Car Analogy for Jointer Decision... Help...

[John Hulett]

Wow... I really don't know what to do. As a total beginer, I'm torn. Everything I read and hear says to just save up for an 8" jointer. I was really thinking hard about that new Grizzly G0586, but...

I've been keeping my eye out on eBay for anything - there's a 6" Delta in my area that I may be able to get between $300-350 (auction ends Monday).

Today, LOML and I ran into someone at Rockler she used to work with. In talking to him, he says that Grizzly is junk - he wouldn't take it for free. I'm thinking this is like asking a Chevy guy what he thinks of Ford. Of course, he's waiting on delivery of his new DJ-20. He goes on to say that his 6" made due for 12 years and I'd be fine if I went with one too.

Maybe I would be, but when I look at lumber (without my tape measurer) it seems like I would be REALLY limited if I bought a 6" jointer.

I guess my approach is to say, I don't want a Geo, and I'm not sure I need a Cadillac; Chevy or GMC will suit me just fine.

So, should I....

1. Pop for a used 6" Delta and have a little extra a the Pamona WW show
2. Spend my every last dime on the new Grizz 8"
3. Save up for several more months, waiting for the DJ-20

[Richard Wolf]

The 8" Grizzly is a great choice. Alot of people are very happy with Grizzly machines. I also have a few and the quality is usually fine. If you get it and something is wrong, their customer service will work out a resolution. I feel you are better off with an 8" Grizzly than a 6" Delta or Jet.

Richard

[Scott Coffelt]

John,

As an owner of many different brands of tools including Grizzly, I would have to disagree with the person. Yes, some older Grizzly items were not good, but that is not the case these days. You can go to many major companies all around this land and find a line of green.

I personally will be buying the G0586 myself. If it is anything like the G0513 and 1023S I own, I will not be disappointed.

There are other items out ther you can get as well that will be good, so in the end it will be your choise, ut I would not hesitate to buy a Grizzly product.

[Tim Morton]

I would get the griz, and I would not listen to anyone who makes a statement like you heard today. Delta had its own problem with jointer beds several years ago on the 6" machines, but that doesn't make THEM junk. In the last 6 years since i have been reading alot of woodwrking fourms I have NEVER heard any seriouls problems within Grizzly. I think you would be happy for a lifetime with the 8" Grizzly. Its would be like buying a Brand new Tundra instead of a used Tacoma to use your analogy.

[Matt Woodworth]

I have an inexpensive 8" jointer (Yorkcraft). I've never regretted my decision to go with 8" for a second. As a matter of fact, someday I'd like to go bigger. If I was in the market today I'd get the new grizzly.

FWIW, grizzly used to have a well earned reputation for low quality products. Over the last ten years or so their quality (and prices) have gone up considerably. For example, their 1023 cabinet saw is about the same price as a unisaw now. I know a few guys in woodworking retail and sometimes they tend cling to the idea that grizzly is still low quality. I think it's wishful thinking on their part.

[John Scane]

The first Jointer I had was a delta 6". I had it for about 3 years and almost the whole time I wished I had an 8". For the small price increase to get an 8" it's worth it! I now have a 10" Oliver jointer and I'm already thinking of getting a 16" jointer.
I had a Grizzly lathe and it seemed ok but I sold it because I don't use it much anymore. I'm sure the jointers are good.....besides they are easy to tweek and adjust if you are at all machanical.
Go with the 8.

[John Miliunas]

Johh, while I may not give 100% support to buying a Grizz, I certainly agree with Tim by the fact that anyone making a statement like the one made against Grizzly is either, completely close-minded, doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, has had a terribly bad experience with one of their products or is just a tool snob. :rolleyes: A couple years ago, my situation was such that there was just no way I could fit anything larger than a 6" jointer in my smaller shop and I went with Grizz. I did end up with a minor issue, but Grizzly took care of it to my satisfaction. Would I consider another Grizzly tool? Sure. Why not? The little jointer I had did everything I asked of it and did it nicely!:) Fast-forward about a year and I ended up in a shop much larger than what I had. I decided to go the 8" route and found a good home for the Grizz. I could afford it and ended up with a fantastic deal on a DJ20 (non-X5), but I really wanted the advantage of the parallelogram designed beds. Other than that, most any jointer out there today, manufactured within specs will do a fine job. As someone told me when I was doing my search, jointers are relatively simple pieces of equipment. I imagine there may be exceptions, but I don't see any mainline jointers as being the "Hugo" of equipment. Grizz, Jet, Delta, Bridgewood, Powermatic and so on, all have some nice units. :) If you have the room, I would certainly opt for an 8" unit. The Cadillac in this bunch may indeed be the DJ20, but it's still NOT the Porsche! For that, you need to step up to one of the Euro models and some REAL big buck$$$! Regardless, the majority of what you'll be looking at out there are the Chevy and Fords, not the Geo's! Then, it does become a matter of most bang for your buck, as well as the type of support you can expect from the vendor and OEM. Best of luck in your search!:) :cool:

[John Hulett]

Thanks folks! What I'm reading here is pretty much what I was thinking. This validation helps a great deal.

[scott spencer]

Hi John - In the end you and the LOYL will have to make the executive decision. The comment about Griz is off base. Their jointers come from the same factory as Sunhill, Jet, GI, Bridgewood, Woodtek, and others. Very nice jointers, several of which have earned top marks in mags. My Griz G1182HW was Wood's #1 pick in the Sept 2001 jointer review.

Delta makes three 6" jointers....the little benchtop that I wouldn't recommend, the JT360 (aka 37-190) that I wouldn't pay $300 for used b/c it sells new for $350, and the 37-275x (aka 37-195) that sells new for ~ $580....$350 for that machine is a good price if it's in good condition.

The Yorkcraft 6" jointer through Wilke is a clone of the 37-275 and is said to come from the same factory. Both are very good jointers, but be aware that the rack and pinion fence adjust mechanism sticks out the back a ways.

If you can score the used Delta in that price range, you'd be able to recoup nearly you whole investment if you resold it at a later date. (that auction price may make the decision easy if it goes high) That said, I'd still love to have the width capacity an 8" jointer offers, but it's also nice to have some cash for wood and other accessories (like food! :D).

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

[Doug Shepard]

Think about what kind of projects you're likely to build and whether that's going to require face-jointing capabilities wider than 6". I wish I had room for an 8" and obviously bigger is better if you can afford and fit it. But I think you'd probably find that for a large majority of your work that a 6" would probably serve you well. For small furniture projects that I typically find myself making, there really haven't been that many occasions when having an 8" was really necessary. That wouldn't stop me from upgrading to an 8" if I could fit one in my shop, but you can get an awful lot done with a 6". And I'm sure as soon as I got an 8", there'd be plenty of times I'd kick myself and wish I'd gotten a 12" instead. There's always something that won't fit on whatever you buy, but you'll find ways to work around it.
Whether you go 6" or 8", you might also want to research the Powermatic 54 or 60. I've occasionally seen ads for the discontinued original 54/60 at very good prices instead of the newer, longer, more expensive 54A/60B. Apparently some dealers still have some new 54/60's floating around that they're discounting to clear them out.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Don't own a Griz product but it's one of the companies that I'm considering when my b/s purchase comes up. But.........in a slight defense of the guy who you spoke with........I used to be a Chevy man until my 1983 K-5 Blazer. I ordered it and 5 transmissions later, 3 major brake failures later; 4 /12 years old, spent 4 1/2 months in the garage, 23,000 miles on it........as a person who services equipment I know that equipment/products can have problems and FEW of them CAN NOT be fixed. The calloused attitude of the regional Chevrolet management towards my problems.......Prior to the Blazer I'd owned more Chevy's that any other brand of vehicle, since then I haven't owned a Chevy. Burn me once shame on you.....burn me twice shame on me. Will I ever own another Chevy?....Maybe but it'll take a tremendous product and reputation to get me to try it again. Will I ever own a Griz? Don't know but based on the satisfied SMCers I'll most certainly seriously consider it!

[JayStPeter]

When I first started reading Badger Pond forums a number of years ago, there were lots of people who would say that any Asian import was junk. Now that Delta, Powermatic and others are made there, I guess they just have to pick specific brands from the old days. I pay these people no mind. One of them convinced me that I should buy a used Delta 14" drill press instead of a new Grizzly. It's the least favorite tool I own.
I have a Grizzly 1018 that I bought used. It is now around 8 years old. I really don't have any problems with it. I'm pretty picky too ... a tool snob if you will :cool: . For most of my tools, I have a "wish I cold've afforded .." version. For example, I wish I could've afforded a MM bandsaw over my Grizzly. Even though I think the Grizzly is very acceptable, I still want a MM. In the case of the jointer, the only upgrade dream is a wider cutterhead machine. I don't wish I could've afforded a DJ20 or PM60. IMO, a jointer is a jointer.
If you do buy a used 6", keep your eye out for a better deal than you currently have. You can get new 6" jointers delivered to you for around $400. As far as I know, theres nothing that makes the Delta better than any of the others. I'd shoot for less than $300.

Jay

[Ray Bersch]

Ken makes a most important point - it's often not the problem with a product but the treatment you get from the company - none of us are perfect and we should understand mistakes and imperfections (I am not speaking about junk here, understand) - but to be mistreated by Customer Service is the killer for me - and I have a long memory - I have never, and will never, buy a another Chrysler product because of the treatment I got when a brand new car threw a rod at 2,400 miles - and that was in 1970!!!!

Ray

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Johh, while I may not give 100% support to buying a Grizz, I certainly agree with Tim by the fact that anyone making a statement like the one made against Grizzly is either, completely close-minded, doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, has had a terribly bad experience with one of their products or is just a tool snob. :rolleyes: A couple years ago, my situation was such that there was just no way I could fit anything larger than a 6" jointer in my smaller shop and I went with Grizz. I did end up with a minor issue, but Grizzly took care of it to my satisfaction. Would I consider another Grizzly tool? Sure. Why not? The little jointer I had did everything I asked of it and did it nicely!:) Fast-forward about a year and I ended up in a shop much larger than what I had. I decided to go the 8" route and found a good home for the Grizz. I could afford it and ended up with a fantastic deal on a DJ20 (non-X5), but I really wanted the advantage of the parallelogram designed beds. Other than that, most any jointer out there today, manufactured within specs will do a fine job. As someone told me when I was doing my search, jointers are relatively simple pieces of equipment. I imagine there may be exceptions, but I don't see any mainline jointers as being the "Hugo" of equipment. Grizz, Jet, Delta, Bridgewood, Powermatic and so on, all have some nice units. :) If you have the room, I would certainly opt for an 8" unit. The Cadillac in this bunch may indeed be the DJ20, but it's still NOT the Porche! For that, you need to step up to one of the Euro models and some REAL big buck$$$! Regardless, the majority of what you'll be looking at out there are the Chevy and Fords, not the Geo's! Then, it does become a matter of most bang for your buck, as well as the type of support you can expect from the vendor and OEM. Best of luck in your search!:) :cool:

What's the parallelogram design mean on the DJ20 and how does it make performance better? I've heard this mentioned and wonderd what it meant. It must be part of what makes this such a great machine. Alan BTW good post John.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Alan the parallelogram design means that the infeed table moves on an arch which keeps it's leading edge closer to the cutterhead. This means that you get better chip breakage (less tearout).

At least that is what I have gathered on it.

[Jim Becker]

Alan the parallelogram design means that the infeed table moves on an arch which keeps it's leading edge closer to the cutterhead.

More specifically, the parallelogram design keeps the edge of the infeed table exactly the same close distance from the cutter head as you adjust the depth of cut.

[John Miliunas]

What's the parallelogram design mean on the DJ20 and how does it make performance better? I've heard this mentioned and wonderd what it meant. It must be part of what makes this such a great machine. Alan BTW good post John.

Hey Alan...Yeah, what Jeff & Jim said. I think Jim may be able to verify this, but I believe that most of the higher end (Porsche class:) ) Euro jointers also share in this design concept. You're like to get the most gain from this design when working with more figured woods, BTW.:) :cool:

[Alan Tolchinsky]

That sounds like a very unique feature, one that I've never seen on any other "regular" jointer. It's like closing up the mouth on a plane except on a larger scale. Have a good day guys. Alan in Md.





Hey Alan...Yeah, what Jeff & Jim said. I think Jim may be able to verify this, but I believe that most of the higher end (Porsche class:) ) Euro jointers also share in this design concept. You're like to get the most gain from this design when working with more figured woods, BTW.:) :cool:

[Dennis McDonaugh]

It also means you don't have to shim the dovetailed ways to adjust the tables for parallel like you have to do with simpler machines. Adjusting the table up and down causes the ways to wear. Over time (some quicker than others) the tables can sag. You have to insert shim material to bring the ends back up. I don't think I adjust my tables except when I change the blades so its not an issue with me, altough if you use the rabbeting feature you'll adjust the tables a lot.

[M. A. Espinoza]

Not to throw too much into the mix but there is a new combination planer/jointer coming onto the market that handles 10" for around $600.

http://www.right-tool.com/rikrp10plan.html

A good option for a hobbyist, I wouldn't consider it an industrial tool. Its a 2-knife so you would keep extra sharp knives handy.

But I would recommend buying locally or from a business with good return policies since its a new tool. Not a new design so if their manufacturing is adequate it should perform fine.

I don't own this tool so I can't personally recommend it. I have a 6" jet and it works fine but not very handy for face jointing. If I had to do it again I would definitely go for more cutting width but when I bought I didn't know I would eventually do this for a living.

I'm considering unloading my jet jointer and makita planer to go the Rikon route. Space-saving and the advantage of the cutting width is worth it.

Shorter bed but with right technique this shouldn't be a problem if you're making furniture.

Also I have worked on Grizzly cabinet saws and my own table saw is a small Grizzly contractor type. Grizzly tools are fine, but be prepared to possibly have to tune or work with Grizzly customer service to get your tools up to snuff. But you might get one thats perfect out of the box. Grizzly has never given me any trouble about correcting any issues with their product.

Good luck.

[Jim Becker]

Only problem with that Rikon unit, MA is that its way "short"...very limiting for jointing based on the "2x bed length" rule of thumb.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

It also means you don't have to shim the dovetailed ways to adjust the tables for parallel like you have to do with simpler machines. Adjusting the table up and down causes the ways to wear. Over time (some quicker than others) the tables can sag. You have to insert shim material to bring the ends back up. I don't think I adjust my tables except when I change the blades so its not an issue with me, altough if you use the rabbeting feature you'll adjust the tables a lot.

Interesting point Dennis. I'm finding it'd better to remain ignorant of these finer points as it just makes you spend more and more money. :) On my jointer I usually just keep the infeed set at 1/32" and hardly ever move it and the outfeed very rarely. Ignorance is bliss! :)

[John Miliunas]

Only problem with that Rikon unit, MA is that its way "short"...very limiting for jointing based on the "2x bed length" rule of thumb.

I agree with Jim on the table length issue. In the past, (on my smaller jointer) I had tried stand-alone infeed and outfeed supports, but due to using "rough" lumber, some of which had a fair amount of bow or twist to them, it was unwieldy, at best. Also, I note that the overall height of 34" may be OK for jointing, but may be a bit stressful bending down much lower to feed stock through the planer! Lastly, at 147lbs. I may find it a bit too lightweight for all but the smaller stock. Just MHO...:) :cool:

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I currently am using a jointer with beds that are "too" short. Is it a pain?!?! For sure!! Can you get around it, For sure!

However, I am going to be upgrading my jointer here shortly to get the longer beds and over all a better machine.

[George Summers]

I have a 6" and used to think I wanted an 8". Then I started thinking (kinda' dangerous for me), just how often would the 2" serve me that a 6" wouldn't? I started looking at the boards I would pick up at the dealer and a very small percentage fell in that 2" range (between 6" and 8"). The big majority (probably about 85% by rough estimate) was a mix of 6" and under and 8" and over. I have come to the conclusion that for the price difference (generally) between a 6" and an 8", it isn't worth it. If I can ever afford to trade up it will be for at least a 12".

George

[Jeff Sudmeier]

The trade up to an 8 most of the time isn't for the width of the boards. It is for the longer infeed tables and a better machined, machine. I was hard pressed to find a 6 inch jointer with long tables that was significantly less than the 8" machines.

I tend to agree with you George that the 2 inches doesn't make a lot of difference to my board selection.

[Rick Shelton]

Maybe I would be, but when I look at lumber (without my tape measurer) it seems like I would be REALLY limited if I bought a 6" jointer.

I've never heard anyone complain that their jointer was too big. I have occasionally heard complaints in the other direction, though.

As someone else, mentioned. The 8" usually gives you a longer bed, which would be an advantage over the smaller length 6" jointers.

[JayStPeter]

The trade up to an 8 most of the time isn't for the width of the boards. It is for the longer infeed tables and a better machined, machine. I was hard pressed to find a 6 inch jointer with long tables that was significantly less than the 8" machines.

I tend to agree with you George that the 2 inches doesn't make a lot of difference to my board selection.

The trade up for me was purely for the width.

I disagree that the extra width does not change board selection. I still choose the thinner boards so they will be less than 8". But, I used to reject boards in the 7-9" range because I would wind up ripping thin strips off that would often go to waste. I would rather choose wider boards so I could rip them in half and get two decent boards. It depends on supplier, species, and project specs, but a significantly higher percentage of the boards I pull out are acceptable for width now (<9", see below). I compromise a lot less on grain, sapwood, and knots.

Also, I have had a lot of 12-16" wide glueups. I should easily be able to do those with two boards instead of 3 and get a nicer look.

I do like the longer beds and extra stability that comes with the larger jointer. But, I definitely would NOT have spent money to acquire a long bed 6".

I use handplanes to plane off the lip from boards slightly wider than the cutterhead. It tends to get unwieldy for much greater than 1". So, I would regularly process <7" boards on my 6" and can now deal with <9" boards. I used this time consuming technique a lot more often with the old jointer.

In conclusion, I think the wider head saves me time, allows me better lumber selection, allows nicer panels in sizes I use, and less waste. It was more than worth the $150 it cost me to trade up.
I can see that an even wider jointer would be even better on all counts :D .

Jay

[mike malone]

hi john
why don't you llok at the delta DJ20 clone at Toolmart????
price sure is right and apparently all parts interchange according to an earlier SMC post

http://www.toolmarts.com/product1412.html

[Rick Lizek]

"the parallelogram design means that the infeed table moves on an arch which keeps it's leading edge closer to the cutterhead. This means that you get better chip breakage (less tearout). "

The parallelogram has nothing to to with this "arch" or preventing less tearout. The undercut hollow curve on the knife gib is a chipbreaker of sorts.

The paralleogram is superior in that it allows each corner of the table to be adjusted independently and changes the whole manufacturing process of a jointer. Older type dovetailed way tables had to be ground as a whole unit with both tables mounted to the base. With the paralleogram the tables are ground seperately and assembled later down the line. It also means they don't need as big a grinder to surface the tables.

The other plus factor is a warped table in the field can be taken off and ground or replaced independently. So you don't have to take the whole machine to have it ground back into spec.

It's funny how the parallelogram is promoted but no one really understnds why it is superior to the older dovetailed ways. I couldn't believe what the misconceptions of the parallelogram design evoked in peoples minds. I work on machines and was a tech for a dealer. I serviced Delta, Minimax, and many others. Only replaced one Delta DJ-20 table in 8 years. Delta of course is no pioneer of innovation. The paralleogram design was in use on Eoropean jointers for many years before Delta.

[JayStPeter]

Rick,

I partially agree with you. As an engineer, I tend to analyze designs and have done so in my jointer research. The parallelogram design is clearly superior. I think it is especially so over the looong term (and larger machines). I suspect if you take a Grizzly 1018 and a DJ-20 and subject them to a decent amount of use for 100 years, the DJ-20 will come out much better.

I personally don't know the actual effect of having the tables closer to the cutterhead. First, are they significantly closer in the small range that we actually use them? Second, does it actually make a difference in tearout? Probably, but to what extent I don't know. My feeling is that the new helix cutterheads make a bigger difference. So, that is the route I've chosen.

Dovetail ways do wear. The 1960s Rockwell 6" I restored is proof positive of this fact. They have adjustments built in to take up this wear. Not a great design, but it works. If I was running the thing day in and day out, I would want a parallelogram design to minimize the hassle/lost productivity associated with adjusting the ways (and more importantly ruining parts before realizing it). But, in my hobby shop, it is years between adjustments. Heck, I don't even know how many years yet. I do know that the locknut adjustments on my Grizzly is a much better design than the little mini-screw adjustment on the old Rockwell. Without locktite, that thing could vibrate itself out of adjustment in a couple hours.

For a jointer larger than 8", I would definitely start looking at parallelogram design. I think the added mass would cause more wear and the larger heavier tables are more likely to sag. As you mentioned, the ability to remove the tables and have them surfaced individually is a big plus. I don't think there are too many large jointers that don't use parallelogram designs. Most of the large old iron did too I think. You're right that Delta is not a "pioneer" of the design. But, they were the only ones to offer it in a smaller competitively priced model.

There are plenty of 50+ year old dovetail way 8" jointers still in use today. So, I think one with moderate use should last a good long time. There are some who say the modern Asian cast iron isn't as good as the old american stuff. They think these jointers won't last as long as the older ones. Maybe ... maybe not. It kind of makes me laugh. In 20 years, I wonder if people will be paying a premium on ebay for those great Taiwaneese made jointers from the 1990s saying "That cast iron is better than the new stuff" :D .

Jay

[Rick Lizek]

The older large machines of American origin do not use the parallelogram system found in the DJ-20 and such. They used dovetail ways or four small inclines under each corner of the table. Commonly found on Oliver, Crescent, etc. In a sense I would compare the small inclines to a parallelogram system as
The better ones with the dovetailed ways had four point individual adjusters for each table. The problem I found with the machines like the older Delta's with the dovetailed ways is the base is so small in relation to the length of the tables they tend to sag over time. Easily corrected by shimming the outfeed table but if there is a twist you can only split the difference unless you have the table reground if it's really off.

I'm not saying the Dovetailed ways are necessarily bad but the older larger jointers had longer more massive dovetailed ways to support the bigger tables. In comparison the six and eight inch models have very small bases in relation to the tables.

I don't find any advantage in chip breaking with the closeness of the tables. I think it's more of a safety thing. I had a 20" paraleleogram type jointer that I was repairing the replacable lips on and had the infeed one off and ran some curly maple with the extra wide throat and the was no noticable difference after I put the repaired lip back on.
The issue of the old square head was there was more chance of getting something caught as the opening was bigger every 1/4 rotation of the head. I remember seeing the warning pictures of fingers that were stuck under the edge of the the ends of the jointer table. I couldn't imagine anyone would do such a thing but after being in the business 35 years I believe anything could happen. The gibs have that hollow which has been designed to be the chipbreaker.

I've been using the insert heads on moulders and such and they do work nice but I've had just as good luck with curly woods by making sure the knives are sharp and using the right feed. I suspect many are bying the insert heads to avoid the dreaded knife change.

People will be buying the old Asian iron in the future.

[JayStPeter]

The older large machines of American origin do not use the parallelogram system found in the DJ-20 and such. They used dovetail ways or four small inclines under each corner of the table. Commonly found on Oliver, Crescent, etc. In a sense I would compare the small inclines to a parallelogram system as
The better ones with the dovetailed ways had four point individual adjusters for each table. The problem I found with the machines like the older Delta's with the dovetailed ways is the base is so small in relation to the length of the tables they tend to sag over time. Easily corrected by shimming the outfeed table but if there is a twist you can only split the difference unless you have the table reground if it's really off.

Ahaaa, I knew a lot of old iron had tables that could be shimmed on all four corners. Never saw the mechanism, just assumed it was parallelogram.




I've been using the insert heads on moulders and such and they do work nice but I've had just as good luck with curly woods by making sure the knives are sharp and using the right feed. I suspect many are bying the insert heads to avoid the dreaded knife change.


Busted, that's my real main reason for buying one :rolleyes:



People will be buying the old Asian iron in the future.

:D

Jay