Contractors

[Rich Riddle]

I read many forums to get ideas on how to perform tasks but am a bit put off by one large contractor forum. These contractors talk back and forth to each other about how to perform tasks they've never performed and then ask how much to charge for doing it. Quite often they are advised to quote in the hundreds of dollars an hour for labor for jobs they've never done. Perhaps it's just me, but I consider it unethical for someone unskilled in an area not to tell potential customers this. This doesn't even consider the outrageous prices they are quoting for their learning curves.

[Larry Edgerton]

Ya, contractors are all thugs and thieves.

Larry

[John Pratt]

Ya, contractors are all thugs and thieves.

Larry

I know that was sarcasm considering this has been discussed before, but I don't think it was the OPs intent to call all of them dishonest.

There are a tremendous number of great contractors out there, but it is incumbent on the consumer to do their research and ask a lot of questions of the contractor and check references. In this digital age it is truely amazing how much information is out there to make an informed decision.

[Stew Hagerty]

Hi, Former GC here. No offence taken Larry (well not much anyway). Rich, I believe what you are talking about is called "Best Practices". You used to hear it at coffee shops and diners where the contractors all hung out every morning. Now, thanks to technology, you see it on the web. It's the nature of the business that techniques, ideas, suggestions, and pricing are discussed and shared. Just as we, as woodworkers, share them on here. The contractors take the "Best Practices" from those discussions out into the field where they put them to use building everything from sheds & porches to garages, warehouses, office building, and skyscrapers. Sharing information and performing new tasks is how they grow as contractors.

[David Weaver]

I read many forums to get ideas on how to perform tasks but am a bit put off by one large contractor forum. These contractors talk back and forth to each other about how to perform tasks they've never performed and then ask how much to charge for doing it. Quite often they are advised to quote in the hundreds of dollars an hour for labor for jobs they've never done. Perhaps it's just me, but I consider it unethical for someone unskilled in an area not to tell potential customers this. This doesn't even consider the outrageous prices they are quoting for their learning curves.


One of my favorite quotes I've seen on another forum is "you can't get it if you don't ask for it", in regard to someone who asks a price others consider too high.

Some old school contractors will bill their rate, and if someone pays it, they'll work, if someone doesn't they won't. If someone would've paid 4x as much, the contractor still bills their rate.

That's, of course, never been universal. But I think it's less common now. The thing you have working for you if you don't like the contractors practice...well two things:
1) be patient enough to live with something not being as perfect as you like, until someone will do work for a price you can accept
2) be a stickler on price, you will probably end up with a contractor who is willing to work on people who shop a job on price

Of course, you might not be able to get the mcmansion neighborhood quality job if you stick hard on price, but I think to the extent that people can live with good enough rather than perfect, their lives will be a lot easier. At least that's what I try to tell my wife regarding things I'm not enthusiastic about.

If we all lived by that, though, a lot of us wouldn't have the urge to redo an otherwise functional 25 year-old kitchen (my kitchen is a little older than that, but in great condition and I'm feeling the pressure from the wife as well). I'm blown away by the number of folks who don't have guaranteed employment to retirement, but who will spend gobs of money (like $35-$60k to have their kitchens redone every couple of decades...especially when they're redoing kitchens on houses that are in neighborhoods that don't have great peak value).

At any rate, a contractor needs to ask high if that's what it takes for them to stay in business, even if they can't get it on all jobs or have to make concessions. "you can't get it if you don't ask for it".

[Andrew Joiner]

These contractors talk back and forth to each other about how to perform tasks they've never performed and then ask how much to charge for doing it.

Perhaps it's just me, but I consider it unethical for someone unskilled in an area not to tell potential customers this.

Another way to look at this is if a contractor doesn't do the job right he doesn't get paid experienced or not. Both parties take on a risk,but I would argue the contractor takes on more risk.
I would get this all the time when I worked as a custom builder. Mr. Joiner "have you ever built an xyz conference table?" If I would have been totally honest I'd have had to say no. Then it's "ok we want someone experienced, bye". What I would say is "sure and even more complicated tables than xyz". This response got me my first conference table job. The truth was I'd built many unique tables ,but no conference tables at that time in my career. After I got that job I built lots more conference tables and office furniture.
Overall I felt very ethical and honest dealing with clients with my policy of truth. I was confident that even though I hadn't done a job like they wanted, I knew I could do it. After all if I didn't build what they wanted I didn't get paid.
Bottom line all contracting is unique and no job is exactly alike. Could any contractor honestly say yes when asked "have you ever done this"? Even identical houses from the same plan would be built on a unique lot with it's own conditions.

[Rich Riddle]

Andrew,

The truth exist, not a person's version of the truth. I have taught ethics and logic. What you propose is called ethical relativism and an ad nauseum argument that's been disproved centuries ago. However, your position isn't remotely close to what I was addressing. You have custom building skills, and I am discussing someone who would say bid a custom furniture piece and then go out and try to build one out of old rough-in scrap he had on hand when he had absolutely no experience building furniture.

I am not discussing contractors who've done anything remotely close to what they are bidding but ones that say things such as, "I don't know how to do electrical work and want to know how to bid it and perform it." In most licensed professions performing this type of service would cost you your license. When people come to me with problems outside my scope of education or expertise, I refer to those who have it. It's unfortunate contractors don't have the same ethics.

[Rich Riddle]

Rich, I believe what you are talking about is called "Best Practices". Stew, I know "best practices" well in two fields. It would be interesting to review the "best practices" manual in the field of contracting to read where it indicates the practices stated fall within a best practice. Best Practice manuals do exist.

https://www.construction-institute.org/scriptcontent/bp.cfm?section=aboutcii

As you could see from the brief introduction, the topics I am discussing would break the "best practice" procedures in several areas.

And the contractors I read about seem to be one or two man shows where they plan on performing the work themselves. One member advocated a one-man-show to charge $145 an hour for electrical work when the contractor had no basic understanding of electricity. One contractor thought the white wire was usually hot in alternating current. This man went on to wire an addition. Glad it wasn't mine.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I find the best way to find out about a contractor is to ask around. Good news travels fast but bad news travels faster. I'm amazed at some of the work people do. Really bad. Not all are like that. There are some really good ones out there. It's too bad you have to look for them. I care take a 10 million dollar house & you would think the work would be incredible where no expense was spared. Well I have to tell you it doesn't make a difference how much money you spend there are some out there that just shouldn't be doing that kind of work.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm leery of any GC that can start today.

[Stew Hagerty]

Andrew,

The truth exist, not a person's version of the truth. I have taught ethics and logic. What you propose is called ethical relativism and an ad nauseum argument that's been disproved centuries ago. However, your position isn't remotely close to what I was addressing. You have custom building skills, and I am discussing someone who would say bid a custom furniture piece and then go out and try to build one out of old rough-in scrap he had on hand when he had absolutely no experience building furniture.

I am not discussing contractors who've done anything remotely close to what they are bidding but ones that say things such as, "I don't know how to do electrical work and want to know how to bid it and perform it." In most licensed professions performing this type of service would cost you your license. When people come to me with problems outside my scope of education or expertise, I refer to those who have it. It's unfortunate contractors don't have the same ethics.

Truth exists... So does reality. And the reality is that contractors DO have ethics, and I DO take offense at anyone who says otherwise. Oh yes, there are unscrupulous people. There are in virtually any field. That does not justify your, obviously very sophisticated, viewpoint.

Best Practices outlines are created by getting together with others in the particular field and gathering information on things like methodology and then using statistical analysis and good old common sense to refine and define. I have written two Best Practices outlines. What these contractors are in effect doing, albiet in a less sophisticated manner than you are obviously used to, is collecting, refining, and defining all on their own.

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew,

, "I don't know how to do electrical work and want to know how to bid it and perform it."

Oh, well then I agree that sounds unethical and dangerous.