Sliding table saws - Hammer and Mini Max

[Michael Koons]

I'm not totally sure of the protocol here, but starting a new thread. I was the OP who started the PM2000 vs. G0691 discussion. But since that post went so far afield, I decided I'd start a new thread given that I'm changing the subject. I hope that's ok.

Given all the feedback I've gotten, I am now seriously considering upping my budget and getting either the Hammer K3 or the MM SC3W. I'm not 100% set on it yet, but had some questions for those of you who use sliders. A lot of the slider threads on SMC seem to be pretty dated.

My shop is not huge, it's a basement shop that's 16'x26'. I will not be keeping my old TS while having the slider at the same time, so my slider will be my ONLY TS. What do I lose by ditching the traditional TS?

I do a lot of dadoing on my TS and would like to continue that on the slider. I think the slider will help even more for dadoes given the fact it can take panels. I had heard the MM cannot take dado blades, so this could be a concern.

The MM rep has been EXTREMELY responsive and the Hammer people have not even responded to me yet. I'm a bit disappointed in that. The MM person has told me that he has a unit he can ship out in a day. I had heard Hammer takes several months to ship. I'd prefer not to wait until the winter to receive it, but again, I'm not sure given Hammer won't call me back.

Lastly, I'm 45 years old and I'm hoping this is my last TS purchase. I would expect with a high end American style saw to last me forever. Can I expect the same from European slider?

Do people have opinions on sliders in general or these 2 models specifically?

Thanks again for all your help.

Mike

[David Kumm]

Both companies are high end and more than the equivalent of the traditional saw makers. Both the MM guys, Erik and Sam are great to deal with but the Felder guys are good too. Their lack of response is probably a glitch as they are generally helpful. I don't know about the dado capability on the MM. While the longest slider is the best, I am also a fan of the short stroke-30-40" ones unless you do a lot of case work. The short sliders are easy to rip using the fence, the longer ones work better ripping on the slider and then a long one works best. If space is a limitation I would look at the short ones and not worry about giving up any benefits in comparison to the traditional. Talk to each rep about the ease of returning the fence to square as you will be removing it a lot and having to tweak it back to 90 is a total pain. there are also used and demo units to be found. Grizzly makes a short stroke slider as well but I don't put it in the class of the Euro stuff. A used K500 would be a good deal as it has the Hammer internals with the X roll table. Dave

[Ralph Butts]

Michael I would tend to agree with David on the responsiveness issue. I have had the best experience with the folks at Hammer on the west coast. I have also had a good experience with the MM folks. I did kind of get blown off on a J/P question that I never got answered by MM but hey stuff happens and people get busy. I think that you are looking at two offerings that you will ultimately be happy with if you select one of them. I recently purchased an A3 41 J/P back in August and it is scheduled for delivery 1st or 2nd week of October. It is what it is. Disappointed about the delivery time but extremely confident that I purchased the best machine for me and my constraints so the wait is the wait. Hammer has(d) a sale going on and I was looking at K3 perform and a K500 S. I ultimately have not pulled the trigger on the slider for several reasons first of which is that I am contemplating purchasing a new home with a huge existing shop. After the research I did I was heavily leaning toward the new K500 S since it was on sale. However a stumbled upon a lightly used K700 in my area on CL. I gave me pause to pull back on the stick and wait things out a bit. The two Hammer machines you are looking at will support dadoing with the purchase of the option. I currently own a Grizz 623x I like it. I recognize it for what it is and have nothing bad to say about it keeping the previous sentence in mind. I find myself working with more and more full sheets and for that type of work it is a PITA. It does however do dados without issue. I am branching out and finding more ways to make dados to avoid the blade changing evolution. I currently do not have the space to support the larger sliders so this was a good compromise for me. If I would have been presented with a similar deal on a K3 I would have gone that route.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, I'm a very happy Felder CF 741 owner, and wouldn't willingly go back to old school tablesaws. A slider saw will change the way you work. It made me a lot more efficient. It did take a little bit to adjust and figure out the best approaches to each task. In essence you have the ultimate crosscut sled and sliding jig holder built into a really good saw.

One thing that I love about my Felder is the electronics. I'm not positive that Hammer uses the same thing, but the blade brake and softstart are awesome. Makes me smile each time I use it.

You can't pick wrong, both of those companies sell premier products and support it well.

[Stephen Cherry]

I've dealt with the east coast Felder people, and they are generally great. I bought a used K975, and added the scoring option onto a 5 year old machine. The price was the same as the new option (no massive upcharge), and what they gave me was COMPLETE. I did not even need to strip a wire.

If you are getting a format saw, you want to consider a shaper built in. This will allow tenoning, both small and large in no time flat. I've even thought about getting another shaper just to park next to my saw to share the slide. Also molding, doors, etc.

As for the slide, once you try it you will be very impressed. SAFETY, stability, speed. I used my saw to chop up some 3 inch thick boards a few days ago into chair parts. I started with a board about 3 by 15 by 10 feet, (just poplar, nothing exotic) and it was rough chair parts in no time. No muscling the machine, just push as fast as you want to go. I've got a felder rip blade, which is great. Very quiet, just push as fast as you think you want to go.


Plywood- there is no comparison. Get the scoring if your focus is ply or melamine, if you are a solid wood guy, you could just as well skip it. I would rather have the shaper than scoring. Very nice to crosscut dado from the slide

As far as safety goes, when my son was using the saw for his school project, I pointed out that his hand was on the slide, several feet from the blade.

I've also got a tiny inca table saw that I like very much, but thats a different story. I have a slide for that saw also, though.

[Michael Koons]

Thanks for the information Stephen (and everyone else).

Quick question, if I can use a dado, can't I do tenons and grooves with the dado and forego the shaper? I know the shaper can do more, but for these two specific functions, I was hoping the dado would do the job.

[Mike Ruggeri]

I would get the longest slider you can. Maybe it is a personal work-habit thing, but I don't see any negatives about a longer slider while I see various shortcomings with a shorter stroke. With your size shop, I would go with at least an 8 footer as you have plenty of room. I have a small shop and at first thought my slider was too long, but after using it for a while I am glad I have the capacity when needed. I went from a Unisaw to a slider and have grown to love the slider (MM CU300 in my case). I would check with MM about using a dado as their web-site just might not mention it (it doesn't say anything about dado blade capability on my saw but in fact I can run a dado). Both are good companies with good products.

[Michael Koons]

Thanks Mike. Does the long slider get in the way when it's locked in place and I'm doing traditional TS work?

[Stephen Cherry]

Thanks for the information Stephen (and everyone else).

Quick question, if I can use a dado, can't I do tenons and grooves with the dado and forego the shaper? I know the shaper can do more, but for these two specific functions, I was hoping the dado would do the job.

Yes, you can do tenons with a dado. First one side, then the other, then fit it to the mortise using a shoulder plane. With a shaper you can cut two cheeks at the same time, with the spacing between the cutters matched to the mortising tool. One aspect of the hammer machines I think is that they are 30 mm for the saw arbor and the shaper spindle, so a groover could be shared.

8' slide is nice, if you can get it in the basement.

http://davidpbest.com/va/stonehorseshop/tenoningplate_xroll/tenon_cutting.htm

[David Kumm]

Thanks Mike. Does the long slider get in the way when it's locked in place and I'm doing traditional TS work?

Yes it does to some extent and you have to get used to it. That is why I prefer a real long-10 ft or real short slider. My 80" slider is my least favorite to rip with but for two other reasons. Blade guard is attached to the riving knife which makes some fence rips awkward, and because the table is relatively short the crosscut fence needs to come off. You get a short slider if you plan to use the saw in the traditional way most of the time and only crosscut periodically. If you crosscut a lot and do panel work a long slider allows for ripping referencing off the slider and generally the crosscut fence can stay in place. You need a lot of room for a long slider but if you have it and can get it in the shop there are lots of used commercial sliders in the 3000-5000 range that are way way heavier than the Hammer or MM. There are a fair number of used 78-80" sliders of the Felder 700, MM st-4 variety out there but very few used short sliders. The mid size works if you use mainly 60x60 baltic birch but is my least favorite size- although 8' is a close second as it isn't long enough to fit clamps on either end which I think are important with big sheets. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

to fit clamps on either end which I think are important with big sheets. Dave

http://www.kregtool.com/Large-Bench-Klamp-6-Reach-Prodview.html

I have a big felder clamp, which is nice, also, I use one of these kreg clamps on the far end for sheets. Cheap, and works pretty good.

[David Kumm]

http://www.kregtool.com/Large-Bench-Klamp-6-Reach-Prodview.html

I have a big felder clamp, which is nice, also, I use one of these kreg clamps on the far end for sheets. Cheap, and works pretty good.

Look at www.airtightclamps.com (http://www.airtightclamps.com) Dave

[ian maybury]

I've a relatively recently commissioned Hammer K3 Perform panel saw with the 8ft slider and as yet unused scorer. (not sure if the Perform is still sold in the US, it's the version with the longer cabinet under the slider)

It's definitely not in Altendorf or the like territory so far as solidity of build/weight of parts is concerned, but so far I'm very happy.

It needed careful setting up after delivery (the US situation may be better), but proved to (a) be capable of this (it had flat tables and the like), and (b) it's so far held it's adjustment. My take is that it's an accurate and well made machine, but probably not one that you would put in a commercial shop where two guys would horse sheet goods through and abuse it all day.

One limitation is that whether it's the Hammer carbide tipped dado set, or say a traditional Forrest bored to suit the limit (for clearance) is about 7in - with 6in being the only option in the latter. It won't accept an 8in dado set, or at least if fitted it will hit part of the blade tilt hinge as it nears fully raised.

The slider takes a bit of getting used to (it's still new to me), and there's stuff like parallel bars for setting up cuts off the slider that can be useful - but it's already obvious that the slider is a huge step forward. The machine is basically a panel saw, but it's not obviously disadvantaged in any way that I've so far found on small work. Take care when you choose a slider length - the length they specify is the total length of the slider, and not the capacity as I for example thought. i.e. if you want to clamp down an 8ft panel you need a somewhat longer slider to accommodate the clamps. +1 on buying a long slider unless you are very sure you don't need it.

I bought one Felder clamp, it's very heavily built and quite expensive. Many of the FOG (Felder group) guys use the Airtight (?) pneumatic clamps from one of the site members - they seem to work very well with sheet material. I made some rather less fancy DIY slider clamps from large F clamps which also work well (see below) - the T nuts are routed from phenolic. I'm also running an Incra TS LS fence, a DIY rip table and an adapted Incra Mitre 2000 HD, but haven't used the stock items and so can't say how they compare.

The Incra stuff works well and is accurate (i wanted the repeatable positioning capability) but fitting involves some labour. It seems a good match in terms of its level of robustness in comparison to the build of the Hammer.

The saw + spindle combo option seems to be a very good choice with minimal downsides - both in terms of space saving in a small shop compared to having a separate shaper, and in terms of cost. Especially if for any reason a long slider is useful for your shaping work.

ian

241464241465241466241467

[James Baker SD]

I heard some people say when you order a Felder or Hammer and have to wait for it, it's as close to the Christmas morning as a kid you can get as an adult. :-)

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a 20 year old MiniMax slider that has never broken, and this is in a commercial setting. My other equipment is mostly SCMI/MiniMax, And the only part any of them have needed was new dust boots on my SCM 520S.

I have never owned a Felder/Hammer, so I can not comment other than I drove 500 miles to a dealer on a prearranged appointment, and when I got at the scheduled time there no one was there. It was bad for them and great for SCM.

Larry

[George Panagopoulos]

One thing to consider would be the weight of a large slider and how you could get it in a basement shop. Large sliders are typically close to or over 1000lbs. I had a combo machine with an 8.5 ft slider and went back to a traditional table saw as mostly I do furniture, not case work. Quality was not an issue (had a minimax and it was excellent), but preferred a ts and am ok crosscutting with a mitre or sled.

George

[David Kumm]

One thing to consider would be the weight of a large slider and how you could get it in a basement shop. Large sliders are typically close to or over 1000lbs. I had a combo machine with an 8.5 ft slider and went back to a traditional table saw as mostly I do furniture, not case work. Quality was not an issue (had a minimax and it was excellent), but preferred a ts and am ok crosscutting with a mitre or sled.

George

Closer to 2000 lbs. Dave

[David Kumm]

Michael, both Felder and MM users have yahoo groups. Check out www.solowoodworker.com for Charlie Plesums site. He is a MM guy with good practical advice. David Best wrote a handbook that is the Felder Bible for setting up machines. He has a website as well. Dave

[howard s hanger]

I have a K3 with the 48" slider and it's the perfect length for me. I can really only see needing the 78" if you do a lot of case work. I normally cut down boards to a manageable length before it's processed at the J/P. What I really like is the ability to cut a straight ripped edge by using the slider with the rip shoe and the eccentric clamp at the other end. I would redesign the clamp to get away from using the hex bolts since it's a pain to loosen and then tighten the bolts every time you need to move the clamp. A couple of eccentric mini clamps would be a much better solution. I had a Laguna Platinum TS before this and there is no comparison. This thing is a beast and will around longer than I probably will be.

[Rod Sheridan]

I own a Hammer B3 Winner with a 49 inch long sliding table.

It's in a small shop, and I opted for the optional outrigger table which I only install when working with sheet goods or long solid pieces.

I also have scoring on it, dado capability, and a power feeder on a flip up bracket.

The shaper spindle is tiltable, and I opted for the tenon hood/table as well.

The really nice thing about the small sliders is that they have a form factor like a cabinet saw, so they are very comfortable to use when ripping.

The longer sliders can crosscut larger items, however my small slider will crosscut a sheet of plywood, and of course straight line rip a 49" long piece. With a simple jig and an accessory strip from Hammer it will straight line rip an 8' piece.

I can't say enough about how great the Euro sliders are compared to the General 650 saw I owned previously.

Add the sliding table to the tilting spindle shaper and it's incredible.

I suggest that you very carefully list all your needs, both present and future. Options are normally only factory installed, however accessories can be added at any time. Plan wisely and you'll never need another machine. Do not rush this process as you will regret it.

As to Felder/Hammer versus MiniMax, all good products, both great companies. Obviously a 900 series Felder is nicer than a Hammer or MiniMax machine, with a nicer price tag attached. Same of course if you buy SCMI equipment.

As to the wait, well I ordered my B3 and told Hammer that I wanted it in 4 months because I had a General saw and shaper to sell. The saw lasted 3 minutes, the shaper 10, then I had a wood working free time period......LOL..........Out smarted myself there.

You are making the correct decision by heading down the Euro slider path, take your time, choose carefully, once you have the machine you'll wonder why you didn't do it years ago............Rod.

[Michael Koons]

Thank you Rod. Do you do any dadoing on your slider? I'm guessing not since you have the shaper.

If you do, what are your experiences?

[David Kumm]

Thank you Rod. Do you do any dadoing on your slider? I'm guessing not since you have the shaper.

If you do, what are your experiences?

I'm not Rod, but I dado with my Knapp saw shaper so some observations might be proporietary to the saw but some will be relevant enough for you to ask questions when you buy.

My machine allows a dado blade- I use a Forrest- by removing a disk approx 20+ mm thick to make room on the arbor. You remove the throat plate, remove the disk, reoplace it with another thinner one if necessary and put on the dado. My saw has a dust shroud that must also be removed with an 8" dado but not a 6" so you can guess what size I use. The dado requires you to adjust the crosscut fence to compensate. If I did lots of case work I would figure out a combination of shims for the disk to keep the fence reference the same as I hate moving it. You want a reference- a stop or something- that allows you to return it exactly to zero when reinstalling the regular blade. You also want good clamps to hold the ply down along it's entire length so the depth doesn't vary. Going back and forth is a pain so organizing the cuts is important. Every saw is a little different so find out the details of each model. Dave

[doug faist]

I've had a craftsman TS, a tilting table INCA, then an INCA 12" with an Excalibur sliding table added, then a Laguna TSS.

My opinion on sliders has changed completely over the years. I'm now convinced that unless you deal almost exclusively with large sheet goods, you're better off without the slider. It takes up a lot of space, it's expensive and, as mentioned above, can be a real pain to adjust back to 90 degrees as you move the fence on and off the table.

A really nice PM66, Unisaw or the like can be had, used, for about a third of the price of the euro sliders. A well made cross-cut sled will cover precision cut offs and dadoes aren't a problem.

Just one person's opinion but something you might want to consider.

Doug

[Mike Ruggeri]

Mike,

To your question of whether or not the slider gets in the way when locked and using like a traditional saw - my thought is no it doesn't. As Rod does, I generally have the "small" miter guage in place most of the time and only use the larger outrigger table when cutting something where I need the extra support. My large table hangs on the wall in my shop next to the saw when not in use and only takes a minute to put on the saw when needed. If I had more space, I would probably leave the larger table on all the time, but I don't have the luxury.

When I rip, I try to use the sliding table as much as possible. I do this as I find I get great quality rips this way while keeping my hands far from the blade. When a board is too narrow to use the sliding table, I usually slide the miter fence/larger outrigger table away from where I stand (these can slide down the slider so as to move out of the way simply by loosening 2 knobs in case you are not familiar). While I stand a bit more to the side of the saw then I did with my Unisaw, I don't find using the slider like a traditional saw causes any issues. If anything, I find for me it is better as I now have a real riving knife and a decent guard and I probably don't have to lean over as much as I had to with my Unisaw.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thank you Rod. Do you do any dadoing on your slider? I'm guessing not since you have the shaper.

If you do, what are your experiences?

Hi Michael, I use the dado function on my saw as often as I did with a cabinet saw. (I've always had a shaper, just not a tilter/slider like I have now).

I use a 6" FS Tools dado blade on my machine, it works great, the only issue is that I don't have a guard when I dado, however I'm going to add an over arm guard, just like I did when I had a cabinet saw. (Same issue with all cabinet saws, no protection when making non through cuts with standard guards).

The slider is actually safer when dadoing as I can use the clamp to secure pieces to the table and keep my fingers away from the blade..........Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

It takes up a lot of space, it's expensive and, as mentioned above, can be a real pain to adjust back to 90 degrees as you move the fence on and off the table.



Doug

???

Doug, my outrigger table comes off the machine in about 20 seconds with no tools, and goes back on in the same manner.

My crosscut fence has 90 degree stops front and rear position, and the precision mitre system which uses a locking pin for common angles.

No adjustment required at all............Regards, Rod.

[ian maybury]

Just be aware that if you go for a Hammer K3 slider that you need to specify if you want it to be fitted with the dado set up. Which costs a bit extra. As David's Knapp there's a removable spacer on the saw spindle with the dado prepped version. You leave it in place when running with a saw blade, and remove it to make room for the dado cutter.

It's not economically retro-fittable as the stock saw is fitted with a solid spindle.

It's maybe also worth saying that the scoring option has to be specified too. So far as i know there's two versions - one as mine that is driven by a belt from the saw spindle and which runs as long as the saw spindle is running, and another with a separate motor on a separate start/stop button...

ian

[Jeff Monson]

I prefer my slider for dado and rabbet operations, I use a short crosscut fence for dado's, it works great and is very safe. I'd also want a longer slider if you can, nothing beats loading up a sheetgood and cutting it to specs in a matter of minutes. Given your shop dimensions, I see no problem with an 8' slider. I use a Forrest dado on my Felder and it cuts wonderful. I'd also recemmond an outrigger with your purchase, I know its an option on the Hammer saws, but its really nice to have for sheetgoods, they come off easily giving the machine a pretty small footprint when you dont use it. The only thing I dont like about my slider in comparison to the PM2000 I used to own, is ripping solid stock, I dont get as accurate of rips with my slider as my Powermatic. It may be operator error as ripping on the right side of the saw blade is still a little awkward for me on a slider. The "leg" that sticks out for the longer slider does get in ones way when ripping.

I'd highly recemmond giving the Hammer guys a call, I deal with Fergus on the west coast, nothing but super service from them.

[Ray Newman]

About two years ago, I seriously considered a K-3. I ultimately “opted out” primarily due to the amount of space that the slider would consume in my shop (approximately 24’X18’), plus a medical issue.

You may have already done the following or thought about it -- make a large scale drawing of your shop, and cut outs for the equipment, cabinets/benches, etc. Then consult the makers’ web sites for the footprints of the saws under consideration and make the appropriate cut outs. You might be surprised as to the floor space needed for these saws.

Personal experience speaking: I run a 25 year-old Uni-saw. At one time I installed an Excalibur slider (or was it an Exaktor?) slider. Took it off as it consumed just too much space. Instead, a Fe$tool circular saw and track breaks down sheet goods. A well constructed dado jig and a router just might serve you just as well as a TS and dado blade set.

I would also ask both makers if they know of any local shops with their saws. Nothing beats an on-site visit to view the machine and talk to the operator(s). I would also read through the on-line owner’s and set-up manuals.

[Erik Loza]

Hi everyone, Hi Mike,

I'm going to keep it short and sweet and jump back out of this discussion for obvious reasons. Just wanted to clarify a few points and give a quick explanation. No, the SC3W does not dado. If that's a "must", the machine to look at is the SC4 Elite, which is available in both 5.5' and 8.5' lengths. The whole "dado or not"-thing, in regards to our saws, is dictated by the slice of the pie a given machine occupies in the US market. As we all probably know, dado is a US-only thing. What Italy does is look at the percentage of sales of a given machine in the US Domestic Market, versus the rest of the globe, and then decide if it is worth it to retool the production line for a dado saw group for that machine. For example, the very popular CU300 combo machine has almost an identical saw group to the SC3W, but the US sells CU300's at a ratio of about 5X-6X to the SC3W. This would mirror my personal sales experience. I do sell quite a few SC3W's each year but most of them seem are going to contractors and shops (the SC3 was "the" small slider in the industry for a long time, so many pro's either owned or worked with it and I get calls to the effect of "I want one again"...) and these shops more commonly are doing Euro-style frameless cabinets, so dado irrrelevant. Statistically, I have more home guys buying 8.5' sliders than 5.5', so the factory does make a dado saw group for those. Anyhow, just those quick comments and I'm outta' here!

Thanks,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jim Becker]

I"ve owned a MiniMax slider for a number of years. (There's even a long thread here with many pictures of when I brought it home and assembled it) The company hasn't disappointed me with any of the three machines of theirs I own.

[Todd Brewer]

I've a relatively recently commissioned Hammer K3 Perform panel saw with the 8ft slider and as yet unused scorer. (not sure if the Perform is still sold in the US, it's the version with the longer cabinet under the slider) ...snip...

...Snip... Take care when you choose a slider length - the length they specify is the total length of the slider, and not the capacity as I for example thought. i.e. if you want to clamp down an 8ft panel you need a somewhat longer slider to accommodate the clamps. +1 on buying a long slider unless you are very sure you don't need it.

... snip... I'm also running an Incra TS LS fence, ...snip...

... snip... The Incra stuff works well and is accurate (i wanted the repeatable positioning capability) but fitting involves some labour. It seems a good match in terms of its level of robustness in comparison to the build of the Hammer. ...snip...

ian

241464241465241466241467

Ian, I can't express how thrilled I am to see that you fitted an Incra fence to the Hammer! I have an Incra fence on my Grizzly and just can't imagine having a table saw of any kind without one!

Best I can tell, Hammer in the US only offers up to an 80" model, although they are introducing the perform with a cutting length of 126" which is way too big for me. Seems 96" (8') would be ideal. Trying to decide between 48" and 80", the perform is too big. Will also investigate Mini Max, they have an 8.5' model.

[Todd Brewer]

I own a Hammer B3 Winner with a 49 inch long sliding table.

It's in a small shop, and I opted for the optional outrigger table which I only install when working with sheet goods or long solid pieces.

I also have scoring on it, dado capability, and a power feeder on a flip up bracket. ...snip...

The really nice thing about the small sliders is that they have a form factor like a cabinet saw, so they are very comfortable to use when ripping.

The longer sliders can crosscut larger items, however my small slider will crosscut a sheet of plywood, and of course straight line rip a 49" long piece. With a simple jig and an accessory strip from Hammer it will straight line rip an 8' piece. ...snip...



Rod,
I need to contact Hammer, adding options might not be cost effective vs. buying the next size up (talking K3). Thinking about the 48 x 48 K3 which is about $1K less than the 79 x 48, but would want to add outrigger and maybe scoring unit on the 48 x 48. That may push the price up near the 79 x 48 which includes outrigger and scoring unit.

Footprint is what concerns me, nice to know removing the outrigger can make the larger saw more tolerable and it re-installs easily and maintains its accuracy.

I think cross cutting plywood is good enough for me. I would like the ability to straight line rip up to 8'. Please tell me more about the jig and optional accessory strip from Hammer. A 79" unit seems odd, 96" or there abouts makes more sense.

Todd

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Todd, please watch the video below, it has the straight line ripping information you're looking for.

Regards, Rod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgellk8U85w

[ian maybury]

Hi Todd. It's still fairly early days for me with the K3 saw, but it's so far working out just fine - it's a whole new world of precision compared to the previous Robland.

The Incra fence was a little accidental, in that i bought it before deciding to go for the K3 - by all accounts the K3 fence is a good job too. That said the point was always to gain the positioning capability it delivers. I was a little cautious about how robust it (the Incra) might prove to be (especially how well it might hold the toe alignment of a thou or two over the blade diameter), but in practice it's after several months and some use with large sheets of ply and the like stayed put.

I went for the DIY rip table to ease the fitting of the Incra - it might be more awkward with the stock sheet metal table extensions. It seems that getting the support rails really well aligned in all planes is key to getting good accuracy and repeatability with it.

Slider use is still a learning curve for me - every job needs thinking through. It gives such great safety, precision and control though.

The long 8ft slider and full length cross cut fence take up a lot of floor space. The big advantage i seem to be finding (apart from basic capacity) is as the guys mentioned before that you can leave several set ups in situ without needing to take the fence on and off all the time. For example I have an Incra Mitre fence mounted at the infeed end for short pieces, and the cross cut fence at the other. This leaves space in the middle for a pair of DIY parallel bars mounted at right angles off the slider side slot for setting up wider rip cuts that are still not wide enough to align off the cross cut fence off the slider - their bases (they are built off lengths of aluminium extrusion) also double as extra support arms (flush with the top surface of the table) for larger pieces of sheet material.

The only real issue that i've run into is that the as delivered set up on my saw was all over the place - but it seems quite likely that this is either not typical or that Felder US are acting as a second line of defence in this regard (by doing a pre delivery set up) as i doubt the US market would tolerate this. The good news is that the saw was capable of being dialled in accurately, and seems to be holding its settings.

It might if you were going to be working the saw very hard and routinely handling very heavy work be worth thinking of one of the higher spec heavier duty models in the Felder line, but all in all the K3 seems so far to be a good product...

ian

[Todd Brewer]

Rod,

Thanks for the link. Pleased to know I can rip longer stock. Don't do it often but would like the capability.

Ian,

I absolutely love my Incra fence, no eye-balling or paralax, it snaps to the nearest 1/32". Wouldn't buy a table saw that couldn't accept an Incra fence. Happy to hear you could make it work. Thanks! Not sure what you mean by DIY rip table, but knowing you made it work is promising. I'm sure I can make something work.

I just ordered Ron Paulk's blueprints for his work bench and cross cut setup. Not that I couldn't design my own but for such a low price why re-invent the wheel? I don't do a lot of cabinetry work. Starting to build cabinets for the shop and garage, after that who knows? Comments on the Paulk type setup vs. buying a slider? The slider is mucho dinero compared to the track saw route. I already own a track saw so that cost is already accounted for.

[ian maybury]

There's some build photos for the DIY rip table here, but you may need to register to get access: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/photos/album/558382626/pic/list

ian

[Kelby Van Patten]

They're all great saws. Last year I considered these, and I ended up with a Laguna slider. I ruled out the MM because of the lack of dado capability. The Hammer was nice, but the Laguna was beefier, and I also really liked the fact that there is an additional set of power switches in the handle of the sliding table, which is very convenient when you are trying to cross-cut a full sheet of plywood and it's a pain in the neck to climb under the material to reach the switch. Laguna has come out with a new model since then, and I don't know to what extent the same feature is on those. Good luck whichever way you go.

[Chris Fournier]

I researched the MM vs Felder combo machine thingy a few years back and bough the MM. It was in my opinion a fundamentally a better machine - longer tables and heavier castings. Felder had some neat features but they were typically accessories and very expensive. The need for a moveable auxilliary table to give me the specs of a MM was a put off for me. I was able to get the most machine for the least $$$ by going with MM. I have owned SCM equipment for over 20 years and it has been a top notch performer in my shop. This being said you will enjoy either machine I'm sure.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I researched the MM vs Felder combo machine thingy a few years back and bough the MM. It was in my opinion a fundamentally a better machine - longer tables and heavier castings. Felder had some neat features but they were typically accessories and very expensive. The need for a moveable auxilliary table to give me the specs of a MM was a put off for me. I was able to get the most machine for the least $$$ by going with MM. I have owned SCM equipment for over 20 years and it has been a top notch performer in my shop. This being said you will enjoy either machine I'm sure.

Just as a counter point, I went through the same process, and chose Felder. I thought it was a better built machine, and I still do. It was more $, but at the time that was not that big of a deal. I couldn't be happier with the machine, and would highly recommend one. The Felder approach is VERY open to customization. For example, somebody mentioned the switch on the end of the slider on a Laguna. Felder of course does that too.

Honestly any of these machines are awesome, and us owners will defend our own choices. Try to compare apples to apples though. A stripped down Felder will have less bells and whistles than a fully loaded MM or whatever. The inverse will also apply.