Coping on a tight budget (shaper stuff)

[Stephen Cherry]

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Here are some pictures of my super low buck Delta HD shaper set up to cope. Basically, you have a cutter, sled and fence. The top of the bottom cutter is set to .375 above the plywood. To start, you leave the fence set back, clamp in a piece of wood with backer, make a cut while leaving the wood clamped in place after the cut. Then you slide the fence back and bring the fence up to the cut wood and bolt it down. From then on you slide the wood all the way to the fence, and cut. (Safety stuff omitted for visibility).

Questions? Criticisms? Suggestions for improvement?

One more thing- it works best if you keep it moving pretty fast. At 10,000 rpm, you have plenty of cuts per second, and plenty of power to make the cuts.

[Mel Fulks]

It looks good,and that is the most popular type of system. I prefer to get all the rail material out 5 1/2 inches minimum width. That way I can use the " rub collar" type set up for the copes and do that WITH THE FEEDER. The main benefit is that when you run the sticking you won't have to adjust the spindle height. The sets are usually made so that if alignment is not perfect only a shim under the sticking cutters is needed to make it perfect. I make a shim for each set that needs one and SAVE it. Just easier to go back and forth on set ups. More often than not design changes are being made on kitchens even as they are being built. True around here ,at least. I make a dedicated clamp on fence for copes,and one for sticking. I like to sand the face side of all the material before cutting pieces. The doors can be sanded with orbital and avoid wide belt cross grain scratches. I do wide belt the backs of the doors.

[Stephen Cherry]

Nice tips Mel- Thanks. I'd never heard of coping with the feeder. I also like the idea of sanding before shaping- sounds like you could save a lot of time. So far this winter has 3 kitchens on my "to do" list, so any investment up front in know how will help me down the road.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks. With the rail material wide , and ripped only after coping ,you will occasionally have to replace a rail that twists from being separated from the adjacent piece. IMO "African mahogany" is the worst about that and you actually save money by using only genuine mahogany. If you don't have a rub collar for your set you can order one for about 40$. I rip all the rails (and stiles) 1/16 inch over finish size and " stick off" that material. When I have to stick short pcs I will often tack along pc of plywood to the back sides of a bunch of pcs lined up end to end to keep them under control in the feeder. The 1/16 th offset is part of the dedicated sticking fence. Once I have tapped the fence into its exact position ,testing it with scrap I put a couple pieces of tape on the machine top ,at the back edge of the fence so that if I need to go back and forth between cope and stick I can put stick fence back in exact spot without having to run more test pcs. The "tacking" I mentioned is done with a staple gun.

[Stephen Cherry]

Thanks Mel, great information. I also have an scmi t110 for the pattern cut, and panel raising. It's taken me a few years, but I have put together a pretty nice home shop setup on not a lot of money. I have the rub collar. I'm also working on the setup for the pattern cut on the scmi shaper, still needs a little work.

[Peter Quinn]

I like it. Never occurred to me to put something between me and the cutter! :rolleyes: Looks like a home made weaver set up, good safety points, and the results look great. I am wondering where the chips go.

As usual I'm going to run the opposite direction from Mel's thinking, and say I'd rather use my foot as a backer block than rip wide stock in half after coping. Maple, sapele, Kahya, some walnut, some white oak, lots of boards are not going to take kindly to being split, and I'm not taking the risk with a piece of material I've already put that much work into. So for me its ripped 1/16" over final width, often sanded two faces, and cut to finished length before coping. With a sled you can cope almost any width easily, with a rub collar on a 4" freeborn set you can still pass down to maybe 2 1/4" freehand with a t square, or a push block with a top plate. You could run a continuous fence too, like a poor mans aigner set up. Anything to avoid coping wide stock or splits.

Hey, did that shaper come in an orange jump suit? It looks familiar............post office photo maybe?

[Stephen Cherry]

The chips go wherever it is that they go. (Just joking, I'm thinking about a hood) How would it be to rip, then glue a piece of paper between boards, then cope for short boards?

Also, I know that a lot of people like to restore these machines, I like to keep the patina though.



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[Mel Fulks]

I'm certainly in the minority on this ,but many have changed their minds after seeing how well this works,especially for those who have only one shaper. Since he has two shapers he has options. To me the consistency of the joint fit is more accurate with the unvarying pressure of the feeder. They will go together so flush,finish sanding is easy! He is already ahead of most in seeing that face down is best and that indeed that is the way they were designed to be used. But most around here run them face up! It is seldom that there is any problem with the rails, after all cabinet door rails usually just are not very big. Never used sapele,isn't that one of those substitutes? And the method is the same as that used in sash making. Some of your bars will not be straight enough to use, no big deal. I don't try to put too fine a point on the rail count. I use all short cut offs,knotty pcs,etc.that have been sitting around and routinely run extras on the shorter rails. And he already has the rub collar.Stephen if you try this and you get a little dip in the ends from from the collar just speed up the feeder. Good luck ,and please let us know how it goes. Hey Peter, I do like your idea on that multi purpose club!

[Stephen Cherry]

He is already ahead of most in seeing that face down is best and that indeed that is the way they were designed to be used. But most around here run them face up!

Mel, in my opinion that is one of the fundamentals of woodworking- the show face of the wood is the reference surface. That way any inconsistencies in thickness show up where they matter least. I like the idea of using the feeder to cope, I'm going to think about that, particularly if I ever do two sided doors.

[Peter Quinn]

One problem with the feeder for end grain is the distance between centers of the wheels on most 3 wheel feeders is around 6" on out feed, maybe 5" on the infeed. That's a difference of 11" from first to last wheel. So a narrow piece will try to bob up and down as it engages each new wheel. Just enough to cause problems. A track feeder solves that problem. Another solution we've used is to gang multiples and use a carriage that rides above the work, this requires identical lengths for each group and a continuous fence. The setup time suggests a certain volume of parts below which it's a lot of set up time for the return. Anything under 20 units, I prefer the sled. Positive down pressure, good backer, easy set up with a set of blocks. I just sold my favorite sled with a delta shaper, it's time to make another, if you don't mind Stephen I may incorporate some aspects of yours into the next one!

[J.R. Rutter]

That setup looks good, and is working for you. Here is my 2 cents:

You can pretty easily tweak this setup to cut rails and stiles on the same shaper, without moving the spindle at all. Stack with the sticking set underneath and the cope set on top. Raise your coping end stop and your sled. Build the sled with a clearance slot to be able to have an outboard (or trap) fence running underneath it. All you need to do to switch between cope and stick is pull the sled off, and swing the feeder into position. You can also just set this up on the back side of the shaper, but space can get tight with normal diameter cutters.

I'm one of those people that prefer to run stock face up so that I can clearly spot any trouble that was missed during crosscutting. Sometimes, parts can get stacked upside-down, so that maybe a little sap wood is on the bottom. If you go straight to shaping face down, you will miss that unless you examine every part on both sides. I'm not saying that one way is better, but I have been burnt enough times finding defects on the face of finished doors (or during assembly if I'm lucky), that this little bit of extra insurance is worth it to me. I've never had issues with alignment. If you start with stock that is all the same thickness, there is no problem. Show face reference surfaces are a good idea. But for production runs, I like to see that face multiple times along the way. For me a thickness difference on the back side is still a defect.

[Stephen Cherry]

if you don't mind Stephen I may incorporate some aspects of yours into the next one!

Mind?, I don't think that there is one element of this setup that is not "borrowed" already.

[Stephen Cherry]

That setup looks good, and is working for you. Here is my 2 cents:

You can pretty easily tweak this setup to cut rails and stiles on the same shaper, without moving the spindle at all. Stack with the sticking set underneath and the cope set on top. Raise your coping end stop and your sled. Build the sled with a clearance slot to be able to have an outboard (or trap) fence running underneath it. All you need to do to switch between cope and stick is pull the sled off, and swing the feeder into position. You can also just set this up on the back side of the shaper, but space can get tight with normal diameter cutters.

I'm one of those people that prefer to run stock face up so that I can clearly spot any trouble that was missed during crosscutting. Sometimes, parts can get stacked upside-down, so that maybe a little sap wood is on the bottom. If you go straight to shaping face down, you will miss that unless you examine every part on both sides. I'm not saying that one way is better, but I have been burnt enough times finding defects on the face of finished doors (or during assembly if I'm lucky), that this little bit of extra insurance is worth it to me. I've never had issues with alignment. If you start with stock that is all the same thickness, there is no problem. Show face reference surfaces are a good idea. But for production runs, I like to see that face multiple times along the way. For me a thickness difference on the back side is still a defect.

JR- I've been thinking about using one shaper for both. I've been working on a pattern cutting setup where the whole setup is on a peice of plywood and references the miter slot for position of the jig. I was going to use my scmi shaper, but with the new spindle in this machine, it may be perfectly fine for this. Thanks for the information on the face up advantages, also.

[Mel Fulks]

Wheel spacing varies some but I have not see a feeder that I can not get a pc 5 1/2 inches wide to feed well. I leave the material as wide as can make it parallel . That means many pieces will be coped at wider widths.I don't see how coping one rail at a time slowly is better than running two to four with the feeder on a fast speed.

[Mel Fulks]

A thickness difference on the back is certainly better than a difference on the front ! Planing and sanding the material prior to sizing does not mean the pieces are all the same thickness. The sanding saves labor later but pretty much insures the pieces are different thicknesses. Face down means the door will be flush on the front . My guess is you sand your doors with a wide belt on both sides,that makes the door flush. How does the sander fix the inevitable mis-aligned corners and crack showing in some places between panels and frames? There is no excuse for employees not knowing up from down. If you ever have a shaper injury,IMO you might have some increased liability by your method. The catalogs and specs say the sets are designed to be used face down ,counter clockwise rotation. I am not saying it could CAUSE an injury.

[Jeff Duncan]

The beauty of woodworking is there are almost always several ways to go about making something. Instead of commenting on other ways, I'll tell you how I do mine and you can judge for yourself.

First off I run all my sticking cuts. I use an outboard fence and run face down just in case there are any oops pieces. Doing the stiles this way ensures every one is the exact same width and same face. Also it allows me to pick the straightest stock for the stiles and set any pieces that are off a little aside for the rails. Then once I have my stack of parts done I setup for coping. I don't use separate shapers as I don't find the need to. I always have a bit of extra stock in case I need to go back and run a couple extra rails anyway. I use a coping sled which rides against the fence. It features a fence that is fixed, a backer that is adjustable and held in place with a toggle clamp, and another toggle clamp for the piece. The reason I prefer this to a setup referenced off a bearing is it's fool proof. I set up for a cope that removes the full profile + 1/32" on each cut. This may be tougher for some as you have to remember to size all your rails +1/16", but I find the advantages of a full cut + to be worth it. Additionally with my coping setup I've coped rails as short as 2-1/2" long which can be difficult or impossible with the other ways. And lastly with this technique the copes are the last step, so if something goes wrong you can go back to the shaper and make additional rails easily as it's still setup;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

I'm pretty sure all the rub collars matched to a set by catalog number remove full cut PLUS. At the least I have never seen any that didn't .

[joe milana]

The beauty of woodworking is there are almost always several ways to go about making something. Instead of commenting on other ways, I'll tell you how I do mine and you can judge for yourself.

First off I run all my sticking cuts. I use an outboard fence and run face down just in case there are any oops pieces. Doing the stiles this way ensures every one is the exact same width and same face. Also it allows me to pick the straightest stock for the stiles and set any pieces that are off a little aside for the rails. Then once I have my stack of parts done I setup for coping. I don't use separate shapers as I don't find the need to. I always have a bit of extra stock in case I need to go back and run a couple extra rails anyway. I use a coping sled which rides against the fence. It features a fence that is fixed, a backer that is adjustable and held in place with a toggle clamp, and another toggle clamp for the piece. The reason I prefer this to a setup referenced off a bearing is it's fool proof. I set up for a cope that removes the full profile + 1/32" on each cut. This may be tougher for some as you have to remember to size all your rails +1/16", but I find the advantages of a full cut + to be worth it. Additionally with my coping setup I've coped rails as short as 2-1/2" long which can be difficult or impossible with the other ways. And lastly with this technique the copes are the last step, so if something goes wrong you can go back to the shaper and make additional rails easily as it's still setup;)

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff, how do you prevent blowout on the profiled side of your rails when coping?

[Jeff Duncan]

Joe, good question, I forgot to include that step! So when I set up the cope cutters I take a first pass on some scrap without changing the spindle height. This gives me a profile to use as a backer. Now I cut a couple pieces to about 1-1/4" x 8" +/- long for the backer strips. I raise my cope cutters up to match the piece on top of the sled and run my copes in two passes. The first pass is against the profiled backer so the rails profile slips right into the backer and prevents blowout. Second pass I flip the backer for the back/flat side and run all the other end of the rails.

I'll see if I can get a pic or 2 and post them later....

JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

Ok here's a couple pics of my sled and you can see the profiled backer too
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2685.jpg

and with a small rail ready to go...
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2686.jpg

JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

Ok here's a couple pics of my sled and you can see the profiled backer too


and with a small rail ready to go...


JeffD

Nice- How do you get the fence set up?

[J.R. Rutter]

A thickness difference on the back is certainly better than a difference on the front ! Planing and sanding the material prior to sizing does not mean the pieces are all the same thickness. The sanding saves labor later but pretty much insures the pieces are different thicknesses. Face down means the door will be flush on the front . My guess is you sand your doors with a wide belt on both sides,that makes the door flush. How does the sander fix the inevitable mis-aligned corners and crack showing in some places between panels and frames? There is no excuse for employees not knowing up from down. If you ever have a shaper injury,IMO you might have some increased liability by your method. The catalogs and specs say the sets are designed to be used face down ,counter clockwise rotation. I am not saying it could CAUSE an injury.

You have a good process, and there is plenty of room to do things and still be "correct," but I just want to address a few things.

First, the only way that parts in my shop are not the same thickness is if they are scant going into the process and the final planer pass (top moulder head in my case) does not take a full cut all along the piece. If your equipment is set up properly, and your process is standardized and repeatable, then I don't see what the issue is in getting uniform thickness on parts. I do agree that if you do have thickness variation, then running face down is better because you can keep full profile depth from the face.

I do wide belt sand finished doors (0.020" removed from each face, on average), but that is irrelevant to having the groove and profile line up. As long as you reference from the same side of all parts, the groove and profile will be spaced a set distance from either the front or the back. So, no misaligned corners as long as your tables are free of chips that can get under a part and throw the alignment off, which would still happen if you ran them face down. So the point is to be consistent in what face you use as a reference.

Believe me, there is always an excuse for employees mixing up front/back. I have heard a lot of them! If they (or you) have to look at every face by default, then they will hopefully catch errors more easily.

My cutters are designed to run face up CCW. I know that this might not matter for this forum, unless you are specifying cutters made just for you, but I think that any manufacturer that sells a reversing shaper would say that it does not matter which way you spin a cutterhead. My process is very close to what JeffD explained. I do most all sticking last though. My cope sled can hold 2 or 3 rails at a time with individual pneumatic clamps, but for short rails, I do make a profiled backer and cope last.

Hope this helps explain where I'm coming from.

PS - if it has a bearing or rub collar, then some part of the profile is not getting cut. The ends of the stub tenons, if you are doing coping.

[Jeff Duncan]

Fence setup is a bit finicky on initial setup....then quick and easy for future runs. I set up so that the sled runs against the face of the fences. I move the fence back gradually until I get a full profile cut in the backer piece. Once I've got that I fine tune it back another 32nd"...(this part is actually quite easy if you have a fence with fine adjusting). If you look at the second pic down you'll see the gap between the rail and backer and the fence. So you know it's right if you set a rail up against the fence, cut it, pull it back to the fence and see the gap as pictured. Too much gap means too much cut, if no gap.....not enough cut.

So once you've done it the first time you use the sled to set it up. I use Freeborn sets and they're tall enough that when I run my sled it cuts out a rabbet maybe 3/8" below the top of the sled. All the copes regardless of profile have the same diameter of bottom cutter. So when I set up another profile I run the sled flush up against that bottom cutter, pull the fence out to it and voila!....ready to cut!

I hope this all makes sense! It's actually quite an easy and accurate way to make the parts, just not sure how easy and accurate my explanation is:o

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

PS - if it has a bearing or rub collar, then some part of the profile is not getting cut. The ends of the stub tenons, if you are doing coping.

I was scratching my head on this one too. Where is that bearing? Not sure I have ever seen a bearing rub collar less than 1/2" height, but the stub tenon on most cabinet doors is 1/4" , maybe a bit more on some euro insert sets. The freeborn sets I've used all had a steel spacer in the middle (cabinet sets), maybe schmidt too? dont honestly remember. You can rub off of that, it darkens the ends of the stub and lets you know its working! The passage/entry door sets have a center cutter so you can make a full cut, but still, no rub collar. Where does the collar go without a template Mel?

I could see one on an entry door stack. I know there are lots of ways to do this, its just that the way I learned it is best......:rolleyes:.....tongue deep in cheek. kidding. not serious. It is cool to see all the different ways that people have developed in different shops to get this done.

[Mel Fulks]

Face up counter clock is available usually by custom order only.The fact that I have seen all " sets cut face down cc " on every page of some catalogs makes think they believe it is a prudent liability nessesity.I stand by what I have said before ,all info from mfg has liability as their first concern. There are some informational things that you NEED that they WILL NOT provide. I even asked forum management if we could provide some of it here. Haven't gotten an answer. I'm sure the quality of your machines is as good as can be had. We are primarily providing requested info to someone at a very different stage in business development than yours. There is no way for HIM to get a perfectly flush front without running the face side down. Shapers need to be run clockwise at times,but that means some kind of lock nut or slotted washer must be used. That is why face down is standard. You are right about some portion of the end not being cut when using rub collars but I thought he was talking about the surfaces that show,as I have seen some set ups where they attempted to cope without removing any wood at the end of the face shoulder.That always seems to translate to the joint not pulling up tightly. For a small shop there is no better way to minimize sanding time than ,sand material face,run parts face down,orbital sand after glue up . If the back is sanded in a way that leaves some scratches it is usually not something the customers ever notice.

[Mel Fulks]

It's not a ball bearing its just one of those solid "rub bearings" about a quarter inch tall that rides on the stub tenon,they burn some but at fast feed speed it works fine .Seem to have been more popular in the past . Most sold separately now.