kitchen cabinet design dilema

[scott vroom]

I've built an outside corner wall run in a kitchen cabinet job....pics tell the story. You can see the finished end panel proud of the open cabinet. You can also figure out that the door that will go on the open cabinet will be on the same plane as the finished end panel. The dilema is how to apply crown. Any suggestions? My solution was to fur behind the crown where it passes over the cabinet that is open in the pic, but now I'm thinking that's a lame design. I'm considering remaking the wrap around run, but even then I can't think off a better way to do the crown.

Thankfully this is my own kitchen and not a paying job....I really think I botched the design. How would you guys 1) adapt the crown to the existing design, or 2) do it over from scratch?

[Sam Murdoch]

Scott, consider adding a full plywood cap with the crown attached to that. The cap should be big enough to flush out with the outermost faces of the cabinetry before attaching the crown. Once fitted the crown can be attached on the bench then just place the finished cap in place held down by screwing through the top of the uppers.

If you don't have enough ply left from your project to do a full top, at the least make up 3" or 4" rips to overlay the front edges then apply the crown to that. The first option is much easier. Be sure to finish the underside of your overlay ply that will be exposed.

[Sam Murdoch]

I can't see how far down the wall the cabinet with the doors runs in photo 2. And if I understand correctly you are intending that the doors that will go on the currently open cabinet will be in the same plane as the panel to the left and the same height. In other words there will not be a piece of face frame visible above those doors as on the other elevation.

On that basis, my thinking is that adding another 3/4" ply top to the entire assembly - flush to the face of the panel and flush to the face of the face frame on the left - makes a good landing for the crown. Yes, when you open the doors on the right you will see a 3/4" "ceiling" behind the crown but that would look fine.

Now, it occurs to me now that you might need to do this on ALL your upper cabs to have it look right, but I don't have the big picture. You might be too far down the road with your other crown for this to work.

I see you have 2 other choices.

1) Apply a finished filler piece that runs wall to finished panel on the top of the face frame to the open cabinet. The door(s) would sit below that rail and the crown would carry around the cabinet. It will look different but that's where you are in any case.

2) Apply a completely separate face frame so that the new doors are in the same relationship to the finished panel as are the uppers to the left. This would result in some "look" issues when the doors are open but otherwise all would look right when the doors are closed.

Forgive me if I am missing the big picture.

[scott vroom]

Sam, not sure I'm explaining clearly. Attached is a top view...you can see the finished end panel sitting on the FF plane....now picture the crown traversing the finished end panel....what happens where the finished end panel ends? The crown, if extended in a straight line, would be positioned 3/4" above the faceframe! Ny solution was to use hardwood backer (basically acting as furring) behind the crown. But I'm not sure I'm going to like the way that will look once the new door is attached to the open cabinet.





Scott, consider adding a full plywood cap with the crown attached to that. The cap should be big enough to flush out with the outermost faces of the cabinetry before attaching the crown. Once fitted the crown can be attached on the bench then just place the finished cap in place held down by screwing through the top of the uppers.

If you don't have enough ply left from your project to do a full top, at the least make up 3" or 4" rips to overlay the front edges then apply the crown to that. The first option is much easier. Be sure to finish the underside of your overlay ply that will be exposed.

[scott vroom]

Sam, I think you have the correct picture. What I should have done (and can still do) is mount the open cabinet so that the faceframe is on the same plane as the finished end panel. This would solve the crown issue; the only downside is that the door on the cabinet that is currently open would be proud of the finished end panel. I can still make this happen by removing the open end cabinet, cut down the left stile (narrower) and reattach so that the FF mis on the same plane as the finished end panel.

There are tradeoffs with this type of design....no way around it that I can see. It really comes down to whether 1) I want to furr the crown where it traverses the existing open cabinet, or 2) pull the open cabinet 3/4" out from the back wall so that the FF is on the same plane as the finished end panel....crown problem solved but cabinet door now 3/4" proud of the finished end panel. I leaning toward #2.

[James Conrad]

Sam, I think you have the correct picture. What I should have done (and can still do) is mount the open cabinet so that the faceframe is on the same plane as the finished end panel. This would solve the crown issue; the only downside is that the door on the cabinet that is currently open would be proud of the finished end panel. I can still make this happen by removing the open end cabinet, cut down the left stile (narrower) and reattach so that the FF mis on the same plane as the finished end panel..

The above is the probably the most straight forward approach and what first came to mind as the quickest fix, but will kill your desire to have the false door side panel on the same plane as the other doors. Another option is to apply the crown at the top of the face frames of the cabinets and just apply using a nailing strip attached to the top of the cabinets, but if you already have crown installed elsewhere in the build this will throw off the face frame reveal between the doors and crown.

If you can remove that false door, trim the top of it to be flush with the top of where the doors land, apply a strip of veneer, match to look like the face frame and notch the left cabinet face frame at the top to match the false door height. Or, just remove the false door, install the crown notching the left cabinet face frame to wrap it, then trim the false door to height and install tight under the crown.

Another idea, is to create a new face frame to match reveal of the other doors, apply that in place of false door, shim out the the right cabinet to be flush with this face, trim the false door to match the standard door and reinstall the false door.

Or take the whole kitchen apart and start from scratch! :)

[scott vroom]

James, I'm already committed to nailing the crown to the faceframe fronts, leaving a 1/4" reveal to the door tops.

The finished end panel is t & g and glued to the cab side so not an option to modify that structure.

Even if I started the corner cabs from scratch, I'm still faced with design tradeoffs.

Probably the best solution would have been (as you've suggested) to make the finished end panel the same height as the door, leaving room at the top for the crown to wrap the corner and continue to the side wall. The downside to this approach is that the finished end panel would have the appearance of a door rather than an integrated end panel. Like I said, no way to avoid tradeoffs that I can see.

This is going to be a learning or me, hopefull I'll come away with a better approach to outside corner wall cabs with finished end panels.






The above is the probably the most straight forward approach and what first came to mind as the quickest fix, but will kill your desire to have the false door side panel on the same plane as the other doors. Another option is to apply the crown at the top of the face frames of the cabinets and just apply using a nailing strip attached to the top of the cabinets, but if you already have crown installed elsewhere in the build this will throw off the face frame reveal between the doors and crown.

If you can remove that false door, trim the top of it to be flush with the top of where the doors land, apply a strip of veneer, match to look like the face frame and notch the left cabinet face frame at the top to match the false door height. Or, just remove the false door, install the crown notching the left cabinet face frame to wrap it, then trim the false door to height and install tight under the crown.

Or take the whole kitchen apart and start from scratch! :)

[Sam Murdoch]

Here is a sketch of what I first proposed . The added ply in pink.

244284

Your idea of moving the open cabinet forward is a good solution too, though depending on what else you have done in the room, if it's not too late, adding another 3/4" top to all the cabs with the crown attached would make everything look consistent and intended. Again this doesn't need to be full tops, just ply rips, but I find the full panel with attached crown the easiest and cleanest way to go.

[James Conrad]

Well, then the only other thought in mind is determine the crown height and use a carefully applied skillsaw at depth, chisel and a little prayer!

Good luck with whatever you choose, I am sure it will be fine.

[scott vroom]

Sam, you're spot on with your understanding of the situation, and thank you for mocking up a model!

Your solution with the ply is what i first thought of....except I'd use a hardwood strip to "fur" out the crown rather than use the plywood cap....know what i mean? In other words, I'd tack a 3/4" thick piece of hardwood against the top of the open cabinet FF, then apply the crown over it....same result as your solution. Just not sure if that look is better than pulling the cabinet our from the wall and aligning that FF with the end panel of the adjacent cab. It can be easily done as the open cab is simply screwed to the wall, with 2 trim head screws connecting it to the adjacent end panel cab. I could pull the cab down from the wall, trim about 1/2" from the left stile, and rehang as described.

I'm really hoping to have an "ah-ha" on the "best practice" for handling this situation.....I'm sure I'll run across it again at some point down the road.

Again, many thanks for your interest.

[Sam Murdoch]

Sounds like you are settling in to a solution. 2 final comments:

1) Leaving the cabinets as they are and simply furring out for the crown over the open cab will keep that elevation looking correct. I think it will be odd to have a "recessed " finished end panel.

2) Consider the reveal that will result on the top rails around the room after the crown is applied. Will the reveal below the crown of the top rail of the finished end panel be consistent with the reveal of the face frames under the crown? If the answer is NO, I would build the "new" doors to match the look of the other doors in the room and NOT to match the finished panel. This might mean that you need to apply a filler that is more than 3/4" on the face.

My solution of adding to the top of the cabinet is more work (not really) but in the future consider this as a way to cap all your cabinets easily and consistently.

Anyway, happy building. Nice to spend a Sunday afternoon with you. :)


Oh, and if you add glass doors, I've got some halogen light sets I'd like to sell you (see the classifieds) :D

[scott vroom]

Sam, you asked how the crown would sit around the rest of the kitchen. The pic below is typical: crown will be nailed to the front of the FF, leaving a 1/4" gap to the top of the doors. Your solution #1 would be the same.....the crown would sit against the FF (with furring, of course) and would be 1/4" above the top of the door. The ONLY diference from the rest of the kitchen crown would be the 3/4" deep crown furring.

I guess I've now come full circle and will settle with the original solution.....although I'm not completly happy with it, and I still believe there is a better design from scratch out there....just haven't envisioned it yet.

[johnny means]

I would have grabbed a router and a step stool and rabbeted out the offending portion of face frame right there on the wall.

[Jeff Duncan]

Just a FWIW I've never seen anyone nail the crown to the FF on a decent kitchen....I think it will look funny! You want the base of the crown in the same plane as the front of your doors.....in other words it should look like the crown is extending up and out from the doors.....not the cabinet. Your idea of using a hardwood fill at the top is the correct way to do this. You don;t want plywood as you'll have an exposed edge that needs to be dealt with, and plywood doesn't hold nails nearly as well as solid! I think if you make a mock-up and look at it you'll see why you don't want to attach crown to the FF. Once you see this you'll see you have no problem with the way you built your corner cabinets.

good luck,
JeffD

[scott vroom]

Jeff, I'm making my own crown and the bottom of the crown will be 3/4" thick...same thickness as the doors below - this addresses the issue you raised (if I understood your comment correctly). In other words, the crown will begin it's "upward and outward" movement from the same plane as the door fronts.

Crown molding in overlay door applications is very common.....and how else would you attach the crown except to the FF?





Just a FWIW I've never seen anyone nail the crown to the FF on a decent kitchen....I think it will look funny! You want the base of the crown in the same plane as the front of your doors.....in other words it should look like the crown is extending up and out from the doors.....not the cabinet. Your idea of using a hardwood fill at the top is the correct way to do this. You don;t want plywood as you'll have an exposed edge that needs to be dealt with, and plywood doesn't hold nails nearly as well as solid! I think if you make a mock-up and look at it you'll see why you don't want to attach crown to the FF. Once you see this you'll see you have no problem with the way you built your corner cabinets.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

It would be attached to a filler strip. If you are making it in one piece it will look better if you can give it that look by having a reveal line rather than LOOKING like one piece. IMO. But not a big deal.

[scott vroom]

Hi Mel,

Could you add some more description? It sounds like you're saying that if I make the crown one piece I should design in a seam to emulate crown nailed to a backer?



It would be attached to a filler strip. If you are making it in one piece it will look better if you can give it that look by having a reveal line rather than LOOKING like one piece. IMO. But not a big deal.

[johnny means]

244413

This is how I would do this. All crown assemblies would leave the shop preassembled, making for easy installation.

[Jeff Duncan]

I can't speak to the look, but yes you attach crown to a hardwood strip. You can call it a filler, built-up molding, or whatever, but it's the way most custom cabinet crown is installed. In this way you can set it to the exact depth you need. For instance on a typical 3/4" door you would set it out about 7/8" as you also have the gap between the door and FF. I make doors a bit thicker so for me it's usually a 1" depth. Then when you attach the crown you set a reveal, this can be 1/8" or 1/4" or whatever looks good to you.

Also when you attach the hardwood strip it attaches to the top of the cabinet, so variations in the front like the one your dealing with don't affect it. Here's a couple examples of how I do it....
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_0115.jpg
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_0118.jpg

good luck,
JeffD

[scott vroom]

Pic is worth 1000 words...lol. Yep, I understand what you're saying. My setup is different: I intentionally built the doors to sit 1.25" short of the top FF rail: the wall cabs attach to a 3/4 height wall and I wanted the return to hit wall not air. I could have achieved this by desigining shorter wall cabs but as it is they're 30" and I refused to go shorter. My solution is to attach the crown to the FF 1/4" above the door tops. I'm basically doing what you're showing except I only need a crown backer to push the crown out from the FF and not the platform that sits atop the FF. I'm reattaching a pic to show the cab positioned on the short wall.


244413

This is how I would do this. All crown assemblies would leave the shop preassembled, making for easy installation.

[scott vroom]

Jeff, OK now I see what you are saying about the reveal...I didn't get it until I saw your pic. To be honest, I had planned to use a backer w/out the reveal but I can see now how a 1/4" or so reveal enhances the look and I'll be incorporating it into my crown design.....very nice work.



I can't speak to the look, but yes you attach crown to a hardwood strip. You can call it a filler, built-up molding, or whatever, but it's the way most custom cabinet crown is installed. In this way you can set it to the exact depth you need. For instance on a typical 3/4" door you would set it out about 7/8" as you also have the gap between the door and FF. I make doors a bit thicker so for me it's usually a 1" depth. Then when you attach the crown you set a reveal, this can be 1/8" or 1/4" or whatever looks good to you.

Also when you attach the hardwood strip it attaches to the top of the cabinet, so variations in the front like the one your dealing with don't affect it. Here's a couple examples of how I do it....
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_0115.jpg
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_0118.jpg

good luck,
JeffD

[Sam Murdoch]

Pic is worth 1000 words...lol. Yep, I understand what you're saying. My setup is different: I intentionally built the doors to sit 1.25" short of the top FF rail: the wall cabs attach to a 3/4 height wall and I wanted the return to hit wall not air. I could have achieved this by desigining shorter wall cabs but as it is they're 30" and I refused to go shorter. My solution is to attach the crown to the FF 1/4" above the door tops. I'm basically doing what you're showing except I only need a crown backer to push the crown out from the FF and not the platform that sits atop the FF. I'm reattaching a pic to show the cab positioned on the short wall.

You'll be fine with this plan Scott.

[Brian Ross]

244437244438I am with Jeff D. I do the crown attached to the filler strip in the shop. It allows you to fill any nail holes and apply the finish. You can just sit it on top of your cabinets and if room permits screw down from the top. I use a regular 4 1/4 in crown.

Brian

[Brian Ross]

244437244438I am with Jeff D. I do the crown attached to the filler strip in the shop. It allows you to fill any nail holes and apply the finish in the shop. You can just sit it on top of your cabinets and if room permits screw down from the top. I use a regular 4 1/4 in crown.

Brian

[fred klotz]

Is it possible to remove the open cabinet, fur the wall behind it, trim the face frames (left edge of open cabinet, right edge of the end panel) and remount the open cabinet with the face frame flush with the end panel?

[scott vroom]

Fred, yes it is....and I was considering that move, but that would place the door proud of the finished end panel which is not the look I'm going for. I'm settled on leaving the cabs juxtapositioned as they are and use a block behind the crown where it comes off the end panel and traverses the open cabinet.




Is it possible to remove the open cabinet, fur the wall behind it, trim the face frames (left edge of open cabinet, right edge of the end panel) and remount the open cabinet with the face frame flush with the end panel?

[Jim O'Dell]

I'd take the open cabinet off, cut and remount where it is flush with the end cap, like said above...it solves the crown molding issue. To take it one step further, if I'm seeing things right, I'd make a dummy door for the end cap so that it all looks the same. It's just that the dummy door won't open. It looks like the end cap would then look like a cabinet face frame with door. The end cap treatment you did would have been perfect if it wasn't for the other cabinet. Jim.

[scott vroom]

Jim, thanks for your suggestion...it's a good one. I had considered doing as you said, i.e. moving the open cab out 3/4" and then applying a finished "dummy" door (appropriate in my case) over the existing finished end panel. The end result would be planar FF and doors on that corner run....problem solved. My only concern is that the faux door end panel would be out of synch with every other finished end panel in the kitchen (the reason I built finished end panels vs faux doors was to avoid a Kraftmaid, etc. look). Still, the idea has merit and I'm mulling it over.



I'd take the open cabinet off, cut and remount where it is flush with the end cap, like said above...it solves the crown molding issue. To take it one step further, if I'm seeing things right, I'd make a dummy door for the end cap so that it all looks the same. It's just that the dummy door won't open. It looks like the end cap would then look like a cabinet face frame with door. The end cap treatment you did would have been perfect if it wasn't for the other cabinet. Jim.

[James Conrad]

Jeff, I'm making my own crown and the bottom of the crown will be 3/4" thick...same thickness as the doors below -

Hi Scott,
You have received a ton of advice, and I had one more thought as I think you are headed in the "filler strip" direction. You mention above that you are going to mill the bottom of the crown 3/4" thick, and whatever final thickness you decide on, you will still have to adjust the crown on this run so that it doesn't stand proud of your doors by another 3/4" with that filler strip behind it, that would look pretty bad I think. So, either you have to produce crown here that won't have the 3/4" added to it and use a filler strip on the operational cabinet or rip it off for the portion that goes over the end panel. You would then want to do the same for other end panels so it matches throughout the kitchen.

If you have not made the crown yet, what Jeff has proposed is the way to go and produce crown without that 3/4 thickness, and an extra 1/4" reveal would look pretty sharp.

James

[scott vroom]

James, good observation and excellent point....if I go with the backer strip on that open cab I'll also use a backer strip throughout, which means my crown will not be 3/4" wide at the bottom otherwise it would be proud of the door fronts. Thanks for highlighting this!

This is a great thread, at least for me, 'cause the suggestions are helping me think more fully through the design challanges...one of the big benefits of this forum.




thought as I think you are headed in the "filler strip" direction. You mention above that you are going to mill the bottom of the crown 3/4" thick, and whatever final thickness you decide on, you will still have to adjust the crown on this run so that it doesn't stand proud of your doors by another 3/4" with that filler strip behind it, that would look pretty bad I think. So, either you have to produce crown here that won't have the 3/4" added to it and use a filler strip on the operational cabinet or rip it off for the portion that goes over the end panel. You would then want to do the same for other end panels so it matches throughout the kitchen.

If you have not made the crown yet, what Jeff has proposed is the way to go and produce crown without that 3/4 thickness, and an extra 1/4" reveal would look pretty sharp.

James[/QUOTE]