How do I keep Red Cedar, well.....red ?

[dirk martin]

I've got a dock, down by the water (fresh water) that needs boards replacing.
I love the look of red cedar.
It's a low traffic dock, so even tho cedar is soft, that's ok.
This is mainly for looks.

Boards are all sanded, and ready to go down.

I'm looking for a clear finish that will preserve the beautiful red wood, and not allow it to turn that dingey grey all cedar seems to on fences.

I bought a can of this, when I saw it at Menards.
It has a UV protectant, and is clear.
When I opened it, it certainly wasn't clear...kind of a dull brown.
It went ok, kinda clear, but not as clear as shellac.

I tried it on a test piece, and the white streaks in the wood, looked washed out, and dull. Not to my liking.

What do ya'll suggest I use for a dock finish?
Reapplying each year, is fine with me.

[Gary Max]

Short answer----Cedar is going to turn gray unless you want to spend the rest of your life refinishing it every year or two.

[Biff Johnson]

I have used the Penofin brand of penetrating sealer for years on our dock and while the color has faded, it has not greyed in the least.

[dirk martin]

Interesting.
2 replies, and both in direct conflict of each other.

Biff, I'm not familiar with that brand. Is it clear, or does it color the underlying wood?

[dirk martin]

Ok. I did a little research.
Their website is pretty good.
They offer a lot of "flavors" of this stuff.
I'm leaning towards the "Ultra Premium" formula. And, I see they offer it in a "clear" color.
I'll bet this stuff is expensive....

[Biff Johnson]

I think I paid about $30 per gallon last time I used it appx. 2 years ago. For that project, I used the western red color since it was going on Port Orford cedar. It still looks good after rainy Oregon winters! I used the clear on my cedar and doug fir deck about 7 years ago. It has darkened but no greying and I regularly pressure wash. I've used it with a pump sprayer and a brush. Definitely less waste with the brush and it takes a good couple days to really penetrate before you walk on it.

[dirk martin]

Looks like it's about $50/gal these days....

[Biff Johnson]

Looks like it's about $50/gal these days....

Ouch. I haven't used many exterior finishes but I was impressed with this product. FYI our dock is about 20x30 and we coated both sides of the boards, railing and ramps and it took a gallon and a half.

[Tony Joyce]

Eastern Red Cedar will definitely change color. No finish will stop that, maybe slow it down, but not stop.

Tony

[Carl Beckett]

I put another coat on my deck recently. Its a 'mahogany'. Originally I used the Australian Timber Oil (Cabot) product, and very much liked the penetration and depth of color.

However, in most states you can no longer get 'oil' based products such as this. It became quite a maze to sort out the options (personally, I dont at all like solid 'stains' for decks - they peel and flake and are a maintenance nightmare - just imo).

I ended up with a Defy Ultra Deck finish. Its 'pretty' clear - VERY thin ('nano' particles are supposed to penetrate). $50/gallon.

Just check to see when recommendations are made on a product, whether that product is still the same formula. Although they still make the 'Australian Timber Oil' - in a new low VOC compound - it by no means is the same product as previous (same issue with 'Liquid Nails' construction adhesive)

I have no answer for you. Im pretty disappointed with how mine turned out (in part due to already having an oil based product on it makes it very difficult to switch) - but also the richness of the color just isnt possible with a water based product.

[David Helm]

You might as well just suck it up and expect graying. No coating will keep it from happening and having to recoat every year is a pain. Incidently, any Linseed oil based product will feed the algae that actually turns the wood black instead of grey. (I like to use both spellings of gra(e)y when I post). When recoating, to avoid buildup you have to resand regularly too. All this comes with 40+ years of experience with Western Red Cedar in outdoor situations.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree. Just trim off the sap wood and you have a long lasting product ,even without coatings.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Yeah - the "maintain the color" thing is a deal-breaker, in my experience, absent a product with a stain in it, that requires annual or biannual rework.

Howsomever.........I have done outdoor work with WRC. On a few "focus" items, I have used Epifanes. It has an amber tint to it, so the red kinda got lost - even the deep red WRC heartwood turned an amber/golden color. 7 coats, sanding between each coat. Not for the faint of heart - especially for those members of my I Hate Sanding More Than Anything Else Club.

3 years later, looks exactly as it did when it left the shop. It is a marine product, intended for high-end boats, so I will guess - guess - that it will handle foot traffic reasonably well. It seems to me that the stuff I put in - gates + garden entrance - may need a light sanding and one refresher coat in another few years, but that is conjecture at this point, because there is zero degradation in partial-day full sun in Atlanta.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have used the Penofin brand of penetrating sealer for years on our dock and while the color has faded, it has not greyed in the least.


Wish I had a dock...

But I used Penofin on a big gazebo 10 years ago, and it still looks great. The untreated shingles are silver now, the rest is still red.

[Carl Beckett]

Wish I had a dock...

But I used Penofin on a big gazebo 10 years ago, and it still looks great. The untreated shingles are silver now, the rest is still red.

I dont believe these oil based products are available anymore. At least, I wasn't able to purchase it in MA

[Lee Schierer]

I built a western red cedar swing for my in laws about 15 years ago. It sat outside all summer long for the past 15 years and was pretty gray. Last spring I rented a pressure washer to clean my deck and decided to see if I could clean off the swing. Being careful not to get too close where the pressure wold cut the wood, I clean the entire swing in just a few minutes and it looked like new. The gray was completely gone. This swing had been treated once or twice with Thompsons Water seal.

[dirk martin]

You might as well just suck it up and expect graying. No coating will keep it from happening

I don't know why you're saying that, when there's plenty here saying just the oposite....and I don't believe they're lying.
I'm not trying to argue, but what I'm reading is in such conflict.
With 40+ years of experience, you certainly could teach me a lot. But, other here are saying that by using a product like Penofin?

With a wide belt sander, it would only be 1 days work to pop the boards off in a few years, run them thru the sander, recoat, and re-affix.
Having to do that once, per 10 years, and have a beautiful deck, makes a $50 gallon of Penofin sound well worth it.

[Mel Fulks]

These are not laboratory tests .Just different expirences in different states! Even in most of the cases where it did not turn grey ,it changed color.On teak furniture the grey is advertised as beautiful ,but when people see my teak bench they ask me when I'm going to paint it. Guess they didn't see the ads.

[Peter Quinn]

Everybody loves the look of new red cedar. The color, the glow, its radiant. I actually got fairly far into bidding on a formal style fence a few years back with a friend when the client asked us at a meeting "It will keep that lovely warm glow wont it?" They wanted/expected/required a guarantee to the effect. LOL. Walked/ran away from that project. Take it up with mother nature I told them.

Dirk, you have confused what you have been told, there are no contradictions in the information here so far. NOTHING you or anybody else is going to do will keep cedar that lovely warm color its born with. Oil it with a clear, it will get darker (nothing is really clear), then turn black as it grows mold, then turn gray unless you reapply on some regular schedule. Oil it with a pigmented product, it will become what ever garish shade of orange the manufacturer things looks like red cedar, then it will fade, then grey unless you reapply on a regular basis. Leave it alone, it will begin to gray immediately and will be fully so in 6 months to 3 years depending on exposure. Penofin, messmers, timber oil, sikkens cetol, I don't care what you put on it or don't, it won't look like fresh western red cedar, it won't stay that way long, and it will require a lifetime of regular maintenance to keep it looking however it does. Gray/dark is the easiest color to achieve, just do nothing.

They do make a brightener that refreshes the oxidized wood, this works well on cedar, teak , mahogany, most out door woods. The wood turns grey, you apply, wash off, the wood looks new for a while, then it turns gray, you turn gray, you reapply, wash off............etc..........only problem is most of these chemicals don't belong in your lake, so unless you can move the dock inland, washing the deoxidizer off into the water shed is a real poor idea. Again, perennial maintenance. The common factor in any outdoor project is that the giant gaseous ball of flames that keeps us alive also wreaks slow unavoidable havoc on our wooden structures. Ever see the white stuff the life guards put on their noses at the beach? Thats probably the best stuff for out door wood too, a good coat of white stuff. Put a coat of oil on your face and sit in the sun, you will start to look old quick, and so will your wood.

[Ryan Baker]

I used an oil product (with a little stain in it) on cedar I have outside and have been rather amamzed at how well it does hold up. The wood is partly shaded from the weather though, and would definitely gray fairly fast in the full weather. The stuff I have is Olympic I think -- I don't have it here so I can't confirm at the moment. A little bit goes a really long way. I have been working out of the same can for years.

A dock is going to about the harshest environment possible. I would be inclined to say that it is pretty much impossible to keep it from changing color. But the Penofin stuff sounds pretty good. I would be interested to see how it holds up. Marine dealers tend to have all the good products for this sort of thing.

You're likely going to need something oil-based to have a chance. You guys that live in the "green" states may have to take a road trip.

[Ron Kellison]

There's a lot to be said for using a woo d like Brazilian Cherry (sorry, I don't speak Latin), Ipe or another South American decay resistent wood. Some may be darker than cedar, some may be redder but the bottom line is that they last at least as long as cedar. Sure, put a finish on it (I really like most of the stuff made by Epifanes) buut a lot of cahnget it will last without a lot of change in the colour. Contrast that with 1) sanding and refinishing every 2 years; 2) taking gthe boards up, resanding and then refinishing or 3) going grey in the first year or two and staying that way.

Granted, this wood will cost your more initially. But I've learned, over the past 64 years of making mistakes, that the old axiom of buying well initially is much better than buying cheap several times. Not to put too fine a point on it but I enjoy my relaxation time more than my working time. Your mileage may vary...


Best regards,


Ron

[dirk martin]

...NOTHING you or anybody else is going to do will keep cedar that lovely warm color its born with. Oil it with a clear, it will get darker (nothing is really clear), then turn black as it grows mold, then turn gray unless you reapply on some regular schedule. Oil it with a pigmented product, it will become what ever garish shade of orange the manufacturer things looks like red cedar, then it will fade, then grey unless you reapply on a regular basis.

LOL, maybe I read differently than some of the rest of you....because I sure read some differences of opinion in this thread.
Steve Rozmiarek says his gazeebo looks great after 10 years, and is still red, having used Penofin.
I just found a fellow on the next lake, that used Penofin, and his docks look new....after 15 years.
I don't know where all this orange and black mold is, you mention....cuz I sure didn't see any! If "reapplying on a regular basis" is every 10 or 15 years....well, I'm certainly down for that.

I'll try and head over there this weekend again, and snap some pictures.

[David Helm]

LOL, maybe I read differently than some of the rest of you....because I sure read some differences of opinion in this thread.
Steve Rozmiarek says his gazeebo looks great after 10 years, and is still red, having used Penofin.
I just found a fellow on the next lake, that used Penofin, and his docks look new....after 15 years.
I don't know where all this orange and black mold is, you mention....cuz I sure didn't see any! If "reapplying on a regular basis" is every 10 or 15 years....well, I'm certainly down for that.


I'll try and head over there this weekend again, and snap some pictures.


10 to 15 years is the likely life of the WRC. It doesn't have the resins that allowed "old growth" cedar to resist rot. The second growth stuff available (and I live very near the source) just doesn't hold up. This summer, I replaced 1000 square feet of cedar deck with a composite. The deck surface was only 12 years old. South facing, which gets all that sun and in my area, all the wind driven rain. Remember, horizontal surfaces take way more of a beating than vertical.

[Carl Beckett]

LOL, maybe I read differently than some of the rest of you....because I sure read some differences of opinion in this thread.
Steve Rozmiarek says his gazeebo looks great after 10 years, and is still red, having used Penofin.
I just found a fellow on the next lake, that used Penofin, and his docks look new....after 15 years.
I don't know where all this orange and black mold is, you mention....cuz I sure didn't see any! If "reapplying on a regular basis" is every 10 or 15 years....well, I'm certainly down for that.

I'll try and head over there this weekend again, and snap some pictures.

At the risk of sounding redundant..... You might check to be sure you can even buy this product anymore. Checking out the results from a product that Is no longer available could be an exercise in frustration. ( and yes, I have seen oil based finished attract mold.... There are a number of factors at play in how it will perform)

[Peter Quinn]

LOL, maybe I read differently than some of the rest of you....because I sure read some differences of opinion in this thread.
Steve Rozmiarek says his gazeebo looks great after 10 years, and is still red, having used Penofin.
I just found a fellow on the next lake, that used Penofin, and his docks look new....after 15 years.
I don't know where all this orange and black mold is, you mention....cuz I sure didn't see any! If "reapplying on a regular basis" is every 10 or 15 years....well, I'm certainly down for that.

I'll try and head over there this weekend again, and snap some pictures.

It doesn't last 15 years. It doesn't last 10 years. It doesn't last 7 years in the direct sun. A gazebo has a roof, a roof provides a good deal of shade and protection, that might give it a little more legs. I've done a few test pieces of some penofin. Red, yes its red. Maybe like red wood red, not so much like red cedar. More like a bad dye job looks like natural blonde. The most every "red cedar" colored oil looks more like a tangerine to my eye when fresh than actual cedar. And the black, well, oil is organic, it feeds the mildew. Maybe not on a dock in direct sun thankfully, but give it a little shade, it fades to black. I'm not making this stuff up. Ask the guy with the "new looking" dock exacly when was the last time he oiled/stained it.

[Roger Newby]

https://onetimewood.com/

very pricey but long lasting

[Steve Rozmiarek]

http://www.decksdirect.com/penofin?gclid=CIqpgMWs_7ICFU6mPAodLWAATw

Says it prevents mold, and it's not a stain or sealer. Also still on the market. I'm not going to get into the debate of what western red cedar should look like, but I know what I wanted, and what the buyer of the gazebo wanted, and it still matches. I was also wrong, it was 11 years ago I built it.

Yes, a roof will offer some protection, but I live in a pretty extreme climate, 50 degree temp swings are normal, humidity varies from very dry to vary wet. Sometimes in a 48 hour period. Freeze/thaw cycles are brutal here. The gazebo has intricate railings, and other details, not protected by a roof, all look well. It is located at the old folks home in Hemingford, Nebraska, and next time I'm by I will snap a few pics to share with you all.

I really don't care if someone tries Penofin or not, but when I build my wife a wrc gazebo next summer, I will use nothing else.

[Carl Beckett]

I ordered some Penofin. We will see if it ships. ( the last time I tried on amazon they ended up canceling the order)

It does say they changed the formula to comply with VOC regulations ( which means it's NOT the same product as 11 years ago.... ). I hope it comes and I can try another coat on my deck....... ( which at this point is a bit of a mess after having to switch products)

We will see.......

[Rich Engelhardt]

It has a UV protectant, and is clear.
When I opened it, it certainly wasn't clear...kind of a dull brown.
It went ok, kinda clear, but not as clear as shellac.

* UV is addressed three ways:
- UV absorber
- UV reflector
- Ignored

A UV absorber is pigment added to the material in order to absorb the UV rays. Titanium White is the most effective. If that sound like white paint, that's exactly what it is.
As you go down the "reflective scale", different pigments or combinations of pigments - as well as the amount of pigment - will give a varying degree of UV protection.
Stains - which compared to paints - will have less pigment added and be more transparent.

A UV reflector is usually a solid material (very finely ground) added to clear coatings, such as the clear you bought or spar/marine varnish, that breaks up the UV rays inside the coating so they don't directly hit the wood. Most are "bounced around" inside the coating. Since the UV rays are destructive in nature, they quickly take their toll on the clear coating itself and it breaks down rather quickly.

UV can be ignored. Some exterior coatings will concentrate on preservation of the actual wood itself and ignore the "bleaching effect" of UV rays. They allow the wood to be protected from water and other environmental elements and turn color as the UV rays "bleach out" the color.
Clear shellac, NC lacquer and clear acrylic take this approach. They offer no protection from UV - however - the coating itself, since it allows all UV rays to pass through, isn't affected by UV rays either.

Actually - every answer above is 100% true.
UV protection comes from materials (compounds) added to clear coats to reflect or absorb UV rays - or to do both. The amount and quality of the compounds added determine for how long they will last as well as how the material will appear.

A typical lower cost clear, such as Thompson's Water Seal, offers no UV protection, but, will protect the wood against the other elements. It also will weather off quickly (6 months to a year) if it's a direct exposure. In an indirect exposure, such as a deck or porch with a roof, it can last 3 years.

A mid level spar/marine varnish - such as Helmsman - will offer a great deal of UV protection, but, it does this by sacrificing itself to the effects of the UV rays. This greatly decreases it's lifespan on direct exposures. On indirect exposures, it's lifespan isn't too bad - however - it will have somewhat of a dull brown/amber color.

A high quality spar/marine varnish, such as Epiphanes, uses a higher quality additive that's more expensive & that's reflected (no pun intended) in the higher price of the material.

UV rays themselves, being very short length, are also filtered out naturally by the curvature of the Earth and also by water in the atmosphere in the way of clouds.
Wood in Seattle for instance, will have less of the direct exposure to UV than wood in Arizona.

Lastly - the effect of UV on wood is very shallow - usually. The wood itself offers excellent UV absorption. Cherry that's darkened can usually be sanded lightly to "restore" it and cedar which has grayed can usually be "restored" by either sanding or power washing.
Again though,,,,this depends on where and for how long the wood has been exposed.
On my cedar deck, on the South side of the house, here in NE Ohio, I could "restore" the color of mine by pressure washing it every 7 years or so.
I "got away" with putting a coat of Thompson's Water Seal on it every 3 years or so.
The PT wood on my mother in law's covered front West facing front porch and treated with Thompson's, starts to gray at about 2 years. I power wash it and give it another coat every other year.

For a dock, in Wisconsin, that bears the full brunt of the Sun, a semi transparent oil stain will offer the best balance of price/lifespan & ease of maintaining it.
The penalty you'll pay there is that the ST stain isn't clear and will add some color of it's own.
That penalty is offset by the ease of restoring it. Just pressure wash it and recoat it with the same material as needed. My "best guess" would be every other year. Maybe every third year depending on the quality of the ST stain.

Solid stains are more paint than stain. I'd avoid using that @ all.

A marine or spar varnish will last a few years. However...in order to restore the finish, you have to remove the old finish every so often. Since it protects by forming a film over the wood, any break in that film will result in a lot of failure of both UV protection and the coating itself. A small peeling spot in the film can turn into a major sanding/removal project. Plus, a spar/marine varnish, depending on the product, is a high gloss & sometimes slippery when wet type of finish. Not a great idea for a dock.

There are some newer materials ( & variations on older materials) on the market which I'm not familiar with - marine oils.
All wood has some natural oil that protects it from the elements. Some woods - such as Teak - have a lot and others have very little.
Supposedly these products either replace or substitute for the natural oils that are either lost or have weathered off.


Sorry to have to write a novel here, but, I hope it helps clear up some things.



* There is a fourth way UV is addressed.
UV rays can be filtered out.
Filtering UV is usually only done with optical devices though. I'm not aware of any clear coatings out there that do actual UV filtering.
However - it's been a good twenty years since I left the field of paints/coatings, so, I'm not exactly current....
Someone may have come up with a way to do it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Good explanation, Rich. Thanks for taking the time to mine the details.