mississippi River flowing upstream at 182,000 cubic feet per second" and describe to me how what is normally moving up in grade is switched to meet your argument. This is not a difficult concept.

[Joe Angrisani]

Would you like to explain the USGS contra flow number that's greater than the river's usual downward flow? Water will flow in whatever direction the force is the greatest. If the force from surge or wind pushes it up a slight grade (even in the case where the surface and the subsurface are moving different directions), it will move that direction until the force of gravity is greater.

If you want to play semantics, you could state that it is pushed uphill rather than flow. But if it is actually moving in a different direction than it normally moves, and normally there are no other material external forces, it is moving uphill at that point.

In ALL of these circumstances, water is flowing DOWNHILL. A USGS contra flow number simply indicates that the water level down-valley has been artificially raised. And now the water is flowing off that new/temporary high point. It is not pushed uphill.

When the mouth of the Hudson River sees a high tide, it does not "push" the water up the Hudson River. At high tide, N Y Harbor water is simply higher than West Point water, and water flows (as it ALWAYS must), downhill from NYC's temporary level to West Point's temporary level.


If I apply a force to water that is greater than the pull of gravity, it moves in the direction the net force moves it. If you're saying it's impossible for wind to blow water to a higher elevation, you're ignoring physics. You only need to look at your windshield when you're driving to see that occurring.

Wind across enough fetch will certainly cause water to pile up, just as the low pressure under a hurricane can allow the water to rise (storm surge), or the Moon or Sun can pull it higher (tides). But it DOES NOT flow to that higher level by it's own nature. It DOES flow off that new artificial high. Water MUST flow from high to low. Heat MUST flow from hot to cold. Air masses MUST flow from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure.


Address the statement from the USGS: "showed the Mississippi River flowing upstream at 182,000 cubic feet per second" and describe to me how what is normally moving up in grade is switched to meet your argument. This is not a difficult concept.

Simple. I've tried to explain this several times. SOMETHING causes the water level to be raised (earthquake shifting land, earthquake setting up a wave, storm fetch, storm surge, tide), and the water then flows off this artificial bulge. If the bulge is higher than a point upstream on the normal river, water will APPEAR to flow upstream. But in reality, it is flowing down the new artificial slope until things equalize. This is also not a difficult concept.

[David Weaver]

Joe, you contradicted yourself. The wind "pile up" effect as you called it is exactly what I'm talking about. The wind piling water has far more influence on storm surges than does the lower pressure in a storm. The pressure only has a small secondary effect.

If you extend your argument, it would be as if it's impossible for a level behind the surge to be lower than the level at the surge, which is false.

You are fascinated with the explanation of a drop of water in a flow (at the top of a flow), but you're ignoring the net effect of a mass of water moving, regardless of what's causing it, that a mass of water is moving up a grade.

[Joe Angrisani]

......that a mass of water is moving up a grade.

Not without an outside force. You left out the part where I said, "But it DOES NOT flow to that higher level by it's own nature."

It is physically impossible for water to flow uphill. Once the outside force raises the local water level, it flows downgrade. It can only flow downgrade. The ONLY thing water can do is take the path of least resistance DOWN to the equalization point.

[ray hampton]

I need help from the residents of Canada to fill this in with the correct name, I understand that a certain bay on Canada East Coast got a young forest from the water edge uphill about 500 feet [elevation] and it finally were figure out that the hill on the opposite side of this bay FELL INTO the bay with so much force that the water flow or move uphill and push the trees out of the ground, when water move uphill it will flow unless it are in the form of ICE, when ICE move uphill it can stay there until it melt

[Joe Angrisani]

That West-Coast-Canada or Alaskan event was a sort of tsunami wave, Ray. Outside force. Caused by the landslide across the bay as you stated. But that water didn't flow up the mountainside. The landslide pushed it. The only flowing that happened was after the event, when the water flowed back down to sea level. Any "sloshing" was caused by the displacement of water by the collapsing landslide.

[Rod Sheridan]

how many cities in this nation + Canada got subway trains with this underground water problem ?

Well, we only have 2 cities with subways, I live in the largest one.

Subways are always below the water table, in my case Lake Ontario, so salt water isn't an issue.

That said, water is pumped out of the sumps, however it's just a trickle normally, some seepage, some condensation.

If you put enough water into the tunnel, the pump motors and other power control/distribution equipment may also be submerged, which means pain staking washing, drying and testing. It would be a real mess.

regards, Rod.

[Joe Angrisani]

.....the pump motors and other power control/distribution equipment may also be submerged, which means pain staking washing, drying and testing. It would be a real mess. regards, Rod.

It's hard to comprehend the mess (and the scale of the mess) they are facing. Turnstiles - all manner of conduits - switch motors - track signaling - EVERYTHING - filled with moisture and muck.