Flattening waterstones

[Brian Deakin]

I am considering purchasing a diamond stone to flatten my Norton waterstones.I have a 250,1000,4000 and 8000 stones

My understanding is to use a course or very coarse diamond stone


Can anyone please advise/comment

Further can anyone advise which diamond stone to purchase


regards Brian

[Jim Matthews]

I use the Norton Flattening (http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Flattening-Stone-Waterstones-plastic/dp/B00067ZSJ0/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1349610896&sr=1-1&keywords=norton+flattening+stone) stone.

I start with my FINEst waterstone and progress to the coarsest.
This way, any slurry left on the flattening stone is finer than the waterstone at hand.

If you wash the flattening stone between the different grits of waterstones, you can proceed as you like.

[Peter Quinn]

I can't advise on the diamond stones for flattening, never tried it, but I like these Japanese stone fixers the best. I have a norton too, but is one cuts maybe 3 times faster and leaves a better surface.

http://korin.com/Suiheikun-Large?sc=27&category=280111

[Nelson Howe]

Do a search in neanderthal haven. You'll find mountains of info there.

Nelson

[Stephen Cherry]

I use a diamond stone to flatten my spyderco ceramic stone. If it can cut ceramic, it would cut waterstone like butter.

[Chad Bender]

I have a small (8x10) granite reference plate ($25). Combine that with some course wet/dry sandpaper from the auto parts store and I can flatten my Norton stones in just a few minutes very inexpensively. If you can't find a plate, you can use a big tile; won't be perfect, but likely good enough.

As Nelson noted, there was a large thread about this topic just last week in the Neanderthal forum.

[Myk Rian]

I've used my belt sander.

[Jay Park]

I have a small (8x10) granite reference plate ($25). Combine that with some course wet/dry sandpaper from the auto parts store and I can flatten my Norton stones in just a few minutes very inexpensively. If you can't find a plate, you can use a big tile; won't be perfect, but likely good enough.

As Nelson noted, there was a large thread about this topic just last week in the Neanderthal forum.

Good tip,

Another was to go is get a DMT Dia Sharp D8XX. It's good at rough sharpening, plus flattening stones

[Steven Hsieh]

I have used Naniwa flattening stone, japanwoodworker's flattening stone. The problem with these stones they stay flat when they are new. But they will need to be flatten.
I now use DMT coarse. It it pretty darn flat.. I find that it takes too much on my naniwa water stone. I would recommend getting the fine plate.

[Steve Friedman]

I start with my FINEst waterstone and progress to the coarsest.
This way, any slurry left on the flattening stone is finer than the waterstone at hand.

I'm not an expert, but I think I recall reading this to be a bad idea. I use diamond plates to flatten and rinse between each stone, but the theory is that the small grit particles that you get from sharpening the fine stone will clog the pores of the coarser stones. The reverse is not as bad, since the larger grit particles will not clog the pores of the finer stone. The only danger is if the larger grit particles embed in the finer stone, which is why I think it is safer to rinse between stones.

Steve

[Mike Henderson]

I use the Norton Flattening (http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Flattening-Stone-Waterstones-plastic/dp/B00067ZSJ0/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1349610896&sr=1-1&keywords=norton+flattening+stone) stone.

I start with my FINEst waterstone and progress to the coarsest.
This way, any slurry left on the flattening stone is finer than the waterstone at hand.

If you wash the flattening stone between the different grits of waterstones, you can proceed as you like.
My experience with the Norton Flattening stone is that it's useless. The problem is that the flattening stone has to be kept flat and it gets out of flat pretty quickly. I was working with another guy and I was going crazy trying to sharpen some plane blades. He handed me a DMT diamond plate and I discovered that my water stones were out of flat because my Norton Flattening Stone was no longer flat.

I threw the Norton Flattening stone away and immediately went and bought a DMT coarse/extra coarse diamond plate and have used that ever since - with excellent results.

Mike

[And just to add to my comments, you cannot guarantee a flat surface by rubbing two stones together. All you'll get is two conforming surfaces, usually one convex and the other concave. If you search, you'll find that you need three surfaces, and you need to rotate between the surfaces in a certain sequence, to guarantee a flat surface.]

[ian maybury]

There's a 400grit 'economy' diamond plate made by a Japanese company called Atoma http://www.fine-tools.com/diasharpener.html that's widely regarded by the guys that have done a lot of sharpening as good for flattening waterstones - I've just bought one but haven't used it yet. It's reckoned to be advisable to seal the edge with a line of a clear lacquer to prevent the possibility of corrosion.

Some of the DMT plates seem to draw some flak for not being all that flat, others do very well with them. The trick seems to be to buy in a shop, and to pick one that's flat.

It's been said that very coarse waterstones (120 and the like) are hard on diamond plates, but how much of an issue that may be I don't know..

ian

[Buck Williams]

The Wood Whisperer has a video that is up on it's front page, that recommends a 220 grit diamond stone. The thing I like about it is that the 200 grit can also be used to remove a lot of material from a chisel or plane iron that needs a lot of rehab.

[Christopher Hawkins]

I use the Norton Flattening (http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Flattening-Stone-Waterstones-plastic/dp/B00067ZSJ0/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1349610896&sr=1-1&keywords=norton+flattening+stone) stone.

I start with my FINEst waterstone and progress to the coarsest.
This way, any slurry left on the flattening stone is finer than the waterstone at hand.

If you wash the flattening stone between the different grits of waterstones, you can proceed as you like.

The finer stones are used to remove scratches from the coarser stones. This results in a edge with fewer valleys. The smoother surface distributes the force from cutting the wood across a larger surface thus making a more durable edge.

[John Piwaron]

I use the Norton Flattening (http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Flattening-Stone-Waterstones-plastic/dp/B00067ZSJ0/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1349610896&sr=1-1&keywords=norton+flattening+stone) stone.

If you wash the flattening stone between the different grits of waterstones, you can proceed as you like.

Ditto. It works great!

[Jim Matthews]

The OP was discussing how to flatten the waterstones, not how to sharpen steel.

If you're working two stones together, the coarser stone cuts the finer one - unless the finer stone is harder.
There's also no way to guarantee that the finished surfaces will be flat, without a reference - hence the lapping plate
which is harder than any of the other stones.

If you're using such a plate with an abrasive medium for sharpening, the last stone flattened will leave behind a slurry.

It's common practice to remove the slurry prior to flattening the next stone - to prevent transfer of loose particles from the coarser stone.
(Larger particles may scour the finer surface and leave a track - a depression or runnel that the steel will ride above.)

Wilbur Pan recommended in a similar thread, elsewhere that the potential of contamination is in leaving the larger particles
on the finer stones - a boulder among the pebbles, if you will.

If using the same plate, flattening "down" the grits from finest to coarsest will leave an ever finer slurry on the surface.

If you're using each successive stone to flatten the next, you're inducing errors - both in flattening and in final surface finish.
If you're thoroughly washing the plate between stones, it should not matter which stone follows on a clean surface.

In full disclosure, I've migrated to diamond plates only and use machine oil on them.
No rust, so far and the diamond plates cut as new.

I found waterstones too messy for my shop, where there's no sink.

[John Piwaron]

My experience with the Norton Flattening stone is that it's useless. The problem is that the flattening stone has to be kept flat and it gets out of flat pretty quickly. I was working with another guy and I was going crazy trying to sharpen some plane blades. He handed me a DMT diamond plate and I discovered that my water stones were out of flat because my Norton Flattening Stone was no longer flat.

I threw the Norton Flattening stone away and immediately went and bought a DMT coarse/extra coarse diamond plate and have used that ever since - with excellent results.

Mike



Was thinking about that - the Norton sharpening stone is itself just that - a stone. OTOH, for me, I'm using it to flatten those reddish brown King stones. At this point my results appear to be flat. That *doesn't* mean the Norton stone won't become not flat at some point. I guess at that point I'll flatten the Norton stone with sandpaper and a granite plate.

[Harold Burrell]

I have 3 diamond stones. A 325 grit DMT, a 300 iWood and a 400 Atoma.

Quite frankly, either the iWood or the Atoma would serve you well. The DMT (IMHO) isn't even in the same league. Here are links to my source:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_462_464&products_id=1198

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_462_463&products_id=853

I agree with the poster who said you should search the Neaderthal forum. There IS a ton of info there. But there are also several VERY long threads on the subject...as well as varied opinions (sharpening is almost a religion over there ;)).

But from my research/experience/gleanings I have come up with regarding flattening is this: The diamond stone method is the best. However, I probably wouldn't try either of the above diamond stones on your 250 Norton. For that particular stone I would probably have a dedicated diamond plate like the iWood 150:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_462_463&products_id=852

OR you could use loose grit...or ever (*gasp*) sandpaper on glass, but just for that stone.

What I wouldn't use is something like the stone that Norton sells for flattening. My biggest issue with that is figuring out how to keep that thing flat. :eek:

[Prashun Patel]

David Weaver turned me onto the 600g Ezelap 81F for my Shaptons. It works well for me.

[Harvey Melvin Richards]

The directions with my Norton flattening stone state that it needs to be periodically flattened itself. I usually flatten my 220 water stone and use it to flatten the other stones.

Flatness is also a lot like squareness, and roundness. There is no such thing as flat, or square, or round. There is only a close approximation of these. You need to decide how flat you truly need the stone, and then determine what it will take to get there.

[Jeff Duncan]

I've bought two of the Norton flattening stones and both warped over time:( FWIW they didn't get out of flat from use, they both bowed from end to end....maybe b/c of the kerf cuts in one side of a relatively thin piece of stone? I don't know for sure but I won't be buying anymore. I now use sandpaper on a granite block to flatten my stones and backs of blades and chisels. It's dead flat at roughly 5" thick and should stay that way til the end of time;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Martin Jodoin]

I am considering purchasing a diamond stone to flatten my Norton waterstones.I have a 250,1000,4000 and 8000 stones
My understanding is to use a course or very coarse diamond stone
Can anyone please advise/comment
Further can anyone advise which diamond stone to purchase
regards Brian
This is the one i bought http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=70617&cat=1,43072
I tried other methods before and trust me, once you tried that, you will never look back.
I have ceramic stones, norton & Bester and this lapping plate cuts like butter, 20 sec per stone your done and back to sharpening.
Hope that helps

[Bob Glenn]

Would it be possible to flatten a Norton flattening stone on a concrete block? I've read they are pretty flat and abrasive.

[Eddie Darby]

The DMT DiaFlat Lapping Plate is "The 3/8" thick steel substrate is manufactured to a flatness tolerance of 0.0005" (that's five ten-thousandths of an inch!) over its entire working surface,", very very flat. - from Lee Valley page on the DMT

That is the goal, for waterstones to perform their best, they must be flat, and they wear rapidly, so you need to flatten them frequently.

I have the earlier model DMT stones, and use the coarse diamond stone in lapping.

A granite surface plate, with wet/dry sandpaper is also another very flat system.

[paul cottingham]

I used a piece of plate glass with grit for a long time. Now I use a coarse diamond plate in a fit of "I need to buy something." They both work great.

[Ray Bohn]

There's a 400grit 'economy' diamond plate made by a Japanese company called Atoma http://www.fine-tools.com/diasharpener.html that's widely regarded by the guys that have done a lot of sharpening as good for flattening waterstones - I've just bought one but haven't used it yet. It's reckoned to be advisable to seal the edge with a line of a clear lacquer to prevent the possibility of corrosion.

Some of the DMT plates seem to draw some flak for not being all that flat, others do very well with them. The trick seems to be to buy in a shop, and to pick one that's flat.

It's been said that very coarse waterstones (120 and the like) are hard on diamond plates, but how much of an issue that may be I don't know..

ian

I have the ATOMA 400 and it seems to do a great job of flattening. My only concern is that it leaves lines on my 8000 stone. I have not investigated this yet but I read a recommendation from one vendor who said it would be better to have a higher grit flattening stone for higher grit, harder water stones.

[Tony Wilkins]

Have you tried stone versus stone sharpening Ray?

[David Weaver]

I have the ATOMA 400 and it seems to do a great job of flattening. My only concern is that it leaves lines on my 8000 stone. I have not investigated this yet but I read a recommendation from one vendor who said it would be better to have a higher grit flattening stone for higher grit, harder water stones.

The 400 is a good practical match for an 8k stone. Finer is only beneficial for hard natural stones and even for them, only for razors.