A Disston Jubilee saw - use it or not?

[Kim Malmberg]

I recently made my best find so far. A Finnish auction site listed three handsaws. No descriptions, no facts, but the pictures were clear. So in a matter of minutes I had ordered all of them.

They were: A Disston no 7, 26 inch, 7 TPI X-cut, a Disston no 12 26 inch, 9TPI X-cut and would you believe it a Disston D115 Jubilee saw. All three have been made around 1910-1915.

Now I know all of these are considered to be very good saws. And two of them will be users, that's for sure. But the Jubilee saw makes my knees wobble a bit. It isn't sharp so it has been used, but I think it might not have been resharpened. It has some cosmetic blemishes on the saw plate and some ugly scuffs around the medallion. It seems as though someone has tried poking out the medallion by inserting a screwdriver below the edge of it. But ll in all it is in very good shape. The rosewood handle is intact with no chips and the saw plate is dead straight, shines like a mirror and the etches are very well preserved. The configuration is 6TPI RIP which seems original.

Now I know there are always various views on what to do with collector graded saws. Should it be used or preserved for the future? I know that ultimately it is for me to decide, but it doesn't mean I don't want to hear what others might think. No matter how you look at it, you owe it to the saw to treat it right.

What I want to do is to sharpen it and try it out. I also would like to clean it up a bit as it has some small rust stains although no pitting can be seen. Normally I always know what to do, because anything you do to a rusty saw will be an improvement, and only slightly rusty ones will be fine with more gentle methods. But this one is both unique and highly polished and I really don't want to damage the saw plate. Also I would hate to demolish the fine etches. My normal course of action would be window cleaning agent combined with fine grit sandpaper and a sanding block around the etches. But I wonder if anyone has any experience of cleaning a Jubilee or Victory saw in similar condition. I also wonder if the etch could be more vulnerable given the highly polished surface?

Anyway, your take is most appreciated. Pictures here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/sets/72157631688241686/with/8052814458/

Best regards, Kim

[Erik Manchester]

Kim,

That is a fine looking saw you have there and it doesn't need much cleaning at all. I would use a little metal polish like Autosol buffed out to take some of the small specs and stains in the metal and then a few coats of paste wax to protect the metal. No reason that you cannot use this fine saw as regular use will not damage the etches to any significant degree. If it were mine, I would strip the handle and refinish it with several coats of shellac to remove the scuff marks around the medallion. A saw like that will last many years and I hope that you get to regularly put it to use.

[Jim Matthews]

If you have a very fine steel wool available, you could certainly try it under the handle (with the handle removed).

In my opinion, you have a fine user there - a tool that will serve you well.
Any polishing over the etch will remove some of the markings, particularly ones this old.

This can be deepened by judicious application of nitric acid, but my results have been mixed.

Were this mine, I would concentrate as you have on the worrisome portions with "live" rust and sharpen it for use.

Do you have a large tooth ripsaw like this, already?

Mine are very difficult to properly use unless well sharpened.

Parhain terveisin,
Jim
Westport, MA
USA
(where hockey is but a memory)

[David Keller NC]

If you wish to preserve the collector's value of the saw, do absolutely nothing to it beyond applying a little paste wax or machinist's oil to the saw plate with a clean cloth. Cleaning any tool with an abrasive or polishing compound will damage its value on the collector's market (collectors do not appreciate "restored" tools - they want them in pristine, unused-from-th-factory condition).

If the saw is going to be "yours forever", and you're not concerned with the collector's value, I would clean the sawplate with non-abrasive synthetic steel wool (the kind sold in ww stores that looks like a scotchbrite pad, only it's white) and paste wax.

[Jim Koepke]

Have you done any searches to determine the value this saw has among collectors?

It could be more value to you for the work it can do and the joy of use.

As David said, collectors to not want restoration. Stabilization and conservation are the ideals for collectors.

Oh dear, just did a search and found one that sold on ebay for $500.05.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Just wax it and use it, like david says. It already has a good polish on it, and it looks like someone has cleaned it before. It'll be a useful saw to you and genuine work with it will keep it from rusting while you have it (presuming you apply wax to it once in a while).

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I think the calculus between whether to treat it as a collector or a user is up to you - in the end you do have a very nice example of this saw, but while it might be more rare than the Disston models one normally runs across "in the wild", I don't think this is one of those tools where extant examples are extremely rare - it's not an odd patent tool or something from the 1700's where there's only a couple of known examples, not the kind of thing where you should feel an obligation to history to keep it pristine. Disston made a ridiculous number of saws, I don't think anything that shows up in their catalogs, even something that was only offered for a few years is truly rare in the sense that some tools would be.

My own personal calculation for something like this, however, would tend to be to try and resell it to a collector, simply because I'd think with the price I could get for it, I could purchase more tools of lesser finish and get more work done. . .

[Kim Malmberg]

Thanks to all above for taking time to answer my questions as well as adding perspective. Yes I am very well aware of what it sold for recently. The amount is obscene, even if it would fit my pocket. The money isn't the issue though. I know that leaving the saw as is and selling it would earn me some money although not every Jubilee saw will attract the same amount. My thinking is rather that I have been handed a very rare gift. Not only because these saws are scarce, but because I happened to find it in my home country. I think none of you can appreciate how very rare quality saws are in my country, let alone collator's items in good condition. The feeling is mind-blowing. Anyway, there are pros and cons. I want to try this saw because I think I might not get another chance in my entire life. On the other hand I know I am not a woodworker worthy of using it. This isn't a attempt to appear humble, rather a fact. I got interested in woodworking a year ago and I have so far spent more time rust hunting and cleaning tools than working with wood. I am not a bad sawyer and I have filed more than a hundred saws in the last year or so. So I am certain I can make this saw work very well indeed. But still, a part of me believes that this saw would be better used by someone much more knowledgeable.

As far as history goes, I do understand that we need some tools in museums because future generations needs to know what they looked like and how they were used. But I am not certain selling the saw to a private collector would serve this purpose.

[Jim Matthews]

You're thinking along the same line I follow - it's a tool that's meant to be used.

We're spoiled for choice in North America - I didn't understand rare imports until an 18 month stint in Sweden.
I say, make it useful. If it doesn't come off the shelf in a year, sell it for something you might prefer.

[Jeff Heath]

I personally own a NOS (new old stock) Disston that is in pristine condition.....has one pin-head sized area of rust on it, and the original etch perfect, not a mark on the grip, etc......etc.......etc........When I got it, it was still in the original paper wrap from Disston, and the saw had never seen any work whatsoever.

I waxed it, removed the pinhole of rust, and use the saw all the time. It's a pleasure to work with such a nice tool in my hands, and that is worth more than any collector could give me for it.

Besides, call me an idiot, but I stand strongly in the camp of woodworkers who believe that these "boots were made for walkin'.....", and I don't particularly care for collectors who hog up all the nice tools that should be sharpened and put to work.

As stated, over the many years in business, Disston made (and this is just pure speculation) millions of saws, and there's one or two hanging in almost every garage out there, so enjoy the saw for what it was originally intended for. I bet after a proper filing, she cuts like a dream, just like mine does.

Jeff

[ian maybury]

It's a choice that comes up a lot with motorcycles too. My experience is that it's a lot to do with the owner's thinking - the collector's head is not the same as the user's.

If the saw is truly unique then it makes sense to preserve it, but if that's the plan then a lot of care is needed to restore it in a way that doesn't render it irrelevant.

Thought is needed too to decide what to do with it. So many bikes end up locked away in collections and seen by nobody - only to be sold off to inappropriate buyers, or below value by uncaring family looking to cash in the estate after the owner dies. Many even get sold by the owner as decrepitude approaches and they decide in absence of interest by the next generation that if they don't disperse the collection that it could end up anywhere, or in any situation. Some may sell to bulk up the cash value of the estate for example.

The other route is that of the user, but the trouble there is that the bike never remains unaltered or pristine.

My thought is that it's best to clearly decide on one route or the other (they don't mix well), but if collecting then try to find a way of making it accessible to those interested. Maybe even involve a museum or the like if the item is truly significant.

Either way do it now. Who knows, it may be that in 20 years the world be in such a state that nobody is interested anymore. Not to mention that sparking some interest in the item has to be good for its value too...

ian

[David Weaver]

My own personal calculation for something like this, however, would tend to be to try and resell it to a collector, simply because I'd think with the price I could get for it, I could purchase more tools of lesser finish and get more work done. . .

If I had someone on the hook who wanted to pay $500 for it and it was mine, it would be gone as soon as they handed me the money. My two favorite rip saws were $80 together, one a D8 and one a #12. They were a good buy at that, but a common buy at twice that, and it still leaves a lot of money left over.

There's also something to be said for a good working tool that's not cosmetically perfect and not too valuable, you can just comfortably use it in the shop and not fret over things like getting abrasive between the saw vise and the plate when you sharpen it, or moving the saw in the vise and making some light scratching on it, etc.

[Kim Malmberg]

Well, you can all a exhale now. I have cleaned the saw plate, using only soap and water, dried it as quick as I could possibly do. Then I added some Autosol paste BUT I didn't use abrasives or abrasive sponge, or sandpaper or steel wool. I just buffed the saw plate with Autosol and kitchen roll. Nothing else. I swear (%&€#"??). The outcome can be seen in the pictures I've added to the image gallery

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/sets/72157631688241686/with/8052814458/

Now, I apologize for the quality of the pictures. But it is autumn in Finland and proper outdoor light is rarer than a Disston saw in my nick of woods. And it's been raining almost every day since ol' Henry sold his first no 7. So I have to snap my polaroids inside in fluorescent light which is no good. And besides the Autosol treatment (thanks very much mr Manchester in Ottawa) makes the saw shine like a mirror so any attempt of an image will reflect either a roof, the author or something else irrelevant tho this thread. But as someone said, wherever you go, there you are. The saw looks magnificent without any attempt to remove stains or what have you. And the saw is now officially not a collector's item as I sharpened the teeth. That was one of the easiest pies I have ever baked as the teeth, although dull, had very distinct forms that could easily be traced without those head ache inflicted jigs. The outcome? Well I have only tried it on a piece of 3 by 1/2 inch of pine, but the feedback and result is excellent. I did compare it to my go to D8 RIP 5 TPI and the result is wonderful and the feeling s even better. A very good saw.

As it is well beyond midnight where I live I will sign off and thank all and everyone for their thoughts and insights.

[george wilson]

Autosol is the preferred polish of the conservators in Williamsburg. I just bought a new tube from LV.

[Mel Fulks]

The best way to preserve the saw is to sell it . By doing so you convert it to 500$ artifact. It is because of private collectors that museums exist. You can find another less pristine saw for a user ,assure that the saw in question will be preserved and have money left over.

[Carl Beckett]

I have run across some harder to find items. And my philosophy is, to use them (properly), and take care of them.

My experience is that the tools in my shop degrade faster if I don't use them. So by using them I keep them maintained better.

If it's really rare then I would just donate to a museum for free ( since it's not about the money).

And if I have one that I'm not really using.... Well then, time to pass it on to someone that will appreciate it more.

If you take the time to learn proper technique and care....you aren't really risking anything by learning with it.

$.02

[David Keller NC]

Kim - Because your saw was not in absolutely pristine, unused condition, you've done no harm to its collector's value just by sharpening it. The only tools where sharpening would substantially reduce their value would be those that have never been used, and represent an extremely rare glimpse of the condition that a craftsperson would've seen if the tool was purchased new in the era that it was made.

I have, for example, a completely unused from-the-factory set of Varvill hollows and rounds with the original factory grind and grease coating on the irons, no owner's marks, and absolutely no tool box rash on the wooden stocks. It's tempting to hone the irons and use them, but I decided that even though these tools were probably produced in the late 19th century and are therefore not rare, they do represent the output of British planemakers at their zenith. So I purchased another used set of H&Rs that I tuned up and put to use.

But as everyone on the thread has noted, whether to put a high-condition or rare tool to use is a personal decision.

[george wilson]

Use it,don't refinish ANYTHING. Keep it from getting rusty,etc.. Refinishing it WILL really hurt the value. Just don't KINK the blade!!