Engraving Business startup

[Ariel Echevarria]

Hello everyone!
First I want to say that I have been reading a lot of threads in the engraving forum for the last two weeks. I have learned a lot of information that I would have ended up learning the hard way if it wasn't for this thread. I wanted to get more of a discussion going that would answer some of my direct questions and help me validate or make some adjustments. I currently hold a Bachelors in Business Administration and working on my masters. I have 9 years in the military so I know what it is to work hard. I'm not in this for an easy buck, I'm in this to have a future outside of the military and to accomplish my dream to own my own business. So, with out further delay here is my plan.

The two important aspects of any business is Marketing and financing start up costs. I got the idea to start an engraving business after seeing a few demo videos of what lasers and other engravers can do. I thought immediately of the industrial market in this area. Our towns people are poor, majority of them are on some kind of state funded assistance. I know I can't count on the local public to support my business idea. So, I am focusing on the industrial and commercial markets (Hotels, hospitals, restaurants, manufacturers) Right now I do not have any equipment because I do not want to drop thousands on equipment and find out the business is not realistic. So, in the mean time I have been researching and marketing. I've created a web site www dot zipengraving dotcom and have created surveys to send out to the public and businesses in town to get some real target marketing research done. I'm working on direct mail marketing, face book marketing, etc. So, my name is getting out there. One question I have is am I doing this correctly by creating the buzz and getting a feel for the market? Right now, I am in contact with a local engraver in town. When I first contacted them they were a little rash when I told them I wanted to open another engraving shop in town. They told me we had 3 laser engravers in town already to which I replied well there are many Mexican restaurants in town and each one seems to do well. I told them it doesn't matter how many engravers are in town what matters is who is better at it and who can maintain a customer base.
After that email exchange she wrote me back a few hours later offering to sell me some inventory they had extras of, a heat press, and a few other little items because they don't do t shirts anymore. They also asked if I did jewelery engraving because they don't do that either. The more they talked to me the more I could see us being business partners of sorts. I could send work I dont want like Ipod engraving or little knick nacks to them and they could send me jewelery and Tshirt work. Of course, I would do some of that work if it paid well enough but in case I got to much volume I'd have someone to send my overflow work to and Vis a versa.
Let me get into some of the questions I have. First, is it smart to work with another engraver in town when starting up? How can I do projects while not owning a laser right now ( say I get a large client next week)? would it be smart to bring the work to another shop and charge the customer a percentage higher than what the other engraver will do the work for? Also, I have heard a lot of talk about starting with a Dye Sublimation system and a Vinyl plotter, would this be a good idea to start off with and then get a laser when the need calls for it? I've said I am focusing on industrial engraving, would getting clients out of my local area be smart? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I am open to any suggestions. Thanks for your time.

[Mark Sipes]

To start, If you work with another engraver, you are relying on his quality to be your quality...that may be good or bad..... The reason I got in this business is because I knew I could better than the local and get market share by a fast turn around and quality to match... and so far it has worked. Buying someone else equipment is a 2 edge sword. Old equipment is not compatable with newer computers and software, maintenance costs are expected. and tolerances are less accurate....if the equipment was not maintained. A heat press is required for sublimation.....T-shirts are a hard sell in my area. No profit in one shirt vs a sublimated plaque. Hereis a list of places to find business. Local sports Organizations, soccer, lacrosse, football, baseball, basketball, etc....Schools. YMCA, Tennis Clubs, Craft fairs, state/county fairs, horse shows, etc, Auto dealers, Car shows, yatch clubs, Living assistance centers ( Name Tags), hotels, restraunts....etc. Trades..electricians, city maintence, fire/police dept. Tile murals, pet markers, wedding/anniversary gifts,


Heat press, Computer, printers, Sublimation printer (special ink and paper), laser engraver, rotary engraver, plasctic shear, metal shear ( or combo) beveler, corner / hole punch. drill ( buffer ) prill press, cutoff saw

Contact Vendors... JDS (Seattle), Western Trophy (portland), Nova Chrome (Calif) all delivery UPS next day or 2 to your area regular shipping ( one of your highest costs ) go to ARA trade show in Las Vegas (Jan-Feb 2012)

I started with Rotary, added sublimation and then the laser.. I do alot of sublimation.. May be a place to start, inexpensive compared to other options, then a small laser ... rotary is good for baby cups, trophy plates, jewelry ( risk is high)

Lean how to use Coreldraw........ required for sub or laser

That's a good start.. others will add shortly......

Sublimate Coffee Mugs for the miltary units in your area... the army still drinks coffee I think.. and who does'nt need a new coffee mug when they get promoted........ DYA sports moms!

Welcome. I need some Pacific NW support..

[Scott Shepherd]

If I had to start over again, I'd certainly start with $2,000 worth of investment in the dye sub world WAY before buying a laser. You can nice colorful products that your mentioned customer base will use.

Our dye sub paid for itself many times over, and actually one job paid for our heat press ($1,400) and our printer ($450).

I can't say we got that kind of return on our laser when it was first purchased.

If you get into dye sub, and do it right, you can do a lot of things. If during those travels, you find the need for engraved items, you can sub them out or you can weight whether or not it's enough business to justify the investment into a laser. If it fails, you're out $2,000, max. If it succeeds, you'll make great money that you can use to buy other things.

No need for a vinyl plotter at this point.

Just my opinion.

[Steve Clarkson]

Hi Ariel,

Welcome to the Creek! I think it was a wise decision to ask for advice on here before you invested in a laser.

My first piece of advice is "Do not by a laser" right now.

I think you need to better identify the market you want to pursue. If you want to pursue industrial engraving, why would you be doing t-shirts?

Why do you think the other engraver wants to sell you a heat press? Probably because there isn't much money in making t-shirts or it's too competitive. And I'm sure they will send you all their jewelry engraving business.......because you can't engrave precious metals with a CO2 laser.....

Hotels & Hospitals generally need ADA type signage which is better made with a rotary engraver or CNC........but there is good money to made in this market.

Will you have a storefront?

Dye Sub and vinyl plotters are much cheaper than a laser and you will likely be able to generate enogh income to pay for them relatively quickly.

Definitely sub out any laser work you get to someone else until you can get enough income from it to afford buying one.

If you want to partner up with another engraver, do it with one that doesn't have a laser.

If you have so much military experience, pursue that market.......there are a few people on here that make awesome military items.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Thanks for the welcome! I will look into the trade show in vegas since it isn't that far away from where I live (maybe 6 hours). I forgot to mention that I will be starting from home and my wife will be helping me since I do have a full time job. So, it will be more of a family thing. She doesn't have a job and I figured this would be a great way for her to earn a little extra money and have fun doing it. I will have to slowly work the money for these purchases since I am paying for a lot of this start up out of pocket. Hopefully when I get up and running we can discuss some more ideas, techniques, etc.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Thanks for your advice I will most definitely go this direction rather than laser engraving right off the bat. There are a lot of schools, local sports, etc in this area. Do you have a recommendation on the brand of equipment I should be looking at. Keep in mind this is a start up and I'll be paying for a lot of this out of pocket so price vs quality is important.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Steve you hit the nail on the head because I had thought about the reasoning behind them wanting to sell "extra" trophy blanks and their heat press. I took it as them showing their cards before the flop. I looked into CNC engravers but I was not sure what I would need to start up something. I will be working out of the house so a huge industrial cnc will not be realistic. So, to answer your other question I will not be starting off in a storefront. I find that overhead to be a little too much for just starting. I could think of a thousand items that us military folks would love to have that is functional. As far as sub out laser work should i find someone that is not in the local area to do this so I don't create that much more competition within my area for me?

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks for your advice I will most definitely go this direction rather than laser engraving right off the bat. There are a lot of schools, local sports, etc in this area. Do you have a recommendation on the brand of equipment I should be looking at. Keep in mind this is a start up and I'll be paying for a lot of this out of pocket so price vs quality is important.

If it were me, I'd invest in a high quality swing away heat press, like GeoKnight or Hotronics (sp?) (Stay away from clamshell type presses).For the printer, I'd get the $500 package from Conde.com for the Ricoh which is here :

http://www.dyetrans.com/printer.php?webmaincat=printer&websubcat=sg3110dn&mode=systems&nav=systems&title=DyeTrans%20SG%203110DN%20GelJet%20Sublimatio n%20Systems

That's about $1900-$2,000 total. There will be several vendors in Vegas, go check them out.

I say this from experience. We cheaped out on the heat press and ended up buying the good one anyway, so we ended up having to buy two, one crap one and one good one. Save yourself the trouble and start with a good one. On the printer, people have problems with the more expensive models and the less expensive ones seem to do well, plus they are cheap enough to throw in the trash if you do have problems outside the warranty.

$2,000 and you're making name tags and other signs for hotels, restaurants, business, etc.

[Joe Pelonio]

When I think about the engraving businesses that I know of that failed in the first year or two, most have been people that thought they could make a fortune doing custom personalization work, and those with no graphic arts experience. Those that have been most successful added engraving to an existing business to provide more services to existing customers, as well as open their business to new clients. When I was doing signs I used a rotary engraving shop to do my engraving, and I did their vinyl work. Eventually I added the laser because a regular customer was unhappy with his current provider and offered to give me what he said at the time was $3,000/month in wholesale work. While that was overstated by about 1/3, it did pay for the laser and some profits. I soon learned that the best jobs were other sign shops without a laser and industrial customers with regular, large production jobs. Not as fun as custom artistic work but far more profitable. With competition in a small town, and a huge amount of competition already for internet sales, you might consider reaching out a little farther to a bigger city close enough to make deliveries. Even with local competition there, you may be able to provide better service at the same or little better price with lower overhead. In order to do that you will have to prove your ability by bringing in samples and/or pictures of work you have done.
That means additional start up costs, because you will need to spend considerable time working with your equipment and software
to become expert at it before making any money. Alternatively, you get get a job working for someone else doing that work for a year as long as they don't require a non-compete agreement.

[Ariel Echevarria]

If it were me, I'd invest in a high quality swing away heat press, like GeoKnight or Hotronics (sp?) (Stay away from clamshell type presses).For the printer, I'd get the $500 package from Conde.com for the Ricoh which is here :

http://www.dyetrans.com/printer.php?webmaincat=printer&websubcat=sg3110dn&mode=systems&nav=systems&title=DyeTrans%20SG%203110DN%20GelJet%20Sublimatio n%20Systems

That's about $1900-$2,000 total. There will be several vendors in Vegas, go check them out.

So this looks like it comes with ink,printer, and sublimation paper. is there any thing else I would need to add? Mug press? more paper?

[Wes Mitchell]

Just as a side note, I'd be careful with your company/website name... with a name like zipengraving, people will probably assume you can do engraving.

On the sublimation side, make sure you do plenty of research and plan ahead on what items you want to sublimate. The link above was to a Ricoh SG3110, which is a nice little printer, but won't work if you ever want to sublimate something larger than 8.5x14. The Ricoh GX7700 (with the optional bypass tray) can print up to 13x19, but it is a pricier system. The next step up is the Epson 7700 (not to be confused with the Ricoh GX7700 :mad:) which prints onto rolls of 24" paper. Keep in mind that the higher up you go in printer, the lower the ink $/mL goes. Call around and see what kind of package deals you can find and which company/reps you like - that way anytime you have a problem you don't have to dread calling in for help :)

http://www.johnsonplastics.com/desktopsystems.html

[Ariel Echevarria]

I agree that custom art is not where the good business is. I think this is why I was drawn more into the industrial,corporate, and commercial world. Little jobs for 5-20 bucks a shot is not really what I'm aiming for. I'm aiming for Volume and quality of the job. I think I can be very competitive with not having the overhead of a store front and not having to pay monthly installments on equipment right off the bat. I already have a full time job so working for another store would be hard for me to do. I can suggest that to my wife since it will be a joint effort and she can teach me what she learns. The closest cities around me are Medford,OR and Ashland,OR both have colleges, schools, etc. Its about an hour drive to those cities. So, I think the 1900-2000 start up costs are a little understated since like Joe mentioned Id need to make samples, trial and error, buy the coreldraw software which is like 400 bucks. So Id bet 3-4k would be a little more realistic. Thoughts? Comment? I'm the student so school me haha.

[Mark Sipes]

COMPUTER WITH XP OR BETTER, HEAT PRESS, MUG PRESS.. A SET OF INKS WILL PRINT WELL OVER 1000 SHEETS IN FULL COLOR 8 1/2 X 11 AND 8 1/2 X 14 PAPER. YOU WILL NEED SPECIAL METAL THAT IS DESIGNED FOR SUBLIMATION.. SAME AS MUGS, PLASTICS, TILES.....

i WOULS WAIT FOR THE SHOW BUT IN THE MEANTIME. GO 200 MILES AWAY FROM HOME A VISIT SOME TROPHY SHOPS...... THE GOOD ONES WILL SHARE.... BUT YOU CAN SEE.. THEIR QUALITY AND WHAT PRODUCTS ARE ON THE MARKET.. HELL, COME TO TACOMA AND I'LL SHOW YOU ALL THE PROCESSES.....

[Ariel Echevarria]

Just as a side note, I'd be careful with your company/website name... with a name like zipengraving, people will probably assume you can do engraving.

Ah good point about the name. See I had created the website and name before I had found this forum a few weeks ago. So, now that I have been educated in the ways of the sublimation/engraving/sign making Jedis I will need to change some things up. I have not yet registered the business with the state since I wanted to be sure I was going to take the plunge before dropping the money for the articles of incorporation. I will still offer engraving but I would be subbing that business out for the time being until I can buy an engraver. I did want to know if any one knows of a good place to get Coreldraw for a decent price?

[Ariel Echevarria]

Mark, I may take you up on your offer. We were actually just in Portland yesterday so it wouldn't be much longer of a drive. If you can PM me with contact info and some good dates to visit I'll let you know. I know we have a lot of 3 day weekends coming up this month so I may be able to skip town for a day or two to see your operation. Who knows I may need your assistance with over flow work one day and i'd need to know you were equipped for the job haha. (that may not happen for a bit)

[Mark Sipes]

Send me a copy of your business plan.... or at least a note book file that indicates what your marketing stragety, budget, competition, suppliers, supply costs, retail costs, business liceneses. (state/city) types and cost of equipment on the market ( decision matrix) on why you made the decisions you did, overhead, travel, shipping UPS, FEDEX, USPS. account software... or books... The Big Question. "When do you all it quits!" run......Run........RUN !

[Ariel Echevarria]

I will actually put it up here so that people can critique it.

For starters,

Marketing Strategy: My plan for marketing is using a combination of web advertising, face to face meetings with business owners, and other methods like Direct Mail advertising, social media, and as many Free advertising venues that are available. Since this is a start up I will focus on the methods stated before to reach a wide range of potential clients.

Budget: Shoestring as of this moment. This operation is not going to be overnight by any means. I plan to make small investments into the company out of pocket and using profits to re-invest into it. Since I have a full time job I can still work and get a pay check while my wife runs the business at home. So, for now the profit I make will be used to build up the business not my pocket. Once I am at the place I want to be I will start paying myself. I have been in contact with the local SBA and will be applying for SBA loans and of course Veteran and minority business grants/loans.

Competition: In my local area we have 3 engraving shops. All do mainly awards, novelty items, and some engraving. My market aim is not focused on those areas so there really is not a LOT of competition in this area and surrounding areas. Klamath Falls is on the border of California and Oregon so we get a lot of business from small cities in Northern California that have NO engraving/sign making shops.

Suppliers: Right now none because I am still gathering the information I need to make this business a reality. My plan, however, is to use some of the local vendors to eliminate long shipping wait time.

Supply Cost/equipment cost: about 10k initially for equipment, supplies, samples, accounting software, Coreldraw, etc.

Business Licenses: I have the application for an LLC with the state of Oregon in the city of Klamath Falls. I have not submitted yet as I want to get as much info on this business before deciding on moving forward.

Decision Matrix: First, I have always had a entrepreneurs soul, from buying and selling stretch erasers in grade school, to buying and selling items on Ebay ( made good money doing this). I have always wanted to own a business of my own, you know, be your own boss, make your own decisions, etc. I saw a laser engraving demo video and I have been hooked ever since. Watching videos, reading material, getting ideas for products I could make and sell. I want this very bad but I know my wife would kill me if I dropped my full time employment and went after this business full speed. So, we decided that we would do this together. She has a background in medical replacement parts for spines, hips, etc and how those companies work. (She worked for Globus medical as a parts inspector for years). I have experience in Retail, Financials, Reprographics (Autocad) as well as the drive discipline and commitment that I received from the military.

Overhead: I don't have a store front and don't plan to for a while. The only overhead will be the cost of resupply until the business grows more that is.

Travel: I'm not sure what you mean by travel.

Shipping: I offer USPS and UPS since those are the readily available places in town.

Account Software: Quicken Books

If I can't pay off my equipment/supplies and start making profit in the first two to three years I'll have to cut my loses. This is part time for now so it will take a lot to make me quit.

[Scott Shepherd]

Just as a side note, I'd be careful with your company/website name... with a name like zipengraving, people will probably assume you can do engraving.

On the sublimation side, make sure you do plenty of research and plan ahead on what items you want to sublimate. The link above was to a Ricoh SG3110, which is a nice little printer, but won't work if you ever want to sublimate something larger than 8.5x14. The Ricoh GX7700 (with the optional bypass tray) can print up to 13x19, but it is a pricier system. The next step up is the Epson 7700 (not to be confused with the Ricoh GX7700 :mad:) which prints onto rolls of 24" paper. Keep in mind that the higher up you go in printer, the lower the ink $/mL goes. Call around and see what kind of package deals you can find and which company/reps you like - that way anytime you have a problem you don't have to dread calling in for help :)

http://www.johnsonplastics.com/desktopsystems.html

Yes, I did suggest the smaller dye sub printer. We've made a lot of money with our smaller one and we've never once been asked to dye sub anything larger than 8" x 10", but that's just our business. I can't see spending the money for the larger printer to get started. If you can find the work, the small one will pay off quickly and if you have the need and demand for the larger one, the smaller one will make enough to buy the larger one. Otherwise, you buy the larger one and pay a lot more for it and you never had the need for larger work.

Yes Ariel, that's correct, it comes with the printer, paper, and ink. You will need some blanks (name tag blanks, etc. They run .50-.60 cents each, roughly), and whatever else you want to try out. You'll need some heat tape or their dye sub trans spray. Basically, you need to a way to hold the blanks still while you move them to the heat press. Either of those two work and both are cheap. We use both, depending on the application.

We have a mug press, but I'd skip that to start. Mug presses are expensive and it's hard to sell mugs unless you can get to the right market (which we haven't yet). I love dye sub, but honestly, I hate making mugs at this point. Seems like for every order I get, I end up making 3 or 4 of them before I like the finished results. My mug press has yet to pay for itself and it's something you can always add later.

[Ariel Echevarria]

I would more than likely start small for obvious reasons. Plus the wife will be a little more forgiving starting with a $500 dollar machine rather than 1700 bucks. thanks for the blurb about the mugs. all though winter is coming I do not forsee people buying mugs more than what they can get at the store. Also, have any of you tried buying cheap dollar glassware and what not from the dollar or .99 cent store to get some cheap items quickly when your vendor is taking too long?

[Ariel Echevarria]

So, Ive spent part of the day looking at some equipment. I would love some of these cool pieces of equipment with auto this and auto that. I found a press called "Jet Press" on the Geo Knight website that is about $495. Has anyone used these before? Any recommendations on a start up press?

[Mark Sipes]

Depending on what your product line is the platen must be large enough to cover/heat up the area to a temp range to 375-425*. I woul dsuggest at least a 15"x15". If you are going to do tiles you need the platen to be height adjustable 3/4" , plates -2".. you want a good silicon pad for the base 3/8" or so. timer built in .

[Ariel Echevarria]

@Mark Sipes: Ok, thats good to know. I am mainly looking at signage, tiles, etc. I put my "Business Plan" if you want to call it that earlier in the post if you have not seen it yet.

I just ordered Corel Draw X5 for about 50 bucks on Ebay. Its the full suite. Any body have any tips to practice using the software? Also, If I am to do signage you all were saying I would need a CNC machine, whats a good brand and size for doing signage? I've seen a few that are nice and have cool features like an auto braille router.

[Tim Bateson]

I wouldn't rush into DyeSublimation!!!!! Yes, some here have made money with it. Others have done Very well with a laser, vinyl or CNC. Some - very few have done well with a combination of these. The point is most everyone here found their niche, not by original concept, but more by fate. My 2 cents. If you want to go the Sublimation route, buy a decent but not top of the line heat press - mine was around $400 and works great. Then think about Color Laser Toner Transfer (CLTT), a cheap $99 laser printer and a box of Magic Touch paper, you're in business. Dye Sub (in some respects) is better, but much more expensive. If you go that route I would strongly suggest holding off on the printer until you are sure you have a decent business. You can order dye sub printing over the net have it in a day or two, you do the pressing & done. Very low cost. Doing some research, you'll learn that the dye sub inks will clog the printer if not used regularly. That makes it an expensive boat anchor.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Thanks Tim no one even mentioned CLTT. Do you use out sourced Dy sub?

[Chris Edens]

"Marketing Strategy: My plan for marketing is using a combination of web advertising, face to face meetings with business owners, and other methods like Direct Mail advertising, social media, and as many Free advertising venues that are available. Since this is a start up I will focus on the methods stated before to reach a wide range of potential clients. "

I would definitely change this up. Direct mail is very expensive and has a REAL low response rate about 1%-3% is the industry average. Web advertising is great but be sure you select something that will put you in front of your target audience so you are not wasting your money and giving a poor ROI. You mention face to face with business owners. Have you ever done outside sales?

If I were you I would invest heavily into a profesional website that is has SEO at the local level. This will be where most people find you and research your services. Getting a nice site done will probably cost as much as one direct mail campaign.

You really want to understand your target audience and go after it with a laser approach.

[Rodne Gold]

Welcome.
Get to basics..the first question you have to ask yourself is :Why would anyone want to use me over any others in my area..if the answer is cos I'm cheaper..forget it.... you got to be better than anyone else on multiple fronts to get the business.

You really make good money selling a product the laser makes , not the lasering service...jobbing CAN make you some money , but it's fiddly and requires a lot of experience if you doing small jobs on many types of objects and substrates.

I would be suspect of the motives of a competitor having a change of heart and claiming to "help you start up"..if I were selling equipment to a potential competitor , I would be selling em stuff that's not at all profitable or is outdated..wouldn't be doing anything to help em barring offloading my junk..
There is a finite pie of work in your area , you coming along isn't gonna automagically increase the size of that pie. you just gonna slice it thinner and as an existing business , their slice is getting smaller...odd business practice to help a startup that might reduce your slice?

Don't make the mistake thinking your internet advertising and marketing strategy will attract outside markets , once again , in terms of the services you offer--the question "why me?" has to be asked. Internet advertising is not cheap either ..if you want it to be effective...you have to use google adwords..the truly "free" marketing channels are less useful..for EG Facebook or social media is a waste..not one buying decision of mine has been off Facebook etc..all from Google..which costs...

I think you need to refine your plan and focus it..not being rude or nasty , but if you don't you will just be another garage part time operator making less money doing after hour jobs than it's worth. Without having decent capital to invest , just makes things harder.

[Ariel Echevarria]

I agree that a business offering to off load equipment they don't use anymore is suspicious. This is why I have not agreed to anything with them. I will have to disagree about internet marketing not attracting outside markets. Having an online presence is just as important to any marketing strategy as going door to door or having commercials and newspaper ads. This is why a lot of major companies have a facebook, twitter, and other social media accounts. It helps them to connect with their potential customers. Yes, internet marketing is not the end all be all of marketing, but as far as a business just starting out the best way to get your name out there is word of mouth i.e Social Media. As you stated "not one buying decision of mine has been off facebook" This may be true for you but what about other people. Facebook and other social media is a way to attract people to your actual website. I don't know how many times I have seen a company facebook page and took that link to their website to order something (I.e www.dogparkpublishing aka Pit bulls and itty pitties on Facebook). I do have Facebook Ads running which costs me a few bucks a day. Now as far as focusing my plan I have stated I wanted to focus on Commercial, industrial, and markets of that nature. I already know that people in this town do not have the extra cash to do custom jobs consistently which is what the local engravers already do. How will I stand out? Why me? No, not because i'm cheaper by any means but because I am meeting a need that is not being met locally. Most businesses here out source their signage to other cities. I can offer professional quality and faster turn around since they wouldn't need to ship items across the country. As far as why me on outside markets? That has yet to be determined. This is brand new for me so I don't take any advice as rude or nasty I take it in stride because thats how you need to be. Besides what works for some people may not work for others. You can be given a business plan with step by step instructions from someone that is successful and fail because you are in a different market than where that person comes from. So, with all the advice I've been getting I'm taking notes, researching, and deciding based on that, what my next steps will be.

[Rodne Gold]

I think the best chance you have of succesfully competing in the market is to find an area where your creativity is more important than the tool you use , much like these products my company offers :

http://www.tokerbros.co.za/index.php/trophies-and-awards/acrylic-awards/big-custom-acrylic (http://www.tokerbros.co.za/index.php/trophies-and-awards/acrylic-awards/big-custom-acrylic)

You can charge much higher prices than contract type lasering , profit margins are better , you have far less pressure in terms of it eating into your time (a long production run can easily consume your every waking spare hour) and you can mould your product round the tools ability. it's also a lot more interesting and challenging type work than jobbing...

The biggest problem in setting up an engraving service is that one type of machine or technology is not enough these days to attract customers..imagine having a general engineering shop and all you own is a lathe.. you can do some jobs but not offer a full service.

[Scott Shepherd]

I wouldn't rush into DyeSublimation!!!!! Yes, some here have made money with it. Others have done Very well with a laser, vinyl or CNC. Some - very few have done well with a combination of these. The point is most everyone here found their niche, not by original concept, but more by fate. My 2 cents. If you want to go the Sublimation route, buy a decent but not top of the line heat press - mine was around $400 and works great. Then think about Color Laser Toner Transfer (CLTT), a cheap $99 laser printer and a box of Magic Touch paper, you're in business. Dye Sub (in some respects) is better, but much more expensive. If you go that route I would strongly suggest holding off on the printer until you are sure you have a decent business. You can order dye sub printing over the net have it in a day or two, you do the pressing & done. Very low cost. Doing some research, you'll learn that the dye sub inks will clog the printer if not used regularly. That makes it an expensive boat anchor.

I'd disagree with most of that. I've had my CLTT for months now and it's been a huge pain for me. I find the data out there to be all over the board for it. One person says 40 seconds, the factory papers say 60 seconds, tech support says 120 seconds, all for the same thing. I was really excited to get into CLTT, but for me, so far, it's been a disaster. I also don't think dye sub is "much more expensive". The cost of the toner for CLTT is crazy. It makes sawgrass ink look cheap (our toner is going to be about $400 to replace all 4 colors, dye sub is $250 for all 4). Paper for CLTT is .70-.90 cents a sheet, where dye sub paper is about .17 cents a sheet. So I'm not sure where all this extra expense is that's being talked about for dye sub.

I know Mike Null has his dye sub paper printed somewhere else and has good luck with it, but I can't count how many times that would have been in issue for me. Many times when I'll see something I didn't notice on a blank, after it's done. Maybe a defect in the blank, maybe a little bad spot here or there and I need to reprint 1 piece. I'd have no way to do that if I didn't have my own printer. I can recall 1 job about 6 months ago where I printed the same name tag 6 times because of issues. Turns out, ink had transferred to my granite tile that I use to keep them flat while cooling and every time, it would be perfect out the press, I'd put it in between tiles, take it out and it'd have a blue spec on it. Took me 6 tries to figure it out and trace it down.

So far, our CLTT has lost money. I hope to change that very soon, but I know our dye sub has done very well.

We bought a $450 color laser printer. I'm getting roller marks on the CLTT paper. I called to ask for help with that and colors and I was told "you didn't buy the printer from us, so we can't help you". With dye sub, there are so many avenues to get help. With CLTT, there's 1 place and if you don't buy the $650 printer from them, you don't get their driver, or help with anything printer related. That's been my experience. Your experience might be different.

[Mike Null]

Steve

Sorry to hear about your clt problems. I buy my dye sub transfers from mytransfersource.com for about $2 per sheet plus postage. Your toner cartridges will last far longer than dye sub cartridges providing many more images. On my last dye sub order of 93 name tags I had 10% rejects. That is more than I have ever encountered with clt.

Ariel
I am very skeptical that a start up can succeed with dye sub from a home based location. You are unlikely to get any commercial dye sub work and your inks will age before you can use them. The most successful dye sub operations have a retail store and a very broad assortment of products they offer.

Direct mail advertising rarely works for this kind of business. You would be better to spend that money on a good web designer.

[Ernie Martinez]

I'm in the early stages of my engraving business (opend store front last week, bought laser 6 weeks ago). I went in with the same idea as you, start small and from my garage, don't want to do one-sy two-sy jobs, and want to do high volume commercial work.

My impetus to starting was that I lie in a tourist/resort town with tons of gift shops that I can create novelty items for. There is a large number of home builders here which build high end homes, which provides another revenue stream with LaserTiles, then all the hotels need signs, and finally it's a small island and I'm the only guy in town. There are 2 sign shops here but all they can provide is vinyl. Nearest engravers are 30 miles away.

First problem, not enough room in my house, and no respecting hotel engineering manager is going to come to my house to look at samples of my work. So I ended up going with commercial space with a showroom up front and a shop in back. Then first job I get with a large hotel, requires that my lasered materials go on a 1/2" backing, and they can provide a LOT more work, so now I'm buying a CNC router. But I'm currently scrambling to find someone to make my backs.

My Google ads (which is not free) is bringing about 1 call per week, hardly enough to make this worth it. There is no substitue to getting out there and selling. Bottom line you need to spend money to make money. I'm already in about $35k and just starting. I've wasted about $500 in materials learning how to use my laser.

You say you live in a small town, with a poor population, and there are already 3 people offering the same services, thats a BIG red flag. I spent the last 3 years trying to figure out what service I could provide in my area that DIDN'T currently exist.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Thanks for the advice. I already have a website but I have not invested in the SEO as heavily as I should. Since I am paying for a lot out of pocket I can only focus on a few things at a time. Right now thats gathering supplies and equipment. I have not done outside sales before in this type of market. the only thing marketing I have done is what I have learned in my Business degree which you can't replace with actual hands on selling by any means. I've learned some techniques but have never implemented them since my job in the military doesn't really require that I sell things. So, like I said before I'm still learning this whole business and that's why I'm so eager to start and learn from ya'll.

[Mike Null]

It looks to me like you have no knowledge of graphics programs. If that's the case the first thing you should buy is CorelDraw and learn to use it. Your goal of producing professional quality work can't happen unless you have some mastery of a graphics program.

SEO's cost a lot of money that could be better spent on good web design in the first place. Print advertising is generally a waste of money for engravers. Engraving is not an impulse purchase. Yellow pages, though not nearly as important as in the past, could be of some use. But even there I would limit my spending and I wouldn't spend anything until I'm ready to do business.

[Jiten Patel]

Ariel,

everyone has an opinion on what will work and what will not. My advice to you is the following:

1. Know your market: knowing what you want to sell – who are you going to sell it to, how much you think you will be selling it for and the end goal how much will you make. Profit has to take into account your overheads, cost of electricity, materials, marketing, accounts, and above all time. Don’t forget to charge for your time. Lots of businesses go wrong by not charging for their time.

2. Once you figure out the above, find out what you will need to make it happen. You may find that a laser may not be the way to go. On the flip side, you may find it is perfect for you. People who say not to buy a laser and start small etc. have a point. But with the right business plan, it can and will work. It worked for me. Lots of people told me not to buy just a laser –but I did just that. Don’t get me wrong, there are lots of other bits of kit that make my business what it is, but the laser is sitting supreme and it worked out great.

3. Research & budgets – knowing how much you have to play with is a crucial aspect. Allow some leeway but don’t go bankrupt trying to set up. As someone mentioned before me, it takes money to make money. If it didn’t, everyone would be a millionaire. You have to spend, but spend right. Do plenty of R&D as you are doing now and find out as much as you can about what equipment you want/need. Who are your competitors – and what makes them successful. Why would a customer come to you and not them? What is your USP?

4. Design skill – a laser is just a tool. Just like a hammer, just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean you will know how to hit the nail on the head! A laser will put out what you put in, you put in rubbish, and rubbish will come out. You put in some incredible creative things and incredible things will happen. Without a sound knowledge of using graphics packages and having a little bit of design flare, may be a stumbling block. Don’t get me wrong, you can make it work, but having the design skill helps…A LOT! Get yourself on a course and learn it. Spend your spare time coming up with things to hone your skills.

5. Marketing – So you got all the above, you now have a plan and the means to make the plan happen, how do you get out there? Having the greatest product on the planet is all good and well, but if no one knows about it, what good is it?! Google, exhibitions, magazines, word of mouth, local TV, networking and even hiring a PR company as we did can all help. Getting yourself out there and building a name for yourself is probably the toughest part (well we found anyway). But once you have, you will reap the rewards. Marketing doesn't come cheap though, in our first full year of trading, we spend £50, 000 on marketing alone. Did I pee myself a little every time we spent large amount of our own money on these things….hell yes…. did it pay off….hell yes….do I regret it….hell no! Remember spending is easy; spending smart is a lot tougher.

6. Plan for the future – It’s all good and well, knowing what you want to do when you start – but what about after year 1, year 2 and so on. What’s next? Do you know where you will take it? This isn't easy and sometimes doesn’t come straight away. Some people naturally fall into what they do; others have a solid plan and work towards making it happen. We have a 10 year plan in our heads, and we knew where we wanted to be. We broke it down into hundreds of smaller steps and making them happen one by one. So far, so good.

I could go on forever, but know what you want to do and learn how to make it happen. Understand that things do not happen over-night and will require some serious graft. We work 7 days a week, 18 hours a day for the last 2 years and have had maybe 3-4 days off. Above all, enjoy it. Enjoying what you do make it oh so very sweet.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Thanks Jit! Lots of good advice. This is why I wanted to reach out and gather information from the wonderful people on here. I have learned so much in the short time that I have been involved with this forum. I recognize that I'm the student/newbee here so getting all this feedback has been wonderful. I will say at times some of the information has been discouraging, but I know that people are only trying to help me avoid making huge mistakes. Like Mike said was true, I do not consider myself a pro at CorelDraw ( I just bought the software yesterday) and as others have stated I still have not found my niche but I know it will happen eventually. I think the hardest part is that I do not have equipment yet to practice with. Shoot, I'd be happy with donated hand me downs from shops that have out grown smaller equipment just so I can get some experience using it. I know that I'll have set backs and I can deal with those but I don't want to be crushed before even getting out the gate. Some have said to start with dye sub, then some say CLTT, I know that these are just suggestions and the decision is really up to me and what my market has need of. I want to make signs for hotels, hospitals, etc. I can make lists of equipment I need all day long and end up with over 90k worth stuff but what my main focus is, is start up. the other equipment will come later. I was aiming at laser to start becuase its a versitile piece of equipment. Now, that I've read these threads I feel like dye sub is probably the best since I can still make a lot of products with that. I think the more people write on this forum the more i'll be able to take the info and make a smart decision. So, thanks to everyone who has commented so far and given me feedback. Please keep it coming!

[Mike vonBuelow]

My 2 cents:

Besides karma, becoming a SMC contributor also helps ensure you continue to receive quality advice!

[Tim Bateson]

As I stated, some have done very well with what they specialize in, others, not so much. A good Dye Sub printer is worthwhile.... "IF" you have enough business to use it regularly. By going the route Mike Null has, Ariel can test the market and build his business with less expense. If successful, then by all means he should buy they best equipment he can afford.

[Doug Kircher]

Question I have for the OP.....You mention your wife can do this or that....but I have to ask, is she really on board with this? It is a legitimate question. My wife has a day job, occassionaly she helps, but when it comes down to it, it is my business not hers. So you need to confirm that she is really on board with all your grand schemes.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Yes, she is in this with me. My wife does not have a job, not even part time. She has wanted to get jobs here but like others in this economy has had a hard time finding one. Her qualifications are hard to market when the only jobs available are retail and a lot of these retail companies do not want to hire someone that they feel will want more than what they can pay a 17 year old high school student. So yes this is OUR business.

[Ariel Echevarria]

I can see the points you both make. Yes, I want to do the very best I can so if CLTT is what will help determine the market at a lower cost than dye sub then thats great. I think the biggest question is what you all have been saying all along. Is there enough business? In my humble opinion there are 3 High schools, two colleges, Three farm league teams, a military base, hospital, rail road company, multiple Middle schools, YMCA, Soccer leagues, etc in this small town. So, the main thing for me will be to talk to these places but I have to have something to show these people when I try to sell them my services. So yes I think there is enough business. One engraver I know uses the hand engraving which takes them a long time to produce items. One other is trying to sell me items from their supposed overly stocked inventory and the other I have yet to encounter.

[Ariel Echevarria]

And how is that? What are the benefits to being a contributor? Costs? etc? I'm trying to get a business started so money is not in abundance.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Tim,

I went to the site you listed www.mytransfersource.com and the website was down. Any other tips?

[Michael Hunter]

What are the benefits to being a contributor?

Becoming a "Friend of the Creek" gets you lots of hits on your website - which makes Google notice you.

Not sure how many outsiders look at the directory, but just the above makes it worthwhile paying the small fee.

[Tim Bateson]

Tim,

I went to the site you listed www.mytransfersource.com (http://www.mytransfersource.com) and the website was down. Any other tips?

You'll have to give Mike Null credit for this link. It's up now.

[Tim Bateson]

[QUOTE=...SEO's cost a lot of money that could be better spent on good web design in the first place...[/QUOTE]
You can do a lot of the SEO stuff yourself in your spare time. A lot of it isn't technical at all, but it does take time. Spend an hour tonight, an hour next weekend, an hour the following week... This won't get you fully complaint, but every bit you do is well worthwhile. I've never paid for it, but over the past 4-5 years my website has become more and more in-line with SEO. I now find my website at or near the top of most searches. It's a work in progress.

[Jim Good]

Where to go from here? From reading all the responses, here is a suggestion. I agree with Mike Null 100%. Learn CorelDraw. It is your main interface to both your finished laser work as well as your dye sub final graphic. I would sign up with JDS Industries as a dealer so you have access to their CorelDraw templates for plaques and other awards. (Note: You'll need your Tax ID to sign up.) I would import them to your computer system and try laying out some designs.

I would look at sample plaques (the artwork) from JDS, Tropar, and other sites. Try to duplicate them using the CorelDraw templates. Make some designs for dye sub. Make a plaque with graphics such as a photo or some artwork. Heck, go with mytransfersource.com and have Ron make you some transfers. He is a heck of a resource. Use him. See if your "competitor" will allow you to test drive their heat press (at your place) and make some samples. Buy some blank dye sub plaque plates. Use your transfers and make some samples. (Tell Ron what you are transferring and he will make sure to reverse the image if it is needed).

This assignment will help you get good at CorelDraw and also get some transfers at a decent cost, and then make some samples. When you get good at dye sub, make a sample pack of school items. You mentioned multiple middle schools. Make some dye sub mouse pads, clipboards, award plaques, bookmarks, seat cushions, and other items using the school logo. Make some name tags with the school logo. Download the logo from the school website. It will probably be low-resolution. You can have someone here convert it to a vector format (at a small nominal charge) or get Sir William to do it - another good source to know.

Send the package to the school with a letter stating you will contact them in a few days to meet with them to discuss some possible fundraising. Instead of fundraising they may be interested in purchasing some of your sample items in large quantities. Whether you make a lot of sales or not, it gets your name to them and it helps you learn how to produce these items. It's good training!

You have to learn CorelDraw. Learn to cut-and-paste, manipulate the artwork, putting text on a curve, power clipping, etc. Lots to learn and it's amazing how many simple tasks we all do was once a complicated thing to learn!

Also, one other thing. Going LLC involves more paperwork than you probably need to deal with. I would consider going the Sole Proprietorship route. Less paperwork. Less costly, too. At least starting out this seems to be a better route.

I hope this helps. It gives you something tangible to do right now without the financial outlay. A few bucks for transfers and some bucks for dye sub blanks from JDS or other dye sub supplier. Go buy a heating press or at least see if the competitor will let you have it for a week or so to test drive. Did I mention learn CoreldRAW!?! :)

[Mike Null]

When wearing out your shoe leather at schools and colleges in your area be advised that one call is just about the same as no call. Why, well in most schools there are several people responsible for buying. For example, the secretary for name tags, the janitor or maintenance man for signs, each coach for awards, the principal for scholastic awards etc. etc. This is even more true at colleges. A similar thing happens at factories as many departments buy for their own needs. Sometimes, but rarely they'll go through the purchasing dept.

[Doane Buksar]

I live in Grants Pass, not far from K-Falls. If you want to see one of the large Chinese lasers in action, you're welcome to stop by.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Man I wish I would have saw this post about 3 hours ago. We were just in Medford for a Dr Appointment. Next time we are in Medford I'll give you a call or something. I'll add you to my contact/friend list on here so I have your info.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Yes this is very true even in the Air Force. Our base has MANY different shops on base, Military Police, Medical, Services, Contracting...and the list goes on. Each department if you will orders their own items from different vendors all though they have to be partnered with the illustrious GSA. I'll keep this tid bit in mind when targeting the schools and find the contact information for each department head.

[Ariel Echevarria]

I knew you could do SEO work yourself I just need to find a good tutorial online that shows you the proper way to do it. I have lots of spare time to be able to spend an hour or two a night to get this work done. Do you know of any good websites or videos that teach SEO in Laymans terms?

[Ariel Echevarria]

Wow! Jim, you sir, are AWESOME! I appreciate the assignments. This really gives me something I can start doing now to prepare for when its time to go mainstream. I really appreciate your input. I love this forum, I'm glad I found it and I know that by being a contributor it will help me even more. I'm learning years of experience, failures, do's and Dont's all in a short time.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Thanks! and thank you Mr Null. You all have saved me a lot of headache by trying to figure this all out on my own.

[Scott Challoner]

Wow! Jim, you sir, are AWESOME! I appreciate the assignments. This really gives me something I can start doing now to prepare for when its time to go mainstream. I really appreciate your input. I love this forum, I'm glad I found it and I know that by being a contributor it will help me even more. I'm learning years of experience, failures, do's and Dont's all in a short time.
Jim gave you some great advice, but I have to respectfully disagree with one statement. I would definately go with a LLC. The whole point of the LLC is that your liability is limited to your business. If someone gets hurt while conducting business on your property, they can only go after your business and not your personal assets. I don't remember it being very expensive to set up the LLC and, if I remember right, it was filed online without too much hassle. Maybe things are different in other states, but that's what I was advied to do here in WI.

[Ariel Echevarria]

In Oregon it is about $100 to file as an LLC and it is an online process. I initially was going for an LLC because it does exactly what you said. It keeps my personal assets separate from business assets.

[Ariel Echevarria]

So here is an interesting turn of events. I spoke with the woman looking to sell me her heat press over email. I asked some basic questions about the press like brand, size, condition etc. She emailed back saying to just come and take a look and proceeded to ask what equipment I was using. I didn't respond because I felt like she was trying to hold back information and at the same time try to gauge what kind of competition I would be based on my capabilities. Of course, I do not have any equipment right now and I did not want to let her know that. What do you guys think? I'm thinking she is being a little shady. Then at the end of the email she asks if I was interested in a TJet. I'm getting red flags that she is just trying to pawn off equipment that she knows would not make any money. Plus I researched the Tjet. Seemed like it is a waste of money considering it takes over 7 minutes for it to make one shirt. Doesn't sound like it moves fast as a jet. Anyone else have one of these machines?

[Mike Null]

The real question is "do I want to be in the t-shirt business?". I'm getting out of it--it is just too competitive. If I do anymore t-shirts they will be out-sourced at some decent margin or I'll walk away from the order. That is not the same as sublimation which can be done for a minimal investment. Direct to garment printers have a spotty record, some are pretty good others are not. All are expensive.

[Rodne Gold]

I've had a flatbed colour printer which did DTG..a VERY expensive unreliable mistake. I wouldn't touch the smaller non proffesional type machines in that area

[Ross Moshinsky]

I think you need to sit down and run numbers. Theory and marketing is good but you need to figure out your fixed costs. Then you need to figure out how much you want to make a month. Then you need to figure out how much you need to bring in every month to make the numbers work. If your monthly fixed costs are $3000 and you want to make $5000 a month, your sales are going to need to be at least $12,000 a month assuming a conservative 33% material cost. Do you think you stand a chance to bring in $144,000 a year?

[Ariel Echevarria]

To be honest no I do not want to be in the Tshirt business. These days you can order Tshirts for events or whatever online and at a price that would be difficult to compete with. I just wanted to know if anyone had even heard of a Tjet cause I had not until she mentioned it. I think that may be because I've been researching and pricing engravers, lasers, CNC machines, Dye Sub, CLTT, possible products, etc. So Tshirts are not really anything I'm interested in. I did find that there is a Sign shop here in town that I did not know about called Pelican Signs. I think I am going to walk in and see what their operations look like and possibly see if I can do some outsource work for them at a later date.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Agreed! I do not plan on even looking at any kind of Tshirt making machine at this point. right now I am concentrating on other avenues.

[Ariel Echevarria]

Starting from home....heck no. Maybe as the business grows yes. I understand that you are giving me examples, but what you stated about figuring out monthly costs etc is pretty much basic business. Of course, some people do not have any business background so they would not understand that 5k in sales is not 5k in profit. I do not think I will have 3k a month in fixed costs, especially from home. I could see that if I leased a shop, leased 4 or 5 pieces of large equipment,etc but Im not at this point. Right now this is small fries, small steps to work my way up so I can take what ever profit I do make and reinvest into the business. I have a good paying fulltime job right now so I don't have to worry about making a living at this business right off the bat. I have some cushion to be able to build a strong foundation and build up. This is a marathon for me and my wife not a sprint to the finish line. So yes, in time, I do believe that I can pull in 144k a year eventually.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Starting from home....heck no. Maybe as the business grows yes. I understand that you are giving me examples, but what you stated about figuring out monthly costs etc is pretty much basic business. Of course, some people do not have any business background so they would not understand that 5k in sales is not 5k in profit. I do not think I will have 3k a month in fixed costs, especially from home. I could see that if I leased a shop, leased 4 or 5 pieces of large equipment,etc but Im not at this point. Right now this is small fries, small steps to work my way up so I can take what ever profit I do make and reinvest into the business. I have a good paying fulltime job right now so I don't have to worry about making a living at this business right off the bat. I have some cushion to be able to build a strong foundation and build up. This is a marathon for me and my wife not a sprint to the finish line. So yes, in time, I do believe that I can pull in 144k a year eventually.

My biggest suggestion would be not to base your business based on running it out of your home unless your long term goal is to work out of your home. The biggest mistake new business owners make is basing their business plan on their current expenses despite having a real goal/need of expanding in the new future. If the rate of growth doesn't match your rate of expansion, you'll be out of business in that magical 18 month period. That's why you have to pretend like you have real fixed costs and think longer term. If you don't, it's problematic in the future.

[Ariel Echevarria]

I see what you are saying. I think I may have worded what I was saying wrong. I'm always thinking long term. I know that I will eventually need a store front and with that comes a lease $800-1600 a month, water, electricity, insurance, etc etc. So yes I could easily reach 5k a month in fixed expenses in a short period of time. I'm just not there yet. I'm just starting out right now, no equipment, nothing. So I'm focusing on the present while keeping an eye on the future. Everyone keeps saying...well in such and such time you need to be at this level or you WILL FAIL!!!! Truth is its not like that with every one. Some chug along for a few years before hitting that big job that sets them over the top, some get that job in the first 6 months. The bottomline I am trying to say is that I will be working in the present and planning for the future.

[AL Ursich]

Military Market... I am a +1 on getting a Sublimation setup too.... and a +1 on getting a web name that fits.... You will want to be found long after the sale and having a site is the very best way... I have 3 with the 2nd one bringing in 95% of my Business as I show up in a Search on page 1 with the Big Boys just due to the name and lots of pictures of end product... The 3rd site I searched on a whim and found it had expired the previous year and will be "Golden" when I develop that line of Products... And a word of Wisdom on searching for a new name... Be ready to buy it at that time.... I did a search for my first choice in 2007 and wanted to think about it... Next day someone had seen my search and had a "$5K, YOU CAN HAVE THIS NAME..." page... I picked something different...

Sublimation can do a really GREAT Ceramic Tile... Many shapes are avaliable... A Round, Square, or Rectangle would be GREAT inlayed into a PLAQUE with a Full Color Unit Logo... AND Laser Engraved Text..... OR CLTT Text... The CarveWright Forum has some posts with Cribbage Boards that can be designed for a Inlay of a Ceramic Tile. Something I think the Military Market would like.

Stainless Water Bottles can be done in a Oven with a Wrap that holds the Transfer tight to the Bottle... I would believe a big Military Seller... Especially over in the Sand Box... You can do Coffee Cups too with a Wrap... I have a Mug Press but a Wrap is more Flexable... Longer or taller transfers.

As for CLTT, I did some Ceramic Tiles but even with a post bake you could scratch off the print.... Sublimation is dishwasher safe... It gets locked into the Poly pores. I gave up on CLTT.. Many do CLTT on Brass Tags with just a black toner Laser Jet Printer... For Plaques they love them..... That might be a QUICK Moneymaker for you.

Good Luck,

AL

I am retired Navy. Thank YOU for your service.

[Ariel Echevarria]

I see you are from PA. My Wife is from Birdsboro,PA. Anyway, back to the discussion. There are numerous Guard bases in Oregon. I know that my town has one of them. So, I agree that I need to market to the military as well. I've seen ALOT of awards and plaques from trophy shops in town that are hanging up on our wall...some were very poor quality and at times it would be a good 4-7 days of waiting until the plaque was ready for pick up. To me that's unacceptable. I can see 2 days and at the most 3 if you are backed up but these plaques are literally 3 lines of text and most of the time a cheap photo is place in a plastic photo holder and placed on the plaque. VERY cheap looking and I'm sure they were charged a good hefty price for such crud. Right now, I am looking at heat presses and will probably get a few Dye sub sheets printed at mytransfer to try out some ideas. I saw those Mug wraps on the internet. I've seen people not reccomend CactusWraps. Does any one have a good recommendation on these wraps? Also, when you say "Oven" does it have to be a convection oven or can you use a conventional over i.e like the ones in the kitchen.

[Mike Null]

It does not have to be a convection oven. You can buy good wraps from Johnson Plastics and JDS and also Conde among others.

[Ariel Echevarria]

So, since it doesn't have to be a convection oven, I've seen where using an oven that you cook in is not reccommended. Why is that? Either way if I can find a decent convection oven for under a hundred bucks I'll just do that to avoid any issues that could arise.

[AL Ursich]

If you decide to go the Wrap Method then you can use either type of oven for post bake for CLTT to harden the transfered image.

Johnson Plastics is the company that set me up with almost all my equipment and has been outstanding... They have a Forum that is worth a read... Conde has one too I believe.... and another I visit daily is Engraving Etc. a place that taught me Epoxy Doming of Tags, something that has been a good seller.

With Sublimation you can do Photo Dog Tags a big seller in the Sand Box Support Market.... Add a Epoxy Dome and you have a pretty slick product.

Good Luck.

[Rudy Ress]

Al,
Could you post a picture of one of your epoxy domed photo dog tags please. I assume the whole one side with the photo is domed - correct?
Regards Rudy

[Ariel Echevarria]

Yeah I would like to see an example of the domed dog tags as well. I think that would do really well here. Not to profit on the war but I know that families would love a "Dog Tag" with a picture of their deployed loved ones around their necks. I've been able to find decent Convection ovens on Craigslist around my town for 14 bucks. They are not huge but would be big enough to fit about 6 mugs at a time. I'm still trying to get experience with making Dye sub stuff so I think I am going to make some cool coffee mugs for my co-workers with special designs for each person for christmas.

[AL Ursich]

Sorry, I did not take a picture of them but due to the Doming I use some Eyelets and made the hole bigger. The Eyelet prevented the Epoxy from Cracking at the hole with the chain. Like my Fire Tags, I use a Grommet. You can see the Epoxy best on the upper right, I usually only dome the front. With the ID Clip Version the plastic clip doesn't damage the epoxy. My first dog tags chipped from the chain before the eyelet.

AL

[Ariel Echevarria]

Hey everyone! So, I'm playing around with CorelDrawx6. I made an image for a car flag that I think would go well with the students and faculty of OIT (Oregon Institute of Technology). It's my first time trying this. I found a picture of the mascot but when I imported it and tried to make the colors for the flag background i noticed that the mascot picture had a white box. I searched and searched to try and find a way to make the background of that image transparent but couldn't find it. So I took the image into CorelPhoto and used the cut tool to cut the image out and import back into CorelDraw. I notice some of the lines are a little off but I am sure that someone out here can give me some pointers. Here is the image hopefully it comes out ok on here. 243166

[Jim Good]

Ariel,

Give this link a try: White Box (http://www.unleash.com/articles/whitebox/)

Jim

[Ariel Echevarria]

Awesome website Jim! I'm gonna redo the previous design to try this out and do some other stuff for the other schools/Organizations in town.

[Jim Good]

Good deal! There is s lot of good information there. Glad I could help.