Cutting tenons on long parts.

[Bill White]

How do you folks cut tenons on long components? Think table aprons.....
The end aprons are easy enough, but 4' to 6' aprons are not too easy to handle on the TS.
RAS with dado head, router with a jig? This would be a production environment, so reasonable speed is a plus.
They are now being done on a TS, but the process scares the crap outa me.
Bill

[Kent A Bathurst]

I would do it on the TS, with a sled and a dado stack.

If it was not a production qty, I would use the TS and the miter gauge with a standard blade to cut the shoulders, then remove the waste on the BS. Tuning required, usually, and I like my face float for cleaning up the cheeks.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Radial arm saw sure seems to be a winner for this application. With a stop and a good dado head it goes fast. I'm getting ready to put some on the end of some eight foot 4x4 cedar for a gate later this week. Now if the dust collection worked better it would be really good. I've considered rotating the head so it cuts parallel to the table, then using a normal saw glad with vertical and horizontal cuts and fewer flying chips...

[glenn bradley]

I prefer the router with a jig. When parts get big, I leave the parts on the bench and bring the tool to the material.

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[Joe Cowan]

I asked this same question several weeks ago and someone posted this wonderful jig plan, which I used and it was excellent. I highly recommend it for long pieces like you are using. http://www.woodworkingseminars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/WS97_SimpleTenonJig.pdf

[Chris Parks]

Handsaw, 10 minutes and it would be done. Why complicate things.

[Steven Hsieh]

You can get away on 6'

Use support by putting a long board under the pieces your cutting, make it the same thickness as your sled.
or make a bigger sled

[Peter Froh]

I would use the bandsaw.

[Carl Beckett]

For this type of joint I would use the bandsaw, then clean up with a plane (for me it would be the LV skew block, one of my favorites and a shoulder plane). 10 mins sounds about right. If setup and repeating, bet you could get it under 5mins each.

If it gets really long then the handsaw for the first cut.

Getting some decent hand tools and learning how to use them (and sharpen) has changed my approach.

[Jim Matthews]

Handsaw, 10 minutes and it would be done. Why complicate things.

Amen, Reverend.
Those that don't own a well-tuned backsaw might need a little coaching.

The router method listed above really works, but makes a huge mess.
I like carving off the shoulders in one piece, myself.

It's a pervasive problem, and has been discussed here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?105367-Making-Mortise-and-Tenons-on-Long-Boards-Whats-the-best-way) before.

[glenn bradley]

Handsaw, 10 minutes and it would be done. Why complicate things.


Amen, Reverend.
Those that don't own a well-tuned backsaw might need a little coaching.

I for one would enjoy some coaching. I have pull-saws and enjoy them but, have started to get the hankering for a DT and ripping backsaw. Any favorites in the $100 to $150 range?

[Prashun Patel]

You said production environment. My vote is to use a plunge router jig.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I for one would enjoy some coaching. I have pull-saws and enjoy them but, have started to get the hankering for a DT and ripping backsaw. Any favorites in the $100 to $150 range?

I have an Adria tenon saw, and LN dovetail saw, and an LN carcass saw. Love them all.

But - gotta say - I would go with LN because they are very good saws, and for $15 you get sharpening and return shipping. I am not in the spot where I want to work through my sharpening skills - not yet, at least.

[Jim Matthews]

I for one would enjoy some coaching. I have pull-saws and enjoy them but, have started to get the hankering for a DT and ripping backsaw. Any favorites in the $100 to $150 range?

Yes. Our very own Ron Bontz makes excellent saws.
Search the recent classifieds for his address.

His saws equal the fit and finish of the better known makers, at a fraction of the cost.

[Rod Sheridan]

Sliding table shaper.................Rod.

[Kirk Poore]

Tenoner. It's what it's made for.

Kirk

[Frank Drew]

10 minutes per tenon with hand saws is hardly suitable for a production environment, as posited by the OP.

If the proposed production numbers are high enough to justify the added expense of a new machine and the setup time, then Kirk's right that a tenoner fits the bill perfectly. Without one, I like a sliding table saw with a dado head: One setup is all you need and a good dado set cuts very cleanly. I've never tried a shaper with sliding table, but I'm willing to be convinced there, too. You'd need deep cutters for bigger stuff, of course.

[Carl Beckett]

Yes, please share: what does 'production' mean?

Quantity? Cycle time? Equipment budget? Router fixtures aren't quite production either

[Stephen Cherry]

If you want tenons fast, there are plenty of ways to do it. In my opinion they all cut both sides referencing the show face of the board.

Shaper with two discs, board facing down

Table saw with tenon jig with two blades, spaced apart

Table saw with tenon jig with accurately thicknessed board inserted for one cut, removed for the other

Band saw, accurately thicknessed board inserted for one cut, removed for the other

They can all be set up so that the tenon thickness fits just right in the hole. Then a little work with a table saw, hand saw and/or sharp chisel, and it's done. I really do not like messing around with a shoulder plane trying to get each tenon to fit in the hole. Life is too short.

[Jim Neeley]

For a production, I'd use a table saw w/dado bit to hog away most of the wood and finish with the router jig, especially if there's much to remove.

If it had been a single table, I'd use a back saw.

[George Gyulatyan]

I've never tried a shaper with sliding table, but I'm willing to be convinced there, too. You'd need deep cutters for bigger stuff, of course.

Check the video from this (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?192968-Interesting-Euro-Furniture-Manufacturing-Video) thread.

At 3:44 you see a Parveau mortiser in action.
At 7:05 you see tenoning with shaper.

Looks pretty efficient to me.

[Kirk Poore]

Yes, please share: what does 'production' mean?

Quantity? Cycle time? Equipment budget? Router fixtures aren't quite production either

I think this is the key question. Plus there are also quality and size constraints. Tablesaw jigs hold the piece vertically may have issues with overhead obstructions, not to mention keeping very heavy pieces vertical. Shapers have tenon length limits. Tenoners, in my experience, can be easier to set up than others and can make more specialized cuts (copes, etc), but they're sitting there taking up space all the time.

I have some oddball tenon requirements with low rate production (dozens of tenons at a time, not ones or hundreds), and tried hand, bandsaw + RAS, tablesaw + jig, and finally shaper + jig before going to a tenoner. For me, the latter was the winner in production time, quality, and consistency, and second only to hand cutting in setup time.

Kirk

[Frank Drew]

Yes, please share: what does 'production' mean?

Quantity? Cycle time? Equipment budget? Router fixtures aren't quite production either

I take "production", or "a production environment", to mean a commercial operation where time is money (that is, not a hobby shop), and, usually but perhaps not exclusively, multiples rather than one or two offs. The number of workers probably isn't critical to the understanding since a one person shop could qualify if the craftsman needs to get the work out the door in a timely fashion in order to make a living.

Kirk, what tenoner do you have? My objection to table saw with tenon jig is that you need another setup and two more passes to cut the shoulders, and there's the awkwardness with long stock that you mentioned. I think a table saw with dado set is faster to set up than any tenoner I've used, but once set up a two-head tenoner is unmatched in speed of finished cut.

Thanks for the link, George.

[Paul Johnstone]

You say this is a production environment.. I assume this means you do this task often?
Can you domino these? It would be a heck of a lot faster. If you are doing this task often, the domino would pay for itself in time saved pretty quick.

[Kirk Poore]

Kirk, what tenoner do you have? My objection to table saw with tenon jig is that you need another setup and two more passes to cut the shoulders, and there's the awkwardness with long stock that you mentioned. I think a table saw with dado set is faster to set up than any tenoner I've used, but once set up a two-head tenoner is unmatched in speed of finished cut.

Thanks for the link, George.

Frank:

I have a Levi Houston tenoner, circa 1880. It's a restored flat belt, babbitt bearing, sliding table machine, and other than adding a 5 hp motor it's pretty much original. I do low-number production work in my home shop. In fact I was using it tonight. I ran 96 tenons in about an hour, including setup time and rerunning about 20 tenons (I'd forgotten to tighten down part of the table adjustment after the setup).

Kirk

[Mel Fulks]

One of best I've seen. I can here the belts clacking.

[keith micinski]

Other then clearance issues with the ceiling that I dont have I would suggest using a tenoning jig. I just made a 5 foot walnut table yesterday and did the aprons that were 1 inch thick on the tabs saw with the jig and it worked perfect and fast. As far as everyone saying use a stacked dado I often think I must be doing something wrong. I made tenons for years that way and never could get consistent tenons. It always seemed like how hard I was pushing down or the speed of which I pushed it through changed the thickness. Plus even though I have a pretty nice Freud dado stack that leaves a pretty flat bottom there is no comparison to how clean the tenons come out with a tenoning jig compared to a dado stack.

[Frank Drew]

Very nice! Thanks for the picture, Kirk.

[Don Dorn]

Handsaw, 10 minutes and it would be done. Why complicate things.

Me too - quicker than power unless you have a ton of them to do.

[Keith Hankins]

Router set up a jig and go to town. I had to do a lot of bead board with tenons on the end. Set up a fence on the table with a jig, since you need to take them off in a smaller increments since its not a shaper. worked like a charm and the cheeks are nice and clean.