Laser pricing, support, service, trade shows, etc?

[Lynn Holdsworth]

Hi All,
I'm new to the forum, and new to the current technology, though I was a programmer in the laser die-making industry many years ago. I'm considering returning to lasers and in the market for either a new or reasonably new/used laser for art & smalll business applications. I'm looking at the Epilog Mini 24 and have been to a Universal 3.50 demo. I was very impressed with an Epilog/Laserbits Seminar I attended this past weekend. I inquired about Trotec but their sales person seems to have no interest in following up on my inquiry. I understand they have quality machines, but if sales performance is indicative of service, I'm leary at best. I've read about show discounts and Sawmill Creek pricing, but can't seem to find details about either. I've gotten a quote from Epilog, but it seems a bit high. Am I better off waiting to go to a trade show and buying there or perhaps buying used? Any advice regarding the pros and cons, pricing, trade shows, products? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

[Martin Boekers]

This is the major Awards show.

www.aralasvegas.com/ (http://www.aralasvegas.com/)

Trade show you can see all the players at one spot and test machines.
You maybe be able to buy the demo machine there.

The NBM show hits various areas of the USA, it's a much smaller show, but it
also included signage and wearables so it's worth the effort to attend.

Buying a laser is the easy part defining what you what to do and building a business plan around it is the hardest part. :)

[Ross Moshinsky]

1. Stop putting so much weight on what the sales staff does or doesn't do for you. After you have the laser for a month, you'll know probably 70% of what they know and some stuff they don't. It's helpful having a good sales person but at the end of the day, what matters most, is the people in customer service.

2. Trade shows are misleading. Even if you spend an hour at a booth, you're looking at demos that are programmed and ready to run. The steps they go over with you are the same that you could learn reading a PDF user manual. If you want to actually learn about the machines, you need to schedule a demo where you actually try to produce items you want to produce. So if you want to make Christmas ornaments you have to design a few, bring the material you want to make it out of, and see how easy it is to actually produce the items and the quality you get.

3. Pricing is negotiable. Negotiate. The reality is, you can buy an Epilog, Universal, or Trotec and you'll be fine. There is no wrong brand to buy. So that shouldn't be a concern. You just need to do your homework and decide which one is best. I'd personally negotiate with all 3. That way you know exactly where you stand. It might be worth going to a trade show to get a better price but also meet vendors and see products. No matter what, be prepared to negotiate.

[Mike Null]

Trade shows are actually quite enlightening and, in most cases the suppliers will run jobs by request if they have the material and art available. They don't deliberately try to deceive anybody. There's a lot to learn at trade shows besides getting deals on equipment.

There is a real difference in the machines so take a hard look at the performance, construction and software of all. Prices are indeed negotiable.

[Martin Boekers]

Most manufactures will run tests for the type of product you want to produce.

I worked closely with Epilog getting tests done on a veraity of products before
I got into the industry.

Where are you located?

[Walt Langhans]

I've been reading all the threads about getting the best prices on lasers and I have to add my 2 cents. I've spent most of my life in a sales, sales related, or customer service type position. I really really have to agree, that if you not getting good / timely response from the sales force that's not a good sign for the company. The sales people are the front line face of the company and as such represent the company. So if the sales people suck what does that say about the company? One of 2 things, the company sucks OR the company doesn't care if they are represented by people who suck, OR the company doesn't know how to hire / manage people who suck. Any one of those things being true does not instill confidence in me.

Even in this crap economy, you can find good sales people and it's really an employers market so there should be no excuse not to have good people. However, there is the old sales adage, "treat one hundred people right and your lucky if they tell one person, but treat one person badly and your be lucky if they don't tell at least 100 people". So taking that into account we tend to hear more of the negative sales experience than the positive ones. However...

Since I've been on this forum asking about what kind of laser to buy, I have been Private Messaged by 2 different reps for Chinese lasers, rep from Universal, and Trotec so that's one in the plus category. But, other than the Trotec rep watching the boards, I did send them 2 different request for information that went unanswered.

On the other hand, as some one else has pointed out, buying a laser is a business decision and are you not going to buy what's good for your business because the sales people sucked? Very possibly if it's a sign of things to come which it could be. So with that in mind perhaps we have been asking the wrong question, and focusing on the wrong issue. Once you have bought a laser from company 'x' how well has it held up, and how well has that company addressed any issues that you have had? I wouldn't mind hearing some of those stories good or bad.

Regarding negotiation price, yeah that's just the way it so, so if your not good at it I'd be willing to bet that you know some one who is so ask them for there help :)

One last thing for your company reps reading this, stay on top of your sales force they do represent you and perception is reality.

[Scott Shepherd]

I disagree with you Walt. A poor salesman doesn't mean you'll get no response from the company. It also has little to no bearing on the quality of the machine.

Trotec seems to be the whipping boy as of lately, but many forget the countless posts by the poor responses from sales reps from Epilog, Universal, Pinnacle, even the Chinese machines. I recall a post where someone couldn't get a response from Shensui (sp?). So what's that mean? To me? Nothing.

Epilog, Trotec, and Universal will all pick the phone up if you call for support. They will ALL next day air you parts if you have a problem. If all 3 have the same level of support, why do I can who sold it to me? Do you buy a car based on the salesman that happens to be doing nothing when you walk on to the lot? Or do you buy the car you want and the salesman is just the vehicle to get that transaction completed?

There are a few sales reps out there that are awesome and really understand customers and they WANT to be part of the customers life for years after the sale, but those people are few and far between.

I couldn't care less if the sales rep is good or bad. I don't buy sales reps, I buy equipment. The equipment is fully supported by the company. I've seen ZERO indication that a poor rep transfers to the quality of the machine and support you'll get after sales.

[Walt Langhans]

A poor salesman doesn't mean you'll get no response from the company. It also has little to no bearing on the quality of the machine.

I couldn't agree with you more. Which is why I said...


So with that in mind perhaps we have been asking the wrong question, and focusing on the wrong issue. Once you have bought a laser from company 'x' how well has it held up, and how well has that company addressed any issues that you have had?

But... the sales rep is typically the first contact some one has with a company, and most people are going to base a big part of there decision if they are going to do business with a company based on that, and in my opinion companies should have the quality of there sales force just as important as the quality of the machine.

[Scott Shepherd]

But... the sales rep is typically the first contact some one has with a company, and most people are going to base a big part of there decision if they are going to do business with a company based on that, and in my opinion companies should have the quality of there sales force just as important as the quality of the machine.

I don't disagree, but the normal these days is for everyone to cut everything. Back 5 years ago when every sales rep was making $5,000 a pop for selling a machine, you bet the service was great from them. Fast forward to today where factories are selling to the end user, bypassing the sales rep, and then tearing down territories, cutting commissions, etc. and you're left with something far from being the perfect sales model, which is why I put almost zero importance on the sales rep.

[Lynn Holdsworth]

I"m in Plymouth, MA

[Martin Boekers]

I"m in Plymouth, MA

These guys used to do a show in Baltimore, but it seems they don't anymore.


http://thenbmshow.com/upcoming-shows

[Ariel Echevarria]

Lynn,

I am in the same boat looking for lasers. I will say my Epilog sales person is on top of things as far as answering questions. In fact he sent me a new sale they are having through the end of November. I am seriously considering buying a laser from these guys. They have been very patient with me. Good Luck.

[Keith Outten]

You should not be receiving Private Messages from sales people soliciting your business. The exception to this rule is our banner advertisers who provide financial support. Currently both Trotec and GCC are valid advertisers, any other Laser company who is using The Creek to promote their wares is using our resources without permission.

Please report this type of abuse to me or anyone on our Staff.
.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Keith, I did not receive a private message from sales people on here. It was on my personal email and I had inquired about their lasers a few weeks ago.

[Keith Outten]

Thanks Ariel for letting me know.

In the past this has happened and been reported to us so it is good to remind everyone that we need help to keep The Creek presentable and spam free for all to enjoy.
.

[Lynn Holdsworth]

Thanks all for the feedback. I'm leaning toward the Epilog. The sales team has been very helpful and knowledgable. The 2 day training seminar was like an 8 hr. demo. It's a great sales tool! They're also working with me on price. It's still a big nut to crack, but at least they understand where I'm coming from and trying to negotiate reasonably. Trotec never called back. I'll try them again. Universal demo was good, but the distributor is new to the company and they seem to be selling lasers as a sideline. The sales person was delightful and enthusiastic, but I'd feel more comfortable if they had more experience working with Universal.

[Ernie Martinez]

I am a new Laser owner and had the same issue when shopping for a Laser. The Trotec rep was useless and wouldn't return calls, ULS didn't want to negotiate, basically telling me that everyone else sucked and ULS was just worth more. I ended up buying an Epilog after I received a call from the Epilog President, who offered me a great deal. At the end of the day my decision was based on what I read about all the machines, cost/value, AND the buying experience. After 2 months with my Epilog I had a premature laser tube failure but Epilog made it right. I had a new tube the very next morning. So far I am satisfied with their customer service, and the performance of the machine.

[Mark Sipes]

See how we base our decisions of a product by the sales force we have show us/sell us. when in fact we will never see them again.. When I bought my rotary and laser I went to the service center for both. Just like when you go to a dealership to buy a car. The mechanics are the people I want to talk to. The salesman just want a sale and their commision...... Bad mouth the Trotec sales force... but not the machine, unless you have one. Epilog, Universal, Vision, etc we all have our stories...

[Dee Gallo]

See how we base our decisions of a product by the sales force we have show us/sell us. when in fact we will never see them again.. When I bought my rotary and laser I went to the service center for both. Just like when you go to a dealership to buy a car. The mechanics are the people I want to talk to. The salesman just want a sale and their commision...... Bad mouth the Trotec sales force... but not the machine, unless you have one. Epilog, Universal, Vision, etc we all have our stories...

I guess I got lucky with my dealer who also is able to do some service, is willing to help at the drop of a hat and partners with a top notch tech repair guy who can do anything needed (and makes house calls!). Not all dealers are created equal. Not that I've needed tech help very often, but the one or two times have been enough... usually my own fault.

cheers, dee

[Mark Ross]

Here is my two cents and it is for our business and may or may not apply to your business. We have an Epilog 36 EXT 45 Watt and somewhere on here I had a post of old bessie beside her new baby brother, a 36 EXT 75 Watt. I have been on the road for the past two days, just got back and found out that for the foreseeable future, these machines will now be running 2 shifts, 6 days a week, up from 1 shift 6 days a week 10-12 hours.

We joke that our machines print money. If either one of these machines were down for even a day? Oh man...

Do they go down? Absolutely, they are mechanical and electrical, they are going to go down at some point, even with proper routine maintenance (which we never have time to do).

When they do go down, one phone call, the phone rings, I do not get forced to listen to "for habloing in the ol espanyol press dous me amigo" (thanks btw epilog you are an american company after all). Any part or parts I need can be shipped UPS red overnight and quite a few times (until I worked with Epilog and came up with a silly thing known as in house spare parts) they have been.

Is Epilog expensive? It depends, I guarantee there is not a single chinese laser company whose quality and customer service match Epilog. IMHO you get what you pay for and we will continue to support them with more business. I think Bessie and her new baby brother might be getting another sibling soon if the economy keeps doing what it has been.

For some, they have the time and effort to be able to sucessfully implement Chinese lasers. They can give you tips and tricks. Me? I'll be sticking to the 36ext's that are air cooled and take a beating.