Some questions about cabinets

[Tyler Nixon]

Hey guys (and gals),

So my mom just bought a new house. She pretty much hated everything about the interior so my dad and I are in charge of fixing that. Of course.

I have a fair amount of woodworking experience, so I am in charge of the cabinets. I've never built cabinets before but know I can do a great job.

My question is about the height of the countertop. In the kitchen she just wants solid granite. In the laundry/utility room she wants to buy a prefabricated countertop from one of the big home improvement stores.

So I went to one, and measured the countertops they have. They all seem to be 3/4" thick with another 3/4" overhang, resulting in a 1 1/2" appearance.

Everywhere I've been reading says to build the cabinets 34-1/2" high so that with the countertop it is 36". This is where I am going a little crazy.

Could someone please break this down for me? If I'm building it 34 and 1/2", plus 3/4" is only 35-1/4". I've read that people put a sheet of 3/4" plywood on top to mount the countertop to, but since I've never done this I don't know how that would look. Is this standard? I have installed crappy prefabricated cabinets before with those countertops and didn't put any plywood on top.

I'm just not sure why everything says to make them 34 1/2" to account for the 1 1/2" of countertop, if the countertop is only actually 3/4"?

And for the kitchen countertops, if she wants solid granite, we just have to make sure it's 1 1/2"? or 1 1/4" and compensate by making the cabinets 34 3/4"?

I've been designing the cabinets and just don't really know how far down to start the first drawer. Any advice? I know I just rambled a lot and spouted a lot of numbers, but if someone could help me out and send me in the right direction that would be GREATLY appreciated! I just don't want to start buying lumber and cutting and assembling just to find out I've been doing it all wrong.

I am currently suffering from paralysis by analysis, and need to figure out this one tiny detail before I get the ball rolling.

Thanks so much in advance! So sorry if my question is dumb or has been posted before, I tried searching all over the internet and got no real definitive answer.
-Tyler Nixon

[johnny means]

Your countertop should sit on top of 3/4" build-up. That over hang does not hang in front of the cabinets.

[Peter Quinn]

Factory made cabs are all 34 1/2" height. Why? Who knows, as you pointed out the actual thickness of prefab counters is 3/4". Stone may vary too. Most appliances have some adjustability. If these are custom cabs, all the variables are your choice to the extent that you can make the appliances work, so pick those if new, get the spec sheets, build to that. You could make the counters 38" high if your Mom were very tall, lower if she were very short. This may have an effect on others and may affect resale potential if the kitchen is built to accommodate somebody outside the average height range.

I would make a story pole for the elevations. Set the counter top height at 36" (or whatever height you choose) and build it backwards to the floor. Draw the story pole full size, this will give you a clear vision of what you will be creating rather than a scaled print, which gives you only a relative idea of how things look together.

First drawer? A least 1 1/2" from the bottom of the counter top to the top of the drawer front, maybe as much as 2 1/2" if you like wide rails, I've seen as little as 1 1/4" for space considerations, but thats getting a bit tight. So if the drawers/doors are overlay, its a little bit different than for inset. You need a little clearance for objects in the drawer that may "stand up" a bit as the drawer is opened, and equally important you need the proper visual alignment and balance if FF cabinets.

Check out frameless full overlay, barely any gap between top of drawer fronts and counter top bottom at all. So there are no hard rules.

[Tyler Nixon]

You could make the counters 38" high if your Mom were very tall, lower if she were very short. This may have an effect on others and may affect resale potential if the kitchen is built to accommodate somebody outside the average height range.

I would make a story pole for the elevations. Set the counter top height at 36" (or whatever height you choose) and build it backwards to the floor. Draw the story pole full size, this will give you a clear vision of what you will be creating rather than a scaled print, which gives you only a relative idea of how things look together.

First drawer? A least 1 1/2" from the bottom of the counter top to the top of the drawer front, maybe as much as 2 1/2" if you like wide rails, I've seen as little as 1 1/4" for space considerations, but thats getting a bit tight. So if the drawers/doors are overlay, its a little bit different than for inset. You need a little clearance for objects in the drawer that may "stand up" a bit as the drawer is opened, and equally important you need the proper visual alignment and balance if FF cabinets.

At the bold part; Yeah we discussed making them taller. She's about 5'9" and my dad is 6'6" so they talked about making them taller but didn't want to affect resale potential like you said.

I had read about using a story pole but due to the overwhelming amount of information I've absorbed in the last couple of days I had forgotten about that. So thanks for the tip! As for the other paragraph, they will be fairly wide rails as my mom likes the shaker look. They will be as aligned and balanced as I can possibly get them! That's one place OCD comes in handy :D

Thanks so much for the help, Johnny and Peter.
I'll post pictures when things are all done.
-Tyler Nixon

[Tyler Nixon]

Actually, one more question real quick. Since the kitchen cabinets will have a different type of countertop than the laundry room, should the kitchen ones have the same 3/4" build-up on top of them?

[Peter Quinn]

At the bold part; Yeah we discussed making them taller. She's about 5'9" and my dad is 6'6" so they talked about making them taller but didn't want to affect resale potential like you said.

I had read about using a story pole but due to the overwhelming amount of information I've absorbed in the last couple of days I had forgotten about that. So thanks for the tip! As for the other paragraph, they will be fairly wide rails as my mom likes the shaker look. They will be as aligned and balanced as I can possibly get them! That's one place OCD comes in handy :D

Thanks so much for the help, Johnny and Peter.
I'll post pictures when things are all done.
-Tyler Nixon


Check out the galleries at crownpoint.com, they build very traditional kitchen cabs with great proportions, lots of pics on their site, lots of interesting design features. Good inspiration. They don't give "line drawings", but you can pretty much extrapolate if you figure he average stone counter is 1" or maybe 1 1/4".

[Peter Quinn]

Actually, one more question real quick. Since the kitchen cabinets will have a different type of countertop than the laundry room, should the kitchen ones have the same 3/4" build-up on top of them?


For the granite, no build up. Otherwise the counters will be up in the air! On the formica with lip, I let the counter hang over the FF, but if you use a build up, the lip will cover that. Just make sure to build from the top down to get the elevations correct. Again, story pole will show all. 1" granite top plus 3/4" build up plus.....hey, wait a minute, what its that big gap between the counter and the top of the FF?:D

[Stephen Cherry]

Check out the galleries at crownpoint.com, they build very traditional kitchen cabs with great proportions, lots of pics on their site, lots of interesting design features. Good inspiration. They don't give "line drawings", but you can pretty much extrapolate if you figure he average stone counter is 1" or maybe 1 1/4".

Dems some pretty nice cabinets. Seems like that's about as good as it gets, at least what I have seen.

[Sam Murdoch]

Stone counter tops are typically 30mm or about 1-1/4". These are added to a 34-3/4" tall cabinet to work well with appliances. If you have an elevation without a dishwasher or a stove you can change your overall cabinet heights to whatever suits your needs but keep in mind the 1-1/4" (typical) stone top thickness. Other type materials are usually built up to "appear" to be 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" thick. This may mean that you are only applying a 3/4" thick top to your cabinets but that your top rail of the face frame is 3/4" taller on the face than will be revealed when the c-top is installed. On frameless cabinets the top rail of the drawer or door is very near the underside of the c-top.


Here are a few shots of some cabinets at various overall heights in the same kitchen:

242382 This is a 34-1/4" tall cabinet with a 1-1/4" monel sink top.

242383 This is a 36-3/4" tall cabinet with a 30mm granite top. You see that the face frame cabinets are taller with an 1-1/2" tall top face frame rail before the drawers begin. The cabinet returning on the left is frameless and shorter - also with a 30mm top, but this cabinet elevation is frameless and includes a slide in range.


As the designer you can control all these dimensions but changing the stone thickness can be costly.

[Mel Fulks]

I would not worry about resale value, the next owners will rip everything out. You stand a better chance of coming up with something others will admire by being original. Why is it every "custom" kitchen is so formulaic? Decide what things you will be buying,like the counter tops,and what limitations there might be with sizes etc. Then dare to be original.

[Tyler Nixon]

Thanks, Sam and Peter! Can't wait to get started on it now.

Mel - it isn't my kitchen, she has a specific vision for it and it is just my job to build it. Not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Also I'd say a lot of buyers would prefer to just have a nice kitchen they don't have to mess with. But that is not the point of this thread.

[Mel Fulks]

We are on the same page, I have no doubt that her vision is superior to that of the kitchen experts.That was my point. But most likely the next owners will rip it all out... I hope you and your family enjoy the project!

[Stephen Cherry]

Just a couple of thoughts.

On about my third day as an engineer, an experienced engineer came into my office and told me, "Steve, try not to think too much, if you can, just try to copy somebody else's work", Some of the best advice ever. By copying a successful project, you are potentially leaving behind the past failures.

First step, I'd look through the webpage that Peter posted, and have your Mom figure out what she likes, and "borrow" elements of the design. There are detailed pictures of the door profiles, etc.

2. Figure out who is going to make the doors. There are plenty of companies out there that want to make them and are set up with the tooling for it.

3. I'd consider finding the money in the budget for a festool track saw, and the parallel jig. Not cheap, but this would allow you to cut plywood very accurately.

4. Shelf pin holes. Find a small local cabinet shop, and ask if they can drill your holes for you. They need to be right, and the right machine can do it in no time flat.

5. Hardware, lot's of choices, and different price points. I'd check out the blum website.

[Richard Wagner]

Whatever you do, settle on counter tops before you make the first cut on cabinets. Counter top thicknesses can be a controlling factor in all that you are about to do.

[Mel Fulks]

Mom already has a vision. There are much better ways of holding shelves up than those time bomb shelf pins which notify you when to upgrade by breaking some dishes. There is no right way to implement bad engineering .

[Stephen Cherry]

Mom already has a vision. There are much better ways of holding shelves up than those time bomb shelf pins which notify you when to upgrade by breaking some dishes. There is no right way to implement bad engineering .

The unused holes are pretty ugly also, but they are convenient. Don't you think that in solid ply sides they would hold up OK?

[Peter Quinn]

Mom already has a vision. There are much better ways of holding shelves up than those time bomb shelf pins which notify you when to upgrade by breaking some dishes. There is no right way to implement bad engineering .

That bomb must have a slow fuse, we've never had a call back on shelf pins, I've worked on doors on cabs that were 50 years old which had shelf pins, no failures. They make grommets if you want a really fussy but slightly stronger and not quite as unatractive visual. I hate the Euro cab "line of holes" look, particularly on glass doors or open shelves. I prefer to limit the range of adjustability and tus the number of holes to a logical minimum. There are surely better systems, but not quicker. And for shelves of average kitchen cab length, pins IME work fine if the holes are accurately milled. Hardest part is usually getting them back out, not having them fall out.

[Mel Fulks]

I've seen a lot of them collapse ,I have heard people mention it as one of the reasons for the ritual upgrade.Sometimes it's caused by a pin being placed where there is a void in the plywood. Sometimes it's grandma's best china that was given to the victims as a wedding present that falls. We had a job a where the people told us at the beginning that they would not accept the pin system because they had trouble with them before We used a system where dadoes 3/8 x 1 and 1/8 were cut into the cabinet, the shelves were solid wood with tenons to fit into the dados, strips of wood with a bead on each edge fit into the dados and support the shelves. There is an early 19 th century precedent. But there are good commercial systems too. The old kv metal strip system is no uglier than those holes and it never breaks anything.Oh, on that old system we, of course, had to get them to tell us how to initially space the shelves and provide them with some lineal footage for possible future changes. THEY LOVE THEM. I have the highest respect for engineers and I know that if you were designing cabinets to hold vials of anthrax for the government you would not use the pin system. One more thing about cabinets .I have heard that in Europe many use movable furniture type cabinets ,haven't seen any used here in many years. It should at least be offered as an option by a photograph on the wall. I think the cabinet designs here are too trend driven and formulaic.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'll throw my 2 cents into the mix as well. First off I agree that designing on the fly is NOT a good idea. Sure if you've years of experience you can re-invent things. Having never built cabinets before stick with the standards to keep yourself out of trouble. For instance appliances are standard dimensions designed to work within our system of building cabinetry in 3" increments. That doesn't mean you can't build custom sized cabinets, only that you have to be aware of how they are going to integrate with appliance heights and widths.

As far as shelf supports the pin system really is the standard. I don't doubt that someone somewhere had a problem, (probably using crap Chinese ply and shoddy construction technique), but regardless I'm guessing it's pretty rare. I actually have never seen or heard of a failure before reading this. I've built plenty of boxes over the years and can't imagine the type of weight it would take to cause a shelf to fail in a well built cabinet.....no amount of weight a normal kitchen would see anyway;) Pins offer the combination of ease of fabrication and ease of shelf adjustment. I agree that the look isn't all that great, but whose spending a lot of time looking inside of kitchen cabinets anyway?

Lastly as far as cabinet height goes yes the standard is 34-1/2" with a 1-1/2" top. I have seen those tops w/ the built up edge and guys just add 3/4" spacers where they meet the cabinet sides. Granite is usually supplied in 1-1/2" thickness. Regardless the important thing to keep in mind is to have 34-1/2" clear to the bottom of the top, especially if your going to have a dishwasher, the 36" height aligns with the top of the range. Another height to keep in mind is the distance between the counter and upper cabinets. Local code will often dictate minimums so you'll want to check first. I've seen as low as 16", but personally I wouldn't go less than 18", it just gets too tight for counter appliances. Also be aware if your using a hood or over the range m/w to account for their minimum heights as you want to account for that ahead of time.

hope this helps,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

When I was a kid there were cabinets of different qualities available .Knotty pine to rosewood or whatever. How did everything get to be "high end" when in most cases it is just another set? All cabinets sold around here are high end and pretty ordinary.Have not seen a lipped or inset door in decades. Any cabinets that are really high end need something better than the machine gun system. How often do you see something of quality that didn't take longer to do than something of low quality? As for you not seeing any of the shelves collapse ,there is a good reason for that...THE YANKEES GET ALL THE GOOD PLYWOOD.

[Carl Beckett]

I have the highest respect for engineers and I know that if you were designing cabinets to hold vials of anthrax for the government you would not use the pin system.



I now work in the pharma industry. We handle and store a lot of drugs, some of which are potentially hazardous. Many of our drugs sit inside of cabinets on shelves supported by pins. I have never heard of a failure in this environment (yes, they are high quality laboratory cabinets - and shelf pins)

At the same time, I have personally purchased crappy laminated pressboard type bookshelves with plastic shelf pins that I overloaded with canned goods, and have experienced some failure.

Devil is in the details.

I still use shelf pins. I prefer either metal ones, or the plastic ones that have a small fillet molded in to help the structural integrity.

[Jeff Duncan]

THE YANKEES GET ALL THE GOOD PLYWOOD.

Yup:D

Hey, everything I do is high end, even the occasional melamine closet system! You go and try to sell a customer on low end or mediocre cabinets and your probably not going to get too far;)

As for having a better system of adjustable shelves....I haven't seen one yet? In this business you have the give your clients something at least as good as the competition. Fixed shelves are not going to cut it in the majority of kitchens. If someone has a better way of doing adjustable shelves I'd be open to it....until then "drill baby drill":p

JeffD