Shop tour #7A Green machines - 37" Timesavers widebelt

[lou sansone]

hello fellow ww's
I want to finish up my shop tour with this series of green machines. The first green one is as the title suggests - A Wide Belt sander. I see from my limited time here at the creek that many of you have sanding machines of some sort. Some would say that any sanding surfacer ranks in the "nice to have" as opposed to the "must have". I would agree that it is a nice to have and not a must have. Having said that, I have found it very usefull in a number of ways ( figured lumber and 1/4 and thinner stock for example, as well as very wide boards ) .


I am not an expert on wide belts, but here is what I have found out ( some may have more expertise and wish to correct me which is fine ). There are 2 basic styles of these machines. #1 platen style #2 Contact drum.

Most of the machines that you run across are platen style and excell at sanding veneer and such where you only want to remove .002" at a pass. The platen can be raised up so that the smaller contact rollers touch the work piece. This allows for a more stock to be removed ( .030 ). Some feel that platen machines are not ideally suited for solid wood processing, but make the compromise by allowing the platen to be raised up out of the way. The problem with these machines is that the diameter of the contact rollers is pretty small ( compared to a true contact drum machine )

The contact drum machines are not very well suited for veneer sanding but are ideal for solid wood processing, like most ww's do. Contact drum machines come in a couple of drum sizes. From what I could find out the most popular is a 6" dia drum. There are also machine with extra large drums in the 12" dia range. It turns out the the machine I purchased from the original owner is one of those extra large drum machines. I lucked out, because it was only after buying the machine that I found out some of this information.

I bought this from a dealer who took it as a trade for a new machine. It had only one owner in a 2 or 3 man shop. I got all the original paper work with it and original manuals. These are the types of machines you want to look for. My advise is if you want one of these used, stay away from "ebay" and the other auction sites, those machines are wooped.

This machine uses pneumatic tracking and has worked fine. most modern machines use photo eyes, but there is nothing wrong with the older technology if you have some idea of how to adjust it.

If you do go looking for one of these machines, make sure to carefully inspect the surface of the contact drum. Mine has one small score in it that causes a ridge of a few mills. They can get very badly damaged if someone has fed a board that is just too thick for the machine to process.

This particular machine has a 20 hp cast iron beast of a motor that runs the drum. It is quite fun to start up.

enjoy

[Corvin Alstot]

Lou

I enjoyed your shop tour!
Looks like your having fun.

Corvin

[David Fried]

Lou,

My head is still spinning from the last part of the tour. That's an amazing piece of equipment. I think I've owned cars with less horsepower!

Dave Fried

[Corey Hallagan]

Wow, that is one huge piece of equipment. You have a beautiful shop with some cool machinery... ...... lol... if you powered that sander and that big old jointer up at the same time, I would probably wet my pants and yell for my mommy!
Honestly, thanks for the tour Lou, you have a shop to be proud of, enjoy it.

Corey

[Alan Turner]

Geez, and I never had before thought of a Timesaver as "old iron," but now I know better.

[lou sansone]

Geez, and I never had before thought of a Timesaver as "old iron," but now I know better.

Hi alan

timesavers used to be made right in the old usa and were extra heavy. This one tips the scale at about 3800 lbs (1973 vintage ) . A modern 37" machine is about half the weight... where did it all go?

lou

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Another awesome piece of machinery Lou! What do you buy by the pound? Is this weight thing an addiction? Seriously though you have a fine setup in your shop! You have tools that most of us would love to own but probably never will. Again Nice setup!

[Tyler Howell]

Lou you really like to torture us, and it feels so good. Thanks for sharing :cool:

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Lou, that is one nice looking peice of machinery! Thanks for the post, it was all new information for me.

[lou sansone]

Lou, that is one nice looking peice of machinery! Thanks for the post, it was all new information for me.

hi jeff
Thanks for the comments. As I have stated before, one of the reasons that I wanted to take the opportunity to present this information in this slow drawn out format was not to "crow" about all my tools. Really any guy with more money than brains can fill up a shop of tools that he has no idea of how or why they work. My motivation was to be able to provide some real information about these machines that will help folks make informed purchases and be able to evaluate this machine vs that machine.
I do welcome you all if you have some specific question about a particular tool to pm me and I will try to answer them as best as I can.

BTW. I realize that this particular machine seems like it is way out of reach for the average ww. It really is not. I took my time and looked for one ( the timesavers brand were really the first on the block, I know that beach and nash also made big drum sanders, but for wide belts timesavers is really the unisaw of sanders ) for a couple of years. I paid less for this machine than some are paying for a new drum sander!

regards
lou

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Lou.....I hope my post didn't offend you or anybody else! It is, in fact, a neat experience to learn about new (or in your case old) machinery, their method of operation and the reasons the owner bought that particular piece of equipment. Often it's these reasons that effect my future purchases or plans. It's been a real treat to see your shop and your tools! My comments were based solely on my personal situation as a soon to be retiree, with limited income and a beginner, woodworker hobbiest. I am one who happen to marry a woman who has NEVER denied me a tool! I also inheritied enough Scotch from a maternal grandmother to try to be frugal and yet, have enough experiences with "less than satisfactory cheap stuff" that I always try to buy the best quality that I can afford and justify? Make sense? I really appreciate the work and thought that you've put into building and outfitting your shop.

[lou sansone]

Lou.....I hope my post didn't offend you or anybody else! It is, in fact, a neat experience to learn about new (or in your case old) machinery, their method of operation and the reasons the owner bought that particular piece of equipment. Often it's these reasons that effect my future purchases or plans. It's been a real treat to see your shop and your tools! My comments were based solely on my personal situation as a soon to be retiree, with limited income and a beginner, woodworker hobbiest. I am one who happen to marry a woman who has NEVER denied me a tool! I also inheritied enough Scotch from a maternal grandmother to try to be frugal and yet, have enough experiences with "less than satisfactory cheap stuff" that I always try to buy the best quality that I can afford and justify? Make sense? I really appreciate the work and thought that you've put into building and outfitting your shop.

Hi ken

no problem, I wasn't responding to your most gracious post and reply. I agree that folks should be frugal and not just buy stuff to have it. I really do build furniture. This past month has been a distraction because of the band saw purchase, which will be one of the tools shown in shop tour 7C. Like I said, even though only a few folks take the time to respond to my tour with a post, I am pretty sure that others are just taking time to listen and learn and that is how it should be. We all are learning from each other. I look at rob millard and say "wow" that guy is good, as well as other folks work shown here and on other sites.

kind regards
lou

[Steve Stube]

Lou, I like your belt rack (stool flange and PVC pipe, right?), thought I might have missed it in a previous post but I checked and this is the first (top photo) it shows up. What is the length of the pipe? Are you satisfied with the strength of it, as is, or would you do it different next time. I have a bunch of 6" and 8" belts (48" and 84" and several grits) that take up lots of space and are heavy too. I've been thinking about hanging them out over an open stairwell using metal brackets and 36" long PVC pipe split in half to spread (avoid kinking). Your method bears consideration, thanks.

Yes there are those of us lurking in awe as your tour unfolds.

[lou sansone]

Lou, I like your belt rack (stool flange and PVC pipe, right?), thought I might have missed it in a previous post but I checked and this is the first (top photo) it shows up. What is the length of the pipe? Are you satisfied with the strength of it, as is, or would you do it different next time. I have a bunch of 6" and 8" belts (48" and 84" and several grits) that take up lots of space and are heavy too. I've been thinking about hanging them out over an open stairwell using metal brackets and 36" long PVC pipe split in half to spread (avoid kinking). Your method bears consideration, thanks.

Yes there are those of us lurking in awe as your tour unfolds.

hi steve
wow ... good catch on the belt rack.. It is exactly as you say.. a toilet flange bolted to the wall with regular pvc pipe.. works great and I would recommend it. My sander uses 37" x 75" belts and if they get creased they get ruined. Each belt is about 50 bucks, so you don't want to ruin them needlessly. Like I said, the wide belt may seem over the top, but if you are patient you can find one for a reasonable price.


BTW for all of you who have an eye for detal like steve does, take a look at the picture that shows the timesavers lable plate and the turn crank. If you notice the turn crank has divisions on it from 0 to 20. Timesavers was into the digital age before there was a digital age. Each division on the turn crank equals 0.001", one full revloution equals 0.020" . Pretty cool!



lou

[George Summers]

I guess I missed something along the way. After seeing this machine I want to see the rest of the shop tour but having done a search, I can't find anything. How do I get back to the previous postings?

George

[David Fried]

Lou,

Now that my head has stopped spinning ... There is a lot of good information in this post. You have first hand experience and I really appreciate your sharing it.

One of the first things I did was go out buy the Tablesaw book, Bandsaw book, etc. I was surprised to see the duplication. That is, making dovetails on the bandsaw, making dovetails on the table saw, making dovetails with the router, etc. I think it falls under the saying about everything looking like a nail to a man with a hammer. Now that I have some of these tools I know what I prefer to use them for (although I am still learning and experimenting).

It's nice learn what the different sanders excel at. I would be curious to learn what you have found the RAM in the last part of the tour indispensable for (that is just one of those tools where there isn't a book or a lot of discussion) as well as some of the other tools you have shared with us.

Thanks

Dave Fried

[lou sansone]

I guess I missed something along the way. After seeing this machine I want to see the rest of the shop tour but having done a search, I can't find anything. How do I get back to the previous postings?

George

Hi george

here are the links to the previous tours. I hope that you will find them usefull

regards lou
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17821
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17916
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18423<O:p</O:p

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18192<O:p</O:p

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18645<O:p</O:p

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18204<O:p</O:p
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18836
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18970


<O:p</O:p

[lou sansone]

Lou,

Now that my head has stopped spinning ... There is a lot of good information in this post. You have first hand experience and I really appreciate your sharing it.

One of the first things I did was go out buy the Tablesaw book, Bandsaw book, etc. I was surprised to see the duplication. That is, making dovetails on the bandsaw, making dovetails on the table saw, making dovetails with the router, etc. I think it falls under the saying about everything looking like a nail to a man with a hammer. Now that I have some of these tools I know what I prefer to use them for (although I am still learning and experimenting).

It's nice learn what the different sanders excel at. I would be curious to learn what you have found the RAM in the last part of the tour indispensable for (that is just one of those tools where there isn't a book or a lot of discussion) as well as some of the other tools you have shared with us.

Thanks

Dave Fried

Hi david

the ram has a couple of very nice features for wood working. Are they "indespensible"? Well not indespensible, but IMHO very useful and a good machine for a WW to have. If all things were equal and you had a RAM and a regular DP side by side for the same money, I would say that the RAM is a better choice for a number of reasons.
here are a few

1. The tilting head allows one to drill holes at an angle without having to tilt the piece of work. There was a time when table saws tilted the table rather than the blade. Well the modern drill press is like a tilting TS. The RAM is more like a modern table saw. It seems to me that it is just easier to keep the work on the table when it is level with the floor.

2. If you have ever tried to use a drill press to drill a hole in a large part, you will find that the post gets in your way every time. Most drill presses are in the 16" or smaller range, which means that the post is 8" from the drill. Sometimes this is just too close. I believe that the ram gives you 31" to the post, quite a difference.

3. The table of the ram is great for fixturing furniture parts because it is so large, compared to a modern drill press with their small tables. That is exactly why ww's make wooden tables to fit on top of their metal drill press tables, those tables are just to small for furniture.

4. The RAM has a post and drilling head that moves up and down, keeping the work piece always at the same comfortable hight. A normal drill press moves the piece up and down, and IMHO is not as nice a set up.

5. As I showed in one of the pictures of the RAM you can rotate the drilling head so you can work on pieces that are sitting on the floor, without having to worry that the DP will tip over. Yes you can also do that with a regular DP but you better bolt it to the floor.

6. Last but not least it is a thing of beauty !

lou

[Dan Forman]

Lou---Thanks for that last bit about the differences between the RAM and standard drill press.

Dan

[Steve Stube]

If I can add one more use for the RAM style drill press it would be that it is sized perfectly for the Thomson 100 Mill-Drill table with pattern tracer stylus. Let your imagination be your guide. The "T" slotted work table on this is 11" X 20" (the shinny part on top) for scale comparison.

[Jack Wood]

Ditto on what all of the other creekers have written Lou! But I do have a question for you, I don't recall seeing the answer in your post, what exactly is it that you do? Is this just a hobby gone way out of control:p or do you make a living at it? Thanks for letting us in on your "nice little shop":D

[lou sansone]

Ditto on what all of the other creekers have written Lou! But I do have a question for you, I don't recall seeing the answer in your post, what exactly is it that you do? Is this just a hobby gone way out of control:p or do you make a living at it? Thanks for letting us in on your "nice little shop":D

hi jack

the short answer is that it is a hobby at this time and maybe for ever. The little longer answer is that I have always enjoyed working with wood and about 10 years ago my wife and I bought an 18th century house that still needed a lot of work as well as being an ideal setting for displaying antique furniture. So over the years I have continued to restore the home ( using the shop to do that ) and have built a fair amount of period furniture that looks good along side many of the antiques that we have been able to pick up at various auctions.

Both my children are grown now, but during the time I was building my shop my son was in his teen years and that is a good time to keep boys busy doing things to keep them busy .... I am sure you get the picture. Well, he helped me build the shop, along with many other projects around the house. Obviously I have spent money on all of this, but in some ways it has not been all that much considering what I have been able to realize for my return on investment. Most of my machines cost way less than a plasma tv, that many folks seem to need to have, or boats, ATV's or fancy vacations.

What I do for a living is interesting to say the least. By education and by training I am an engineer. I see that you are a military brat, so you should understand what a "mustang" is. Well I am a mustang engineer. I worked with my hands before I went to school ( while I went to school ) and I still work with my hands developing all types of machines for military applicatons ... enough said.

so that is the long answer

lou

[Kelly C. Hanna]

What a machine!

[Jack Wood]

hi jack

the short answer is that it is a hobby at this time and maybe for ever. The little longer answer is that I have always enjoyed working with wood and about 10 years ago my wife and I bought an 18th century house that still needed a lot of work as well as being an ideal setting for displaying antique furniture. So over the years I have continued to restore the home ( using the shop to do that ) and have built a fair amount of period furniture that looks good along side many of the antiques that we have been able to pick up at various auctions.

Both my children are grown now, but during the time I was building my shop my son was in his teen years and that is a good time to keep boys busy doing things to keep them busy .... I am sure you get the picture. Well, he helped me build the shop, along with many other projects around the house. Obviously I have spent money on all of this, but in some ways it has not been all that much considering what I have been able to realize for my return on investment. Most of my machines cost way less than a plasma tv, that many folks seem to need to have, or boats, ATV's or fancy vacations.

What I do for a living is interesting to say the least. By education and by training I am an engineer. I see that you are a military brat, so you should understand what a "mustang" is. Well I am a mustang engineer. I worked with my hands before I went to school ( while I went to school ) and I still work with my hands developing all types of machines for military applicatons ... enough said.

so that is the long answer

lou
Hi Lou, I have a 17 year old son and this is exactly the reason I have gone as far as I have with my "hobby". My Grandfather was a carpenter who believed that woodworking was more than just a job or a hobby. He felt that it taught patience and humility and the pleasure of making something your self. I hope that I can give those same lessons to my son. And I am an Army Brat but as to the "mustang" reference are you talking about the P-51 or someone who can do whatever is required to get the job done?

[lou sansone]

hi jack

it is my understanding that a mustang was a guy who was enlisted ( not an officer ) and then became an officer. That guy had been on both sides of the fence and usually made the best officer. Doing a little research showed that this seems to be pecular to navy speak.
lou

[Nick Mitchell]

Hi Lou, just found this thread.

I've got a line on an old Timesavers Top V38 (1962 model). It's on exfactory and listed in "very good operating condition" Now I generally don't believe much of what exfactory says but the price is right and I wouldn't mind putting a little money into it.

My question to you is what , besides the contact drum, should i be looking for with this machine when I check it out?

It's a combination head with a 40hp main, 2 hp variable speed feed and the belt is 38"x103" with pneumatic tracking. Manual rise and lower of course.

I was going to pm you but I thought others might be interested in the info as well.

Thanks for your time


as you can see, it shore ain't purdy anymore ;)

http://www.exfactory.com/photos/SW/01068801.JPG

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Lou....I'm an 8 year Navy veteran and your understanding of a "mustanger" is correct! When my youngest son was commissioned as a Navy officer there were about 8 "mustangers" in his class. Both of the Navy Captains who spoke at his commissioning ceremony pointed out the "special respect" given to mustangers! Some of the best officers I dealt with in my 8 years were mustangers!

[lou sansone]

Lou....I'm an 8 year Navy veteran and your understanding of a "mustanger" is correct! When my youngest son was commissioned as a Navy officer there were about 8 "mustangers" in his class. Both of the Navy Captains who spoke at his commissioning ceremony pointed out the "special respect" given to mustangers! Some of the best officers I dealt with in my 8 years were mustangers!

hi ken
well I have worked for the navy for many years and for several of them was a U.S. Navy Diver .... I was one of those "odd" civilians that went to navy dive school and dove side by side with the enlisted navy divers ... the officers didn't know what to do with me..

[lou sansone]

Hi Lou, just found this thread.

I've got a line on an old Timesavers Top V38 (1962 model). It's on exfactory and listed in "very good operating condition" Now I generally don't believe much of what exfactory says but the price is right and I wouldn't mind putting a little money into it.

My question to you is what , besides the contact drum, should i be looking for with this machine when I check it out?

It's a combination head with a 40hp main, 2 hp variable speed feed and the belt is 38"x103" with pneumatic tracking. Manual rise and lower of course.

I was going to pm you but I thought others might be interested in the info as well.

Thanks for your time


as you can see, it shore ain't purdy anymore ;)

http://www.exfactory.com/photos/SW/01068801.JPG


you want to look at the surface of the contact drum for any deep scores or grooves. if they are deep they will effect the finish. You can have the drum reground, but only so much. you should see some spiral grooves on the drum and I believe that they are supposed to be on the order of at least 0.25 deep or deeper. If the drum has been ground, and I would assume with the age of the machine it has been, then you might be out of room for further grinding. my guess would be about 1000 for a new drum.

The conveyor belt is probably shot unless it has been replaced recently. Mine was and I needed a new one made. I found a way to get around timesavers and go directly to the factory that makes their belts and saved about 400 bucks.

The upper idler roller on mine was damaged and ran out of round. check the bearings on it if you can. you can probably jam a pry bar carefully between it and the frame and see if you can get play. That upper roller is at least 1000 also. I was able to rework my roller by some cleaver machine work so I lucked out.

It does depend on how much time the machine actually has on it as far as other things to be worried about. The bed that the conveyor rides in can be hollowed out if the machine has really been worked pretty hard. You will not be able to tell that unless you buy the machine and rip it apart. You might be able to take 3 equally thicknessed blocks of wood and place them on the conveyor right under the contact drum and raise the table till they just touch the drum. you should be able to see if the drum and the table are parallel and if the table is hollowed out in the center.

If you can get them to power up the machine and give it a good listen that will tell you a lot. Take a look at the electricals. I beleive that the 40 hp motor is going to use a NEMA 4 size starter and if that is bad you will need to get new contacts for it. not a big deal, but can get expensive.

the 38 by 103 is a big machine. the smallest ones are 37 by 60 and pretty popular. the next bigger is the 37 by 75 and that is my size and then comes the really big ones with the 103" long belt. the belts are going to cost you between 50 and 100 each so keep that in mind.

you will probably have to dump at least a grand into it no matter what you do. there will be things wrong with a 40 year old machine. but all in all the old timesavers are really very well made. I have had no problems with the pnumatic tracking once it is adjusted properly. the photo eyes are nice but they have problems with accululation of dust.

do you have a sufficient DC for this type of machine ?


hope this helps
lou

[Nick Mitchell]

Lou, many thanks for the informed reply. You've given me a lot of things to check, which I will do.
Dust collection will be adequate, although I wonder how many friends I'll make firing up that 40hp motor. ;)
If I can get it for $2k it might be worth the expected refurbishing costs.
I'm going to try and see it next week, it's not far from me. I'll let you know what I find out