Please help, laser novice!

[Joe Holden]

Hi everyone,

We run a small business in the UK printing and selling edible cake toppers, which are essentially wafer paper or icing paper A4 sheets which we create designs for and print as we require them for orders.

We have been looking for sometime for a solution to being able to offer a pre-cut service to our customers so that they don't have to get their scissors out, which can be very fiddly when it comes to butterflies and flower designs which are popular, and often results in us receiving negative feedback as a result.

We have found on the eurolaser site that there is now tech which enables the laser machine to automatically locate the edges of a design by adding recognition marks to it which are located by a camera, this then allows the machine to know where to make the cuts based on the file you have loaded on your PC (they call this an optical recognition system), as we get through around 100 sheets a day at the moment this is certainly something we would require, as unfortunately no 2 prints are alike in terms of alignment from our printers, and I don't have the time to sit and align designs by myself.

I have contacted eurolaser and am waiting for them to get back to me with a quote for a laser with this tech however I'm not holding out much hope as it looks as though their systems are going to be too expensive for us. In the mean time we have contacted some UK suppliers who have quoted for machines that are unfortunately our of our budget which is around £7K. I know £7k isn't much, but right now that's all we can afford, so we have looked to Chinese companies for a solution. One company in particular seem to be offering similar optical recognition system as eurolaser. They are called 'Goldenlaser', and they call this tech 'CCD'. Is CCD and the eurolaser optical recognition system the same thing?

I haven't got the first clue as to what we would require from Goldenlaser in terms of power etc, and the language barrier isn't helping me to understand what we should be asking for. From what I have read online it seems that a fairly weak laser will do the trick with regard to our product, however, if we are splashing out on a machine like this, I think it may be worth getting a strong(ish) laser so that we can use it for other applications and move our business into more sectors such as acrylic jewellery, and possibly stone/glass engraving to get more fingers into more pies.

Can anyone vouch for Goldenlaser? Do you have any suggestions for the type of machine we would require? Can you recommend a machine in our budget from them/another manufacturer with the CCD system? Or would it be best to stay away from lasers totally when trying to cut wafer paper/icing paper?

Thanks in advance for any advice, please let me know if you need any more details?

Joe

[David Fairfield]

Before you invest in a laser, check out digital cutters. These are inexpensive and may do what you need to do, depending on the complexity of your designs. Also they wont char the edges or leave smoke residue.

HTH Dave

[Martin Boekers]

Trotec has an optical cutter, I know it can be a pain but you could cut out a template in card stock.

You set the card stock against the guides in your laser, contour a hairline slightly inside the perimeter of your graphic.
& make the cut.

Next take you graphic (printed icing paper) and aligning it to the backside of your template, a little tape if necessary
, then position back in your laser up to the guides and cut. I have done this for decals and it works fine, just a few more steps.
Not sure if there is enough money to justify the extra work. Don't forget you still have to create a perimeter outline for the cut.


A quick search for cake icing printers brought this up, did you check with the manufacturer of your printer to see if they have a device?

www.icingimages.com/products.php?link=E&ppage=1 (http://www.icingimages.com/products.php?link=E&ppage=1)

[Dan Hintz]

I suggest a slightly lower tech (but significantly less expensive) method. Print fiducial marks on your print outside the area of interest at known locations (like right at two opposing corners). Use the laser's pointer to align the sheet, then cut. By using the fiducial marks, you take care of any rotation in the print, and changes in scaling should be quite minimal if you're printing and cutting shortly thereafter. It shouldn't take longer than 30-60 seconds to align each sheet.

Or better yet, mark the expected places directly on the bed with a couple of pins in a jig, align the marks with the pins, and you're off... that should cut alignment time down to about 5-10 seconds.

[Joe Holden]

Thanks everyone for the ideas,

Dan - do you recommend a company that I should contact in the UK for this sort of tech?

[Michael Hunter]

Partly answering your question on Dan's answer -

Most lasers come with a "red-dot pointer", or this is available for only a very small additional cost.
The "red-dot pointer" does just what it says - it points to the same place as the laser beam, allowing you to make position adjustments without actually cutting or engraving anything.

The only "tech" needed in Dan's suggestion is a plate with a couple of pins.
The best material would be anodised aluminium - any decent sheet metal place should be able to make something for you and get it anodised for perhaps £50 or £60.
Alternatively, if the laser has a flat base to the bed (as opposed to rails), then just mark where the fiducial points will go with a fine felt-tip pen.

PS

It is worth looking at the computer controlled paper cutting machines as David suggested. The ones I have seen were aimed at hobbyists and might not be any good for working day-in-day-out, but maybe there are heavy duty ones available too.

A laser has a few disadvantages for your main use, but is also a flexible tool and you could soon find yourself making Perspex cake stands too!

As the main use will be cutting, then an inexpensive Chinese laser will be fine for the job - SO LONG AS you have enough in the way of mechanical skills to get it going and then keep it that way. HPC Laser in Yorkshire have decent machines within your budget (but beware the small very cheap ones as even HPC admit that they are just toys).
If you don't have the confidence to do the necessary adjustments, then you would need a more mainstream machine (European or USA manufacture), but these will probably stretch your budget by a few K. e.g. Rayjet or Epilog Mini.

[Steve Clarkson]

Is a laser considered food safe? I know that I would never eat anything cut on my laser.......even if I cleaned it more often......

[Dan Hintz]

Dan - do you recommend a company that I should contact in the UK for this sort of tech?

Making a jig is easy. Let's say your sheet of interest is 800mm x 1000mm in size, and the fiducial marks (simple crosses) are printed at the outmost corners of the page. Printers won't print right at the corners, so they'll be inside by, let's say, 20mm. Cut a " picture frame" jig out of clear plastic with the outside dimensions something easy to work with, say 1000mm x 1200mm... the inside cutout dimensions would be your paper size minus the distance the fiducials are printed inside the paper (20mm), so 760mm x 960mm. The jig is always pushed up into the corner of the cutting bed, and the paper is placed beneath with the fiducials right at the inner corners of the jig. Since the fiducials are printed relative to the design on the paper, if you line up the fiducials to the jig, you know exactly where the design is relative to the jig, and therefore relative to the laser.

[Michael Hunter]

Guess Steve avoids BBQs too ....

[matthew knott]

Joe, what's the maximum size you need to cut?

PS lasers are food safe, used for many things, example marking logos onto bread loafs, putting fake lines onto burgers so they looked flame grilled, logos onto icecream cones, to name but a few !!!!

[Dan Hintz]

Guess Steve avoids BBQs too ....


PS lasers are food safe, used for many things, example marking logos onto bread loafs, putting fake lines onto burgers so they looked flame grilled, logos onto icecream cones, to name but a few !!!!

To be fair to Steve, he's right. Food processing equipment is specially designed to be used in said manner... lead screws are either protected or use a food-safe grease, surfaces are protected from contamination (e.g., stainless steel) or cleaned appropriately (such as autoclaving), etc. Unfortunately, the typical laser system is not designed to be used in such a manner. Could you get away with it? Likely... as long as no one finds out and turns you in. Local health inspectors look down upon such things. For example, if you use your home kitchen for baked goods made to be sold, the health inspector will need to make a site visit to ensure things like pet hair aren't floating around.

[Steve Clarkson]

Thanks Dan!

I'm just saying that if a health inspector watches him cut some acrylic to make a cake stand, then engrave some Rowmark to make a nice sign, and then put food on that filthy honeycomb table and cut it............there's no way he will allow that.

[matthew knott]

See you point Steve, i just thought you meant in general 'are lasers ok in food' obviously the exact machines most people have here have not been designed to be used in a food safe environment, the ones I installed all where with the correct IP ratings and materials used (bespoke special machines). These where all used in very large food plants, but you would be amazed at what goes on in these places, put you off your food !!

[Jerome Stanek]

If you check imported lasers have to be FDA approved.

[Mike Null]

Jerome

Can you post that regulation?

[Mark Ross]

FCC not FDA.

[Joe Holden]

Hi Matthew, the maxwe are looking at cutting would be A2 paper size.

[Joe Hillmann]

Have you thought of using a vinyl cutter or a circut (http://www.cricut.com/home/) I don't know if either of them would work but they are both much cheaper than a laser. Also, from what I understand, the optical alignment system is common on vinyl cutters. I am not trying to talk you out of a laser, they are great tools but I question if it is the best tool for the job you want it to do.

[Chuck Stone]

Have you thought of using a vinyl cutter or a circut (http://www.cricut.com/home/) I don't know if either of them would work but they are both much cheaper than a laser.

I've looked at the Cricut several times and always passed on it because it wouldn't
allow creating your own artworks. Had to use whatever came on the cartridge you
bought. I'd never want a cartridge.. it would all be custom.

Maybe they've changed that now?

[Luann Brainard]

Is a laser considered food safe? I know that I would never eat anything cut on my laser.......even if I cleaned it more often......


Our Epilog salesman told us they lasered their logo into hotdog buns for an open house. He assured me it was food safe. I always wanted to try to laser sugar cookies..one of these days.
Luann

[Dan Hintz]

Our Epilog salesman told us they lasered their logo into hotdog buns for an open house. He assured me it was food safe.

I guarantee an FDA inspector would see things differently.

There's nothing inherently wrong with lasering food, it's all of the other components and liquids that are a problem.

[Michael Hunter]

Joe, the OP, is using some sort of printer to make his sheets - hopefully he already has some knowledge of the use of techy machinery in the food business.

In the UK it is pretty easy to find out if a process is acceptable - just ask Trading Standards : it is their job to help.

After some sillyness over enforcing EU rules about glass jam-jars, Trading Standards (run at county level) have been publicly urged to "use a bit of common sense" by the Health and Safety Executive (run at national level) and should not, therefore, say "No", just because they have not seen a process before.

I think one could make a pretty good case that a Trotec (with its hidden belts and bearings) would be perfectly safe for the sort of "food" in question.
On a more typical laser, one would need to consider rubber dust from the belts which may or may not be thought a problem. Gloops of bearing grease would make the product unsaleable, so not really a safety problem.

[Jiten Patel]

Trotec offer ICUT which is an optical recognition system. You print your media with whatever graphic and Reg marks and load the file into the system. The camera find the Reg marks and cut a perfect cut around the printed graphic. Now this is quite an expensive system (£5000ish) on top of the price of the machine. Not sure is a vinyl plotter cutter would do the trick?

[Mike Null]

I am an avid Trotec fan but I-cut is simply way over-priced for what it does. I bought a Graphtec vinyl cutter with the same optic features for well under half the price of the I-cut feature by itself. I think a vinyl cutter would work.

[Jiten Patel]

I agree Mike, but you gotta admit, when you see it - it's bloody impressive. It is so accurate, it cuts without the need for any bleed on the print which is incredible. If it was more like £1k, it may be worth it, but 5k is a little extortionate.