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View Full Version : Electrical panel upgrade - cost, strategy, etc.



Victor Robinson
09-27-2012, 1:45 PM
We've got a fairly small home in San Fran (2bd, 1ba, plus 1bd/1ba in the basement that is occasionally rented). The garage has actually worked out well for my shop, but as my needs have changed, the existing electrical setup's limitations are starting to come into play.

One of the major limitations shop-wise is that I only have one 220V circuit. Our panel doesn't have space for anymore breakers, but I think it's also older and undersized as far as breaker capacity (currently there are 7 20A, 3 15A, and 1 20A double pole). Service to the home, as I just found out this morning with a call to the power company, is 320A, a lot more than I expected.

Another reason a box with more capacity would be useful is rewiring the house, something I plan on tackling piecewise. It's nice to have a few extra breaker spots for new circuits that allow the old K&T wiring (still about 50% present, mostly in ceiling lighting circuits) to be cut short or removed. As we've remodeled the home, I've found various troubling things like K&T wire on 20A circuits, crowded junction boxes with scary connections, etc. I won't sleep easy until I know the K&T is 100% gone, but we also can't afford the $10k it would cost to rewire the house in one fell swoop.

While I am comfortable with wiring, I don't touch the panel, so I'll be getting professional help there. I'm wondering what I can expect to pay for a panel upgrade. Service in doesn't need an upgrade, the panel simply needs to be replaced to one with more breaker spots. Is it better to select and buy the panel myself? How many hours can I expect the electrician to need?

Kevin Bourque
09-27-2012, 2:24 PM
I just upgraded my panel box last Spring. Tore out the old 1970's box which had 3 different style fuses in it--- ( I still can't figure out what the designers were thinking when they thought that was a good idea) ---and installed a modern panel with loads of room for new stuff. Total cost with materials and labor was $800. It took the electrician about 4 hours to complete the job.

Victor Robinson
09-27-2012, 2:58 PM
I just upgraded my panel box last Spring. Tore out the old 1970's box which had 3 different style fuses in it--- ( I still can't figure out what the designers were thinking when they thought that was a good idea) ---and installed a modern panel with loads of room for new stuff. Total cost with materials and labor was $800. It took the electrician about 4 hours to complete the job.

Did you research/buy the panel yourself or just go with what the electrician recommended?

Kevin Bourque
09-27-2012, 3:48 PM
Did you research/buy the panel yourself or just go with what the electrician recommended?

I told him I needed lots of room for extra circuits and a 220v line in my shop. He determined the style and manufacturer of the equipment for me.

Victor Robinson
09-27-2012, 4:28 PM
I told him I needed lots of room for extra circuits and a 220v line in my shop. He determined the style and manufacturer of the equipment for me.

Cool, thanks for the info! What part of the country are you in? I'd be thrilled if I could get it done for $800 total but I have a sneaking suspicion we're in different areas.

Karl Andersson
09-28-2012, 9:12 AM
I had to get a new panel about 4 years ago - the first bid I got was $9,000.00 from a large residential electric contractor (advertises lowest charges in town! on late night TV), then I got a small independent master electrician contractor to do it for about $1,800.00 - new service drop cable, new box & breakers, and ran 2 branch circuits to an addition I built. I guess the moral of the story is that it shouldn't cost that much (unless SF contractors have way more overhead costs) and get bids from a variety of contractors (AND check references always). Sorry but I don't think my guy would come over from Baltimore...

Jason Roehl
09-28-2012, 12:34 PM
Your most inexpensive option will be to install a subpanel. You can pull that 240V circuit from the existing panel, replace the breaker with a 100A breaker for that panel, then run the appropriate wire over to a new 100A panel. The new panel can even be a service panel (often found in big box stores with a slew of breakers included), but the ground and neutral have to be isolated in the subpanel.

This is a pretty simple endeavor (I've had to wire our floor sanding equipment into live panels many times--just don't touch anything shiny--feed the wires into the panel, hook up the ground and neutral first, then hook the two hots to the breaker, then snap the breaker into place), but even if you hire an electrician, it should be relatively inexpensive.

Victor Robinson
09-28-2012, 2:00 PM
Jason, that sounds like a good idea. Pros/cons?

Seems like it would make sense to have the garage on a subpanel (2 220V, ~4 or 5 20A for tools, garage door, washer/dryer, future heater etc., 1 15A for lights).

At the same time this would free up at least one circuit from the old panel (garage door) and get the washer/dryer and lights off existing circuits which are overloaded and/or have some old wiring.

Definitely will have to look into this route, whether it's DIY or not. Thanks!

Mike Henderson
09-28-2012, 2:23 PM
Your most inexpensive option will be to install a subpanel. You can pull that 240V circuit from the existing panel, replace the breaker with a 100A breaker for that panel, then run the appropriate wire over to a new 100A panel. The new panel can even be a service panel (often found in big box stores with a slew of breakers included), but the ground and neutral have to be isolated in the subpanel.

This is a pretty simple endeavor (I've had to wire our floor sanding equipment into live panels many times--just don't touch anything shiny--feed the wires into the panel, hook up the ground and neutral first, then hook the two hots to the breaker, then snap the breaker into place), but even if you hire an electrician, it should be relatively inexpensive.
I was going to suggest the same thing but I didn't know if it would meet code. You have lots of service amps but I don't know what your existing panel is rated for. If your main breaker is of sufficient size (amps) to meet your needs, I suppose everything would be okay.

If you don't want to work in the panel with the power on (even with the main breaker off) you can pull the electric meter. The power company doesn't like it when you cut the seal on the ring around the power meter, but they get over it and install a new one.

Mike

[If you decide to do it yourself, get some advice from an electrician so that you do it to code. It's much easier to do it right the first time.]

Steve Meliza
10-01-2012, 12:26 PM
Jason's suggestion of a sub panel is what I would do too if the breaker in the existing panel is big enough (eg. 200A or more) as Mike pointed out. Replacing your main panel with a larger one means getting the electrical company to pull and reinstall the meter as that kills power to the panel. It's a big job and I'd be tempted to leave it to a pro. Installing a sub panel is something you can easily do yourself.

Be aware of code requirements pertaining to your rental. A homeowner is typically allowed to do his own electrical work on a single family home, but if that bedroom and bathroom in the basement qualifies as an apartment (eg. by having a 240V oven) then you'd likely need a licensed electrician to do all of the work.

Jason Roehl
10-01-2012, 12:45 PM
Keep in mind, too, that even if you have 320A service (that would be HUGE around here--ONE time I've seen 400A, the rest are 60A, 100A or 200A in residential), you can put a breaker in your main panel that is equal in amperage rating to the main breaker. In other words, if your main panel is 100A, you can put in a 100A breaker for the circuit that feeds your sub panel, unless your local code authority says otherwise.

Greg Portland
10-01-2012, 1:51 PM
When the contractor swaps out the panel they'll also have to bring the outside disconnect, meter, and breakers up to code. I upgraded my home service to 200A + added a sub panel for a hot tub and a sub panel for the shop for about $2.5k. This included the permits, visit by the local electric co to install the outdoor meter & disconnect, etc., etc. (electrician handled all the leg work).

I would recommend that you install a new grounding rod while you're upgrading. I've seen some old homes with the ground just tied to the pipes and no actual rod in the ground (or an inadequate ground).

Kevin W Johnson
10-01-2012, 4:44 PM
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the brand of the existing panel, and it's age. Victor, do you happen to know?

Victor Robinson
10-02-2012, 8:42 PM
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the brand of the existing panel, and it's age. Victor, do you happen to know?

Hey Kevin,

I couldn't find any model/year info, but the brand of the panel is Arrow Hart Murray. Next to the panel there are two smaller [very old] boxes mounted (each of them is labeled "pull box only, no fuses inside" and one of them is labeled with 30A). I don't know if these are supposed to be older subpanels? I've never opened them as they never seemed like something I *should* be opening.

Brian Elfert
10-02-2012, 9:24 PM
I couldn't find any model/year info, but the brand of the panel is Arrow Hart Murray. Next to the panel there are two smaller [very old] boxes mounted (each of them is labeled "pull box only, no fuses inside" and one of them is labeled with 30A). I don't know if these are supposed to be older subpanels? I've never opened them as they never seemed like something I *should* be opening.

Those old boxes could be disconnect switches, or since they are described as pull boxes they could just be a junction box.

Phil Thien
10-02-2012, 9:28 PM
One thing the others mentioned but I will reiterate, one benefit of a subpanel is that you can kill the entire subpanel if you're moving wiring around in your shop. Then you can work in the subpanel knowing everything is dead.

Kevin W Johnson
10-02-2012, 11:03 PM
One thing the others mentioned but I will reiterate, one benefit of a subpanel is that you can kill the entire subpanel if you're moving wiring around in your shop. Then you can work in the subpanel knowing everything is dead.

This is very true.

I think if it were me, I'd replace everything that hasn't been replaced since buying the property. It sounds like there is some very old wiring there. For peace of mind, I'd replace the old panel, install a subpanel for shop use and update all the wiring that needs it. I'd wanna make sure there's no aluminum circuit wiring lurking, that all the breakers can be trusted as much as possible. Breakers are rated for only so many trips anyways. I replaced every switch and outlet when I bought my house for example. The house was 16 yrs old at the time, thats 16 yrs of potential wear, and some of the outlets didn't hold plugs tightly, which is a fire hazard.

Kevin W Johnson
10-02-2012, 11:06 PM
Hey Kevin,

I couldn't find any model/year info, but the brand of the panel is Arrow Hart Murray. Next to the panel there are two smaller [very old] boxes mounted (each of them is labeled "pull box only, no fuses inside" and one of them is labeled with 30A). I don't know if these are supposed to be older subpanels? I've never opened them as they never seemed like something I *should* be opening.

I'm not familiar with that one. I asked, because there's still alot of Federal Pacific stab-loc stuff floating around and it seems they have a nasty habit of not tripping when the need arises.

Mike Henderson
10-02-2012, 11:33 PM
This is very true.

I think if it were me, I'd replace everything that hasn't been replaced since buying the property. It sounds like there is some very old wiring there. For peace of mind, I'd replace the old panel, install a subpanel for shop use and update all the wiring that needs it. I'd wanna make sure there's no aluminum circuit wiring lurking, that all the breakers can be trusted as much as possible. Breakers are rated for only so many trips anyways. I replaced every switch and outlet when I bought my house for example. The house was 16 yrs old at the time, thats 16 yrs of potential wear, and some of the outlets didn't hold plugs tightly, which is a fire hazard.
I replaced all the outlets in the house we bought, also (they were about 40 years old). You can get tamper resistant outlets which are good to put in if you have young children. If you don't have young children, they're good to put in for the next owners, who may have young children. Around here, they're about the same price as the non tamper resistant outlets, maybe less expensive.

Mike

Dick Strauss
10-03-2012, 10:27 AM
Arrow Hart Murray was still in use around here in the early 70s. I have a panel from AHM rated for 200A with 30 spaces that can take Square D breakers. I also added a subpanel for the garage with 12 spaces that is completely full.

I think the replacement cost can vary based on whether the panel is externally or internally mounted (as well as which way the wind is blowing). Those mounted between studs (internally) can be a real chore to get out with nails into studs on both sides (Especially if the main conduit comes in the side with conduit connectors wedged/stuck in the studs and/or panel. An external one where you can see everything you have to deal with and have easy access to all of the connections is much easier to replace IMHO. Even with nails/screws, the external ones pull almost straight out with moderate force.

I'd go the route of a subpanel as others suggested if you decide the cost to replace the main is too high. Either way you want additional breaker spaces because you never know what your future needs might be.