A Kenyon Seaton Style Sash Saw I Made

[Chris Griggs]

Hi Folks,

I have completed my first backsaw. I've shaped handles and stuff before, but never made a saw just from parts. The back and plate are from Wenzloff. The saw nuts are Gramercy's. This build was quite a bit more challenging than I had expected, but I learned a lot and am very happy with the end result. Except for the handle material and the filing, the saw is more or less a copy of Wenzloff Seaton Chest sash saw. The plate is 14" long canted, about 2 3/4" at the toe and 3 1/8" at the heal. 12ppi, combo/hybrid filed with 5 degrees of rake and 10 degrees of fleam. It both rips and crosscuts very well. The ripping feels a little less aggressive and biting than a pure rip but it doesn't seem to be ripping slower than a typical rip.

The handle is made from walnut that was cut down on my in-laws property 20 years ago. They had it milled and its just been sitting in their shed, that is until I cam along. There's a bunch of it and they say I can have as much as I want as long I make them something periodically. The wood has worm whole and coloring like no walnut I've used before - I wasn't even sure it was walnut at first since anything I've ever gotten from a hardwood dealer is a deep chocolate brown. However, my in laws swear they remeber the black buts it used to leave on their property and after working with it I'm convinced that they are correct about the species. Also the finish brought out the brown tones a fair bit, and made it look more like walnut - the raw wood is almost gray. Either way its really cool wood and I'm thrilled to have a supply of it. Expect to see at least one more saw ( a 10" dovetail) and any number of future projects made from this stuff.

Thanks to Mike Allen, Ron Bontz, Dave Weaver, George, and those German guys ;) all of whom have either advised me directly or if nothing else inspired me to give this a go. I'm a very happy woodworker today! That said, critical feedback and suggestions for improvement are always welcome!

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[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Great job, Chris! How long is it?

I think this job is moving up the list if I ever actually get the "tool cabinet" up on the wall. . .

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Josh! Its 14" inches - forgot to put that in the original post. Just added it!

[Dave Beauchesne]

Chris:
Very nice indeed! I would be proud of that saw to be sure.

Could the wood be butternut? I have never touched butternut, much less worked it; the give away for walnut ( to me ) is the distinct smell when you cut it - but, butternut being in the same family may have a similar smell.

Regardless, nice job!

Dave Beauchesne

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Dave!

I had initially assumed it was butternut too. I asked my mother-in-law if it was possible, and she said that while they have butternuts on their property she was quite certain that the tree it came from dropped black nuts all over the yard.

Also, having never worked with butternut I looked it up and learned that it is noticeably softer and less dense than walnut. If anything this wood is on the dense and hard side of walnut. It feels heavy for its size when you pick a board up and it's definitely harder to work then the graded walnut one gets from a hardwood dealer. No, I'm fairly certain its not butternut. Could be some other species I'm not aware of, but right now I'm thinking its just from a gnarly walnut tree.

[David Weaver]

Looks good! Love the english pattern handle in the bigger saws, so much nicer to use, esp. with a nice substantial back like that one.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Dave! I love the English patterns too. I'm going to use the early kenyon (http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/e-kenyon-carc.jpg) pattern for the dovetail saw. I'd also like to make a larger 16 or even 18" tenon saw and use the early kenyon sash pattern (http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Early_Kenyon_Sas_4e0a284c1590a.jpg) with the really rounded cheeks and low hang for that one.

[Mike Allen1010]

Congratulations Chris, your saw came out very, very nice! I especially like the smooth flowing lines around the lambs tongue and the clean profiles on the edges of the tote – excellent!


On top of that, saw came out pin straight and the mortises for your saw nuts fit perfectly – are you sure this is your first shop built saw? You're making this look way too easy!


Seriously, thanks for sharing the pictures – very nice!

My prediction for the over/under on the number of additional new saws you build is six. Don't try to fight it, just accept the inevitable now and make space in your till!


All the best, Mike

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Mike for your advice and your very complimentary feedback. No I've never made a backsaw before, but do keep in mind that I didn't post the worst of the practice handles I made in the past year. Getting the plate straight was the hardest part. Here are the mistakes that you can't see.

To get the plate straight I had to do a lot of adjustment on the mortise to get it in line with the saw plate slot... that was by far the hardest part. By the time I got it all in line my mortise for the back was had a big gaping gap, so I went about starting a second handle. Well, because of my frustration over the first it came out worse. So I went back to the first and took a chance on a repair. I cut a thin piece from the same board, glued it into the mortise for that back as a shim and refit the mortise. At first the repair didn't seem very good, but I decided to go ahead and shape the handle to see if that would hide repair better. I was able to hide the repair by cutting the bevels on the side of the front of the handle, so that they transition to the flat lined up right where the glue line was. If you look at the handle from the top and know that the repair is their you can still see it but it's overall quite well hidden. I don't think most people would see it if it wasn't pointed out to them. Most importantly, it doesn't bother me, and which says a lot given how much of perfectionist I can be.

The other big mistake (and lesson learned) that I was thankfully, able to fix, was the placement of the holes for my saw bolts. I used the handle pattern to mark their locations. Well I guess I cut my mortise for the back just a little bit deeper than was intend because the saw back was in the way of the top hole. So what I did was drill that top whole in the plae first, and then used a chainsaw file to elongate it upward, filing out some of the back. Once I got that fit, I seated the sawplate/back in the handle, making sure that when fully seated the saw bolt sat snug up against the top of the elongated whole so there wouldn't be room for movement once the second bolt was installed. I then began drilling the second whole with the saw assembled and the first bolt tightened in place. Once I had a good divot formed that i was confident was properly aligned I disassembled the saw, fished drilling, filed off the burrs, crossed my fingers and reassemble. It worked, what a relief.

So yeah, there were those and other moments where I thought I would need to scrap not only the handle but even at one point the plate. And of course, there are things that I see that I would like to improve upon. Like I said, I learned a lot and with what I learned and I am hopeful that the next build will be worlds easier.


Thanks again Mike!

EDIT: And yes I think you are right about wanting to build more. I'm already planning what I would like to build once I finish the DT saw I have parts for. I'm thinking 2 uber sized 18" tenon saws, both 10ppi, one rip one crosscut. Its not often I would need a saw that big, but there are times when it would sure be nice.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hey Chris, the saw came out very nice. You captured the beauty of the Kenyon shape excellently. I'd say that your saw is a magnificent first one ... way better than my first handle has been, BTW. There's nothing wrong if the spine had to be adapted to make the screws matching. It's a hand made saw so it is quite ok, that you went an individual way to make the parts fit well together. The result counts and that looks straight and good. When we make a fine joinery saw with extreme small cheeks, I have to file the spine every time to get the space for the screws. The function won't be impacted at all.

If I'm allowed to give some advice, than only the one that you might consider to close the grain of open grained wood like walnut. Not only because of the look but also because of the smoother haptics.

The Kenyon dovetail saw that you intend to make now is to my eyes one of the most beautiful saws that was ever made. It's not coincidentially that many saw makers rebuilt this little beauty as e.g. Mike Wenzloff, Tim Hoff, Ed Paik and Ray Gardiner. Pedder and I did one try as well with a handle out of American walnut.

[Chris Griggs]

Thank you very much Klaus. I like the advice to close the grain. I also thought it might look nicer if the worm holes were closed as well. As much as I like think the defects in the wood I used make it look interesting the other part of me wishes I had used defect free wood. I have some nice clear walnut I'm now thinking I might use for the dovetail saw.

How do you recommend filling the pores on something like this? What do you use? Mine has a top coat of shellac so I can easily add some type of pore filler over the finish and then recoat in shellac.

Yours is beautiful!!! Thanks for posting it. I love that handle. You did an amazing job and chose a gorgeous piece of wood! That's how I'm going to try and make mine look.

Thank you again Klaus.

[Archie England]

Chris, Wonderfully done! It's hard to believe you did that good on the first effort--WOW!!!!!

More....more....more....


Archie

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hi Chris,

if there is so much and good work going in a piece of wood like in your saw handle, it deserves to be some wood without defects. That's a matter of personal choice of course.
To close the grain of wood you can use a sealer from the wood turner supplier. Or take some pumice powder combined with shellac. Works fine in many cases. I like to go a slower way by wet sanding the shellac. The wood dust (better wood mudd) itself will fill the pores. It takes a little bit longer since you can wet sand only small areas because the shellac dries quick. But the result will be good. Especially the end grain will get a surface nearly like glass. The long grain gets smooth as well but depending on the wood the wet sanding has to be done twice or even 3 times (e.g. Wenge).

Cheers
Klaus

[Chris Griggs]

If there is so much and good work going in a piece of wood like in your saw handle, it deserves to be some wood without defects. That's a matter of personal choice of course.


Funny, I emailed George to get his feedback and that is near verbatim what he said. While I am very happy with the handle as is, I am tending to agree with you and George that defect free wood may have made for a nicer handle still. I chose that piece of wood for the color, as well as the story (coming from my inlaws), and at the time felt like the defects would make it more interesting. While I do like it a lot, I think for the next handles I will use something clearer.

Anyway, thanks again for the feedback and the info about how you fill the pores.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, Wonderfully done! It's hard to believe you did that good on the first effort--WOW!!!!!

More....more....more....


Archie

Thanks Archie. I think there will likely be several more in the future...

[Archie England]

:)

How about a commissioned piece?

[Chris Griggs]

:)

How about a commissioned piece?

Ha! Yeah right, why would I want to ruin a perfectly enjoyable hobby by trying to make money at it, I don't think so.

However, I'm sure Klaus or Mark Mark Harrel would be happy to oblige.... and you'd get a lot more for your money!

Then again maybe I'd make an exception for you my friend.

Of course I only accept payment in the form of ductile iron (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=48940&cat=1,41182) and manganese bronze (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/viewimage.php?product_id=9877&layout=blank)....

[Archie England]

we can work that out :)