My eyes glazed over yesterday

[Bill White]

:confused: Was in a shop (not mine) and watched as two people were cutting mortises. One was drilling holes, another was using the mortiser to square the holes. Now this wasn't some small weasle mortiser. A BIG honkin' Grizz....floor model w/ 1" chisel.
So I says to myself,"Self, are they nuts, or are you just not knowing how to cut mortises?"
What say you?

Bill

[Gordon Eyre]

Amen to what you said.

[Howard Acheson]

Depending on the wood, I will sometimes do the same thing but I'm making 1/2" max wide mortises.

[scott vroom]

:confused: Was in a shop (not mine) and watched as two people were cutting mortises. One was drilling holes, another was using the mortiser to square the holes. Now this wasn't some small weasle mortiser. A BIG honkin' Grizz....floor model w/ 1" chisel.
So I says to myself,"Self, are they nuts, or are you just not knowing how to cut mortises?"
What say you?

Bill

Did you ask them why they were doing it that way?

[Peter Quinn]

I'm going to postulate based on past experience that their chisel isn't as sharp as it could be, nor is the center drill, so the drill press makes it go easier. I'd never turn a single operation into two if I could avoid it, and frankly they should be able to avoid that. The drill in the center of the hollow chisel should be removing most of the waste, no need to hog the waste first. I think they are perhaps foolish, but opinions vary considerably regarding best practices.

[Troy Turner]

They told the boss that's the best way to get it done with the least amount of stress to the tools...i.e. Job Security :D

[Mel Fulks]

It's so easy to break those hollow chisels, if you go there again ask them if they got through the job without breaking one ,or more.

[Richard Shaefer]

it also cuts the heat on the chisel and the bit.
I've heated and bent several square chisels on large production jobs in obstinate wood like white oak.

[Bill White]

The wood was mostly SYP, and the answer was "we've always done it this way". In my mind, the six last words of a sick business. Yep! The chisels sucked, but just needed a quick sharpening, the bits were in good shape.
I just wanted to check with you folks before I opened my mouth. Better here than there.
This was one area where the productivity was lacking. Owner wanted me to analyze the processes and critique.
Oh, no DC at all, only elec. ROSs, plenty of available air that was not used, on and on.
I'll have fun with this contract job.
Bill

[Larry Browning]

Ok Bill, at the risk of sounding like a complete idiot in all of SMC land, what were they doing wrong? And what should have they been doing?

[Mike Heidrick]

Larry they could have use a bit/hollow chisel combo in the one machine vs 2 steps.

BUT - if you have the staff and the machines and hours to spend.....

Less heat on chisel and bit
Easier to sharpen chisel even on the machine
Can use thicker chisel
Not as large an impact with pitch and heat with SYP

[Bill White]

Staff and hours to spend relate to added cost for each mortice. My point to the owner would be duplication of effort if the machinery on hand would do the same job with only one operator. Again, I was looking at efficiency. This is a commercial operation that is trying to "streamline" the operation.
In my mind, labor equals cost. Minimizing labor equals more productivity, thus reducing cost/time for the particular production component. I'm no "expert" by any measurement. This guy wants me to simplify his work flow.
Bill

[Larry Browning]

This is kind of what I figured, but being a pure hobbiest doing something faster is not at the forefront of my mind. I was thinking it wasn't a safety issue, but wasn't sure. From my point of view doing things faster actually cost me money. If I finish a project quickly, I just have to buy more wood! But if stretch it out, it cost me less.

[Jeff Duncan]

Can't say for sure without being there, but here's a couple thoughts....

First off....it's a Grizzly, so I wouldn't want to go pushing it too hard either! A 1" mortise in hardwood is pretty tough....in yellow pine, not as much....but that's still a big mortise! Also it would be a good idea to at least check the time difference between doing it in one shot vs the 2 step process. It may actually turn out faster doing it as 2 separate operations? You won't know for sure until you get some hands on though.

That addresses the mortiser....now for the real question, how many mortises are we talking here? If there's enough that this is part of a shop streamlining program to begin with, then your probably barking up the wrong tree right off the bat! If these guys are doing a decent volume of mortises a Grizzly, or any upright mortiser, is not likely going to be the most efficient machine. I'd strongly recommend looking into an oscillating chisel mortiser, (aka MAKA or similar), as a much faster solution that will increase output and allow guy #2 to go do something else productive with his time. Sometime shop owners look to the wrong places to save money;)

good luck,
JeffD

[ray hampton]

how did the mortise machine locate the hole ? were a drill bit in the square chisel to follow the drill hole

[Peter Quinn]

The other issue may be setup time. If you have regular processes done on dedicated machinery, that's one thing. But if you are setting up each time that's killing you. I was going to suggest a Maka as a faster option if the volume warrants it, Jeff beat me to it. Sometimes guys start out in a garage, they grow considerably, but they keep working like they are on a shoestring in a garage start up which limits out put and growth. They keep adding employees but it's a diminishing return as a percentage if the whole process doesn't change. My dad always asks " do you have 25 years experience, or do you have 1 years experience 25 times?"

[Chris Rosenberger]

Having cut a lot of 3/4" & 1" mortices with & without drilling the mortices out first. It is a lot quicker & a lot less work drilling the mortices out first.
With SYP drilling first is a must.

[Carl Beckett]

Having cut a lot of 3/4" & 1" mortices with & without drilling the mortices out first. It is a lot quicker & a lot less work drilling the mortices out first.
With SYP drilling first is a must.

Enough posts here to question whether a two step process is really all that bad, given the equipment at hand. Maybe its worth looking at the frequency of sharpening. Maybe its worth looking at setup times. Its definitely worth understanding how much this particular operation was for the overall labor budget, which would give an idea if investing in a different type of machine would make sense.

I sometimes would predrill mortises in hard woods if using a square bit like that - but these days for larger mortise sizes I try a different method all together (horizontal router machine or even a large pattern router bit chasing a template.

[Prashun Patel]

Dumb question: how many of these are they doing a day? It seems like an oxymoron to talk about production-speed M&T. If they're really after production speed and efficiency, are there other methods like loose tenons that'd be much faster and 'good enough'?

Nowadays isn't traditional M&T really done as a hallmark of tradition and quality and crafstmanship? In that case, is efficiency really an issue? I suspect that M&T goes hand in hand with other techniques that might take a long time to do anyway, and the bottleneck might not really be the M&T method. But I'm no pro, and I wasn't there, so apologies for speaking out of turn.

[Mike Cutler]

Bill

Could be the machine limitations causing two step process.
A few years back I did a project with over 700 M&T joints in Jatoba. I learned that a single step was faster for me. I also learned how to hone the chisel in place on a Delta 14-651 Benchtop.
If they've got a floor standing machine with any beef to it, they should be able to do it in a single step.

[Mel Fulks]

Often there are things you think could be done differently ,but you have to follow the specs. I like the old Wysong mortiser for sash and anything else that requires a chisel rather a chain mortise.