How many cup hinges per door?

[Todd Burch]

I have some 3/4" MDF slab doors to make (yuk). I'm wondering how many euro cup hinges I need to use in each door.

Door sizes are:

8 Doors @ 13" wide x 54" tall
6 Doors @ 23" wide x 39" tall
4 Doors @ 16" wide x 19 1/2" tall

Hinges are 1/2" overlay, screw in (not press-in).

I have the blum hinge chart (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=blum%20hinges%20per%20door&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CGMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blum.com%2Fpdf%2FBUS%2Fhinges _per_door%2Fhinges_per_door.pdf&ei=HuKPUKCkAcT4yAGn8oDQDg&usg=AFQjCNGbm0gOeol5WnGhR7eVe2dflca9oQ&sig2=09VfSJx6KTBspdjNtn5Zew) that says how many (2 per door), but was wondering if anyone had any recent experience with heavier doors like this. The qty=6 and qty=4 doors will be in a laundry room. qty=8 doors are in a master closet. All doors will be primed well, edges sealed, and then painted (latex).

Todd

[Sam Murdoch]

Haven't had any negative results using the Blum weight/hinge chart. Are you using the ultra light or TruPan mdf? It is so very much lighter and easier on all systems including your body.

[Jeff Duncan]

The way I read my Blum chart you should have 3 hinges for your 39" and 54" doors! If you look at the chart 36" is about the max you can go for 2 hinges.

MDF makes for a nice flat door BUT, there are some things that will help you out . First when you paint it needs to have the same number of coats on front and back....or it will bow! Second if you can do it, drill for the dowels, screws don't hold nearly as well in mdf and over time they will likely loosen up. I really like the Inserta hinges as they are by far the easiest to install and work with and you don't need a press to put them in. I do have the press but it's more a PITA than it's worth with the Inserta's being available;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Todd Burch]

Oh, duh! It does say 3. I was reading the chart wrong. Silly me.

I have standard heavy MDF. Doors will be primed and painted both sides. Clawlock primer, latex paint.

I only have these 18 doors to do, and otherwise, I try not to use MDF (except for floating door panels).

To use the dowels, (Which I am not familiar with), would I need to buy new machinery or jig?

[Charles Brown]

To use the dowels, (Which I am not familiar with), would I need to buy new machinery or jig?

How are you currently drilling the hinge cups? Blum Press? Free hand? Blum Ecodrill? CNC?

[Don Jarvie]

Not sure of your budget but it might be a good investment to get a router bit set to make doors. It will make quick work of making all those doors and you can always use the set for other projects.

[Jeff Duncan]

Well if your going to do more doors in the future then a hinge machine is the way to go.

Otherwise you can do either the dowels or the Inserta with a drill press and jig. I'd guess there are off-the-shelf jigs out there? If not you could always make something up in the shop. FYI the inserta doesn't actually use most of the small hole depth, it only enters them maybe an eighth inch or so for alignment as the larger hole does the work. Dowels you need to drill full depth and without a press you could just tap them into the holes with a deadblow.

Don't discount mdf for doors though! I use mdf all the time for doors as it's a flat stable material. I just finished up some closets last week that required 7-1/2' tall doors. I like the light weight as I'm not getting any younger! I can glue veneers to it and not have to worry about using veneer core and keeping it flat! I also use it for flat panels, and if doors are going to be painted raised panels as well. One place I don't use it though is for casework....it just doesn't hold fasteners worth a damn:(

good luck,
JeffD

[Todd Burch]

Thanks all.

Another ww'ing buddy suggested I use these screws for the cup hinges:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=30305&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PLA&gclid=CK6i_s2kqbMCFbKiPAodkVwARA

I'm very familiar with MDF, and understand all its pluses, however I just don't like to cut and breath it. And, as you say, it is very heavy.

I'm currently drilling cup hinge holes with a 35mm forstner in a drill press with a shop made table and stops. For the screw holes, I mount the cup and use a vix bit to center the holes for the screws - not very fast, and there is room for error if the hinge isn't dead square to the door.

I have several router bit sets for profiling door parts. No shortage of tooling there. So many in fact, that it's time to make them all obsolete and buy a proper shaper.

I'll look into a hinge machine. I guess it will drill all 3 holes @ once. That would be handy and fast and error-free. I don't think cup hinges will be going away anytime soon. ;)

(BTW, I used to frown upon cup hinges - as I was a "mortised butt hinge" kinda guy, but I do love the self closing, silent, concealed cup hinges I used on my closet built in. No "snap" from a magnet or catch when opening and closing doors like butt hinges carry with them.)

Todd

[Sam Murdoch]

I have a Blum Ecodrill which is pricey as can be but does the job very well for drilling the proper depth, the system screw holes (not regular screws) and for maintaing the correct tab. I try not to jump around with the styles of hinges I use so that my settings are always good. It doesn't adjust very quickly.

Todd, your system with the drill press is fine and you could enhance the holding in mdf by using the proper size euro screw (which off hand I don't recall) rather than the dowels system. You would then need to get the proper size brad point with a stop, and probably use the vix bit first. Indeed time consuming but workable if you aren't making a living hanging doors. Yes, use an accurate square or veritas saddle square to keep your hinge properly square to the door before you bore the holes.

[Jeff Duncan]

Those Euro screws work pretty well also. You'll want to get a 5mm Vix bit for them and then you can drill them the same way your currently doing it....but they'll hold better;)

JeffD

[Sam Murdoch]

Those Euro screws work pretty well also. You'll want to get a 5mm Vix bit for them and then you can drill them the same way your currently doing it....but they'll hold better;)

JeffD

Yeah, perfect Jeff - 5 mm vix bit with 5mm x 13 or 14.5 mm euro screws. The 11mm length is too short.

244418

[Todd Burch]

I just priced an automatic blum boring machine. $3200+. Ouch. But, the good news is I get a discount if I buy a case of hinges and a case of plates (250 of each). Ouch again. My rep from my supply house is going to talk to the local blum rep to see what other options there might be, as this is WAY more than I can justify or care to spend. A template would be fine at this point! I just don't do enough doors to justify this. I have about 65 doors to do right now (just ordered the 5/8 MDF panel material and poplar frame material this AM), and even at that, the machine would work out to be ~$50/door.

[Sam Murdoch]

Here is the Blum Eco Drill. This is a pretty decent solution for the first go round though if you are doing 100s of doors in the future you are probably better off buying the boring machine. You should be able to buy one of these for less than $ 300.00 - like around $ 280.00, maybe less from your Blum dealer.

244420

[Todd Burch]

I saw that, but it drills 8mm holes for the (I guess) dowels, and I was planning on using the 5mm euro screws. I've looked to see if it comes with a different size drill, but didn't see it.

[Jeff Duncan]

No, no, no....do not spend the list price for one of those machines!!! They will lose a third of that value as soon as you take delivery of it!:eek: I tried through my supplier also, and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse......to say NO too:cool: I bought mine at auction in like new condition for something like $450.

Keep your eyes out and pick up a used one for anywhere between $500 and $1000 and you'll be much happier in the long run. If your in a rush you can get one off e-bay for about $1k just about any day of the week and spend....a couple hundred(?) for delivery.

Or if you go with the other jig keep the 8mm drill sizes, believe me if you try the Inserta's.....you'll never go back and mess with those silly screws again:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Bruce Wrenn]

Drilling the cup is easy. With a little thought, you could make a router guide that registers in the cup hole which would allow you to use plunge router and guide bushings to drill dowel holes. It would take a little effort to make the 35MM piece to fit in cup hole. Choices include, but not limited to: router trammel, face plate on lathe, fly cutter on drill press.

[Todd Burch]

Choices include, but not limited to: router trammel, face plate on lathe, fly cutter on drill press.

Bastardized cup hinge epoxied to the jig...

Good idea, but I've never really been a big fan of drilling holes with a router.

Maybe the easy way to go is to get the ~$300 jig, use the 8mm drill, and not use the 5mm euro screws.

However, with the 8mm holes, will that hold as good in MDF? What exactly am I putting in the 8mm holes?

[Stephen Cherry]

I just priced an automatic blum boring machine. $3200+. .

These machines come up used pretty regularly. My target price would be 500 spacebucks.

[Sam Murdoch]

Maybe the easy way to go is to get the ~$300 jig, use the 8mm drill, and not use the 5mm euro screws.

However, with the 8mm holes, will that hold as good in MDF? What exactly am I putting in the 8mm holes?
In spite of the overly cautious posts that I have written above - the Inserta don't really need screws or the dowels. The design with the expanding rubber sleeve and the extruded metal at the 8 mm holes is to keep the hinge square to the door as bored. I have never added screws and have had no issues. Use the number of hinges according to the Blum hinge chart. These are very secure, very easy to use and look great too.

Click on the installation/deactivation info at this link .

http://www.blum.com/au/en/01/20/12/30/index.php (http://www.blum.com/au/en/01/20/12/30/index.php)

[Todd Burch]

I'm thinking about buying this:

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/Sommerfelds-Hinge-Boring-Jig/productinfo/SHB/

About 1/2 the price of Blum's. Anyone have any experience with Sommerfeld's ez-bore jig? Looks very similar to Blum's.

I now understand how the plastic dowels work: Drill the 35mm and 8mm holes, hammer the cup hinge in, and you can unscrew the hinge from the dowels if needed and the dowels stay in the door.

[Jeff Duncan]

I now understand how the plastic dowels work: Drill the 35mm and 8mm holes, hammer the cup hinge in, and you can unscrew the hinge from the dowels if needed and the dowels stay in the door.

Good, now check out how the Inserta's work and you can avoid both the hammering and leaving the dowels in place when you need to remove the hinges;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Todd Burch]

Thanks Jeff. Just got back from my supply house. I had the counter dude get a dowel and Inserta hinge for me to look at. The Inserta is nice - super fast to install, for sure! But, almost a dollar more per hinge than the dowel version, so... not nice enough for me this time around! (150 hinges is $150!!) I went with the dowels. And, I just ordered the ez-bore from Sommerfeld - about 1/2 the price of the Blum jig.

Looking forward to getting these door cranked out. Last night, I got the 22 MDF slab doors cut out, and all but 9 of them profiled on 3 edges.

And thanks to everyone else who provided suggestions. I did also order extra hinges since now I know how to read the hinge chart! DOH!! :rolleyes:

[Todd Burch]

My Sommerfeld Drilling jig arrived yesterday, and I used it tonight to drill 58 holes in 22 slab MDF doors. It is SLOOOOOWWWWWWW. You have to clean out the packed-in MDF shavings after EVERY use. The pressure required to drill the 35mm holes is significant. The 8mm holes are a no-brainer.

When I first started using it, I drilled the 8mm holes first, then the 35mm. With this approach, I found the "fluffy" MDF shavings were likely to (and did once) cause the 35mm bit to not retract all the way back up into the jig, which causes you to not be able to remove the jig from the door! Not good.

Then I drilled the 35mm hole first, and never had that issue again. I used a 6 inch rule to clear out the shavings after every use. I haven't used it on solid wood yet, but I suspect the procedure will be the same.

In summary, perfectly accurate holes, at a significant time and effort cost.

I would think the jig could be modified to allow for some mechanical advantage on the 35mm hole. I could probably derive a jig for the drill press that would accommodate the jig and allow me to leverage the mechanical advantage of the drill press.

[Sam Murdoch]

Same problem with packing with the Ecodrill. Could use some mods to accept suction. The Sommerfield doesn't drill all the holes at once?
In any event slow but doable. Not a production jig by any stretch.

[Todd Burch]

One hole @ a time.

(Reminds me of the Johnny Cash song... "I built it onnnnnnnnne part at a time..... it was a 49, 50, 51-52,53,54,55,56, 57, 58, 59999999 automobile....")

[Jeff Duncan]

If you get more jobs for doors you'll want to look into a hinge drill/press. Put the door against the stop, push the button, 2 seconds later hit the other end of the door push the button, and done! They're expensive, but they're fast and accurate! Of course I wouldn't spend the money for just one job....but if you have other jobs coming in;)

Sounds like you have everything under control now so good luck!

JeffD