Water based aniline dye.

[Gordon Eyre]

I have used water based aniline dye on many projects over the years and have always been satisfied with the results on most woods. While mixing the dye I have never had a formula but rather just start with boiling water and then added the dye(s) until I was satisfied with the color. I am ready to begin finishing a blanket chest that I just completed building and would like have a duplicatable formula that I could mix up for other furniture that I might build later on.

Question: Is there a prescribed starting point when mixing aniline dye? For example, how much dye should be used for one pint of hot water?

[Jim Rimmer]

I've not used water based dye but do use denatured alcohol. I went to the dollar store and bought a glass measuring cup and some measuring spoons. I mix a little at a time and note the ratio until I get the color I want. It is then easy enough to scale it up. I would think the same process would work with water based.

[Gordon Eyre]

Thanks Jim. What I was really looking for was the starting point or mfg. recommended amount of dye per pint or quart of water/alcohol. As an example 1 pt. water 2 tsp dye.

I would think that the mfg. would have some such recommendation. I really have looked but thus far I have come up empty handed.

[Prashun Patel]

Gordon,

I always 'ballpark it' like you do.

if you have access to spray equipment - even cheap spray equipment - like the no-name HF/Woodcraft/Rockler version I have - i would highly recommend trying yr hand at spray dyeing (diluted in ethanol). It gives you so much control, you can mix up your dye highly diluted, then just keep spraying more coats until you have the depth you want. This also results in no lap marks, and a very even application. Also, as you apply each coat, it's easy to adjust with a 'drop' of red, green, black, or amber depending on how your tone is developing.

My point is, spraying it makes the process so dynamic, you don't need anything but a rough idea of where you're heading.

Also, why do you boil the water? I have not found need to do that. Does it make the powder dyes dissolve more evenly?

[Gordon Eyre]

Thanks Prashun, maybe I am destined to continue on with my haphazard way of doing this. I have powdered dye but the principle is the same. I practice on scrap until I get the color I want and then wipe it on with a rag. Still I can't help but think that there must be a starting point; i.e., 1 pt. water, 2 tsp. dye. Heck it might even be 2 T dye for all I know. I am mixing two colors which makes it even more difficult. If I just knew what the right starting point was I could mix the main color quickly and then just add a little of the secondary color until I reached the color I wanted.

[Mel Fulks]

I have a friend who uses a similar system with the water type. To mix colors he weighs out tiny amounts of powder with water and tests and records results. When he perfects the color he just measures the amounts he needs .Keeps color samples too .He was the foreman in a cabinet shop that only used oil stains. They were always redoing the finishes and "toning". I used to try to get him to at least try aniline. No , Mel, Nobody uses that old fashioned stuff anymore....When he started his own shop and was doing his own finishing he tried aniline and has never looked back ,or had to do toning or refinishing. The domination of the stain market by the oil stuff amazes me. By marketing oil as easy to use they have driven out a superior product that is easier to use. Subtlety and clarity in color has largely been replaced by what I call "used motor oil brown " and "burnt transmission fluid red".

[John TenEyck]

The recommended starting ratio is usually 1 oz per quart of water.

John

[Gordon Eyre]

Thanks John, that helps. I just read the staining section of Flexners book and he said that each manufacturer has a suggested ratio that will achieve the color that they advertise. I am going to try once again to find the manufacturer of my dye.

[Gordon Eyre]

Ok, I found it. The recommended amount is 1 oz. to 1 pint of water. Mix at a temperature of 150 degrees and then cool before using. If you don't have a scale then one level tablespoon is approximately 1 oz. this will make a deep shade of the color you are mixing. If you want it lighter you may add water.

For larger amounts you can mix two quarts by using 1/4 lb. of dye.

[Prashun Patel]

Here's the thing, though. Dye, having no binder (vis-a-vis pigment stains) can be applied and reapplied. If you allow the water to dry between each coat, you'll essentially be putting down more and more dye, so your ratio changes.

Yes, you can try the mfg's suggested ratio, but if you apply 2 coats, you'll double the intensity. So, unless you need to do just one coat, then I'm not sure I see the benefit in using the mfg's suggestion (within reason). In fact, IMHO, the mfgs of Transtint overstate (for my taste) how much you need.

Much more critical imho is getting right the relative ratios of two different dyes if u are mixing. To that end, it the mfg's suggested ratio (which is probably the same for every color they make) is moot.

[Gordon Eyre]

Here's the thing, though. Dye, having no binder (vis-a-vis pigment stains) can be applied and reapplied. If you allow the water to dry between each coat, you'll essentially be putting down more and more dye, so your ratio changes.

Yes, you can try the mfg's suggested ratio, but if you apply 2 coats, you'll double the intensity. So, unless you need to do just one coat, then I'm not sure I see the benefit in using the mfg's suggestion (within reason). In fact, IMHO, the mfgs of Transtint overstate (for my taste) how much you need.

Much more critical imho is getting right the relative ratios of two different dyes if u are mixing. To that end, it the mfg's suggested ratio (which is probably the same for every color they make) is moot.

I agree with what you said Prashun; however, unless you know what the recommendation is to start with you don't know where to start modifying it. If I find that 1 oz. of dye to 1 pint of water is too dark, then I could cut that by some set amount and achieve a repeatable result. My problem was that I did not know whether it was a tablespoon or a teaspoon, etc. With what I learned I can now go forward and create a formula that I can repeat for subsequent projects.

[sheldon pettit]

Hi Gordon, The only standards in the industry for dye concentration are arbitrary to the type and end use. That said, many books have been written on this including my soon to be book "The Formulary". In the case of the home owner, hobbiest, etc., Let me say that you know best as individuals what you prefer as to an end color as pertains to lightness or darkness of said colors. If most of your colors are light in nature, [meaning weak] then you would be better off using a 1 oz. to a gallon mix. If most are dark to very dark, then an 8 or 16 oz. to a gallon will more than suffice. My standard lab mix is 4 oz. to a gallon of which i normally had to cut quite a bit for lighter colors for example. Light amber tones can be done with as little as 1/8 oz. per gallon or even less, for another example.
In all, There is just to much to know and understand to write on a blog, but keep this in mind when deciding on what your trying to accomplish ok?



Sam / Chemmy

[Gordon Eyre]

Hi Gordon, The only standards in the industry for dye concentration are arbitrary to the type and end use. That said, many books have been written on this including my soon to be book "The Formulary". In the case of the home owner, hobbiest, etc., Let me say that you know best as individuals what you prefer as to an end color as pertains to lightness or darkness of said colors. If most of your colors are light in nature, [meaning weak] then you would be better off using a 1 oz. to a gallon mix. If most are dark to very dark, then an 8 or 16 oz. to a gallon will more than suffice. My standard lab mix is 4 oz. to a gallon of which i normally had to cut quite a bit for lighter colors for example. Light amber tones can be done with as little as 1/8 oz. per gallon or even less, for another example.
In all, There is just to much to know and understand to write on a blog, but keep this in mind when deciding on what your trying to accomplish ok?

Sam / Chemmy

Good input, thanks for suggestion. I may start with 1/2 oz per pint and see what I think. Adding or subtracting from that point will be easy to do.

[sheldon pettit]

Also keep in mind that all colors such as medium walnut or red mahogany etc., are just mixtures of the three primaries [red/blue/yellow] your much better off making your own walnut or other colors as they do and offer. Just make sure to get a pure red/blue/yellow ok?

[Prashun Patel]

Gordon, my starting point varies by color. For amber and brown I used to start with 2 to 4 pct. For brighter colors yellow, green, red, lue, I doubled that. For black, I use even more.

[Gordon Eyre]

When it comes to staining I am all for simplicity. I doubt that I will ever do more than to mix together a couple of premixed colors from the manufacturer such as mahogany and French walnut as an example. If I could get the clarity of a dye in a can of oil based stain I would use that.

[Scott Holmes]

I've seen and used two different systems for water soluble dyes. Both work pretty well for repeatablity...

1. When mixing your dyes mix the entire container (in this case say 2 oz of powder) in ~ 1 pint of hot water.
This makes a super concentrated dye solution. It will keep indefinitely.

Now you can use these super concentrates to mix small quantities until you get the color you want. e.g. add say 1/8 tsp of Med brown dye and 1/4 tsp of Dark walnut and 3 drops of red mahogany to 2 oz of water (or 4 oz for a lighter color). Once you know the color match then upping it to a quart or gallon is simple and repeatable; even if you made a gallon and now you only need another quart is easy to get the right color.

2. Same principle but leave the dyes in the powder form. Use spice measuring spoons (See below) and make up samples in 1oz or 2 oz samples. Often when using this method I'll mix a 1oz or 2oz sample of the colors I think I'll need then use these liquids and mix them
e.g. 1/8 tsp of red Mahogany powder in 1 oz water, a dash of dark walnut powder in 1 oz water

now I'll mix amounts of these liquids say 1/4 tsp of red mah with (3) 1/4 tsp of dr walnut. I'll keep mixing new batches until I find the right combination.

It's much easier to do than it is to type it up.



http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/m/mhDidhDlM0RZjZt09YJHpvA/140.jpg

•Tad — 1/8th teaspoon
•Dash — 1/16th teaspoon
•Pinch — 1/24th teaspoon
•Smidgen (smidge, for short) — 1/32nd teaspoon
•Drop — 1/60th teaspoon

[Kenneth Speed]

I generally mix my water based dyes at double strength ( In other words I use half the water the manufacturer recommends) and then I "play" with a small measured amount of dye, keeping track of how much I'm diluting it) and a piece of scrap until I get to something that looks right and then mix a larger batch for the project. If I have to make a mixture of dyes I record the proportions and what the mixture is/was for. Not terribly scientific but not totally hit or miss either. if I'm doing something for a client I'll do a sample board with labelled colors and a quick clear finish to give them a good indication of what the color will be. Sometimes I'll do a complete sample using the same exact finishing schedule I plan to use and get it approved before I finish the piece.

Ken

[Gordon Eyre]

Scott your input is always very detailed and precise. Thank you very much.

Thanks For taking the time to respond Ken, much appreciated.

[jesse ross]

I would stay away from using measuring spoons when using dye powder. Different dyes, mixtures, and batches can be fluffier or denser than one another, so volume of powder can be misleading (think a teaspoon of feathers vs. a teaspoon of led.) Of course this isn't an issue if you're using liquid dyes.

Generally, 1 oz to 1 quart of water (or solvent) is a strong solution. Start with that, pour off smaller volumes and dilute to experiment with lighter shades. Of course it's best to follow the mfg's guidelines, but truthfully there aren't that many people making aniline dyes, and this ratio generally holds. You may get more dye to dissolve into a quart, then realize the over-saturated, thick solution gives you lap marks.

If you write down your weight to liquid measurement, you have a better shot at reproducing the color in the future should that be necessary. Differences in wood & application method always make this process especially 'fun' however.