How much would you charge for a table like this?

[keith micinski]

I built this table for a friend of mine and was wondering what to charge for it? I have been running into this more and more recently since I started building more items for other people and less just for myself. I know a lot of people charge a shop rate but the problem I have with this is due to a lot of factors my productivity in the shop can vary greatly and it doesn't seem fair or accurate to bill for an item this way. I also run into problems building things for my friends because I don't want them to think I am taking advantage of them. This table was by far and a way the most involved I have ever gotten. I designed the table in skethchup for the client. I even went to the saw mill and picked the logs out then helped mill them. I ended up having about 600 in materials so I just doubled that and came up with 1200 for the table. Does that seem reasonable? I am trying to get a feel for what to charge people for items where I can make money but still be fair. I have always done this as a hobby and love building things for free let alone actually getting paid for it. I think that is why I am having a hard time trying to figure out what to charge for items.

[Ben Martin]

Sorry, no help, but is that a M3, GTI and a SRT-10?

[keith micinski]

I forgot to add that the table is 5 feet long and 3 feet wide.

[keith micinski]

HA, you got them all. And I am mildly impressed that you got the GTI and the SRT 10 since there isn't much showing of either.

[Todd Burch]

$1200 is too cheap for that table. How many hours did it take you? How many hours at the sawmill? How long hand picking the boards? How long finishing it? Finishing materials cost?

I suspect you made about $10/hour.

Don't tell me you delivered it too. ;)

Edit: that's a $2500 table.

[keith micinski]

I am delivering it tomorrow! I really don't keep track of my time because I am lazy with paperwork and stuff like that. Plus I always say I am going to keep track of time but then end up forgetting stuff and then I just give up. I keep telling myself pay more attention to time maybe one of these days I will.

[Steve Kohn]

I used to have a friend that strayed from hobbiest to paid work. He used to charge between 2X and 3X of the material costs depending on the complexity of the piece. However, those rates did not include the selection of the logs and helping to mill them. Some questions to consider when you do pricing.......
Did the $600 of materials the and the electricity get fronted by you also? If this is the case the "client" has no skin in the game and could walk away. Even if they don't you're still out the initial outlay.
Did you give an estimate of cost and time before you started, and was the "client" OK with that estimate.
Lastly, is the "client" a good friend or a relative? This can also make a difference in what you charge.

Answering these questions are exactly why I don't sell any of my work. I give it away or keep it for my own use.

[Brian Kent]

That is a fine table and great wood.

[Mike Henderson]

If the client is a friend, and based on what you said, I'd go $1,500 because people like "round" numbers ($1,500 is more "round" than $1,200).

If it was for a commercial client (someone you don't know, I'd go $2,000 to $2,500).

Mike

[keith micinski]

600 should cover all of the materials and consumables used in the table and might even be a little bit high again not very good with the fine details so I like to estimate a little bit extra in. As far as giving a quote it was more of "this is what I want" and I said 'I can make that." I almost always build the item and then let the person decide on if they want it or not. Everything I build I love and feel like if the customer isn't happy then I will be more then happy to keep it. As a matter of fact I feel that this is the best piece that I have ever made and to be honest with you even though I have no where to put it I really, really want to keep it. I sometimes wonder if the piece your losing is the best thing you will ever do and you will never have one like it again no matter how hard you try.

[Bob Reda]

The problem with doing something for friends or family is that if you give them a break, they will want it on the next thing. Then they tell their friends how much and they expect it for what they want you to make.

Bob

[keith micinski]

Agreed, I look at it now as just advertising and the ability to work on new things. I have never had the opportunity to make breadboard ends on a table before. This was a good learning experience. I guess if I was trying to make money to support myself with this instead of it just being a hobby I would have to tighten things up a bit. Another thing I like about doing things this way is usually I have a lot of freedom in design and types of wood I get to use which is a big thing for me. I found out the hard way that building something I don't like is miserable an not worth doing.

[J.R. Rutter]

I calculate price using time estimate and materials (total purchased, not actual). My shop rate has profit built in, but I also try to add a bit more because anything custom takes a bit longer than anticipated. If I had to price your table based solely on materials, it would be 3 to 4 x $600 = $1,800 - $2400.

Looking at the details in the photos, I would use the high end of that range. One thought is to write an invoice for $2,650, then have a line item for friends and family discount of 10%. Use whatever number you feel comfortable with, but I think that everyone feels better when the bill is presented this way. Plus, when the customer talks about it to other people, they can prepare them for a higher price than what they paid. Stuff like this prescreens potential clients.

[Jeff Duncan]

Well first off I don't think you can really "take advantage of them" since they are under no obligation to buy it. Pricing it is difficult as your doing it as hobby work and don't seem concerned with things like overhead, hourly rate, or profit. As such you can charge as little or as much as you want. My feeling is even though you may not "need" to make money on it, you still "should" make money on it. Otherwise your friends are taking advantage of you whether they know it or not! So charge enough that your putting money into your pocket which will allow you to invest in more tools, blades, bits, wood etc. etc..

As for your price, I agree with the general consensus that if we're just going by broad and general "what's it worth" type of guessing, that you could probably double your price and be at a pretty reasonable number.;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Carl Beckett]

My $.02, I might consider:

Just how much of paid work I really want to do. When people ask me to build something and offer to pay, I tell them that 1) you couldnt afford my actual (non-woodworking) rate and 2) others are much more skilled, and faster than I am - so why would you pay some outlandish rate for less skill and lower productivity than you could get elsewhere.

Now at the same time, I do build things for people and just 'give' it to them. Or sometimes they cover material (which is usually some pittance because I dont buy materials retail).

Then some friends/clients are wealthy. And it doesnt matter how much you charge them. In this case just take whatever it is they want to give you. If they are poor.. .I 'sell' it at below cost (because its about gifting something nice to a friend, not about me making money)

Now... if you are wanting a technical business analysis its an entirely different discussion and we can talk markups, market pricing, overheads, hourly rates, etc etc. But from what you wrote this sounds like a hobby to you.

Its a beautiful table!

[Herr Dalbergia]

nice wood, nice work, nice table, well done, 1200 is too less but if it is a friend..it becomes difficult...who cares about stupid wood and table.....



BUT TELL ME EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS M3!!!!!!!!!!!!!! F...K these are rare, looks in good condition...geile Karre, alter!!!!! Grüße aus Bayern, wo er gebaut wurde ;)

[keith micinski]

Thanks for everyone's input. I kind of felt it was worth 2-2500 but to be honest with you I probably never would have been able to make it because she wouldn't have wanted to pay that much no matter what it is was worth. I definitely would love to make good money at woodworking but more then anything I want to be able to create great things. So I have to try and find a balance I guess. I bought That m3 13 years ago when I was 21. I bought it sight unseen from a woman in New Mexico. Car buying on the Internet was really unheard of at this point and looking back on it it was one of the craziest things I have ever done. I took every penny I had and jumped on a train to go by a rare German race car that was supposed to be in great shape but if it wasn't I was going to be absolutely screwed. It turned out to be great and I love it. Unfortunately as the years have gone on I rarely drive it. I just put it in storage today and noticed I only drove it 250 miles this year.

[James Baker SD]

I bought That m3 13 years ago when I was 21....Unfortunately as the years have gone on I rarely drive it. I just put it in storage today and noticed I only drove it 250 miles this year.

I don't want to divert the thread, but in 1996 I bought an RX-7 when I heard they were being discontinued. Two weeks later I met my future wife; unfortunately she gets car sick very easy. That lovely RX is now 17 years old and has 6000 miles on it. Just cannot part with it, but hate to drive it alone.

[Stephen Cherry]

e30 M3's are about the coolest of the cool.

[keith micinski]

She is really just being a good wife and trying to make your rx-7 more valuable. :)

[Danny Hamsley]

It is a beautiful table! You could just tell them to pay you what they think the table is worth, then take that and chalk up any difference as a gift from you.

[Mike Manders]

The problem with doing projects like this for friends is that someone is always going to be unhappy. Why do you think he/she asked you to do it instead of going to Pottery Barn and buying a similar one? Because they're expecting you to be cheaper. If you tell her she owes you $1500 but the Pottery Barn price is $1000 not only will she not buy it (leaving you stuck with the materials/overhead cost) you're going to lose a friend because she thinks you tried to rip her off.

More likely, you'll have to sell it for the $600 in materials to keep the friendship and chalk it up to a learning experience. Next time, if you plan to charge for your time, you need to give a quote well ahead of time.

[Rick Potter]

Like Mike said.

Let us know how it turns out. It could be helpful to others.

Rick Potter

[Ben Hatcher]

I agree that is a very nice looking table.

If you're doing a project to be paid for your time, I think it is vital to have an estimate up front. Even looking at an example in a catalog is a better starting point to talk about price than doing nothing.

As for an hourly rate, I am not a pro and I wouldn't expect to be paid pro wages for non-pro efficiency. For example, I've never used sketch-up. If a pro could design this table using it in 2 hours, there's no way I'd feel justified in charging for the 10 or whatever it might take me. I probably wouldn't charge for that at all unless they required a sketch-up model to approve the design or I could count on labor savings on the construction end as a result of the dimentioned parts list I created and in that case it would be a flat rate. Like many here, I like doing woodworking as a hobby. Tracking hours makes it a job. I don't want another job. Having someone else pay for the materials, challenge me to learn new things,give my work a nice home, and take me out to a nice place for dinner is often good enough for me. But then, I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where I can afford to do that. My shop time isn't taking away from family time or other paying work.

[Larry Fox]

Can't help you with what to charge your friend for the table - which is pretty amazing btw - but I can advise you to get better at keeping track of expenses going forward. I recently did a project with a friend of mine which was to build a corner cabinet. We started it under the well-intentioned pretense of my showing him some of the fundamental ww-ing skills and acquainting him with shop tools etc. He participated in a few build sessions but due to both our schedules not lining up I ended up doing most of it (another lesson for another thread). Anyway, I fronted most of the incidental material costs to be reconciled at the end. I kept good records and wrote down whatever I used. My wife asked me at the end how much $$ I had in it to be billed. I estimated $500ish to her. When I added things up I was shocked to see that it was actually $1,200. Had I just told my friend, eh - just give me about $500 I would have ended up paying $700 in cash + an astonishing amount of hours to build a cabinet for someone else's house.

[keith micinski]

I appreciate everyone's input. I was actually ok doubling my materials and costs on that table to come up With the price. I make that style table a lot minus the bread board ends so I have gotten pretty efficient at it. All things considered I even probably made reasonable money on it for the time I spent making it. I couldn't have had more then 20 25 hours into it. I honestly felt it was worth more and just wanted to see if I was crazy or not. I am not sure if I will ever be able to get my woodworking to a point where I can charge what a piece is actually worth. I just don't know to many people that would spend 2-2500 on a table even if it was worth 5,000. I guess the key for me in doing these projects is to at least make enough that I can do it and at the end at least feel like I made a little money. I really did start woodworking as a hobby and I know this sounds weird but I actually feel like it is a bonus that I am getting someone else to by the wood and pay me even a little bit for time. Again thanks for everyone's input and I hope to have pricing issues in the future because that means I still have people paying me to do something I love:)

[Keith Christopher]

Most hobbyist wood workers don't like talking price up front. I always do, it sets expectations. Most think you can build it cheaper than they could buy an item. and I am talking in the most generic sense. A common thing I find is they believe that a dresser (regardless of wood and time) costs X. Once they see what custom built furniture costs most are afraid. I would be willing to bet your friend will feel 'taken' if you didn't discuss price up front.

Your biggest expense should always be your time, it is the most valuable thing you have in ANY aspect of your life.

Without pricing your work before hand and being this is a friend you are in quite a emotional pickle so to speak.

Honest pricing would put it closer to 2K but without up front expectations, I would personally go for the 1200$ price range, lick your wounds from lack of pre-planning and learn from it. Here is a good guide to get you started.

http://www.amazon.com/Woodworkers-Pricing-Popular-Woodworking-Paperback/dp/B008548CSA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1352011837&sr=8-6&keywords=woodworking+pricing+your+work

All this being said, if someone I have a personal stake with I usually price it 2x materials flat. But for everyone else, I price out for my time and an average cost of electricity, tool wear, glue, sand paper.... You get the idea. All these cost you money and you need to recoup these 'losses' or else your losing money.

[Zach Callum]

Just wondering if any of you are actually making a living building furniture? Not, furniture and cabinetry, but furniture only.

[Alan Wright]

The reality is that most people have no idea what kind of work goes into something like this. I'm a hobbyist who makes some "nice" pieces. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me to make them something. They'll come over to the house and see a piece and say "wow! I'd like to have one, can you build one for me". After I tell them I have $600 in lumber and 60 hours of labor, they say "oh, I was thinking you could make it of $500 or so.." just because you can buy a piece of laminate and luanne at the local discount furniture store, doesn't mean that your custom, quality work should be priced that same way.

[doug faist]

My rule of thumb, especially for larger pieces like this, is 3-4 x material cost. I've found it comes pretty close to spending a couple hours on wood, electricity, finishes, incidental costs, etc., etc., etc.

If it's for a good friend or family member and it's something I would enjoy making, I charge materials only. For example, this was for my sister-in-law. Quartersawn white oak and cost her $329.00.

244857

But it sure was a fun build.
Doug