My Firestar and me

[Robin Lankes]

Hello All,

My first post on this forum and it's about yet another tube issue, well at least I can introduce myself at the same time.

I got my Laserpro Spirit 40W in June last year (in Johannesbug, South Africa that is) and the Spirit itself has been running without fault. It's just the darn Synrad Firestar V40 that has waited till the end of the warranty period to start playing up, around 4 weeks ago that is.

I was cutting 300g paper in the evening and all seemed fine, the next morning I wanted to cut 3mm MDF and found that the laser didn't cut all the way through. The kerf seemed a little wider than usual so first thing I checked was all the optics. After some head scratching I opened the back of the machine and cleaned the mirror where the beam exits the tube, but there was nothing but a barely perceptible layer of dust on there.

The symptoms are that I have to reduce cutting speed by about 50% and the kerf seems wider than usual (as if the beam is out of focus by +- 1.5mm). I have moved the laser up and down 2mm and that defocuses the beam as expected. The edges after cutting also look different, as if the hourglass shape of the beam is exaggerated. When cutting a series of equal circles the place where the laser doesn't cut through is in a similar location on each circle.

So after some more head scratching I called the local agent.

The technician arrived a week later and replaced the bearings on the head (which were starting to show signs of wear). However when I asked if he found the cause of the loss in cutting ability he replied "It's doing something weird". Apparently the diagnostic lights on the tube checked out ok, and some poking around on the main board and other components with a volt meter didn't reveal any fault either. He left saying he needs to consult with the laser gods overseas.

Another week goes by and this time two technicians arrive. They undo the tube, open the top lid and say 'here's the problem'. In my head Beethoven's 9th starts playing. The technician flips a little switch, some more fumbling and then they test the power of the beam again. I hear "no it's still down on power". The music in my head stops abruptly, no applause. I ask about the switch and apparently it sets the tube to either 3Hz or 5Hz, they think it should be on 5Hz (mine was on 3Hz), but it ended up making no difference in any case. They close the lid of the tube, realign the mirrors and leave saying more consulting with the laser gods overseas needs to be done.

Two days later I'm starting to lose patience and call them up only to be told that there is a problem with the tube and that it's out of warranty. They suggest I can either carry on using the machine as is with less power and the tube might last another 5 years or they will send the tube to France for repair, but they can give no indication whatsoever on the cost involved.

I would think that using a faulty tube is risky since it could cause the darn thing to fail completely. Also running at half speed with reduced quality is just plain bad business. After reading up on some of the other tube related posts on this forum I'm hoping that an unstable electronic component could be the culprit.

What is interesting is that for a couple of weeks prior to the tube playing up I started to hear an occasional knocking sound when using the laser. At first I though it was the extractor fan or even the pc next to the laser as the noise would never happen while I was listening out for it. More recently I traced it to the back of the Spirit and I can occasionally even hear one or two knocks a minute after switching the laser off. Last night I opened the back of the machine and set up camp behind there to trace the mysterious noise. After about 10 minutes of waiting I heard what sounded like a cracking whip coming out the laser tube. That could mean something is expanding and contracting under heat in there and I'm pretty sure it's not normal. The led's on the back of the tube are Green Green Yellow Blue and Red (when firing), so according to the tech docs on Synrad's website there is no fault being reported. The agent never really took my report of this mystery noise very serious and one of the technicians told me it's the power supply of the Spirit, giving some weird explanation as to why it's making noises.

So now I need some advice on what to do...

Since starting to write this I received a quote from the local agent on the cost of shipping the tube from SA to France and back - $1500.00 ouch! ...and on top of that will be the cost of the repair work which is anybody's guess. Well knowing how generously distributors in South Africa calculate their own markups I'll end up paying more for the repair than what a whole new tube would cost.

So instead of handing the tube over to the agent I could get my hands dirty with a soldering iron and attempt the repair myself. I've done my share of building electronic gadgets in the past, so I'm not clueless, but also rather far from being an expert. I would also need quite a bit of technical info so I would know what to look for and how to trace the fault - is it possible to acquire that information?

The other option would be to handle the shipping of the tube myself, preferably to a place recommended by someone on the forum. I don't have much hope of finding anyone in South Africa who can repair a laser tube, so I suppose that means shipping it off to either the USA or Europe. At least in this case I would only be paying the shipping cost and the actual repair work, no crazy markups involved.

I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't just visit family in Germany for 3 weeks and take the tube along in my luggage (I'm so due for a holiday!). If there is a place that can do the repair near Frankfurt or Stuttgart I can drop it off there in person and collect when it's done. I think the Firestar V40 weighs in the order of 10kg so I just have to curb my acquisition of goodies over there and eat all the chocolates instead of taking them back to SA ;)

Any advise?

Btw, I can't find where to add a signature to my profile.

[Mike Null]

Robin

First, welcome to Sawmill Creek. Second, by virtue of your location you may have lucked into some good fortune. One of our moderators, Rodney Gold, is in Capetown and is quite expert on your type of machine. I suggest you contact him and seek his advice.
http://www.tokerbros.co.za/index.php/contact-us

The Synrad tube is made in the U. S. and you can contact them here. http://www.synrad.com/vseries/v40.htm I wouldn't be surprised if they make a concession to you based on the brief time it is out of warranty.

[Robin Lankes]

Thanks for the info Mike! I'll give Rodney a shout and will try my luck with Synrad as well.

Funny, takes a limping Spirit to make me realise how much fun I've had lasering stuff in the last year and how much I enjoyed getting the business side running.

[Dan Hintz]

Just a quick note... his handle on here is Rodne (without the 'y')

[matthew knott]

I wouldn't be surprised is Synrad wont touch it, they normally have a deal in place with the OEM buyer and check serial numbers but that might not be the case (it is with coherent/epilog) The V40's have a built in RF power supply, I would strongly advise against a DIY repair, unless you know what you doing you could make worse and they are not cheap to replace. Also its normally a fixed price repair on these, a service exchange is common, (they send you a repaired one, you send yours back) but i would be pretty annoyed if it had only lasted to the end of the warranty, hopefully they will be able to do you a deal.

[Richard Rumancik]

If you decide to try repairing it in Germany the Synrad subsidary is Excel Technology GmbH and is located in Planegg. (This is from the Synrad V-series Operator Manual.) You would have to contact them to find out if they have repair capabilities.

[Rodne Gold]

It's probably a RF board thats blown if power suddenly dropped to 1/2 . I did get repair instruction from Synrad some time ago when my J series went down. Try Contact them directly. There is an issue with GCC "owning" the tube when you contact Synrad, you need to tell em you in SA and can't send tube back to Taiwan etc etc..they will help you....
Wilford steel in Durban used to repair Synrad and Coherent tubes , but regassing and major problems they used to send to Germany. Not sure if they do it still...I dont have their contact no. At any rate , when they sen't my tube to Germany to repair , a 25w J48 . it cost me R35 000 (R8 =$1) and it lasted all of another 6 months......
After having many tubes on my lasers blow and costing me big bucks...I thought scr-w this and bought chinese machines at the price my tube repair costs. If any more of my machines go down due to tube failure ..I wont repair em, just use em as a spares machine for the ones that are still working and will just replace them with cheap chinese machines that do the same job or better...
The worst of it all is that I have better reliability with the cheap chinese stuff than with the GCC's..I have owned 2 mercurys and currently have 2 explorers (1 has died) and 3 spirits..I have had MANY tube and motherboard failures (thats' just the big stuff) ..motherboards are like R10k ($1250) I recon I have had at least 8-10 motherboard failures over the 8 lasers and have had more than that with with tubes. Never got anywhere CLOSE to the 10-20 000 hours the RF tubes are supposed to last....
I would start kicking up a stink with the ppl you bought the machine from , I assume it's Gencotech, re the tube going just after a year..that's not acceptable..that tube should last way more than that..............
You more than welcome to call me , I'm at work till 2 pm most days , if I'm not there , cel no is 082 9550808.

[Robin Lankes]

Thanks Rodney for all the info :)

That's kinda shocking what I hear about GCC reliability! The machines seem fairly well engineered and I like the fact that the laser head is small, light and simple. Last year, when I got it into my head that life without a laser is meaningless, I did weeks of research and the places selling Chinese machines weren't significantly cheaper than the GCC stuff and some of those machines looked rather clunky, even scary in some cases. Seems that importing yourself and knowing what and where to get is the secret. I'm going to read through some your threads on that topic. Rather awesome that you're willing to share the knowledge that must have cost you the GDP of a small nation to acquire.

The Wilford Steel place seems to have vanished? There is a Wilford Steel Lasers in Johannesburg, but my experience with SA business directories tells me to expect an old Tannie on the line telling me that the company I'm looking for went out of business 6 years ago.

Will be interesting to find out if the RF unit is a module that can be removed and replaced, even if you're not trained in tube repair. Of course you'll have to accept the possible consequences if you mess things up. I'm starting to wonder if RF tubes make sense in places like SA at all, half a globe away from the facilities that understand and support the technology. Overseas the tubes aren't cheap either, but the support structure is there. Here in SA we pay an absolute fortune for tubes and when something goes wrong it comes out that the people that bagged the profit haven't got much of a clue how that little box they sold you actually works. There should be a law that if you benefit from selling complex technology in far away places you need to have the facilities and know-how to carry out minor repairs - like in my case where it's possibly an electronic fault with the RF unit and not a re-gas.

Rodney, I'm going to give you a call tomorrow if you don't mind.

[Robin Lankes]

If I do go that route then Munich would suit me just fine, I've got some family there as well... and of course they make some of the best Weissbier over there so I will have something to keep me busy while I wait for my laser tube to be brought back to life :cool:

[Richard Rumancik]

I don't think you can blame a tube failure on GCC engineering or manufacturing, since they OEM the tubes from Synrad. Synrad's warranty is only one year for tubes which seems too short given the lifetime that they tend to imply in the sales literature. I assume you aren't quite willing to throw the whole machine away because of the tube failure. I think the lifetime of tubes can be quite random and is not predictable - Synrad has had some tubes last a very long time so they will toss numbers around as to longevity but these numbers are more anecdotal than anything. Several years ago I was told that GCC was dropping Synrad as the Coherent/Deos tubes were better but I don't think that necessarily proved to be the case, and they still use Synrad tubes.

Unless you have a lot of experience with a conventional laser system I would not suggest you jump into a Chinese unit. The people who have the most success with these have had lasers for a long time and are willing to do a lot of fiddling and experimenting to see how the machine actually works (as the manuals are poor.) One issue I have is the glass tubes - people say the tubes are really cheap; but then the tubes come broken or their "spare" tube fails to fire when called upon. It seems that there isn't a very reliable way to ship the tubes. If the Chinese came up with a metal laser tube (Synrad clone) then maybe they would have something. At the moment the glass tubes are the weak link in the chain.

In the meantime I would probably lean towards getting the GCC running again. Maybe GCC and/or Synrad can help out a bit as it is not an old tube.

[Rodne Gold]

As Richard says , the tubes are not made by GCC.
Richard , I think they told coherent DEOS to take a hike when QC with the tubes was at an all time low and now are with Synrad - a LOT of my failures were with coherent tubes in my explorers and I would never buy a laser with coherents/Deos again..

GCC in South Africa were initally supported by Maizeys and Engraving supplies which had some tie up , support was great ...the guy that owned Engraving supplies died and then Maizeys took over the whole kaboodle and after finding it a pain , they then sold onto Gencotech... Gencotech are having to deal with "legacy" issues and machines they didnt put into the market....

We don't live in the US where good service is the norm , bad service and ineptitude is actually what we expect!!!!
Tons of Chinese lasers are self imported here in SA and they run well and do the job. A lot of folk buy on affordability due to exhorbitant sales prices of mainstream machines, what goes for $X in the US will be sold for sometimes $2X over here. Support via US/Europe or support via China is 6 of 1 and 1/2 a dozen of another here in SA - we a long way from either place. If you more or less on your own after warrantee service , you might as well buy chinese.
Here in South Africa we are used to a "boer maak n plan" (a farmer makes a plan) scenario , where DIY repairs and inventive solutions are more the rule than the exception. The Chinese machines are a LOT easier and cheaper to repair than most mainstreams.
Obviously GCC see some of the issues that users have with RF tubes and are offering their well made machines with glass tubes , that's a great compromise , excellent construction , proper drivers , servo motors and all the good GCC stuff with MORE potent and cheaper to replace tubes.. they are still priced at almost double what a chinese machine costs but a heck of a lot cheaper than the equivalent or lower powered RF machines.
I am on record and am of the opinion that consumers are being right royally ripped off re RF metal laser sources..

[Robin Lankes]

Richard - blaming GCC for the tube failure would be unfair, as would blaming anyone else for that matter. I guess it's bad luck that mine started playing up just out of warranty. I quite like the way the Spirit is engineered and I keep it clean and well lube'd, so after a year and a bit of sometimes rather heavy use it still looks like a brand new machine. If money were no objective I would love to have a large bed Trotec - pure engineering beauty, but here in South Africa they cost astronomical money making ROI calculations mostly a comedy show.

What I'm not too happy about is that it took the local dealer I bought the machine from two weeks to identify a tube problem and since it's out of warranty I'm pretty much on my own with the problem. It's like buying a fairly expensive car with a one year warranty and just as the warranty is up you find out that one of the spark plugs in the engine has failed. All your dealer can do for you is remove the engine and send it overseas to have a new spark plug fitted, at the cost of a whole new engine. Something is wrong with that business model.

I agree with Rodney that we are being ripped off by our own dealers in SA. They take advantage of the fact that many people here aren't well informed about the realistic value of a product or service and that the little competition there is operates with the same inflated margins. So unless you help yourself you are pretty much out of options.

[Robin Lankes]

Well oscilloscope and external power source are organised, now I just need repair instructions from Synrad.

My extractor fan started tripping the power so that is getting an overhaul too, recoiling plus new bearings.

[Glen Monaghan]

If you have a typical oscilloscope, the probe's negative clip is referenced to ground and you can easily short things out in typical laser circuits by probing with the scope if you don't really understand the circuit and what you are doing... That's because the circuitry often isn't referenced the same way, so clipping the probe's ground into the circuit creates a nasty conflict that can fry stuff almost instantly. One or two people here have mentioned experiencing this first hand with their lasers.

-Glen

[Robin Lankes]

Thanks Glen, every bit of info helps. I'm going to take my time with this and be as careful as I can. If I do fry the board, then so be it, at least I tried. Still hoping that the failed component(s) will show physical signs of overheating once I open up the tube.