Entry level laser - being quoted very high.

[Kenny Schmidt]

We are looking at a 40 watt entry level laser and are being quoted very high from Epilog and Trotec and Universal too I believe.

The exact lasers we are looking at are the Trotec speedy 100 40 watt with air assist, Epilog 40 watt mini 18x12, and the Universal 3.50 40 watt.

The Epilog is being quoted at list price with the stand thrown in and that's the huge favor there...

Then the Trotec when I was initially quoted on the speedy 100 a similar price to the Epilog 40 list price but today was told that was the 30 watt quote even though I thought I was quoted on the Rayjet 30 watt and then the Speedy 100 40 watt since we were planning on 40 watts for quite some time. Now the 40 watt price and 50 watt quote price on the speedy just seemed insane. The whole cost of one of those tubes is 3-4k isn't it?

I'm not sure if putting the prices down is allowed or what not. Can someone PM me what reasonable prices should be? There should be show specials / SMC discounts going on but it sure doesn't seem like it at all.


Btw we are going to be engraving mostly, starting with phone cases and going from there, already use a 40 watt machine that isn't ours...

Thanks

[Martin Boekers]

Search the forum on laser pricing, in the last week or so they have been quite a few discussions on it.
Trotech gives a discount for SMC members but others have got a larger discount from attending a trade show.

If you are comparing Chinese lasers to Made in USA there is a VERY large diffeernce in pricing as well as service.
You really can't compare the foreign brands on pricing.

[Kenny Schmidt]

Search the forum on laser pricing, in the last week or so they have been quite a few discussions on it.
Trotech gives a discount for SMC members but others have got a larger discount from attending a trade show.

If you are comparing Chinese lasers to Made in USA there is a VERY large diffeernce in pricing as well as service.
You really can't compare the foreign brands on pricing.

I've already read through over 100 threads. Only could find 1 thread on one of these machines at least that was within the past couple years. I never mentioned anything about the Chinese lasers but have read enough that they seem to be 1/4-1/5 of the price and excel at cutting more so than engraving. Maybe I'm bad at searching but I haven't been able to find too much on pricing of these exact models within the past year.

What's throwing me off is that the price difference of speedy 100 30 watt and 40 watt is $4,500 from what I was quoted. I suppose it was just unfortunate that I thought I was originally quoted on the 40 watt but it was the 30 watt.

I'm aware of the SMC discount and asked about it as well. Epilog is at their list price which I have read from multiple threads would be a very bad price to pay. Not sure why we aren't offered a deal at all.

[Steve Clarkson]

Kenny, there's no rule that I'm aware of about posting laser prices, so I wold feel free to do it.......it might make it easier to understand what you're talking about.

[Joe Pelonio]

$4,500 seems an awful lot for 10 more watts, unless they were overstocked and giving a great discount on the 30 watt machines. Lasers equipment is not like TVs nor even cars, there will not be much in the way of discounts given. More often they will "throw-in" something like an air pump or exhaust fan rather than give a discount. When I was looking and wne to a show the discounts offered for buying there were 5% or less.

[Ronald Erickson]

Kenny,

I feel your pain; I just survived purchasing a laser. Here is the post I made discussing the pricing I received through Trotec just a few weeks back:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?192651-Trotec-Speedy-300-Pricing-Trade-Show-vs-Sawmill-Creek-Pricing.

In the thread, I posted my initial price quotes from Trotec (Speedy 300 @ 60w/80w and Speedy 100 @ 40w/60w) and Epilog (list pricing) in the thread. When you compare the list pricing on a Speedy 300 @ 80 watts to the pricing offered at the previous PA show, it was a 35% difference (aka, the actual sales price with options included was 65% of list pricing).

I asked about posting pricing information and was advised it is ok to do as long as the pricing is factual and was not confidential. During my negotiations with Trotec, my local vendor rep did come down from the initial pricing. Unfortunately I was asked not to publish the final negotiated price.

The best advice I can give: Attend a trade show if at all possible. The pricing should be at it's lowest during a trade show; the vendors are close to one another they should be willing to deal.

There is a trade show going on today and tomorrow (SGIA in Las Vegas). Vendors may be willing to work with you outside of going to the show, but there are no guarantees.

[Doug Novic]

Kenny,

Went through the same sticker shock and started serious searching. Settled on a Rabbit Laser. Made in China but serviced out of Ohio. Spent a realistic dollar amount and that was over a year ago. No problems and there are a lot of midnight hours on that machine. Getting ready to get a smaller one from Rabbit Laser USA to compliment the one I have now.

Good luck.

[Martin Boekers]

I've already read through over 100 threads. Only could find 1 thread on one of these machines at least that was within the past couple years. I never mentioned anything about the Chinese lasers but have read enough that they seem to be 1/4-1/5 of the price and excel at cutting more so than engraving. Maybe I'm bad at searching but I haven't been able to find too much on pricing of these exact models within the past year.

What's throwing me off is that the price difference of speedy 100 30 watt and 40 watt is $4,500 from what I was quoted. I suppose it was just unfortunate that I thought I was originally quoted on the 40 watt but it was the 30 watt.

I'm aware of the SMC discount and asked about it as well. Epilog is at their list price which I have read from multiple threads would be a very bad price to pay. Not sure why we aren't offered a deal at all.


Kenny, sorry I didn't mean to infer anything. If you follow SMC you'll notice that many newcomers to
the forum ask similar basic questions without reading previous postings or searching the forum. Many to
have questioned the higher cost of Epilog, Trotec etc as they haven't researched to find the advantages
and dissadvantages of a Chinese laser and only see pricing. Ronald posted a thread that was started a
week or so ago on pricing and trade shows. Trade show are a good way to purchase as you can see all
machines in action and negtiate on the spot. Remember you can negotiate other items besides price.
Software, rotary, shipping costs etc can be negotiated. One issue though is territory, you may have to purchase
from a particular distributor who many not give as much latitude in pricing as another.


Good luck with your future purchase and we look forward to more postings as you start up this venture!

[Scott Shepherd]

Maybe everyone can post the cheapest prices and then the local sales reps can all go out of business. These people are there to make a living and to help you. If you post all the details on the greatest deals ever, you'll be cutting their throats. I'm not sure about the people you know, but if the people I know aren't too keen to help you when you're taking money out of their pockets.

There is no "one size fits all" pricing on lasers. Act like it's a car, used or new, and go negotiate your best deal.

Keep posting it all publicly and you'll watch all your local help dry up.

You wouldn't like it if you sold lasers, so why treat the people that sell lasers like that? If you sold lasers and you paid $12,000 for them and anything over that was put in your pocket, would you sell them for $12,500 or the start at the list price provided by the manufacturer for $19,500? My guess is every one of you would start the ball in the $19,500 range and work down.

In my opinion, I think it's completely disrespectful to post prices publicly. I'm in business to succeed. I bet you are too, so why not allow those that sell lasers the same chance to succeed?

Also, if you keep posting the prices, they'll fix it, they'll all just stop going low and stay higher because they know it's going to be posted online. Makes no sense to me at all. It's not MY job to get YOU a good price on a laser. It's YOUR job to get YOUR best price.

[Walt Langhans]

It's YOUR job to get YOUR best price.

Like it or not, he's got a good point. Also if you don't / can't want to negotiate then buy a laser with a listed price like Hurricane or Full Spectrum.

[Ross Moshinsky]

People clearly don't like this blind pricing model. It's nothing new. People for years and years hated dealing with car salesman because they always felt they were getting scammed. Now all invoice prices are posted on the net and it's a tougher life as a car salesman but people feel less likely to be ripped off walking out of a car dealer. It just takes someone coming out and posting the prices and the system can change.

The reason the system is so hard to change is because it works off fear and shame. I contact the vendors and have no idea their profit margins. They send me a price and I blindly negotiate. I get to a price I can live with and buy the machine for what I consider a fair price but then someone says "I got a smokin' deal for X, Y, and Z" and both sides never really say how much they spent and what they got for that money because of the social niceties of it all. The reality is, I could have gotten the "smokin" deal and the other person got ripped off. Rarely will either side know because neither wants to feel like an idiot.

I'm not going to discuss how much a sales person should or shouldn't make per sale. That's a can of worms I'm unwilling to open.

[Scott Shepherd]

Now all invoice prices are posted on the net and it's a tougher life as a car salesman but people feel less likely to be ripped off walking out of a car dealer. It just takes someone coming out and posting the prices and the system can change.

You're kidding, right? Do you think for one split second that a car dealer salesman is making less now than they were before that went to that model? Absolutely not. What you have now is all the profit hidden all over the place in the paper work that "base" it all off. If you think for one minute that car salesmen would show up to work and make 1/10 of what they made before, you're wrong.

That's exactly my point. Keep posting all this pricing information online and then no one will get a good deal. We'll all pay high prices and you won't be able to negotiate anything. You might think that's a great model. I don't. If I can buy a laser for $16,995 now and others might end up at $18,500, then all they'll do is say the new price is $18,500 and everyone pays that. So to help you, EVERYONE pays more. Because YOU couldn't negotiate on your own behalf, now I have to pay more? That's nonsense.

Like I said, if someone were taking your pricing for jobs and posting it online for your competitors to see, I don't think you'd be real happy about it either.

I'm just asking to have some sort of thought about it all, other than the selfish one of you wanting the best price, and realize that you are actually damaging ALL of the laser manufacturers when you go down this path. If Epilog quotes a price of $16,995 and it's posted online, do you think it's fair to Epilog for Universal and Trotec to now see what Epilog is quoting? That would mean Universal could make that call, PM, or email and say "Great News, the price of the Universal is $16,895".

If you wouldn't want it done to your business, then don't do it to someone else's.

[Jerome Stanek]

With cars you can shop for the best deal and compare item for item now on the internet. Not try and guess that you are getting the same thing for the same money. Why not post prices.

[Ronald Erickson]

Maybe everyone can post the cheapest prices and then the local sales reps can all go out of business. These people are there to make a living and to help you. If you post all the details on the greatest deals ever, you'll be cutting their throats. I'm not sure about the people you know, but if the people I know aren't too keen to help you when you're taking money out of their pockets.

There is no "one size fits all" pricing on lasers. Act like it's a car, used or new, and go negotiate your best deal.

Keep posting it all publicly and you'll watch all your local help dry up.

You wouldn't like it if you sold lasers, so why treat the people that sell lasers like that? If you sold lasers and you paid $12,000 for them and anything over that was put in your pocket, would you sell them for $12,500 or the start at the list price provided by the manufacturer for $19,500? My guess is every one of you would start the ball in the $19,500 range and work down.

In my opinion, I think it's completely disrespectful to post prices publicly. I'm in business to succeed. I bet you are too, so why not allow those that sell lasers the same chance to succeed?

Also, if you keep posting the prices, they'll fix it, they'll all just stop going low and stay higher because they know it's going to be posted online. Makes no sense to me at all. It's not MY job to get YOU a good price on a laser. It's YOUR job to get YOUR best price.

I do see your point. I'm all for supporting business and I'm all for a business making a profit. But are you really taking money out of their pocket by negotiating the best deal you can? Or are you preventing them from taking money from your pocket? That money in your pocket means more food on the table. Or maybe it means you can buy the materials you use to make the products you in turn sell.

Just like car dealers, laser manufacturers sell equipment daily. They have all the experience in the world with how to sell their product and how much they can afford to discount their product to make a sale. We, as the consumers of their products, buy them once. Or maybe we buy a few machines over our lifetime. But ultimately we have very limited experience with regards to purchasing the product they sell.

As an inexperienced consumer, it's my job to become informed. Not only do I want to find out about price, but I also want to find out about other's experiences with regards to working with a particular brand. Questions like which models are easiest to use for a beginner, which manufacturers have strong after sale support, which lasers require their operators to know how to tinker to get the machine working correctly. Wouldn't it be disrespectful for someone to post ANY information regarding a particular brand? By posting that you have to tweak chinese laser brand X because they have poor quality control, you are potentially costing them a sale.

[Ronald Erickson]

You're kidding, right? Do you think for one split second that a car dealer salesman is making less now than they were before that went to that model? Absolutely not. What you have now is all the profit hidden all over the place in the paper work that "base" it all off. If you think for one minute that car salesmen would show up to work and make 1/10 of what they made before, you're wrong.

That's exactly my point. Keep posting all this pricing information online and then no one will get a good deal. We'll all pay high prices and you won't be able to negotiate anything. You might think that's a great model. I don't. If I can buy a laser for $16,995 now and others might end up at $18,500, then all they'll do is say the new price is $18,500 and everyone pays that. So to help you, EVERYONE pays more. Because YOU couldn't negotiate on your own behalf, now I have to pay more? That's nonsense.

Like I said, if someone were taking your pricing for jobs and posting it online for your competitors to see, I don't think you'd be real happy about it either.

I'm just asking to have some sort of thought about it all, other than the selfish one of you wanting the best price, and realize that you are actually damaging ALL of the laser manufacturers when you go down this path. If Epilog quotes a price of $16,995 and it's posted online, do you think it's fair to Epilog for Universal and Trotec to now see what Epilog is quoting? That would mean Universal could make that call, PM, or email and say "Great News, the price of the Universal is $16,895".

If you wouldn't want it done to your business, then don't do it to someone else's.

Do you honestly believe that laser manufacturers don't have very intimate knowledge of their competitors pricing models already? Do you believe they haven't reverse engineered their competitors products and know approximately how much they cost to make?

Can you say you've never looked at a competitors product to figure out if you can do it cheaper? How is that fair to your competitor? Aren't you taking money out of his pocket by selling a product or service cheaper? :rolleyes: It's just the way capitalism works. You may not like someone price shopping your services, but how are you going to avoid it?

My suggestion is switch your tactics and concentrate more on building loyalty. Maybe your prices are higher, but then maybe your services are superior to someone running a shop in their basement. Get your first time customer in the door and profit from their word of mount. It's the return business that keeps you running, not the one time sale.

I don't believe anyone is being selfish by not wanting to overspend. No one is saying that laser manufacturers shouldn't make a profit. But I'm sure that people don't like the idea of funding someone's impromptu Bahamas trip because you overpaid by 35%.

While it may not be my job to get someone the best deal they can, I'm certainly more than happy to do so. Isn't that why we post on The Creek? To help others? :)

Edit: One last thing that I forgot to add...

If all the laser manufacturers decide to stop competing on price and keep their prices high, China (or someone else) is going to get smart and release a higher quality, lower priced product with local support. It will devastate the companies who don't adjust. Again, it's how capitalism works.

Personally, if my posting pricing information (in it's current limited form) helps someone else secure a deal, then I'm happy. And you know what? I bet the laser manufacturer that sold that person a laser is happy too.

[Scott Shepherd]

Like I said, the sales people that are answering that phone call and taking all your questions and showing you demos have to get paid from something. Do you think it makes sense for them to spend all their time for free? So how much should a rep make? $50,000 a year? $75,000 a year? $100,000 a year?

The model has been for some time that the manufacturers set the base price to sell to the dealers. Then, the dealers can mark it up to what they want to mark it up to. They are distributors, that's HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY!

You are free to shop all around.

I just don't agree with posting prices on the internet. Like I said, you wouldn't want YOUR prices posted on the internet, so why is okay to post their price?

You don't have to like it, but I can promise you one thing- keep this up and the prices are going to go up, not down, because NO ONE is going to want their lowest price stuck on the internet because then they'll have to give that to everyone. Maybe they like you. Maybe they went to the same school you did. Maybe they are just trying to meet a sales goal, so they let one go through cheap. What do they get for that? Penalized, because from that point on, as soon as it's on the internet, then they'll have to try and explain to everyone that calls about it why they gave you a low price.

I understand the motive, but I think there are things that are going to happen as result of this if it keeps up. If you're the guy that posted that low, low price, and you need help, do you really think they'll EVER give you a low price again? No way.

I've said it about 5 times now. If you wouldn't want your confidential quoting information put on the internet, then why it okay to put theirs?

And sure, they all know the base cost of each others machines, but I can assure you one thing, when someone is actively looking for a quote and they post a price, the other dealers had no knowledge of that price. Now they will. So where before, you had 3 people honestly quoting against each other, blindly, you'll now have 2 of the 3 with information that makes the original quote pointless.

Would you want your quotes put online so your competitor in the town you live in could just log in, look up your quote, and then beat your quote? I know I wouldn't. It would mean I'd probably never ever get another job.

This forum existed for the last 5 or 6 years without posting actual quoted prices, I'm not sure why it's needed now, other than a few people wanting to know. All of it can be done via private messaging and keeping it off of public forums.

The net result is it's going to hurt the dealers and when it hurts the dealers, who's going to pay? Us or them? I can promise you one thing, in the end, it'll hurt all of us.

[Ronald Erickson]

I have never posted confidential quote information. I do have integrity. All the quotes that I have received that I have been asked not to publish have not been published. The "list price" quotes I received were never regarded as confidential. I realize you may not be questioning my integrity, but I felt the need to make this specific point.

I actually DO plan to post my prices on the internet. Here's what I sell and here are my prices. It's all pretty simple. If I don't price accordingly, I wont sell the product. Why would I be offended if someone else sells the product and beats my price? I can either adjust my pricing, or offer other services to stay competitive. I'm not going to offer my goods and services at a loss, and neither would a laser manufacturer. That is also true of distributors... if a distributor can't make money selling a product then they would stop being a distributor for that product.

You wouldn't by chance be a distributor for some product, would you Steve? It would certainly expain your position about keeping prices hidden. I can certainly respect your opinion, but it doesn't coincide with the market trends in this day and age. Just take a look around at all the people doing price shopping with their smart phones this holiday.

Retailers must adopt to the changes consumers are forcing upon them or risk going out of business. But raising prices "because everyone knows them" won't work unless the entire market of laser manufacturers do the same thing. But that would only leave the market prime for a new manufacturer to come in and capture their market share.

As far as keeping the information off The Creek... I would bet money that the pricing post I made has actually ATTRACTED new people to The Creek who are specifically looking for information pertaining to the prices of laser equipment. Some of those people may even become contributors and help The Creek to grow. In fact, the person who originated this thread may have been attracted here during a google of "Trotec price" (2nd hit on google is The Creek). I doubt that's a bad thing. :). I didn't even know Trotec existed before I found out about them on The Creek and it was due to the actions of The Creek members that Trotec was successful in selling me a laser. Had I not posted the information, they would not have made the sale.

We disagree on whether pricing should be shared, and that's ok.

[James A. Wolfe]

Seems to be a lot of hand wringing over small potatoes. Pricing competition has existed since commerce began and suppliers adjust as they see fit in order to retain market share. Some manufacturers offer their products directly to the consumer and through their distributors effectively becoming competitors. If one manufacturer jacks up his prices because of someone getting a price quote on the Creek, I'm sure the other manufacturers will be happy to step up and lower their prices to capture market share. The term "Tempest in a Teapot" comes to mind.

[Glen Monaghan]

So how much should a rep make? $50,000 a year? $75,000 a year? $100,000 a year?
Don't know, don't care, not our problem, and the question is a red herring anyway.


I just don't agree with posting prices on the internet. Like I said, you wouldn't want YOUR prices posted on the internet, so why is okay to post their price?
People have repeatedly compared buying lasers to buying cars, where "the manufacturers set the base price to sell to the dealers. Then, the dealers can mark it up to what they want to mark it up to. They are distributors, that's HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY!". As you almost certainly know, there is an entire secondary industry to provide dealer costs, regional costs, and suggested "good deals" to car buyers for much the same reasons that laser buyers want to know what "good deals" are. And that certainly hasn't killed the auto industry.


NO ONE is going to want their lowest price stuck on the internet because then they'll have to give that to everyone.
How do you figure? Companies frequently offer sales, publicized or not (such as the trade show prices recently discussed at large, supermarket weekly deals, electronics companies' Black Friday specials, etc ad nauseum) and they certainly DO NOT give those prices to anyone anytime thereafter. Other laser shoppers have recently reported being told in no uncertain terms that they most certainly could NOT get the trade show deal without actually attending the show, nor could they get that price after the show. It is also normal to have a disclaimer on an offer stating who the offer is for and the time frame during which it is valid.


they let one go through cheap. What do they get for that? Penalized, because from that point on, as soon as it's on the internet, then they'll have to try and explain to everyone that calls about it why they gave you a low price.
Nothing new there. Dealers in every business I've dealt with have been happy to tell me why I can't get the same price an acquaintance got last week, or the price I got last month, or the price somebody posted on the net, whether it's because that was a limited time promotional price, their costs have risen, they had a year-end quota to meet, their sales are up and inventories are down, or whatever. It's up to the sales reps and their bosses to justify and convince you why their current price is the best they can do for you at this time and why it's in your best interests to take it; it's not our jobs to make it easiest for them to stay in business with highest profits possible.


If you wouldn't want your confidential quoting information put on the internet, then why it okay to put theirs?
I don't have confidential quoting information personally, I think there's something seriously wrong when people/companies resort to trying to hide their actually pricing from public awareness. Tells me they aren't particularly competitive on their own merits. If someone else undercuts them, then they either need to be more competitive or the undercutter isn't going to be able to sustain themselves either. Don't most of the businesses you deal with publish catalogs with price lists? Generally, confidential pricing is reserved for big ticket items that the sellers don't feel like they can adequately justify their markups.


Would you want your quotes put online so your competitor in the town you live in could just log in, look up your quote, and then beat your quote? I know I wouldn't. It would mean I'd probably never ever get another job.
This sort of thing hasn't put any competitive car companies out of business where I live...


I can promise you one thing, in the end, it'll hurt all of us.
Again, it hasn't hurt us with automobiles, audio equipment, computers...

-Glen

[Keith Outten]

The subject of sharing prices has never been discussed here in this detail however it is probably a good time for us to set some guidelines based on the opinions expressed in this thread.

The majority of times we discuss pricing publicly the discussions are based on catalog or advertised prices. The comparison of laser engravers to automobiles isn't quite accurate because cars and trucks have a sticker price on the window and sale prices are frequently advertised in the newspaper or on dealers web sites. Laser engravers are not promoted in this same way, some manufacturers and their distributors prefer an alternate way of doing business and we should respect their right to establish their own policies.

If we put aside our personal preferences for the duration of this conversation I think we would all agree that each company should be allowed to establish their own policies concerning sales and customer negotiations. Ours is a free marketplace which guarantees any business or individual the right to operate in their best interests when it comes to commerce as long as the law of the land is not violated.

When SawMill Creek was established we decided that one of our primary goals would be to try our best to connect vendors with woodworkers. The idea that we would all benefit from an open line of communication isn't new but it has always been a difficult goal for any online community. No matter which side of this debate you stand I think everyone should agree that we need to be respectful of other woodworkers and the same should apply to the companies we purchase machines, tools, materials and services. In that light we should extend our policy prohibiting the posting of private information to include prices that are not advertised.
.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Keith,

Just because they want to do something doesn't mean as consumers we have to play by their rules. Their rules are there to benefit them. As consumers, we're supposed to look out for ourselves. Their tactics work so well that no one in this thread has still mentioned a single price. The only explanation for that is fear.

There is absolutely no ethical reason why laser pricing shouldn't be discussed openly. This doesn't mean there aren't issues with discussing the pricing openly but that's for the individuals to determine if it's worth it. It shouldn't be a rule on the site.

[Scott Shepherd]

Don't know, don't care, not our problem, and the question is a red herring anyway.

Why is it a red herring? Because you want to tell someone what they can make or when they are charging too much. These sales reps have to make a paycheck. They do that through selling equipment for a profit.


People have repeatedly compared buying lasers to buying cars, where "the manufacturers set the base price to sell to the dealers. Then, the dealers can mark it up to what they want to mark it up to. They are distributors, that's HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY!". As you almost certainly know, there is an entire secondary industry to provide dealer costs, regional costs, and suggested "good deals" to car buyers for much the same reasons that laser buyers want to know what "good deals" are. And that certainly hasn't killed the auto industry.

I didn't say it killed the auto industry. I said that the pricing model has changed, but their profit remains the same.



How do you figure? Companies frequently offer sales, publicized or not (such as the trade show prices recently discussed at large, supermarket weekly deals, electronics companies' Black Friday specials, etc ad nauseum) and they certainly DO NOT give those prices to anyone anytime thereafter. Other laser shoppers have recently reported being told in no uncertain terms that they most certainly could NOT get the trade show deal without actually attending the show, nor could they get that price after the show. It is also normal to have a disclaimer on an offer stating who the offer is for and the time frame during which it is valid.

Sure, take that approach, but when people gave the "trade show pricing", a handful of people cried foul. So it's okay to have a sale everywhere else, but not in the laser industry, I guess.



Nothing new there. Dealers in every business I've dealt with have been happy to tell me why I can't get the same price an acquaintance got last week, or the price I got last month, or the price somebody posted on the net, whether it's because that was a limited time promotional price, their costs have risen, they had a year-end quota to meet, their sales are up and inventories are down, or whatever. It's up to the sales reps and their bosses to justify and convince you why their current price is the best they can do for you at this time and why it's in your best interests to take it; it's not our jobs to make it easiest for them to stay in business with highest profits possible.

I don't suggest that it is. What I do know for a fact is what has happened to one line of lasers. They did just what some of you are suggesting and it basically took all the loyal, great reps, the one's that are head and shoulders above the rest and punished them financially. I've personally been told "I've already got too much time in this issue and I'm losing money now. From this point forward, you'll have to call the factory and sort it out yourself". Is that really the model you want? It's not the model I want. So taking away all the profit from the reps so everyone can have Wal-Mart style pricing does nothing but cost ALL of us service and support at some level. I've seen it happen in this industry already. I'd hate to see it happen more.


You wouldn't by chance be a distributor for some product, would you Steve? It would certainly expain your position about keeping prices hidden.

Ron, you, and anyone else, is welcome in my shop any day. I've never been, and still am not, a distributor for any manufacturer. I get paychecks from no manufacturers. Am I passionate about this business? Absolutely!

[Rodne Gold]

My opinion is that a ban on pricing discussion is counterproductive.
I think the prime function of this forum is one user helping another in the spirit of philanthropy and altruism and not protection of vendors.
Pricing or affordability is a vital part of the decision making process when considering a laser , so why would we be imparting all our best and in depth knowledge to forumites in all other departments barring price?

[James A. Wolfe]

Well said Mr. Gold. Let's not forget who "owns" the forum and to whom its benefits should accrue.
Jim

[Ronald Erickson]

In that light we should extend our policy prohibiting the posting of private information to include prices that are not advertised.
.

Could you (or anyone) please direct me to where I can find the policy/rules section of the forum? I've read the terms of service and the FAQ, but I haven't come across the policy and rules for posting section of the forum (and I've spent the past hour searching). I'm probably just not seeing it so I'd be grateful for any assistance in finding it. :)

[Mark Winlund]

Counterproductive? Idiotic. If you are going to ban discussions of price, why not extend the ban to prices we charge for products made with the laser? Capitalism is all about competition, and competition includes pricing. Competition almost always improves quality and reduces cost. People who are not willing to compete go out of business.

Mark

[Bill Cunningham]

I'm curious about laser pricing for the simple reason is that I will have to replace mine in a couple of years. I will in all probability buy another Epilog, so knowing the general prices now, will tell me what I have to expect in a couple of years. Virtually everything in electronics has decreased in price, or vastly increased in capabilities over the last 10-20 years. Lasers have done both, and I fully expect this trend to continue. If I know that in 2 years I'm going to have to cough up 25-30k for a new machine, I will certainly expect to get more machine for my money than was available 10 years ago. With this information, I can plan both my future financing and shop space availability. Without this vital information, I'm just guessing and/or depending on only one source of pricing information with no room for a fair negotiation for either side. When it comes to price, fore warned is fore armed, let the negotiations begin!

[Scott Shepherd]

I can plan both my future financing and shop space availability. Without this vital information, I'm just guessing and/or depending on only one source of pricing information with no room for a fair negotiation for either side. When it comes to price, fore warned is fore armed, let the negotiations begin!

It's really simple.....you call the laser manufacturers and ask for quotes.

Yes, things have changed a lot. We paid roughly the same for our 75W Trotec as our 45W Epilog, and our 45W Universal. So time does make a big difference. For what you paid back then, you can probably get 75-80W now.

[Ronald Erickson]

Banning pricing discussions means we have to ban threads like http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?143725-DIY-air-filtration-unit-for-lt-200 for the simple reason that General Carbon, the provider of the activated charcoal discussed in this thread, does not publish the prices of the activated carbon they sell. How can you have a "build a custom filter for $xxx" if you don't have the pricing of the components? (BTW, the thread has a lot of great information on building your own filter)

[matthew knott]

I personally hate secret pricing, all the manufactures have a bottom price that they wont go below, and and unpublished RRP, the sales guy will then try to get the maximum he can out of people. If that's how they want to play it, fair enough, but i don't think they have the right to keep these prices secret. If someone buys a laser its up to them if they publish the price, even if they are asked to keep it quiet. I know its hard for the sales guys, but that's what the internet has done, information overload, people are better connected. I would take a guess that the manufactures will fire off (if not already) email asking for any posts with pricing to be removed, as they sponsor the sight this will be done! Its normal form chain off events. Forum starts, group of like minded people gather, a company wants to sell something to all these people, they advertise, then if anything is posted negative about them they can flex their muscles as they pay. I think as long as its not libelous or untrue it should be ok to publish, but thats just my opinion.

[Kim Vellore]

This forum is open to all including the manufacturers, I have not seen much participation from the manufacturers, People are talking on behalf of the manufacturer, I Ignore their speculation. If the manufacturer does not want the numbers published here they should speak up here or put it in their quote that it is confidential between them and the addressee. I am curious to know the prices. I may not be looking for a laser but if the prices are better than what I have been imagining I might land up buying or upgrading to a Trotec. That is different from calling up all manufacturers every year and asking them for prices without having intention on buying immediately. One way of marketing is flashing low prices and trying to make you buy things you really did not plan on buying, that works almost for everything from small things to buying homes or vacations.
I want to know prices, not show or special prices just list price. You cant even find list price on any of these lasers.

Kim

[Keith Outten]

I personally hate secret pricing, all the manufactures have a bottom price that they wont go below, and and unpublished RRP, the sales guy will then try to get the maximum he can out of people. If that's how they want to play it, fair enough, but i don't think they have the right to keep these prices secret. If someone buys a laser its up to them if they publish the price, even if they are asked to keep it quiet. I know its hard for the sales guys, but that's what the internet has done, information overload, people are better connected. I would take a guess that the manufactures will fire off (if not already) email asking for any posts with pricing to be removed, as they sponsor the sight this will be done! Its normal form chain off events. Forum starts, group of like minded people gather, a company wants to sell something to all these people, they advertise, then if anything is posted negative about them they can flex their muscles as they pay. I think as long as its not libelous or untrue it should be ok to publish, but thats just my opinion.

Matthew,

For the record I have not been contacted by any laser manufacturer or distributor and asked to remove price information or to change our policy.
There are only two advertisers here that are laser manufacturers so they only represent a small portion of our advertising income.

I am probably with the majority here in that I dislike the private pricing system. What I do like is the idea that people and companies have the right to establish their own rules concerning their property, services and business practices. I think that in spite of our preferences the honorable thing to do is to respect their system based primarily on the fact that all of the laser companies seem to work in the same manner. Our Community cannot gain anything by going against a company policy whether we like it or not. In fact we stand to lose ground that we have worked hard to gain over the years. Case in point the management contact and discount that Trotec has offered everyone here, this is based on mutual respect between our Community and the Management Team at Trotec. I personally prefer to see us continue to improve our relationship with Trotec and attract other companies as well rather than antagonize the companies we do business with.

Note: I use the term We because I have purchased five laser engravers, enough to be part of this group and affected by the decision we make.
.

[Keith Outten]

Kim,

The only manufacturers that are allowed to post here are our current advertisers. All others may join The Creek as Members of our Community but they must leave their title and company affiliation at the door. The Creek exists based on the premise that we are all equal here, this is our house that we designed and we operate for the good of our Community.

For the most part companies understand that we are serious about the rules here and they respect our turf for want of a better term. They are welcome here as individuals, the only exception is our advertisers and they are not allowed to do business here outside of the Deals and Discounts Forum. The primary Forums here belong to our Woodworkers, in this case our Laser Engravers.
.

[Keith Outten]

Keith,

Just because they want to do something doesn't mean as consumers we have to play by their rules. Their rules are there to benefit them. As consumers, we're supposed to look out for ourselves. Their tactics work so well that no one in this thread has still mentioned a single price. The only explanation for that is fear.

There is absolutely no ethical reason why laser pricing shouldn't be discussed openly. This doesn't mean there aren't issues with discussing the pricing openly but that's for the individuals to determine if it's worth it. It shouldn't be a rule on the site.

Ross,

Very few here understand how powerful we are as a Community. We have over 65,000 registered Members and there are approximately 40 to 60 thousand people who visit SawMill Creek every day. Our situation is much like the old "Power of the Press" except the roles are reversed.

There is absolutely no fear here of anyone or anything.

We have nothing to gain by establishing a combative relationship with companies that we patronize. We can only gain by strengthening our relationships with business leaders because we need the machines they provide and they need customers.
.

[Kenny Schmidt]

With buying just about any other equipment for our company it isn't like buying a used car like it is with lasers. I'm not fond of this practice and while it makes a lot of sense on cars and on used equipment I think it's silly dealing with the deviations on pricing I've seen.

The draw of the Trotec for us was that they are headquartered 15 minutes away from us and service wouldn't be an issue and I have read how they are more robust, better parts(more reliable), quicker than the competition.

With the pricing for the 40 watt models starting at 12k and going up to almost 17k, we will likely pursue the 6040 Rabbit Laser and luckily Cincinnati is only 4 hours away from us so checking it out will be easy. I assume engraving speed is quite a bit worse than the main 3 companies but for about 1/3 of the cost of an almost comparable laser from Universal / Epilog / Trotec it sounds like a good idea. I like how the price difference between the 40watt and 60watt is only 500 dollars too so we can get 50% more power inexpensively...Will be doing more research on the Rabbit and glass tube lasers.

Perhaps after our first laser we can look back into 'the big 3' once we have more of an idea of our needs and require more throughput.

[Ronald Erickson]

Matthew,

For the record I have not been contacted by any laser manufacturer or distributor and asked to remove price information or to change our policy.
There are only two advertisers here that are laser manufacturers so they only represent a small portion of our advertising income.

I am probably with the majority here in that I dislike the private pricing system. What I do like is the idea that people and companies have the right to establish their own rules concerning their property, services and business practices. I think that in spite of our preferences the honorable thing to do is to respect their system based primarily on the fact that all of the laser companies seem to work in the same manner. Our Community cannot gain anything by going against a company policy whether we like it or not. In fact we stand to lose ground that we have worked hard to gain over the years. Case in point the management contact and discount that Trotec has offered everyone here, this is based on mutual respect between our Community and the Management Team at Trotec. I personally prefer to see us continue to improve our relationship with Trotec and attract other companies as well rather than antagonize the companies we do business with.

Note: I use the term We because I have purchased five laser engravers, enough to be part of this group and affected by the decision we make.
.

(Bolded emphasis mine)

Keith,

Wouldn't it be true to say that once I purchase a laser, it is considered MY property? Aren't we free to discuss our own property? Who am I going to hurt by stating how much I paid for a piece of equipment that I've purchased?

I'm building an exhaust system and I would like to make a post containing detailed information on how I build it and how much it cost me to build. How am I going to be able to communicate and share with The Creek any of that information if I cannot discuss the products I've purchased and how much they cost? Maybe someone else will have a suggestion that reduces my overall expense of developing the exhaust system. However, with a "no pricing" rule, any prices that are not publicly available cannot be discussed.

Trotec is burdened with an overpriced stigma. In my opinion, by not allowing pricing discussions you are entrenching that stigma and preventing new buyers from making informed decisions through the use of The Creek.

Edit: I have a followup question: Are you specifically prohibiting sharing pricing information via PM?

Second question: Where might I find the forum rules where this new policy will be listed? I've searched high and low on the site and still cannot find "the rules".

[Gary Hair]

Edit: I have a followup question: Are you specifically prohibiting sharing pricing information via PM?

Second question: Where might I find the forum rules where this new policy will be listed? I've searched high and low on the site and still cannot find "the rules".

Ron,
I have been reading this thread and don't see where you are getting the idea that we are prohibited from sharing pricing information either in a thread or via pm. Maybe I missed it but I don't see that anywhere.

Personally, I believe that anything you chose to post is up to you as long as it follows the TOS of this site. Regardless of what a manufacturer might ask you to do, they really can't do anything to stop you from posting your price.

Gary

edit: The terms of service, rules of the forum, are linked at the bottom right of every page.

[Keith Outten]

When you purchase an item you represent only half of the transaction. The other party should have something to say concerning the transfer or ownership.

I have not suggested that we prohibit discussing prices, unless the seller has a policy against the disclosure of the monetary value of a transaction. In other words you and I come to an agreement I expect that you will honor your promise to me if I ask you not to publicize the details of our transaction. We already know that laser manufacturers prefer not to make their prices available publicly, no doubt they have their own reasons for such a policy and we should show them the same courtesy we would show each other.

Ron, once you own a piece of equipment its yours to do with as you wish. The conditions of the sale of your machine is another story.
We are discussing the possibility of changing the rule concerning sharing pricing information publicly right now in this thread. Should the rule be changed it will be included in our Terms of Service and the FAQ section of our Announcements thread. You can find the TOS link at the bottom of every page. You can find the Announcements thread link at the top of every Forum main page.

This is a case of us doing the right thing even though we don't necessarily like the change. These types of rules define our Community. There are other rules here that are also unpopular however we all know that they are in the majority's best interests.
.

[Scott Shepherd]

I guess it's all a massive difference in opinion. I personally believe that Universal and Trotec are my partners to some degree. My feedback to them helps build a better product for me. When I need something, I call, they help. If I were to go online anywhere and start disclosing things that would hurt their business, or go against their wishes, I think my relationship with them would be damaged. A damaged relationship with my "partner", so to speak, isn't healthy at all for our business.

If I were to do something that didn't want me to, when I need a part, do you think I'll get any deals? Probably not. When I need another laser, do you think I'll get a good deal? Probably not. Everyone in the company will know my name and know that I was the one that said things that hurt their business model and it's employees.

Some people have the opinion that no matter what you say or do, it doesn't change that relationship. I just disagree with that.

I WANT and VALUE my relationship with Universal and Trotec. I need it. There are things I have worked with to get corrected that probably never would have been corrected if I didn't have that relationship. Driver issues that appeared to be minor to some, but were major to me. I video taped and sent off an email last week to Universal about a bug in the driver. I already have a fix, in a beta driver now. That's because I have that relationship with them.

I've already had several discussions with Trotec about some features I think would be more helpful for operators. They seem very willing to listen and work with us on that. I can't say that I believe they'd be listening to me if I did something that they didn't want me to do online, regarding their pricing.

When I go to buy auto parts from the Ford or Chevy dealer, they have a tiered pricing system. You're going to pay 1 of 4 prices, depending on what they want to charge. A Big Mac doesn't cost the same in New York as it does in Alabama.

It's really sad that something that hasn't been an issue since the laser forum existed is being pushed and pushed so hard that it's going to result in a permanent change to the forum. 10,000's of people have been here and not one issue, now all of the sudden, it's a crisis to not have public pricing information. Say goodbye to low quotes, because no one will get good deals because they'll know it'll just end up posted on the internet.

This really is a lose-lose situation. In an effort to help others, it's going to cost all of us more when we buy lasers because no one is going to want that cheap quote posted, so they just won't give it.

[Mike Null]

I am in agreement with Steve. Trotec is and has been my partner from day one--and a very good one I might add. I see no gain for anybody in posting pricing for lasers on this forum and if I were in charge would ban the specifics of price negotiation. There are good reasons why mfrs do not post prices but if somebody shops on the basis of price alone they are not nearly as sophisticated as they think.

Early on I had some issues with a design feature that Trotec subsequently changed for the better--I'm sure it wasn't my suggestion alone but they changed it. I fumed about their manual and they worked to improve that, though it's not where I would like it to be.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Ross,

Very few here understand how powerful we are as a Community. We have over 65,000 registered Members and there are approximately 40 to 60 thousand people who visit SawMill Creek every day. Our situation is much like the old "Power of the Press" except the roles are reversed.

There is absolutely no fear here of anyone or anything.

We have nothing to gain by establishing a combative relationship with companies that we patronize. We can only gain by strengthening our relationships with business leaders because we need the machines they provide and they need customers.
.

As I've said, the fear is not just that you'll create a "combative relationship" with the companies. The fear is also feeling stupid or inadequate amongst your peers. No one wants to come out and say "I spent $35,000 for a X laser" and then be told "You could have got that same machine for $25,000". It's almost better to live in blissful ignorance as imagine how upset you'd be if you made a $10,000 mistake. Do you think you're building a good relationship with customers if you charge one $25,000 and one $35,000?

The reason people don't post prices is very simple. It creates fear that you'll sour the relationship between yourself and the company if you use all negotiation tactics available. You don't post your price because of the fear of the unknown and feeling stupid/inadequate amongst peers. Salesman negotiate prices all day. Most people don't do it very often and are typically uncomfortable doing it. All of these things give the advantage to the sales person. I don't blame them for doing this as they are out to make a buck just like the rest of us, but the fact still remains, just because they want to do something doesn't mean consumers can't do things to give themselves an advantage.

[Martin Boekers]

I have an issue with comparing buying a laser to a car. First off in St Louis there maybe 10 Chevy dealers selling the same car.
I can go to what ever dealer and work out a competative price. Laser Dealers have territories. If you want to buy a laser you have
to deal with the rep from your territory, whether you like them or not. There is no competion there to buy the same product.
My father sold cars for ove 40 years, car salesmen did make more money then, that I know. As for as invoice cost to dealers that
all is a smoke screen. Dealers don't buy cars at a set price and resell them. They have a floor plan which they guarentee a certain number
of cars and style on their lots. They basically pay "interest" for the car until it sells, so the longer a car is on the lot the quicker they
want to move it, hence some cars have a larger discount. Think about the 10% over invoice, do you really think a car dealers and
saleman can make a profit at that margine? They have their actual profits hidden in the paperwork. That I know from experience.
One other note we too are business people, do we really get the same respect from vendors and manufactures that some expect us to give them?
Just a thought.

[Scott Shepherd]

Then don't compare it to a car, compare it to a piece of capital equipment. Compare it to a CNC router. Compare it to a $50,000 piece of shop equipment. Compare it to things like that. Negotiating has been a part of buying equipment since equipment started being sold.

And as a point of reference, car dealers get kickbacks at the end of the year, based on selling a number of cars. I know a fairly small dealer in a rural part of the state that got a $1,000,000 check at the end of the year. So if he "broke even" on every car, then he still cleared $1,000,000, which is my point exactly. If you force them into something, they'll just change the rules and the consumer will lose.

All they have to do is start saying "The new lowest price is now $26,500". Buy it if you want, don't if you don't want. So the $24,500 deals will be gone forever. So who won? The consumer? Nope.

You can't beat someone into pricing their machines different. They control it all. They'll just stop giving deals to people. Yeah, that'll really help the little guy.

If you don't like how Trotec, Universal, or Epilog price their machines, then don't buy one. Or you can follow my lead. I complained about the service of a company on here one time. The owner came on and banned me from ever doing business with his company again. Maybe it would be great to post your price and then have them refuse to sell you the machine or do business with you. It's a free market. Don't like their business practices, then go to their competitor. No one is entitled to the lowest price, that's something you have to do on your own through running your business wisely.

[Mark Ross]

Kenny,

Also you have to compare apples to apples, we have 2 Epilog 36EXT's where I work. They are air cooled units, no coolant, no pumps, no worrying about coolant levels and so on. Cheaper machines have to cut corners somewhere, be it on reliability (changing bearings every 10k hours), or being liquid cooled versus air cooled, or having USA based customer service and so on. Quoting Chinese units against those made in the USA is not an apples to apples comparison.

[Martin Boekers]

WoW this thread certainly transpired. I guess they way to deal with it if you want the machine but don't want to buy from their "Territory" Rep
call the manufacturer and complain directly about it. The Rep doesn't service the machine, the manufacturer does so.... that maybe the way to
get satisfaction. Don't get held "hostage" from a "territory" distributer that doesn't want to participate with you. (I am sure that will ruffle some feathers ;) )

[Kim Vellore]

I think this is a wrong perspective

"I've already had several discussions with Trotec about some features I think would be more helpful for operators. They seem very willing to listen and work with us on that. I can't say that I believe they'd be listening to me if I did something that they didn't want me to do online, regarding their pricing."

If I were the manufacturer I would not keep a grudge if something is going to make my product better. I think the more open the manufacturer is the better the communication channel is from everyone, including ideas to improve their product. Manufacturers are to loose if they make some people feel elite because they have been behaving well.
Trotec has to improve on their communication first by starting to respond to their potential buyers. I am so impressed by some of the features I would love to convince myself to buy a Trotec but I have my reservations.

Kim

[Ronald Erickson]

In that light we should extend our policy prohibiting the posting of private information to include prices that are not advertised.
.


Should the rule be changed it will be included in our Terms of Service and the FAQ section of our Announcements thread. You can find the TOS link at the bottom of every page. You can find the Announcements thread link at the top of every Forum main page.

These types of rules define our Community. There are other rules here that are also unpopular however we all know that they are in the majority's best interests.

Thank you for the information Keith. The reason I was asking where the policy would be posted is because I was confused specifically about "our policy prohibiting the posting of private information". I read the TOS a half-dozen times along with the announcements section and I still don't see any reference on prohibiting the posting of private information. To me the confusion is extending a policy that I don't see listed anywhere.

Would this new policy prohibit the sharing of non-publicized pricing information via PM? PM is not publicly available and represents a personal communication between members. As it is not publicly published and instead is contained within a private communication, would sharing the price I paid for something violate The Creek's TOS?

If someone asks me how much I paid for a 55 lb bag of activated charcoal from General Carbon, a distributor who does not list pricing on it's website, would I be in violation of The Creek's newly revised TOS if I list the price I paid?

Is it a requirement for me to thoroughly investigate if General Carbon has a "policy" against posting pricing information in order to stay in compliance with The Creek's new TOS should I wish to post a build it for $xxx thread and include General Carbon's product in the thread? Or is it up to General Carbon to publish their pricing "policy" so I can comply with it?

[Ronald Erickson]

Kenny,

Also you have to compare apples to apples, we have 2 Epilog 36EXT's where I work. They are air cooled units, no coolant, no pumps, no worrying about coolant levels and so on. Cheaper machines have to cut corners somewhere, be it on reliability (changing bearings every 10k hours), or being liquid cooled versus air cooled, or having USA based customer service and so on. Quoting Chinese units against those made in the USA is not an apples to apples comparison.

In the end, it's a laser. One will have advantages over another so it's important to do your due diligence. With one brand, you pay for that USA support, air cooled tube, and quality of parts; it may cost you 75% more up front. With another, you may save a ton of money with the initial investment, but you may have to sacrifice support and timely parts that can cost you long after the purchase is over.

[Keith Outten]

Private Messages are private, nobody needs to know what is said between two people.

[Michael Hunter]

This thread is out of control and threatens to provoke a ban on questions about supplier's prices which would be most unhelpful. (Surely this would have to affect discussion of any and all prices, not just the laser machines).

The original post seems quite reasonable to me - the OP was not asking for publicly displayed pricing and an answer such as "yes 50W will probably cost you a lot more" would have settled the matter quickly without breaking any confidences.

If a supplier requests that their quote remains confidential, then that should be respected. That should not, however, prevent a quote being discussed in general terms (e.g. "that seems a bit steep" or "I got a great deal from XXX").

It think it would be helpful if the laser companies were less secretive about their **LIST** prices.

[Martin Boekers]

One thing no one has really touched on is how salesmen react when they are told their pricing seems a bit steep.
Some may give their justification as to why and others may just say that's our pricing. Do reps have storefronts?
or do they recommend visiting someone elses shop? Some may not work you through the process of purchase
and set up. If they sell it they sell it if not then not. If they don't have time invested they don't have to sell as many.
Could be why they discount at Trade Shows.

I too think this thread has ran it's course. Catch ya on the next one. :)

[Ross Moshinsky]

Then don't compare it to a car, compare it to a piece of capital equipment. Compare it to a CNC router. Compare it to a $50,000 piece of shop equipment. Compare it to things like that. Negotiating has been a part of buying equipment since equipment started being sold.

And as a point of reference, car dealers get kickbacks at the end of the year, based on selling a number of cars. I know a fairly small dealer in a rural part of the state that got a $1,000,000 check at the end of the year. So if he "broke even" on every car, then he still cleared $1,000,000, which is my point exactly. If you force them into something, they'll just change the rules and the consumer will lose.

All they have to do is start saying "The new lowest price is now $26,500". Buy it if you want, don't if you don't want. So the $24,500 deals will be gone forever. So who won? The consumer? Nope.

You can't beat someone into pricing their machines different. They control it all. They'll just stop giving deals to people. Yeah, that'll really help the little guy.

If you don't like how Trotec, Universal, or Epilog price their machines, then don't buy one. Or you can follow my lead. I complained about the service of a company on here one time. The owner came on and banned me from ever doing business with his company again. Maybe it would be great to post your price and then have them refuse to sell you the machine or do business with you. It's a free market. Don't like their business practices, then go to their competitor. No one is entitled to the lowest price, that's something you have to do on your own through running your business wisely.

How is a car not a capital investment? Do you know a lot of people without a car making a lot of money outside of big cities? Cars allow you to make money indirectly and often directly.

Anyway, the point wasn't that buying a car and a laser is the same thing. It's that if you went back to the 1970's, you'd walk into the dealership, look at the price tag, and negotiate blindly. Now you have resources on the internet where people post how much they spent. You have resources which list an "invoice price". You have resources which allow you to find out average cost of ownership and problems with a model. Now people walk into car dealerships comfortable that they won't get beaten. Before, most people viewed cars salesman as slippery fish to put it nicely. Car salesman aren't viewed in the same way anymore.

[Scott Shepherd]

How is a car not a capital investment? Do you know a lot of people without a car making a lot of money outside of big cities? Cars allow you to make money indirectly and often directly.

Anyway, the point wasn't that buying a car and a laser is the same thing. It's that if you went back to the 1970's, you'd walk into the dealership, look at the price tag, and negotiate blindly. Now you have resources on the internet where people post how much they spent. You have resources which list an "invoice price". You have resources which allow you to find out average cost of ownership and problems with a model. Now people walk into car dealerships comfortable that they won't get beaten. Before, most people viewed cars salesman as slippery fish to put it nicely. Car salesman aren't viewed in the same way anymore.

I can't win with some of you. I say it's like a car, I get told it's not like a car at all. So I say "Okay, it's not like buying a car" and now I'm told it's like buying a car.....

I give up. I've given real life examples of what's happened to me and it's all just dismissed as "speculation".

Bottom line is this- it's Keith's forum, he's said you can't post that information. Last time I checked, that meant case closed. End of discussion. You don't have to like it, but that's the rule in his house, and when I'm in his house, I'll do as he wishes.

[Mike Null]

Ron

I agree that exploring all options is good practice. From my experience in a previous life I've dealt with making product comparisons for the purpose of developing consumer products and pricing. The first part of that is to weed out products that are not truly in the same category. While all are indeed lasers the similarity ends there and one must drill this down to models with like features. In this instance the tubes alone would begin the separation.

I am baffled a bit by how you could make such a splendid choice of a machine then make the apples to apples statement.

[Keith Outten]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

If we can remove laser engravers from this conversation for just one moment and consider that a change in this policy will probably affect other items as well.
The question then is simply whether this Community will respect the policies of any company that prefers to keep their price structure out of the public square.

[Lee DeRaud]

The question then is simply whether this Community will respect the policies of any company that prefers to keep their price structure out of the public square.Obviously, it's your call either way.

But it always struck me that companies that operated that way were not doing it for the good of their customers. If they don't respect us (or their competitors), it's kind of hard to respect them. Not to mention that, if a vendor's prices are out of line, I'd just as soon find out about it here, rather than go through some kabuki dance to find out.

[Ronald Erickson]

Keith,

In direct answer to your question, I would respect the policies of any company that prefers to keep their price structure out of the public square as long as said companies actually have such policies and it is made known to me that such policy exists.

An easy solution to keep the price structure out of the public square is to create a section of the forum that requires registered or contributor access and isn't set to be robo-indexed by a search engine. Then the price talk can exist, but in a non-public forum. Then the rules become simple: no price talk in public sections of the forum. Only those sections that are non-public can allow price talk.

I would be interested in members contributing their ideas of items that would potentially be affected by the change.

[Lee DeRaud]

I would be interested in members contributing their ideas of items that would potentially be affected by the change.Uh, that would be "everything": there' s no way it makes sense to implement a no-price-discussion policy for one thing and not another. It's not just laser manufacturers who keep their prices (semi-)secret. Such policies affect everything from $50K lasers to $5 pen blanks.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

If we can remove laser engravers from this conversation for just one moment and consider that a change in this policy will probably affect other items as well.
The question then is simply whether this Community will respect the policies of any company that prefers to keep their price structure out of the public square.

No company giving a price quote should have the expectation of it being confidential unless you agree to keep it confidential. If there is no confidential agreement, it's at the discretion of either party whether they decide to share the information or not. Whether or not you agree it's good business or good taste to discuss the details of a business deal is never going to be something universally agreed upon.

My opinion is you're fighting a losing battle if you want to restrict the discussion of the price of items. For example, you've posted the price of Corian many times on this forum. If someone did a search, they could find out that a sheet of Corian costs X dollars and they might be confused why they are paying 5-10x that amount for their counters. Is that fair to the counter top installer?

As people have mentioned on here, very rarely do laser prices get openly discussed here. I believe it's for the reasons I've already posted. We're 4 pages into this discussion and I don't believe anyone has come out and even said how much they've paid for any of their equipment. So really, is there an issue here?

[Chris Edens]

I don't think that any of these companies have written policies for customers to not disclose the pricing they received. So why protect them? They make money at whatever price they sell them for. They are not losing $$ on "show" pricing. It's one thing to charge $500-$1,000 more depending on a promo but to charge someone $5,000 more is pretty brazen.

The market that the laser engraving product is in is very NICHE and thats the only reason they can get away with it. If these things were mainstream you better believe the pricing would be everywhere.

[Rodne Gold]

I think restricting the free flow of information on the forum in is wrong. Those who want to post what they paid for an item should be able to do so and we should be able to comment when we see others getting ripped off. This could lead to other areas being verboten topics , like issues a user has with a particular laser or brand might not be "allowed"...

I don't believe the manufacturers need protection. The drive for "confidentiality" on the forum seems driven by fears that some users service and future discount position might be compromised...any company that strikes back at a user and potentially good PR source and future buyer this way deserves to go under..it's a despicable attitude on their part and to some extent extortion or blackmail.
The perception generated with all this pricing secrecy is that there is perhaps something underhand going on.

[Keith Outten]

Keith,

In direct answer to your question, I would respect the policies of any company that prefers to keep their price structure out of the public square as long as said companies actually have such policies and it is made known to me that such policy exists.

An easy solution to keep the price structure out of the public square is to create a section of the forum that requires registered or contributor access and isn't set to be robo-indexed by a search engine. Then the price talk can exist, but in a non-public forum. Then the rules become simple: no price talk in public sections of the forum. Only those sections that are non-public can allow price talk.

I would be interested in members contributing their ideas of items that would potentially be affected by the change.

Ron,

The Lumber Yard Forum here is what you have described, a private forum for Contributors that is not accessible to any search engine. The Lumber Yard Forum is open for discussion on any topic except politics and religion.

[Gary Hair]

I'm looking but I don't see it... where is the like button???


I think restricting the free flow of information on the forum in is wrong. Those who want to post what they paid for an item should be able to do so and we should be able to comment when we see others getting ripped off. This could lead to other areas being verboten topics , like issues a user has with a particular laser or brand might not be "allowed"...

I don't believe the manufacturers need protection. The drive for "confidentiality" on the forum seems driven by fears that some users service and future discount position might be compromised...any company that strikes back at a user and potentially good PR source and future buyer this way deserves to go under..it's a despicable attitude on their part and to some extent extortion or blackmail.
The perception generated with all this pricing secrecy is that there is perhaps something underhand going on.

[Mike Null]

There isn't any of this I agree with.


The drive for "confidentiality" on the forum seems driven by fears that some users service and future discount position might be compromised...any company that strikes back at a user and potentially good PR source and future buyer this way deserves to go under..it's a despicable attitude on their part and to some extent extortion or blackmail.
The perception generated with all this pricing secrecy is that there is perhaps something underhand going on.

[Gary Hair]

There isn't any of this I agree with.

If you read back through the thread you'll see that in the first sentence Rodney is paraphrasing what has already been said and the second sentence is his opinion. Agree or not, it's easy to believe and difficult to argue with.

[Mike Null]

Gary

I am referring to the enclosed quote paragraph and I don't see anything to it.

[Scott Shepherd]

So I guess Mike and I are the only one's that don't think the laser manufacturers are actual criminals for the way they take advantage of us all.

[Glen Monaghan]

I don't think they are criminals but I do think that trying to keep your prices secret is a vendor's way of artificially holding profits higher than the vendor believes is truly justifiable. Clearly, it is an effort to take unfair advantage of inexperienced consumers.

-Glen

[Scott Shepherd]

....and as pointed out about 20 times now, it's done by every single machine manufacturer in the world. What are they hiding? Pick the phone up and call and get a quote. Don't like the quote, don't buy the machine. When did it because a "right" to get the lowest price anyone in the world ever got? This isn't Wal-Mart. I don't see any "price matching" promises on anyone's websites. Don't like the price, don't buy it. Seems to me like everyone wants the Ferrari of machine but wants to pay the Chevy prices. If you can't afford a Ferrari, then stop looking at them and go get what you can afford.

Guess who negotiated our laser prices. We did. Because it's OUR BUSINESS. It's not MY responsibility to make sure YOU get a good price.

[matthew knott]

Its not a case of not affording it, its just gauging approximately where the starting price is and being as this forum has a collection of knowledgeable people, what's wrong with asking those same people for a bit of advise? If i see a neighbour with a car and i like it i might ask, where/how much he paid, odds are he would tell me. There is ONE reason that these manufacturers keep prices secret, well lets not say secret, lets say flexible, its so they can flex them in a direction that suit them, fair play to them, its their business. If a group on consumers get organised then they can use this to their advantage, its just the way of the world. Trotec arent giving Sawmill Creek a discount to be nice or out of the goodness of their heart, they rightly recognise its a good place to sell their (excellent) products. Even if someone publishes a price the manufacturer can completely ignore it, they probably wouldnt be that bothered either way if it was published.

[Glen Monaghan]

Doesn't matter how many do it, it's just an effort to take advantage of inexperienced consumers. Nobody said anybody has a "right" to the lowest price anyone ever got (and making pricing information public couldn't accomplish that anyway, any more than it does in any other business where prices are publicly advertised as a matter of course), and nobody mentioned price matching before either. You seem to have an incredible amount of emotion driving your replies (which seem to include a number of off-the-wall and inaccurate/misleading claims about what people are saying or wanting)... did you have some sort of traumatic experience with getting undercut or overcharged?

What people want is to get a better idea of possible prices to aid them in their own negotiations. Nobody is saying it's your responsibility to make sure anyone else gets a good price any more than they are saying it's your responsibility that they figure out how to use CorelDraw or find a supplier of an item or get help with any of the myriad of issues that we discuss here. If you don't want to share your techniques, your knowledge of product sources, or your prior experiences purchasing equipment, that's up to you and no one is trying to take away your right to fatherhood. They just want to be better informed so they can do better business for themselves.

-Glen

[Ronald Erickson]

For me, it boils down to this: equality.


The Creek exists based on the premise that we are all equal here, this is our house that we designed and we operate for the good of our Community.

Censoring pricing information only benefits the manufacturer thus tipping the scales of equality in favor of the manufacturer. It's not the responsibility of The Creek to control pricing information and enforce company policies; that responsibility falls upon the manufacturer.

Manufacturers absolutely have the right to have policies with regards to pricing. However, it is up to the manufacturer to control the flow of information as it it their policy. If a manufacturer decides to create a policy that prohibits the sharing of pricing, then they can put such language in their quotes and purchase agreements. If a manufacturer doesn't provide written notice on the quote or purchase agreement that the information is private, then it isn't "private".

Some on The Creek may argue that it's not their job to help me get the best price, while others reach out with offers of help and extended hands. I fall into the latter group and would willingly help others form a sound decision with regards to their purchases.

Had I not made the pricing post in the first place, seeking pricing information from The Creek, I would not have bought the laser that I did. In all honesty I would have settled on a far less expensive machine. One could argue that by obtaining information from The Creek, the company actually made $10,000 MORE than I would have spent otherwise.

[Scott Shepherd]

Doesn't matter how many do it, it's just an effort to take advantage of inexperienced consumers. Nobody said anybody has a "right" to the lowest price anyone ever got (and making pricing information public couldn't accomplish that anyway, any more than it does in any other business where prices are publicly advertised as a matter of course), and nobody mentioned price matching before either. You seem to have an incredible amount of emotion driving your replies (which seem to include a number of off-the-wall and inaccurate/misleading claims about what people are saying or wanting)... did you have some sort of traumatic experience with getting undercut or overcharged?

What people want is to get a better idea of possible prices to aid them in their own negotiations. Nobody is saying it's your responsibility to make sure anyone else gets a good price any more than they are saying it's your responsibility that they figure out how to use CorelDraw or find a supplier of an item or get help with any of the myriad of issues that we discuss here. If you don't want to share your techniques, your knowledge of product sources, or your prior experiences purchasing equipment, that's up to you and no one is trying to take away your right to fatherhood. They just want to be better informed so they can do better business for themselves.

-Glen

Too funny. Yes, I was price gouged as a child......

I just have a hard time understanding how a practice that's been going on since equipment came up for sale is all of the sudden a crisis mode and we all need to share our pricing information. I've stated repeatedly real life examples, but it's been dismissed repeatedly, even though my experiences are real life examples, and yet there are no real life examples on the other side. It's just odd to me that the Creek has run for a decade now without this being an issue and with 2 posts, it's all a crisis now and it's the evil laser manufacturers putting it to the little guy, when that's not the case.

I've clearly and repeatedly shown how examples of everything else in society has variable pricing around the USA and the world, but to some, if you get varying prices in the laser world, then it's tied to some evil plot to make newbies look stupid. That's insane.

Like I said about 10 times now, I just have a hard time understanding the reasoning on why this is all the sudden a crisis on the forum according to the rhetoric of some. Step into the CNC side of the forum and ask CamMaster owners to start posting their information.

What some fail to understand is that advertising helps keep this place open. PERIOD. If you make it a place where no equipment people want to pay to advertise, then the place goes away. It's all well and good to sit in your office chair and say how you think things ought to be "free and open", but you don't pay the bills here. If you read what Keith said, he said the intent is to make this a community where manufacturers AND end users can come together. He said he doesn't want to create a situation where manufacturers aren't willing to come and participate on the forum. Doing things on here that help the consumer and hurt the manufacturer does nothing but make advertisers leave this place, which means less funding to run the place.

So it's all well and good to speak in your utopia, but this is the real world and in this world, advertisers help pay the bills and it makes zero sense to irritate the advertisers and the risk of making the end users happy. The end results when they don't renew their ad campaigns is this place could disappear.

I know about 2% of that will get read and understood, but it's a much deeper discussion that just pricing of a laser. It maintains this forum that you so freely speak on.

[Keith Outten]

For me, it boils down to this: equality.

Censoring pricing information only benefits the manufacturer thus tipping the scales of equality in favor of the manufacturer. It's not the responsibility of The Creek to control pricing information and enforce company policies; that responsibility falls upon the manufacturer.

Manufacturers absolutely have the right to have policies with regards to pricing. However, it is up to the manufacturer to control the flow of information as it it their policy. If a manufacturer decides to create a policy that prohibits the sharing of pricing, then they can put such language in their quotes and purchase agreements. If a manufacturer doesn't provide written notice on the quote or purchase agreement that the information is private, then it isn't "private".

Some on The Creek may argue that it's not their job to help me get the best price, while others reach out with offers of help and extended hands. I fall into the latter group and would willingly help others form a sound decision with regards to their purchases.

Had I not made the pricing post in the first place, seeking pricing information from The Creek, I would not have bought the laser that I did. In all honesty I would have settled on a far less expensive machine. One could argue that by obtaining information from The Creek, the company actually made $10,000 MORE than I would have spent otherwise.

Ron,

According to our TOS we specifically prohibit public posting of Private Messages here, this policy has been amended to include email.

The contents of Private Messages shall not be posted in any public areas or electronically transmitted via any email system.

I'm sure that most of us would prefer that messages we send to people not be made public, its understood that most communications of this nature are to be kept private between individuals who are participating in a particular conversation. I believe this same ideal applies to communication between customers and vendors whenever at least one of the two has communicated a preference. In the case of non-published prices I think that is a preference toward privacy.

The thought of a conspiracy involving price structure or profit margins is not something I would expect or accuse anyone of promoting without some serious proof of wrongdoing. In the case of laser manufacturers their policies may very well be based on the competitive nature of their market. If you consider the impact that imported machines have had it has to be very difficult to remain profitable in today's market.

I don't believe for one minute that anything sinister is going on, I thinks is all about economic survival.
.

[Martin Boekers]

I don't have a problem with it as long as I can get quote from various distributors that are not in my territory.
If I want to buy a laser from Epilog I have to purchase this laser from my territory distributer. In effect If I believe
this is the best laser on the market, and an East Coast Distributer sells them for $5k less than who I have to buy
from, that's what I have a problem with.

Never been to ARA, is it Dist who show or manufacturers? If I go to Vegas am I buying directly from Epilog or through
a dist. Will all Dist match the quote at a show?

[Ronald Erickson]

For me, it boils down to this: equality.

Censoring pricing information only benefits the manufacturer thus tipping the scales of equality in favor of the manufacturer. It's not the responsibility of The Creek to control pricing information and enforce company policies; that responsibility falls upon the manufacturer.

Manufacturers absolutely have the right to have policies with regards to pricing. However, it is up to the manufacturer to control the flow of information as it it their policy. If a manufacturer decides to create a policy that prohibits the sharing of pricing, then they can put such language in their quotes and purchase agreements. If a manufacturer doesn't provide written notice on the quote or purchase agreement that the information is private, then it isn't "private".

Some on The Creek may argue that it's not their job to help me get the best price, while others reach out with offers of help and extended hands. I fall into the latter group and would willingly help others form a sound decision with regards to their purchases.

Had I not made the pricing post in the first place, seeking pricing information from The Creek, I would not have bought the laser that I did. In all honesty I would have settled on a far less expensive machine. One could argue that by obtaining information from The Creek, the company actually made $10,000 MORE than I would have spent otherwise.

Ron,

According to our TOS we specifically prohibit public posting of Private Messages here, this policy has been amended to include email.

The contents of Private Messages shall not be posted in any public areas or electronically transmitted via any email system.

I'm sure that most of us would prefer that messages we send to people not be made public, its understood that most communications of this nature are to be kept private between individuals who are participating in a particular conversation. I believe this same ideal applies to communication between customers and vendors whenever at least one of the two has communicated a preference. In the case of non-published prices I think that is a preference toward privacy.

The thought of a conspiracy involving price structure or profit margins is not something I would expect or accuse anyone of promoting without some serious proof of wrongdoing. In the case of laser manufacturers their policies may very well be based on the competitive nature of their market. If you consider the impact that imported machines have had it has to be very difficult to remain profitable in today's market.

I don't believe for one minute that anything sinister is going on, I thinks is all about economic survival.
.

:confused: Did you mean to reply to this specific post? I'm confused how the two are related. I spoke not of any conspiracy nor did I share any private mail... :confused:

[Lee DeRaud]

According to our TOS we specifically prohibit public posting of Private Messages here, this policy has been amended to include email.

The contents of Private Messages shall not be posted in any public areas or electronically transmitted via any email system.I understand (and agree with) the spirit of that rule, but the wording is at best awkward. I presume the intent was to also prohibit the posting of the contents of (presumably private) email messages, yes?

Prohibiting the transmission of PMs via (again presumably private) email makes zero sense, given that using the "Forward" function in the PM system violates this. (At least in spirit: I realize the PM system may not technically be an "email system", but it sure looks like one from where I'm standing.)

[Rodne Gold]

I think he was replying to my statement that the secrecy of pricing leads to the perception that something underhand or dodgy is going on. That's a *perception* I have when things are hidden and evasiveness is rife... doesn't mean its true.

[Mark Ross]

Okay, I will start. We have Eiplog 36 EXT's and they gave us $5,000 dollars for taking the machines off their hands. Free machines and 5 grand to boot.

[Rodne Gold]

http://www.signtechnologies.com.au/catalogue/20/8/0/laser-systems/gcc-co2-cutting-a-engraving
A site listing GCC and other laser prices....

[Lee DeRaud]

Hmm...back in '05 when I was buying mine, ULS had the list prices of their systems on their web site. Now it's just the usual contact form.

I've never considered such "call for quote" practices sinister or illegal, just annoying. They always seem to crop up when I'm either (1) doing very preliminary go/no-go research for something big, or (2) trying to buy small quantities of something generic, both things I would rather do without entering into a long-term relationship with a sales rep.

(There's also situation of trying to price software and having to go through a salesperson who knows less about the product than my dog but insists on working through his script, sort of a lower-IQ version of ISP tech support.)

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Okay, I will start. We have Eiplog 36 EXT's and they gave us $5,000 dollars for taking the machines off their hands. Free machines and 5 grand to boot.

Ok, I'll bite...how?