Looking for a hard stone.

[Joey Naeger]

I use hand tools constantly in my job and sharpen something daily. I've tried a few different methods and really have no trouble getting an exceptional edge on whatever I'm using. I could continue using the setup I have now forever and probably be completely happy, but there are some things I'd like to improve. What sparked all of this was trying out my coworkers frictionite stone. This stone feels amazing to sharpen on. The stone is super hard and there is zero ambiguity when you lay the bevel down. Sharpening curved blades such as gouges and knives become much easier on this stone. I'm currently using the set of sigma power stones Stu sells and I really enjoy the 1,000 grit stone a lot. It's close to having that hard feeling of the frictionite and it cuts nice and quickly. The 6,000 and 13,000 have this soft, ambiguous feel however, and while I can make it work, I'd prefer to have that great feedback you get from a harder stone. If I could find a stone that is hard, flat, and gives great feedback that I could use off the 1,000 grit stone that would be fantastic.

[Archie England]

Wow! We've got vastly different experiences!!!! My 1k Sigma power is much mushier than its 1200 counterpart. My Sigma 6k is hard, hard, hard; the 13,000, just a tad softer, and the 10k is still yet softer than either the 6k or 13k. So I amazed to hear you say the 1k is very hard and the others are softer. For me, the Sigma 6k defines hardness for all other such stones. Now, my chosera stones are as hard or harder than the Sigmas but I don't own the 5k--just the 1,3,&10k in the upper range. I hear that Shapton Pro stones are harder than either!

Just my experience ...

[Chris Griggs]

Naniwa Snow White 8k (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?186239-Naniwa-Snow-White-8k-A-review-and-a-thank-you&highlight=) is a hard stone with very good feedback. You can easily go straight to it from a 1k ( I go straight to it from a Cho 800 these days). If you want the hardest you can find I'm told there's nothing harder than the shapton pros though in terms of commonly available synthetic stones. Dave Weaver has tried A LOT of stones and he still swears by those as his favorite because of their uber hardness. Depends what you want I guess.

I'm surprised you feel that way about the 6k - I consider it to be a kinda what your describing you want. Hard but with good feedback. Though its not crazy hard and does feel hard in a different way then the 1k.

When I get home tonight I'll compare the "feel" of the sigma 1k to my snow white and re post on there similarity and difference.

[george wilson]

I have a LARGE,rare double sided frictionite stone that is new if you would like. It has not been used,but has cracks on the fine side which are thin and do not impair its use. A friend has it right now as I had several frictionites and Super Punjabs I bought back in the 70's and are new in the wrapper. He sharpened his straight razor on it and it shaves very nicely. He has been selling the stones for me. These stones are now valuable as they are popular with wet shavers and,of all things,Australian axe throwers.

I'll have him get in touch with you. These large stones were made at the time to use in razor factories,and are super rare. Nearly as long as 2 regular size frictionite stones.

[David Weaver]

I have seen no modern finish stone that is as nice as a frictionite stone. Hands down none that i have used can come close consistently on a razor. and no stone comes close for feel, not even a chosera. not even close.frictionites cost the moon, though. i have georges stones. what specifically have you used, an 825, or a #00?

[Chris Griggs]

What the heck is a frictionite stone?

RE comparing my stones: I just went and used my sig 1k, 6k and snow white side by side. The SW is that hardest but not by a landslide. All three feel different, but honestly I'm not sure the snow white is enough different in terms of hardness for me to recommend it over what you already have. The subjective "feel" of various stones is just so hard to compare in words.

[David Weaver]

Frictionites are old resin bound very fine razor hones from the now defunct American Hone Company. They were intended to supercede the popular highest quality razor hones (thuringians, coticules, japanese waterstones - the latter of which was sold to barber trades at least as far back as the late 1800s).

They are a stone that nobody else has been able to duplicate since, and I doubt many have tried. I don't know what the abrasive was in them, but they claim to have a squarer abrasive (as opposed to the shard like abrasives that we have in most synthetic stones), I think the abrasive was some sort of graded natural abrasive. I don't know how long American Hone Company was making resin bound stones, but it was probably 100 years or so.

I'd describe the feel of a razor on a frictionite #00 as being as much smoother and harder than a chosera as a chosera is that compared to something softer and more skippy. They're just something else, and the last lady who worked at Am hone putting them together has died. The company sold off the last of their stuff sometime in the early 2000s.

[Joey Naeger]

I'm not sure if it's really hardness that I'm after or what. I know on one level that the 1k is the softest of the group, but it doesn't feel like that under the steel. Part of the issue might have to do with how sticky the 6k and 13k stones feel. It sounds like I just want a frictionite...


Wow! We've got vastly different experiences!!!! My 1k Sigma power is much mushier than its 1200 counterpart. My Sigma 6k is hard, hard, hard; the 13,000, just a tad softer, and the 10k is still yet softer than either the 6k or 13k. So I amazed to hear you say the 1k is very hard and the others are softer. For me, the Sigma 6k defines hardness for all other such stones. Now, my chosera stones are as hard or harder than the Sigmas but I don't own the 5k--just the 1,3,&10k in the upper range. I hear that Shapton Pro stones are harder than either!

Just my experience ...

[David Weaver]

You might want to try an 8k or 12/15k shapton professional if you're looking for the feeling that the stone is talking back to you when you put something on it. Another possibility could be a vintage translucent or black arkansas with 1/2 micron diamond powder sprinkled on it.

[Joey Naeger]

I was wondering about the harder arkansas stones. Do you have any experience with the Sydercos as well? I'm not terribly concerned about cutting speed as the 1k stone will handle most of the work.

[Stuart Tierney]

You'll need to look away from conventional 'waterstones' to get something genuinely harder than the 6K. Don't soak that one and give it a try. Just a little water before use, and a little water occasionally. Honestly, the 6K is hard.

13K, yes it's relatively soft. There are harder stones out there that can do it's job, kind of. In the mean time, stop soaking it and just use a little water on a dry stone before you use it.

I'm reluctant to suggest anything else at the moment, and please ask you try the stones you have as dry as possible. They still may not be to your liking, but they may be better. The drier they are and you can still use them, the 'harder' they tend to behave.

If there's anything else I can do to help, one way or another, shoot me an email please.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Oh, just do it.... i know what you're going to mention :p

[David Weaver]

I was wondering about the harder arkansas stones. Do you have any experience with the Sydercos as well? I'm not terribly concerned about cutting speed as the 1k stone will handle most of the work.

The spyderco is the hardest thing you'll ever find, well, almost, I guess the nickel plate on a diamond hone is harder.

I like the spyderco OK, and I know george likes them (they are the reason his frictionites didn't get totally used up). They can be a little trickier because they are a more capable stone in terms of cutting faster or finer, but that means that they can also get into one mode or another that you don't want them in. Plus, they come with nasty mill marks that are a lot of work to remove. They can cut as fast as the fastest 8k stone if they're refreshed or finer than any softer stone if they're allowed to settle in, but at that point they cut so slow that you can't really go directly to them from a 1k stone. (speaking about the ultra-fine spyderco, of course).

Both the sypderco and the hard trans/hard black arkansas stones will allow you to sharpen any edge pushing or pulling without gouging the stone, even on very narrow or pointy blades.

[george wilson]

Ceramic stones are MUCH harder than any Arkansas. I have easily reground broken Arkansas slip stones to different shapes with ceramic belts on my belt grinder. The grinder won't touch a ceramic stone. They're made of the same stuff. The ceramic belt will easily eat up nickel,too. It isn't the nickel(as you know),it's the diamonds that are hard.

[Steve Bates]

Wow! Thanks, David, for the history lesson. Never heard of Frictionite before now. I'm using a hard arkansas stone you sold me on my razors and I'm trying to learn to get it "Hanging Hair" sharp. That piece of leather you included sure helps as well.

I reckon I need to PM George about his inventory for sale. I'd like to try one out.

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, all I really use now is a DMT Duo Course/Fine (for rough grinding) and general maintenance happens on Spyderco stones and a strop. Even my beloved Worksharp lays dormant except for establishing bevels on damages edges. I just wish the spyderco stones came flatter. The ultra fine stone seems to be FLAT. I wish their other stones were flat.

[george wilson]

Anyone wanting a frictionite stone: Contact David Weaver,I sent him all of my frictionite stones as he knows his way around in the straight razor shaving World. He negotiates all the prices,too.As of this moment,we have only 1 LARGE double sided frictionite with small cracks from drying out in the fine side,but never used. The cracks are very thin and do not impair the stone's honing. Then,we have 1 each large stone of fine,and a coarser stone(but still a very fine stone). These single grit large stones are even rarer than the double stones. As I mentioned,the old guy who made these in the 70's told me the large stones were made for use in razor factories. And,how many straight razor factories were there in the 70's? They were long gone from any main line use many decades before that.

[Joey Naeger]

I appreciate all the input folks. I'm going to experiment a little on my stones some more and see if using them dryer helps. Stu, I happen to love the stones for planes and chisels...fantastic edge and they stay nice and flat. I use a lot of small double bevel curved knives and they are a serious pain to grind. It's really for those knives that I'd like something that gives a little better feedback.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hmm...

I'd be looking elsewhere (as in not 'waterstones') for hard, fine stones. I'd probably just use the 6K in this case, and 'something else' for the final edge, perhaps a charged strop. Most of the suggestions for 'hard and fine' tend to get rather expensive rather quickly.

I think I could probably conjure up a small, cheap(ish) natural polishing stone if you think it would be useful though.

Good to hear the stones are working for the usual stuff.

Stu.

[Joey Naeger]

I tried some different things today. Running the stones dryer and with a little detergent made them a little more manageable. They seem to not really need much. I also learned that using more pressure than I had been makes for a huge improvement in the stone cutting. The scratch patterns became noticeably more consistent and the egde just a little keener. Without the feel of the frictionite still fresh in my hands, they felt okay. I maybe wouldn't mind to get a stone specifically for trickier tools, but I'm not going to go out of my way to find it now. I might keep an eye out for something secondhand.

[David Weaver]

Just buy an inexpensive hard black arkansas and experiment with what you'd like to put on it (diamond powder, etc, stuff that costs about $10 per experimentation).

Another stone that you could try is the chinese guangxi stone that woodcraft sells. It cuts reasonably well with a slurry, but is nice and hard.

The spyderco also makes a good base for trying slurries or diamonds, etc, because nothing embeds in it and you can wipe it off easily and start fresh.

[Joey Naeger]

In case anyone is interested, I picked up a used translucent for cheap. I just flattened it on a glass plate with some silicone carbide. Went pretty quickly. I like the feel of the stone and will probably be using it a lot for my knives. It seems to leave a decent edge, but it does cut slowly. I will try adding some abrasive soon, but I think this stone will work nicely for me.

[David Weaver]

Add a hard arkansas for something a little faster if you want to speed up the time without sacrificing the fantastic edge a translucent will make for someone who has the patience to create it.

I don't so much like what powders do to the quality of the edge that the stones make, but they definitely wake them up.

[Joey Naeger]

Actually, the stone I bought is a DIY combination stone. The guy had a courser arkansas glued to the back of the translucent. One possibility I thought of was using a courser diamond compound on the course stone and leaving the fine stone as is. I find the polish to be less fine than from my 13k stone, but the edge feels pretty similiar. I'm hoping as the stone breaks in more, the polish will get finer.

[george wilson]

About using a ceramic stone with diamonds: I bought an Accusharp(?) grinder for the shop while still toolmaker. It primarily used diamond wheels,but they also sold a 6" diameter,1/2" thick fine white ceramic stone to use with diamond slurries. So,using a ceramic stone with diamonds seems to be an industrially accepted practice. Unfortunately,the ceramic disc costs oner $250.00,so I haven't bought one for my similar grinder at home. I did find a source of nicely made metal diamond plated discs from Hong Kong for about $10.00 each. They are made of nice,flat,accurate steel discs 1/16" thick. I can easily turn out some metal to mount them to to make them the needed 1/2" thick to fit my grinder. Beats the heck out of nearly $200.00 for other diamond discs,and they really look just as good as far as the diamond coating.

[David Weaver]

Actually, the stone I bought is a DIY combination stone. The guy had a courser arkansas glued to the back of the translucent. One possibility I thought of was using a courser diamond compound on the course stone and leaving the fine stone as is. I find the polish to be less fine than from my 13k stone, but the edge feels pretty similiar. I'm hoping as the stone breaks in more, the polish will get finer.

The polish will get finer. It's possible for me to get a better edge, actually, with a hard black arkansas on a straight razor than it is for me to get with any of my synthetics, with the possible exception of the spyderco after the spyderco has stopped cutting. But the lightness of touch that you do with a straight razor is something nobody would do with a tool.

[Joey Naeger]

Sounds interesting George. I think slurries behave a lot differently than fixed grit. It's interesting that my diamond stone wouldn't touch the arkansas stones, but using loose silicone carbide made really quick work of it. The abrasives broke down quickly, but still cut extremely fast. I messed around a little bit with lapping the arkansas stones with my waterstones to build up a slurry. Using the 1k slurry did help with cutting speed. Lot's of interesting possibilities.

David, I'd love it if the translucent works out for my razor. I got it honed up today, but haven't done a test shave. I've really enjoyed played around with these stones. Very different vibe from my waterstones.